Calling Deer Hunters

NoNameRanger

How do people view the deer hunting seasons in Ireland at the moment?
How would you feel about the female season being extended to the end of March?

Take a look at the british closed seasons.
http://www.bds.org.uk/close_seasons_for_deer.html

Do you think that shortening the stag season for the past two seasons has made a difference to:
a) The number of females shot at the end of the season?
b) The amount of hunting being done in January and February?

How would you feel about farmers and/or their nominees being allowed to shoot deer all year round to prevent damage without the Section 42 process?

How would you feel about it being mandatory for a person to have HCAP or BDS level 1 before being granted a deer licence?

Just questions, no there is not anything in the pipe line in relation to any of these question that i know of. But they are all possibilities.:)

fathersymes

Maybe its just an impression but there seems to be little interest in hind stalking here, the emphasis is all about trophys. Personally I enjoy the day out and the stalk and the head is irrelevent.

The lack of a coherent deer management policy is resulting in large numbers of deer and lack of trophy heads in many areas.

If buck rabbits had horns?!

tiny-nioclas

i do think that the female season should go on for another two weeks anyway, im not sure if the shortening of the stag season has made a difference to be honest, this is my first year stalking on my own, and il be at it till i cant walk anymore i reckon.

i wouldnt agree with farmers being able to shoot without a section 42 all year, id say just make a section 42 more easy to aquire would be a better option so their wouldnt be a free for all type of thing going on,

my opinion on the mandatory hcap would be to maybe to have a beginner coarse for people to do before, something like a provisional licence? hcap would be hard for someone to pass if they havent shot much before?

good debate though, it'l be interesting to see other peoples opinions..

BryanL

my opinion on the mandatory hcap would be to maybe to have a beginner coarse for people to do before, something like a provisional licence

i would think that if something like that happens that it should be done in such a way as the money for the course would be paid into groups supporting hunting,so the money is ploughed back into the sport and it's promotion to the general public.

Bryan

jwshooter

thats all fine to talk about culling hinds all year round ,how many will kill the calf first shot, on first in november and through dec or will not take the shot. let alone in july aug or through the rest of the year .the shorting of the stag season has made no difference to the true hunters draging hinds n calfs off the hill ,no glory, pictures or trophys .its just sometings we love to do .i think its a personal thing .as far as the uk, DMQ level one ,,i done it with you a long long time ago ,coillte will not recognize it form a irish citizen but will recognize, the one from the scotish stalker that done it with us that week ...i also went and done the DMQ level two . but i can hunt in europe with it .as the h cap is not recognized , thats if you ever get your cert back .i done mine last summer and still no cert .section 42 s . should be re worded to get out of the bed earlyer

NoNameRanger

These are my views and not NPWS policy.
Firstly i don't believe anybody should be shooting deer unless qualified, be that HCAP or DMQ(BDS) basically learn the material and be able to put holes in paper instead of practicing on live animals, its alot better to have made your mistakes on paper.

I have nothing against trophy hunting but you must then manage the herd for trophy heads and not just shoot any big stag or buck that steps out. You must also control your females, because the ratio of females to males will effect the quality of trophy animals produced.

Trouble with deer hunting in Ireland is that most people shooting deer know little or nothing about deer management, they simply shoot deer. Those that do know what they are doing can only do so much and it's usually spoiled by the efforts of the others.

I think the key to deer management in Ireland is education.
If people are taught deer managent and all the skills nesscessary at the begining then i believe they are far more likely to continue and do things right. Start as you mean to continue:)

There is an attitude among alot of deer hunters that if they don't shoot the females that there will be alot more males to shoot and this is exactly what they want. The more the merrier.:rolleyes: What they don't get is that the more competition there is among stags for females the bigger the trophies. Most have no idea how many deer are in their area. Then when the farmer that is losing his crops freaks out they are nowhere to be seen or they blame somebody else.

Deer are out of control in Ireland in general, they are now present in every county. Roughly 18,000 shot last year, over 8,000 of those were in Co. Wicklow. We have less than 4,000 hunters in the country. To keep a population steady you need to be culling a minimum of 20% of the herd. We are not, the population is growing steadily. Supposing 18,000 was 20% of the herd, the deer population in Ireland would stand at about 90,000 animals. So lets say we have 90,000 deer in the country( i think we have alot more)If it is growing by say a conservative figure of 5% per year. Next year we will have 94,500 after that 99,225 after that 104,186. Compound interest!
We are not noticing the increases in density so much at the moment but what is very noticeable is that deer are being found in places they have never been, they are expanding their range and before long we will reach saturation point.
Something needs to be done.

So what do we do? Blame who you like, coillte, NPWS, Deer Societies, Lazy hunters, uneducated hunters. We've got a problem and a rapidly growing one!

Trojan911

Interesting.

I have a friend who is quite well known in the Irish Deer Hunting Society & is a deer shooter himself who thinks the season is to long. His main moan at the moment is that females who are shot now may be heavily pregnant. Not being a deer hunter myself I wouldn't be able to comment.

Is he right?

NoNameRanger

Trojan911 wrote: »

Interesting.

