Music Production turning into an advertising board

PaulBrewer

That will be my only post on the subject

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

However I do feel an apology for being called a liar on a public forum would be in order, unless the accuser has any evidence to the contrary?

"making out that he has extensive pro experience" are the original poster's words.

If there isn't an apology forthcoming I'm sure the Forum members will come to their own conclusions on the accusers intentions.

you do realise that's not actually calling you a liar. if you took that as the implication, fine. but i didn't actually mean it as that.

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I feel sorry for someone who would put so much effort into dissing me, someone he's never met, as, if I was guilty of ALL I've been accused of, it still wouldn't warrant such nastiness, either to me or to my 'defenders' most of whom I've not met either.

so you're not denying it then. at least you're honest. and i think you'll find that if you are guilty of everything I've accused you of, it certainly warrants this nastiness.
i get the impression you somehow agree with the accusations but do not see a problem.

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I am a bit of a name dropper though.... that's because I can!

lol. must be great to get your self-worth by who you know, not actually what you yourself have achieved in life!

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

That will be my only post on the subject

ooohhh. that certainly showed us!!:rolleyes:

dr.bollocko

JTSUITED Your arguments on this forum are completely nullified by the fact that you are happy to use fallacys to get your point across thus negating any validity in your original argument.
Misquoting others for example, insulting posters. Making sweeping generalisations. You really need to get this fight the powah! crap out of your system and be on your merry way before you lose all credibility, or at least learn how to do it properly before you get more conclusively pwned.

jtsuited

dr.bollocko wrote: »

JTSUITED Your arguments on this forum are completely nullified by the fact that you are happy to use fallacys to get your point across thus negating any validity in your original argument.
Misquoting others for example, insulting posters. Making sweeping generalisations. You really need to get this fight the powah! crap out of your system and be on your merry way before you lose all credibility, or at least learn how to do it properly before you get more conclusively pwned.

fallacies? care to point out any of them.

misquoting others? where?

getting the 'fight the powah crap' out of my system. that's not what this is about at all. i've been on boards a long time, and i've only ever got involved with something like this twice (coincidentally on the same forum).

before i lose all credibility? how?

get more conclusively pwned? if you think i've been conclusively pwned so far I sincerely hope you are never the deciding member on a jury.

and get more conclusively pawned is some shocking use of grammar.

Frankiestylee

Wow...who knew when I started reading this thread that it'd be 8 pages long. Damn.

First off I disagree with JTS, he/she seems to have a habit of misreading things to his/her own end eg. "toe the line" (if someone said "the sky is green" would you insist his tone of voice meant "the sky is red"?), Paulbrewer's last post and other points, including the purpose of Paulbrewer's posts, in my opinion.
Out and out advertising is wrong and I wouldn't have time for the forum if that was its content, but as a musician who is usually asking for advice rather then giving it, I'm more then happy that there are professionals there to give me advice, infact if they weren't professionals I'd have to question most of the advice given. That's not to say that people who dabble shouldn't give advice, I've thrown in my 2cents on a few occasions, but I don't think you can expect a professional level of advice without letting any professionals in. I don't go around openly naming my band, but I did share some wisdom in a "getting signed" thread ... it's pretty much the same thing, I'm sharing my wisdom and if people think I happen to be name dropping/boasting,so be it, but if the advice and information is sound then that's the purpose of the post.
paulbrewer is selling pro-audio gear (or so I assume) and I imagine he'd be quite naiive (sp?) to come onto a pro-audio forum (as it was) in an attempt to sell a load of stuff by simply name dropping and mentioning some events... most of the professional sound engineers I've met have much more cop-on then to be distracted by shiney objects and I reckon us amatuers probably couldn't afford paulbrewer's wares.

As it was in this thread, sad to see Savman get banned, he's given me and others some good advice, but I do agree the ban was due to a warning being disregarded... If I was in Savman's place I'd probably be banned now too.

jtsuited

Frankiestylee wrote: »

, he/she seems to have a habit of misreading things to his/her own end eg. "toe the line" (if someone said "the sky is green" would you insist his tone of voice meant "the sky is red"?), .

no, no, no. the mod's response to this showed that he had meant it exactly the way i took it. don't use that as a basis of your argument.

dr.bollocko

A list of fallacies eh? That's what you want is it?

jtsuited wrote: »

Could somebody please take a look at how the Music production forum has lately turned into a place of marketing for one particular poster (Paul Brewer) who has clearly joined boards with the intention of using it as a place to develop a customer base?

Really? Clearly joined boards? Stating opinion as fact and ad hominem argument. Fallacy.

jtsuited wrote: »

If you think that this guy is doing out of no commercial interest, you're just being plain silly.