I have a friend who is quite well known in the Irish Deer Hunting Society & is a deer shooter himself who thinks the season is to long. His main moan at the moment is that females who are shot now may be heavily pregnant. Not being a deer hunter myself I wouldn't be able to comment.

Is he right?

Yes he is right, they are pregnant.
This is a very common excuse for not shooting females. So question is when do you shoot them? When is the right time? Young are born at he end of May-early July and are dependant on the female right up to December when she stops feeding milk, but even if orphaned at this stage the calf is unlikely to survive to spring. The female is also very noticably pregnant from the first week in December and has been pregnant most likely since late October.
So when does she become too heavily pregnant. Some people say after christmas, some say after the end of January. I say its a load of bullsh1t. The objective is to control deer numbers by culling females and to do it in the most humane way possible.
I would be alot more concerned about leaving a calf orphaned to starve to death in November or December than killing an unborn calf in the womb in February, March or April.
I do not agree with shooting females when there is a risk of leaving a newly born calf to starve in cover nearby. But i would have no problem with shooting the calves from the previous year throughout the summer months.

I believe there is alot of scope for extending the deer season and the only thing that should be considered is the possibilty of orphaning calves when setting the season. I think there could also be a new season for 1 year calves over the summer months and the stags could start alot earlier, easily the 1st of August, so what if they're in velvet!

meathstevie

I don't shoot deer myself but I'm looking into getting started sooner rather than later and to be honest I find the discussion about when to shoot females fairly interesting. Personally I'd be of the opinion that you should take the opportunity to shoot the calf first and the doe/hind second if you still have a chance. As for stags I suppose old & passed their prime followed by young lads and finally stags in their prime. This to me seems like the most common sense thing to do if you want to keep and numbers and quality of population in mind.

cavan shooter

I am not a deer shooter but agree totally that education and management is key. I worry when ye say that deer maybe out of control I have posted before about fellas trying to shoot deer with in appropriate calibers. If action/plans arent put into place this will only continue

yank_in_eire

I haven't had the pleasure of hunting deer in this country yet, but I can sympathise with the general lack of understanding about managing the species.
Back home the whitetails breed so prolifically that even with much more relaxed firearms laws and many people out shooting deer the herds their numbers are still exploding.
Culling deer becomes a lot more attractive option when there are so many that they are starving in Mr. and Mrs. Average's back garden. Hunters in my home state are encouraged to cull does from September to February by being able to buy extra tags cheaply at gun shops, petrol stations and tackle shops.

And as to the whole stags/hinds issue, may I add my .02 and say that I prefer the taste of females - stags can be very musky - especially around the rut.

ivanthehunter

Extend the season;)
A educational course with an exam of deer management skills and a proficiency test with a suitable firearm would be a good idea..:cool:

But knowing the Irish and their love of cash, it wont be long before a small firearms skill test for a suitable weapon turns into a fiasco with tests costing hundreds of euros. It would not beyond belief to see the Greens or someone else jumping on the band wagon.. soon the tax man would get involved and soon you require a skills tests for every caliber.. just look at the driving licenses, you need to sit a test to drive a car with a trailer!! In theory you would think that a driver of a artic lorry should be aloud to drive any smaller car or truck but alas thats not allowed... this would be a nightmare..

A deer management skills course should be carried out by gun shops and clubs and the hunting fraternity should be self regulating and non-profit based. please avoid comparisons to the GAA:mad:

Be careful what wish for,, the tax man might be wishing for the same as some 6% of the population are involved in hunting...

Sparks

A test for driving with a trailer? Good grief, what on earth could have prompted that?!?!

tiny-nioclas

i must definately do the HCAP, does the coarse just test you or do you get taught anything on the day? im going to definately join the irish deer society this week, i presume they organise events and training do they? the main thing i feel about deer hunters in my area is that they arent willing to help or show a newbie the ropes for fear we take their shooting grounds etc,i found it pretty hard to get into it on my own, only from watching a few deer hunting dvds and some great websites online i would have been piddling in the wind? with the amount of deer that need to be culled people should be more welcomed into the job

John Griffin

Ivan how is 4,000 deer hunters 6% of the population?:D
Tax? Driving licences? How does your head work?;):)

Deer are going to be a major problem in the near future and changes need to be made in the right direction ASAP. Deer hunters need to stop thinking of hinds like they think of hen pheasants!
I'm all for compulsory education in deer management! Bring it on!:)

ivanthehunter

Sparks wrote: »

A test for driving with a trailer? Good grief, what on earth could have prompted that?!?!

Who spilt the coke all over the street:D
ok i get it.............................................
Dont go hunting in the snow!!



Griff i think i might have read 6% for the uk.. do you know what % of the irish population is involved in hunting? Anyone?

BryanL

the F.A.C.E. europe website gives the % of the Irish population who are hunters as 6.7%. the highest % of any European country.
but yet we seem to have a tiny voice
Bryan

jwshooter

NoNameRanger wrote: »

These are my views and not NPWS policy.
Firstly i don't believe anybody should be shooting deer unless qualified, be that HCAP or DMQ(BDS) basically learn the material and be able to put holes in paper instead of practicing on live animals, its alot better to have made your mistakes on paper.

I have nothing against trophy hunting but you must then manage the herd for trophy heads and not just shoot any big stag or buck that steps out. You must also control your females, because the ratio of females to males will effect the quality of trophy animals produced.

Trouble with deer hunting in Ireland is that most people shooting deer know little or nothing about deer management, they simply shoot deer. Those that do know what they are doing can only do so much and it's usually spoiled by the efforts of the others.

I think the key to deer management in Ireland is education.
If people are taught deer managent and all the skills nesscessary at the begining then i believe they are far more likely to continue and do things right. Start as you mean to continue:)

There is an attitude among alot of deer hunters that if they don't shoot the females that there will be alot more males to shoot and this is exactly what they want. The more the merrier.:rolleyes: What they don't get is that the more competition there is among stags for females the bigger the trophies. Most have no idea how many deer are in their area. Then when the farmer that is losing his crops freaks out they are nowhere to be seen or they blame somebody else.

Deer are out of control in Ireland in general, they are now present in every county. Roughly 18,000 shot last year, over 8,000 of those were in Co. Wicklow. We have less than 4,000 hunters in the country. To keep a population steady you need to be culling a minimum of 20% of the herd. We are not, the population is growing steadily. Supposing 18,000 was 20% of the herd, the deer population in Ireland would stand at about 90,000 animals. So lets say we have 90,000 deer in the country( i think we have alot more)If it is growing by say a conservative figure of 5% per year. Next year we will have 94,500 after that 99,225 after that 104,186. Compound interest!
We are not noticing the increases in density so much at the moment but what is very noticeable is that deer are being found in places they have never been, they are expanding their range and before long we will reach saturation point.
Something needs to be done.

So what do we do? Blame who you like, coillte, NPWS, Deer Societies, Lazy hunters, uneducated hunters. We've got a problem and a rapidly growing one!

I thought you sed a while back the rangers do not ride horses any more, but thats a high one your on at the moment ,just make sure your not shot out of the saddle my friend ,,ps i just read paul wood in the digest one man that knows what he is talk in about

meathstevie

As John Griffin and NoName most likely know we have it very easy over here getting into hunting. The only thing we have to do is get land permission and convince a couple of cops of our good intentions with a firearm. If you were doing this in France, Germany, Belgium,... you'd have to pass an examination on subjects like : legislation, firearms safety and maintenance, game knowledge including behaviour, diseases, herd management, carcass dressing and food safety etc etc. This is not only for deer but also for small game. After you struggle through that you get to do a practical shooting test with shotgun and rifle, this isn't only busting a few clays and hitting a target, it includes safety as well as maintenance. One of the tests in the Flanders region of Belgium for example is climbing up on a high seat with a loaded rifle, all the time keeping safety principles in mind, and hitting a target 100m away with a killing shot. If you didn't spot the cardboard cut out of the fisherman sitting in the reeds at a pond between you and the target though luck, back to square one. The first time pass rate for aspiring hunters in Flanders is way below 50%. Just to give you an idea...;)

cavan shooter

I hear what your saying and agree, however I believe that to obtain a firearm cert a compulosry profficiency course should be undertaken. I did them in england, I did one with the NARGC, it's not just safety there are other areas that could be covered such as maintenance, security (vehicle and house),

Open to debate on it

John Griffin

meathstevie wrote: »

As John Griffin and NoName most likely know we have it very easy over here getting into hunting. The only thing we have to do is get land permission and convince a couple of cops of our good intentions with a firearm. If you were doing this in France, Germany, Belgium,... you'd have to pass an examination on subjects like : legislation, firearms safety and maintenance, game knowledge including behaviour, diseases, herd management, carcass dressing and food safety etc etc. This is not only for deer but also for small game. After you struggle through that you get to do a practical shooting test with shotgun and rifle, this isn't only busting a few clays and hitting a target, it includes safety as well as maintenance. One of the tests in the Flanders region of Belgium for example is climbing up on a high seat with a loaded rifle, all the time keeping safety principles in mind, and hitting a target 100m away with a killing shot. If you didn't spot the cardboard cut out of the fisherman sitting in the reeds at a pond between you and the target though luck, back to square one. The first time pass rate for aspiring hunters in Flanders is way below 50%. Just to give you an idea...;)

I hunt in Germany alot, I must say i really admire the way hunting is done and regulated on the continent. It's unbelievable how well they manage their game and how they stick to the rules and laws. They can't believe the way it works over here, they think we're crazy!

Tackleberry.

what I know of deer management I’ve learned from the HCAP Manuel which is a good read and even some good DVD’s and yes its the right way to go but honestly that works on estates not on a few fields that you happen to have permission to shoot on. therefore management means noting to many shooters when you hear the buck roaring in the rut, everyone wants a head on the wall if they shoot deer and you know if he's a good head he'll be shot by someone else if not by you because where you shoot it isn’t managed therefore the faith of any good buck/stag is sealed management will in my opinion never happen on private lands mainly cause of competition between shooters, also framers don’t want any deer on there land at all and will put any stalker under pressure to shoot any amount of deer on there lands regardless of your management intentions, do you want to fall out with the farmer are you strong minded enough to stick with your plan? I know framers that are glad to see a lamp scan the field, that’s what you’re up against
Question to the Rangers reading this Quote you say that “deer are out of control” I ask is this why so many lamps are allowed to scan fields unchallenged every night (keep numbers down)?

cavan shooter

Tackleberry. wrote: »

Question to the Rangers reading this Quote you say that “deer are out of control” I ask is this why so many lamps are allowed to scan fields unchallenged every night (keep numbers down)?