Really pathetic.
I really am dissappointed at people on that forum not seeing through the sh1te-talk.

my god you guys are being extraordinarily naiive. I'm done with it.

Amazing familiarity. How do you know one poster's motives? How can you insult the intelligence of other posters, who have been there for longer and have a different opinion for you. Also this is an Ad hominem argument and also a fallacy.

jtsuited wrote: »

and also 'this crusade of mine' cornbb, is actually pointing out sh1t-talkers in the 'industry' as soon as they open their mouth. You obviously have a problem with that.

Statement of opinion marked as fact. Fallacy. Also this is an by uninformed opinion and yet again insulting others rather than making a point. Yet another fallacy.

jtsuited wrote: »

i'll still point out that your posts are absolutely irrelavant and useless in this thread.

Again, stating opinion as fact. Diminishing another poster, in fact needling them. Not attacking the argument. Also you are stacking the deck here, in an attempt to devalue arguments against yours. Fallacy.

jtsuited wrote: »

do you mind not hijacking this thread?

You are misunderstanding another poster and attacking the relevance of their opinion rather than attempting to listen and understand. This is a fallacy.

jtsuited wrote: »

Telepaul, I didn't take this issue over here to argue with you. I don't honestly care about your opinion on the matter. So don't post in this thread. Start another one. It doesn't really concern you.

Again. Attacking a poster and his knowledge rather than an argument that he makes. Again, a fallacy.
Now. This is a list of the problems I have with your arguments from only page 1 of this thread. If you would like me to continue in highlighting where you were wrong please ask and I will continue. There are 8 pages of you being wrong for me to quote from if you like but I feel that would be cruel and waste my time.
However, your trite responses, and cheap shots at others as seen as above, this is what I mean by damaging your credibility.

You are insulting a decent moderator, other posters, valid contributors who help a hell of a lot more than you do and that, to me, is the essence of the Fight the powah crap that ruins feedback with opinions stated as fact continually, though you are in the extreme minority in considering them true and this has been pointed out to you numerous times by other posters..

And you can attack my grammar all you want, but that has been done to you already in this thread and you insulted the poster who did it, so I wont resort to your pedantic argument style and merely state the fact, not my opinion, and use your own words to finally shut you up.

jtsuited

dr. bollocko. you have a very odd definition of a fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

having studied formal logic, i can tell you that none of the above are fallacies. Well certainly not in the normal sense of the word.

so congratulations on wasting all your time pointing out things that are not fallacies.

also, when most people write something and they don't explicitly say 'this is a fact', you take for granted there will be a opinionated bias in what they say.

jtsuited

dr.bollocko wrote: »

A list of fallacies eh? That's what you want is it?


Really? Clearly joined boards? Stating opinion as fact and ad hominem argument. Fallacy.



Amazing familiarity. How do you know one poster's motives? How can you insult the intelligence of other posters, who have been there for longer and have a different opinion for you. Also this is an Ad hominem argument and also a fallacy.





Statement of opinion marked as fact. Fallacy. Also this is an by uninformed opinion and yet again insulting others rather than making a point. Yet another fallacy.




Again, stating opinion as fact. Diminishing another poster, in fact needling them. Not attacking the argument. Also you are stacking the deck here, in an attempt to devalue arguments against yours. Fallacy.



You are misunderstanding another poster and attacking the relevance of their opinion rather than attempting to listen and understand. This is a fallacy.





Again. Attacking a poster and his knowledge rather than an argument that he makes. Again, a fallacy.
Now. This is a list of the problems I have with your arguments from only page 1 of this thread. If you would like me to continue in highlighting where you were wrong please ask and I will continue. There are 8 pages of you being wrong for me to quote from if you like but I feel that would be cruel and waste my time.
However, your trite responses, and cheap shots at others as seen as above, this is what I mean by damaging your credibility.

You are insulting a decent moderator, other posters, valid contributors who help a hell of a lot more than you do and that, to me, is the essence of the Fight the powah crap that ruins feedback with opinions stated as fact continually, though you are in the extreme minority in considering them true and this has been pointed out to you numerous times by other posters..