Because the majority are legitimately looking for foxes, and the use of lamp and rifle to control fox predation is a legally recognised method of fox control

Deer Hunter DL

we have a lamp problem around my local area too and even worse some of them are only using .22 hornets and the like, but how do you stop it the countryside is a very big place to patrol and if someone is stopped out lamping at night their just going to say "its foxes we`re shooting" very hard to catch them in the act

cavan shooter

Deer Hunter DL wrote: »

we have a lamp problem around my local area too and even worse some of them are only using .22 hornets and the like, but how do you stop it the countryside is a very big place to patrol and if someone is stopped out lamping at night their just going to say "its foxes we`re shooting" very hard to catch them in the act

you make it sound that anyone out after foxes is actually illeagally killing deer. I agree that it is sometimes ued as a cover. I lamp a lot and have seen deer and I am sure there are fellas that would shoot them. Do you not need a license to sell on the venison?? traceability etc

ivanthehunter

meathstevie wrote: »

As John Griffin and NoName most likely know we have it very easy over here getting into hunting. The only thing we have to do is get land permission and convince a couple of cops of our good intentions with a firearm. If you were doing this in France, Germany, Belgium,... you'd have to pass an examination on subjects like : legislation, firearms safety and maintenance, game knowledge including behaviour, diseases, herd management, carcass dressing and food safety etc etc. This is not only for deer but also for small game. After you struggle through that you get to do a practical shooting test with shotgun and rifle, this isn't only busting a few clays and hitting a target, it includes safety as well as maintenance. One of the tests in the Flanders region of Belgium for example is climbing up on a high seat with a loaded rifle, all the time keeping safety principles in mind, and hitting a target 100m away with a killing shot. If you didn't spot the cardboard cut out of the fisherman sitting in the reeds at a pond between you and the target though luck, back to square one. The first time pass rate for aspiring hunters in Flanders is way below 50%. Just to give you an idea...;)

In the uk you can buy a 12 lbft air rifle once your over 18 years old and in spain you can but an 18 lbft air rifle once your over 14 years old and you swear to declare it to the town hall..

Deer Hunter DL

cavan shooter wrote: »

you make it sound that anyone out after foxes is actually illeagally killing deer. I agree that it is sometimes ued as a cover. I lamp a lot and have seen deer and I am sure there are fellas that would shoot them. Do you not need a license to sell on the venison?? traceability etc

no no i`m not saying everyone that is lamping foxes is shooting deer , i do alot of lamping foxes myself and like your self see plenty of deer when we`re out too

Sikamick

NoNameRanger wrote: »

How do people view the deer hunting seasons in Ireland at the moment?
How would you feel about the female season being extended to the end of March?

Take a look at the british closed seasons.
http://www.bds.org.uk/close_seasons_for_deer.html
_________________________________________________________________

How would you feel about it being mandatory for a person to have HCAP or BDS level 1 before being granted a deer licence?

_________________________________________________________________

Most certainly not, I would totally disagree with the HCAP being made mandatory.

There was a large number of deer stalkers paid their money for the Irish Deer Society Deer Management course and were of the belief that they were certified. But as I have stated in another thread it is not worth the paper it is printed on.

HCAP was brought in by Coillte for insurance purposes for people that have lettings taken from them.

The Irish Deer Society course was there first and should be recognized by the Deer Alliance.

Question to NoNameRanger is HCAP recognised in the UK or BDS level 1 recognised here?

meathstevie

Ivan, one thing I forgot to mention is that a hunting licence and a firearms licence are two completely different things in most continental countries.

NoNameRanger

Tackleberry. wrote: »

what I know of deer management I’ve learned from the HCAP Manuel which is a good read and even some good DVD’s and yes its the right way to go but honestly that works on estates not on a few fields that you happen to have permission to shoot on. therefore management means noting to many shooters when you hear the buck roaring in the rut, everyone wants a head on the wall if they shoot deer and you know if he's a good head he'll be shot by someone else if not by you because where you shoot it isn’t managed therefore the faith of any good buck/stag is sealed management will in my opinion never happen on private lands mainly cause of competition between shooters, also framers don’t want any deer on there land at all and will put any stalker under pressure to shoot any amount of deer on there lands regardless of your management intentions, do you want to fall out with the farmer are you strong minded enough to stick with your plan? I know framers that are glad to see a lamp scan the field, that’s what you’re up against
Question to the Rangers reading this Quote you say that “deer are out of control” I ask is this why so many lamps are allowed to scan fields unchallenged every night (keep numbers down)?

It is the same in many parts of Europe where hunters hunt on the land of farmers, but the thing is they are a type of co-op. They work together, make agreements on how they will manage the deer together. They know that a buck that'll make a fine trophy someday won't be shot by the neighbouring hunter until the time is right. They must keep every head they shoot and bring it to a show at the end of the year and show what they have produced from their area. If they shoot bucks that shouldn't have been shot they will be told. They also face penalties if the farmers crops are damaged, they pay for the damage. A good incentive to keep the population under control!

It is the very thing that you describe that has our fallow deer population producing so few trophy heads, they just never get to reach that age. Somebody sees a good buck and flatten him straight away incase someone else gets him first. It's an attitude that needs to change and is one that people shouldn't give into. Talk to the lads hunting the areas around you and come to a consensus on how ye could manage the deer as a group and work together to control poaching.

Rangers are not ignoring lamping, there are always people being caught, it takes a huge amount of work to catch these people but they are being caught every year. I think when people are caught it should be reported in the Shooting Digest once they have been convicited. Name and shame! There's only about 70 rangers in the country, in recent years they have been loaded with so much other work that they are no longer allowed as much time to chase poachers and they can only work 39hrs per week. All hunters that have permission to hunt on lands can also patrol those lands and they have powers under the wildlife act for those lands.

cavan shooter wrote: »

Do you not need a license to sell on the venison?? traceability etc

Somebody in the transaction must have a gamedealers licence, either the hunter or the buyer. There are alot of regulations covered by the Dept of Ag in relation to sale and processing of venision.

Sikamick wrote: »

NoNameRanger wrote: »

How do people view the deer hunting seasons in Ireland at the moment?
How would you feel about the female season being extended to the end of March?

Take a look at the british closed seasons.
http://www.bds.org.uk/close_seasons_for_deer.html
_________________________________________________________________

How would you feel about it being mandatory for a person to have HCAP or BDS level 1 before being granted a deer licence?

_________________________________________________________________

Most certainly not, I would totally disagree with the HCAP being made mandatory.

There was a large number of deer stalkers paid their money for the Irish Deer Society Deer Management course and were of the belief that they were certified. But as I have stated in another thread it is not worth the paper it is printed on.

HCAP was brought in by Coillte for insurance purposes for people that have lettings taken from them.

The Irish Deer Society course was there first and should be recognized by the Deer Alliance.

Question to NoNameRanger is HCAP recognised in the UK or BDS level 1 recognised here?

We both know the answer to that Mick. No!
Coillte do not recognise BDS for Irish lease holders, not 100% why not, i guess it is to do with it not covering Irish law and Coillte policy.
You are right, I don't think HCAP was designed totally for the welfare of deer and deer management.
I'm sure you'd agree that things are not right at the moment. I mean, anybody can get a deer licence, they need never have seen a deer before. They get a fullbore rifle because they have a deer hunting licence and off they go to shoot deer, no questions asked.
Surely this is not right, it's not fair to the deer and also not fair on the other hunters and members of the public that this person may encounter.
Would you agree to the principle of HCAP, BDS or a similar certified qualification to attain a deer licence?

bunny shooter

NoNameRanger wrote: »

Would you agree to the principle of HCAP, BDS or a similar certified qualification to attain a deer licence?

Of course, as far as I'm concerned. Run by people such as yourself may be the way to go ?

jwshooter

NoNameRanger wrote: »

It is the same in many parts of Europe where hunters hunt on the land of farmers, but the thing is they are a type of co-op. They work together, make agreements on how they will manage the deer together. They know that a buck that'll make a fine trophy someday won't be shot by the neighbouring hunter until the time is right. They must keep every head they shoot and bring it to a show at the end of the year and show what they have produced from their area. If they shoot bucks that shouldn't have been shot they will be told. They also face penalties if the farmers crops are damaged, they pay for the damage. A good incentive to keep the population under control!

It is the very thing that you describe that has our fallow deer population producing so few trophy heads, they just never get to reach that age. Somebody sees a good buck and flatten him straight away incase someone else gets him first. It's an attitude that needs to change and is one that people shouldn't give into. Talk to the lads hunting the areas around you and come to a consensus on how ye could manage the deer as a group and work together to control poaching.

Rangers are not ignoring lamping, there are always people being caught, it takes a huge amount of work to catch these people but they are being caught every year. I think when people are caught it should be reported in the Shooting Digest once they have been convicited. Name and shame! There's only about 70 rangers in the country, in recent years they have been loaded with so much other work that they are no longer allowed as much time to chase poachers and they can only work 39hrs per week. All hunters that have permission to hunt on lands can also patrol those lands and they have powers under the wildlife act for those lands.



Somebody in the transaction must have a gamedealers licence, either the hunter or the buyer. There are alot of regulations covered by the Dept of Ag in relation to sale and processing of venision.