And you can attack my grammar all you want, but that has been done to you already in this thread and you insulted the poster who did it, so I wont resort to your pedantic argument style and merely state the fact, not my opinion, and use your own words to finally shut you up.

by your logic (and inaccurate use of the word fallacy) this post is in itself riddled with fallacies. I'm not going to bother doing the same for you as you did for me, but you'll see them easily enough.

dr.bollocko

I have studied fallacies and formal arugment / debating. Shoot me if you dont agree buddy but I know I am right about your argument style, which, as you must know, from studying it yourself, are now completely diminished and not even acceptable as arguments in a debate environment. I see completely through your agressive style of posting to point to the reality that, in this case, you are doing absolutely nothing but harming yourself further by questioning my ability to point out the numerous holes in your argument. Also, you can berate and roar, insult and attack all you like, but all you are doing is further digging yourself into a hole. You appear, in that last post which is yet again riddled with holes, to indicate quite strongly to me that you are willing to get agressive about something which you clearly know absolutely nothing whatsoever about.
Posting a wikipedia article for me to read is never ever going to change that buddy.

jtsuited

dr.bollocko wrote: »

I have studied fallacies and formal arugment / debating.

Listen man, I know that I've been aggressive on this thread (way more than i ever have in my 1000+ posts on boards - i usually don't get fuming about anything on the internet.)
And I regret that fact. I will admit that yes, i have undermined my own credibility in various ways.

However I did have a very valid point (maybe only originally) to make, and was absolutely fuming to see a mod say something like cornbb did to me.

I think I've made my point (the original one - which many people who have disagreed with me have stated was an entirely valid one), and yes I let myself get a little bit too pedantic. But in my opinion, there was a strong case to be made about (what i believe to be) the inherent contradiction going on.

On the fight the powah point. I normally find it hilarious when i see most attempts at fighting the powah on forums. And if you go through my post history you will see pretty much nothing to suggest (bar one small isolated incident that was easily resolved) that I have any interest in that type of thing. I really don't. I have never had any problems with any other forums modding and I think they do an exceptional job to keep any sort of order around here.

However I question your ability to find holes in my argument, because you have used the term fallacy completely incorrectly.

jtsuited

i can see that many here disagree with me, and some others agree (to what extent they do varies). This has got way out of hand (and I'm hugely guilty in this regard).

But what seems to be regarded as a valid point now, was regarded as a bannable offence just days ago, and i kicked up major sh1te as I felt a moderator had insulted me publicly (yes i know how it was implicit), and really was offended by his comments on the matter.

I would still like Dev or Ecksor's opinion on the matter, even just out of curiousity.

I have been overly aggressive in my posting style (as was pointed out), but i still stand by my main points. I bear no grudges coming out of this thread that I didn't have coming in and to those that i was particularly hard on (Telepaul especially), I apologise profusely.

I am apologising here not about what I brought up, but the way in which I brought it up and argued.
We all love a good debate, but I think myself being so pi$$ed off with what was going on, kind of ruined it.

randylonghorn

jtsuited wrote: »

i can see that many here disagree with me, and some others agree (to what extent they do varies). This has got way out of hand (and I'm hugely guilty in this regard).

But what seems to be regarded as a valid point now, was regarded as a bannable offence just days ago, and i kicked up major sh1te as I felt a moderator had insulted me publicly (yes i know how it was implicit), and really was offended by his comments on the matter.

I would still like Dev or Ecksor's opinion on the matter, even just out of curiousity.

I have been overly aggressive in my posting style (as was pointed out), but i still stand by my main points. I bear no grudges coming out of this thread that I didn't have coming in and to those that i was particularly hard on (Telepaul especially), I apologise profusely.

I am apologising here not about what I brought up, but the way in which I brought it up and argued.
We all love a good debate, but I think myself being so pi$$ed off with what was going on, kind of ruined it.

That's a huge step forward.

Would you now consider that the way you brought your views up in the original thread, and the fact that you hi-jacked the thread to do so, is what brought you into conflict with the mod in the first place, rather than the fact that you had a view on the subject which was different from his own?

I've just had a glance in Music Production, and there is a thread which seems to be discussing exactly the issues you wanted to raise, started in a civil and rational fashion, and it seems to have the backing of / contributions from the mods.

Cornbb expressed early in this thread his view that Paul Brewer, whoever he is, was keeping within the charter and rules. You had a different view. You're perfectly entitled to it. However, the louder you shouted, and the more you danced up and down, the less and less anyone heard ... or wanted to hear!

I've never visited the Music Production forum before yesterday, but I would just mention that the "line in the sand" which Cornbb has explained a couple of times in all this discussion is roughly the same one which mods try to draw in a number of other fora ... at least as I understand it, but I'm just an ordinary user like yourself, and I don't have any special understanding or knowledge of these things. I thought Frobisher's post (# 21 in the thread in the MP forum ) was very good and balanced especially.

That said, Cornbb also said (in the thread in the MP forum) that that line in the sand may need to move slightly, or to be clarified at least, in that forum ... and users of the forum have been given an opportunity to have their say on that, including you.