Sikamick wrote: »

We both know the answer to that Mick. No!
Coillte do not recognise BDS for Irish lease holders, not 100% why not, i guess it is to do with it not covering Irish law and Coillte policy.
You are right, I don't think HCAP was designed totally for the welfare of deer and deer management.
I'm sure you'd agree that things are not right at the moment. I mean, anybody can get a deer licence, they need never have seen a deer before. They get a fullbore rifle because they have a deer hunting licence and off they go to shoot deer, no questions asked.
Surely this is not right, it's not fair to the deer and also not fair on the other hunters and members of the public that this person may encounter.
Would you agree to the principle of HCAP, BDS or a similar certified qualification to attain a deer licence?

any way whats the weather like on your planet .it rained hear on earth today the forcast not too good for the weekend,,,

NoNameRanger

jwshooter wrote: »

I thought you sed a while back the rangers do not ride horses any more, but thats a high one your on at the moment ,just make sure your not shot out of the saddle my friend ,,ps i just read paul wood in the digest one man that knows what he is talk in about

jwshooter wrote: »

any way whats the weather like on your planet .it rained hear on earth today the forcast not too good for the weekend,,,

I take it you haven't got anything to add then?:rolleyes:

NoNameRanger

bunny shooter wrote: »

Of course, as far as I'm concerned. Run by people such as yourself may be the way to go ?

Thanks for the vote of confidence!:D :oI'm not looking for the position, i'd be quite happy to watch people do it and stop all the fighting and back biting. Too much oneupmanship involved in the whole thing though. It's too easy to sit back and attack the negative parts of hunting in Ireland, too easy to play the blame game. People need to stop the bitching and work together. It all needs a bit of honesty.

Sikamick

Sikamick wrote: »

We both know the answer to that Mick. No!
Coillte do not recognise BDS for Irish lease holders, not 100% why not, i guess it is to do with it not covering Irish law and Coillte policy.
You are right, I don't think HCAP was designed totally for the welfare of deer and deer management.
I'm sure you'd agree that things are not right at the moment. I mean, anybody can get a deer licence, they need never have seen a deer before. They get a fullbore rifle because they have a deer hunting licence and off they go to shoot deer, no questions asked.
Surely this is not right, it's not fair to the deer and also not fair on the other hunters and members of the public that this person may encounter.
Would you agree to the principle of HCAP, BDS or a similar certified qualification to attain a deer licence?

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Would you agree to the principle of HCAP, BDS or a similar certified qualification to attain a deer licence?[/QUOTE]

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YES, a QUALIFICATION , no to Compulsory, I did the Irish Deer society deer management course twice and have hunted deer for 33 years, I hold two certificates for same and now I am been told that it is not recognized.

I will have to do the HCAP before 2010 or I wont be given a deer hunting license if I dont. Am I correct in saying that the HCAP will compulsory after 2010.

The word compulsory stinks, it smells of dictatorship and elitism , a qualification as a requirement for a deer hunting license sounds a lot better.

I have certificates for pistol handling, Range Safety Officer, Deer hunting, and not one of these are recognised by any of the Government bodies or any of the sporting governing bodies.

What a waste of my time and money and that of a lot of other people.

In Target shooting the NGB's are setting up Irish accredited courses, will this then make the NRA Pistol handling course I have done invalid, more than likely.

The point I am making is that courses like the Irish Deer Society or BDS should be recognized here, especially when the person that holds it has been a Irish deer license holder for a number of years, in my case 33 years.

The same will apply when the NGB'S setup the Irish accredited pistol handing or range safety course they wont recognize the NRA USA or British courses I bet.

More money to be made by the powers that be.







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macnas

The problem is that not enough people are deer hunting and you're not going to encourage any more shooters into the game by making these courses compulsory.
I say make it easier for people to get licenses, none of this minimum acreage or deer density rubbish. Issue licenses to members of Gun clubs that have deer in their club area. The reason we have a deer problem is because Parks and Wildlife have made it overly restrictive to get licenses. We are on the brink of a huge problem with the deer in this country, ten years from now we could be facing a massive disease issue.
I would say to the lads lamping deer, if your not wasting meat and your doing it safely, shoot more.

NoNameRanger

Sikamick wrote: »

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Would you agree to the principle of HCAP, BDS or a similar certified qualification to attain a deer licence?

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?

YES, a QUALIFICATION , no to Compulsory, I did the Irish Deer society deer management course twice and have hunted deer for 33 years, I hold two certificates for same and now I am been told that it is not recognized.

I will have to do the HCAP before 2010 or I wont be given a deer hunting license if I dont. Am I correct in saying that the HCAP will compulsory after 2010.

The word compulsory stinks, it smells of dictatorship and elitism , a qualification as a requirement for a deer hunting license sounds a lot better.

I have certificates for pistol handling, Range Safety Officer, Deer hunting, and not one of these are recognised by any of the Government bodies or any of the sporting governing bodies.

What a waste of my time and money and that of a lot of other people.

In Target shooting the NGB's are setting up Irish accredited courses, will this then make the NRA Pistol handling course I have done invalid, more than likely.

The point I am making is that courses like the Irish Deer Society or BDS should be recognized here, especially when the person that holds it has been a Irish deer license holder for a number of years, in my case 33 years.

The same will apply when the NGB'S setup the Irish accredited pistol handing or range safety course they wont recognize the NRA USA or British courses I bet.

More money to be made by the powers that be.







.[/quote]

Firstly i have heard nothing about it being compulsory by 2010, chinese whispers me thinks.
Secondly i understand where you are coming from. I have no idea of the content of the IDS course but i'm sure it was fine. Personally i think the best way to bring it in would be that all new applicants would have to have completed a course. I also think that the BDS and similar should be good enough and not just HCAP.
The powers that be don't charge anything for deer licences:).

John Griffin

macnas wrote: »

The problem is that not enough people are deer hunting and you're not going to encourage any more shooters into the game by making these courses compulsory.
I say make it easier for people to get licenses, none of this minimum acreage or deer density rubbish. Issue licenses to members of Gun clubs that have deer in their club area. The reason we have a deer problem is because Parks and Wildlife have made it overly restrictive to get licenses. We are on the brink of a huge problem with the deer in this country, ten years from now we could be facing a massive disease issue.
I would say to the lads lamping deer, if your not wasting meat and your doing it safely, shoot more.

Overly restrictive to get licences, you've got to be kidding! All you need is a place with deer and permission from the farmer to shoot them. Go up the north or over to the UK or anywhere in Europe and see how restrictive it is.

You are wrong the problem is not that there isn't enough deer hunters. The problem is that they are shooting mostly stags and bucks. The poachers are not doing any service either, they only shoot stags. This is very obvious when the stag season closes and they can't sell the stags anymore. I know them and they will freely admit they only shoot stags because stags make the money.

There is a good article in the March "Shooting Gazette" on page 64. Its about the change in the deer seasons over in the UK this year.

jwshooter

John Griffin wrote: »

Overly restrictive to get licences, you've got to be kidding! All you need is a place with deer and permission from the farmer to shoot them. Go up the north or over to the UK or anywhere in Europe and see how restrictive it is.

You are wrong the problem is not that there isn't enough deer hunters. The problem is that they are shooting mostly stags and bucks. The poachers are not doing any service either, they only shoot stags. This is very obvious when the stag season closes and they can't sell the stags anymore. I know them and they will freely admit they only shoot stags because stags make the money.

There is a good article in the March "Shooting Gazette" on page 64. Its about the change in the deer seasons over in the UK this year.

There is about 4000, people licenced to hunt deer in ireland, we shot about 18000 deer ,4.5 deer each ,this does not include ,poached deer ,deer that were shot and not recovered which must be a huge number ,calf s left to starve when the hind doe is shot,i heard of one poacher that bragged he had 300 plus shot before november all stags..i dont think a change in our hunting season in the answer or more section 42s ... All the hunting licence returns should be looked at and a break down done of the way we hunt and who shot what.I would guess the largest part of the stag cull was done buy the largest part of the hunters .and the largest part of the hind cull was done buy a smallest percentage of the hunters .. How many stags too hinds were shot , i think most lads are happy to shoot a few stags during the rut untill the pheasant shooting starts and then shoot a hind or two for the freezer in feb,thats just the way it is .personally i could not care less if i never shot another stag .but there is not enough time in the day for whacking hinds .

Sikamick

QUOTE = : NoNameRanger :The powers that be don't charge anything for deer licences.

I did not say deer licenses, I said the Powers that be running courses like HCAP.


NoNameRanger is there a charge for HCAP and if so do you honestly believe
that if the Powers that be make it compulsory, that they wont charge for it.

If they want people to get into deer stalking and cull in the correct way, the course/certification should be free or similar to FAS schemes.

meathstevie

Why not have a closed season on stags and bucks for one or two years if the big problem is the insufficient amounts of does and hinds shot ?
This will give a couple of the young lads a chance to reach their prime as well.

jwshooter

meathstevie wrote: »

Why not have a closed season on stags and bucks for one or two years if the big problem is the insufficient amounts of does and hinds shot ?
This will give a couple of the young lads a chance to reach their prime as well.

would not realy work as the stag shooters would not stir out and the older stags would still have to be culled ,,the thing is i am happy with the deer numbers on my ground and this years cull was good .if every one could say the same there would be no problem .i have hunted hard for the last three weeks to keep coillte happy . .plus i am training a young bitch and wanted to kill as many deer as i could for her .

Tackleberry.

cavan shooter wrote: »

Because the majority are legitimately looking for foxes, and the use of lamp and rifle to control fox predation is a legally recognised method of fox control

honestly the majority in the part of the country that I shoot are not legitimately out to shoot foxes and have even been so bad as to leave shot deer on the land after shooting them, I myself lamp foxes and love to see a good night of tails collected for the NARGC vermin count but lamping the fox is used as a cover for poaching deer and I won't even put a lamp on in the area that I’m talking about as I’d hate someone to even think I was the cause of the animals left on land causing framers the trouble of having to dispose of them. There are other views on the use of the lamp a deer shooter hates to see a lamp for the above reasons and also the man that hunts the fox by hound as your taking from his sport, so take care were you lamp and shoot straight and fill the bag cavan shooter hope everyone was as honest as you.

NoNameRanger

Sikamick wrote: »

QUOTE = : NoNameRanger :The powers that be don't charge anything for deer licences.

I did not say deer licenses, I said the Powers that be running courses like HCAP.


NoNameRanger is there a charge for HCAP and if so do you honestly believe
that if the Powers that be make it compulsory, that they wont charge for it.

If they want people to get into deer stalking and cull in the correct way, the course/certification should be free or similar to FAS schemes.

Yes Mick there is a charge for HCAP, i believe it is about €100. From my knowledge HCAP is being run by the deer groups. Deer Alliance and IDS. My guess is that the money is going to these groups, i could be wrong, maybe Coillte are getting some also.
I do know that NPWS are not getting anything from it, but they did donate a good deal to it development.
I'm pretty certain it won't ever be offered for free!
In fairness it's not expensive compared to the BDS. Also its a one off payment, it's not like you have to pay it every year. And alot of people enjoyed doing it, unlike paying for your firearms cert every year.
Next you'll be askin for grants for rifles and free bullets.;):)

Sparks

Next you'll be askin for grants for rifles

We have one, it's called the Department of Sport Capital Grant Scheme.

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

We have one, it's called the Department of Sport Capital Grant Scheme.

Must apply for some 22 subs for buuny shooting then

NoNameRanger

Sparks wrote: »

We have one, it's called the Department of Sport Capital Grant Scheme.

Are you serious?:eek: Whats the criteria for getting it?

Sikamick

NoNameRanger wrote: »

Yes Mick there is a charge for HCAP, i believe it is about €100. From my knowledge HCAP is being run by the deer groups. Deer Alliance and IDS. My guess is that the money is going to these groups, i could be wrong, maybe Coillte are getting some also.
I do know that NPWS are not getting anything from it, but they did donate a good deal to it development.
I'm pretty certain it won't ever be offered for free!
In fairness it's not expensive compared to the BDS. Also its a one off payment, it's not like you have to pay it every year. And alot of people enjoyed doing it, unlike paying for your firearms cert every year.
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NoNameRanger = Next you'll be askin for grants for rifles and free bullets.;):)

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This is a bit sarcastic, can we stay with the logic/topic when we give answers.

What I want to know, like myself and others that have paid for courses and passed and got certified are we going to have to sit exams AGAIN.

Or will the powers that be act in a fair way and give the new certificates to people that have years of experience and have held deer licenses for years and are aready certified.?

jwshooter

Sikamick wrote: »

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This is a bit sarcastic, can we stay with the logic/topic when we give answers.

What I want to know, like myself and others that have paid for courses and passed and got certified are we going to have to sit exams AGAIN.

Or will the powers that be act in a fair way and give the new certificates to people that have years of experience and have held deer licenses for years and are aready certified.?

" Its a bad day when you dont learn something" jw 08, if one does it we all do it .it will never be compulsory for the hunting licence ..but you will have to have it to hunt on coillte lands . the manual is well put together and not a bad reference to have on your book shelf.but i have one just like from the time i done my level one deer management qualification .9 years ago there very a like ! .the questions on the exam are not the best too many questions on section 42s and only one on a deer rection on taking the shot .also does a sika stag give a alarm call ? think about its a question .it has a lot to give the novice hunter . .o any one good a recipe for roast muntjac.

NoNameRanger

Sikamick wrote: »

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This is a bit sarcastic, can we stay with the logic/topic when we give answers.

What I want to know, like myself and others that have paid for courses and passed and got certified are we going to have to sit exams AGAIN.

Or will the powers that be act in a fair way and give the new certificates to people that have years of experience and have held deer licenses for years and are aready certified.?

Don't take offence Mick, only pulling your leg about the grants:D. Hence the :)

If you have a Coillte letting you will have to do HCAP. Thats their rule!
I am not Coillte!
I've no idea if NPWS will make it compulsory for deer hunters to have completed a course before getting a deer hunting licence. I don't know what they will accept as a certified course. But it is up to you all as deer hunters to voice your concerns to NPWS in a sensible manner.
Why not ask NPWS to make it compulsory for all new deer licence applicants to have completed a deer management course and state that ye believe the IDS cert or BDS cert should be accepted along with HCAP. Be seen to be proactive. Hunters should be promoting the highest standards in their sport, its better to lead the changes than to have them imposed on you.
It would be my view that HCAP, BDS and similar should be accepted if it is ever brought in.

As for coillte not accepting BDS or similar, i don't think there is anything that can be done to change that. But i'm sure the Deer groups have fought this battle already and seem to have lost it or agreed with Coillte.

And as JW said " its a bad day when you dont learn something". Very true.

Sikamick

[/QUOTE]=NoNameRanger


As for coillte not accepting BDS or similar, i don't think there is anything that can be done to change that. But i'm sure the Deer groups have fought this battle already and seem to have lost it or agreed with Coillte.

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When the Irish Deer Society were running their Deer Management Courses coillte had members of their staff give talks as part of the course, so I can't understand why they now wont recognise it as a qualification.

The IDS course was very intensive even to the extent of bring the people that were on the course to see a deer been cleaned out. There would be a vet there to show where to look for disease or infection.

You were instructed on Firearms Law, Ballistics , Deer Management and control, everything that is in the HCAP and more.