All good.

All could have happened with a lot less stress for you, and the mods, and everyone else in the vicinity!

Savman

jtsuited wrote: »

I actually thought (and still do) that savman wasn't on my side of the fence at all. So when you've got both sides having a problem with the moderation, you really have to realise there's something wrong.

This is what makes the whole damn saga a farce. I never though Paul was crossing the line with the advertising, but the discussion was shot down before it was allowed to happen. The reason we are where we are with 8/9 od pages of this is because your posts were deleted and you were told to take it to Feedback. Now there's a whole thread on the issue, with the same short-sighted people looking for opinions on the matter. Unbelievable, some folk just can't see the wood from the trees.

Paul Brewer wrote:

However I do feel an apology for being called a liar on a public forum would be in order, unless the accuser has any evidence to the contrary?

"making out that he has extensive pro experience" are the original poster's words.

With all due respect, on t'internet nearly everyone exaggerates their own profile, nobody has any way of knowing who anybody really is so you just have to accept there will always be an element of skepticism and rightly so. I personally don't think anything said to you warrants an apology, far from it. You haven't been done any favours by anybody here, it looks really fishy when as soon as someone dare question your credentials, posts get deleted and bans get dished out and a storm in a tea cup kicks off on Feedback. This is all because one poster took exception to your posts and wanted clarification as to whether or not you were abusing the board. I didn't think so, but I welcomed the debate. Deleting posts just makes people wonder whether you and cornbb are drinking buddies.

PaulBrewer wrote:

I feel sorry for someone who would put so much effort into dissing me, someone he's never met, as, if I was guilty of ALL I've been accused of, it still wouldn't warrant such nastiness, either to me or to my 'defenders' most of whom I've not met either.

To them I say 'Thanks'

I have to say, I do not recall anyone "dissing" you. I have to wonder if the OP started a thread in MP about how crap Audio Warehouse were, and you weren't an active board member, would it have been shut down as fast? Would there have been bannings? Absolutely not. There are threads every other day about "Thomann are rubbish" and "Music Store sent me a broken guitar and made the baby jesus cry" but I don't see any of those thread locked or anyone banned. In fact the very same Moderators even chime in quite regularly to rant about Thomann et al.

If you pride yourself on being a 'ProAudio' dealer, why are you exempt from criticism? And if you are granted leniency for being a regular contributer, surely I should be afforded the same respect?

Paul Brewer wrote:

That will be my only post on the subject

As you wish, but it's your company at the core of this so I would have expected you to take a much keener interest.

cornbb

I'm sorry that this whole thing has turned out to be so ugly. jtsuited, I never meant to get personal and I'm sorry if you interpreted my comments that way. Lets be civil and discuss this maturely in the MP forum.

I stand by the way I moderated the situation though. What jtsuited and Savman don't seem to accept is that this situation was not caused by mod censorship, power tripping, stifling of discussion, playing favourites or anything like that, it arose from the simple fact that the two of you flaunted the rules, despite being given 2nd or 3rd chances. I never tried to stifle discussion, just tried to keep certain threads on-topic and clean, I made that clear in this post: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55249365&postcount=26

I'm not going to repeat myself any more, I too would like an admin's input on this.

Savman

I don't see what is to be gained from an Admin's input, in fact to anyone from the outside looking in it'll look exactly like what it is, a squabble that could've been avoided and/or handled better by all sides.

jtsuited

cornbb wrote: »

I'm sorry that this whole thing has turned out to be so ugly. jtsuited, I never meant to get personal and I'm sorry if you interpreted my comments that way. Lets be civil and discuss this maturely in the MP forum.

apology accepted. i was being way too heated about the whole issue so was being quite sensitive.
sorry for being so pedantic and stuff, but i just feel the whole tone around that forum has changed (for worse). I respect that many others don't agree, and others do, and that's pretty much the end of it in my opinion.

Just to point out, cornbb was never really threatening in pms or on the forum to me. he felt it was getting off topic, I didn't. he's the mod and I'm not, so it's his call.
I don't know what way he was with Savman, so I'm not going to comment.

i did not take much issue with the alleged power tripping etc - my main beef was with the poster in question, and tbh I've made my points on the MP forum about what I think of him now. Thanks to the mods for taking the feedback on board and letting the discussion happen.

I'm really not too worried anymore as I think raising the issue was enough. If mods are ok with what this guy is doing, that's their call no matter what my opinion on it.

CuLT

Edit:

VVVV ~ reflection time ~ VVVV

DeVore

this blew up yesterday, I was in a meeting all day and last night sat down and read most of the posts on this thread and most of the posts on the other threads too. I say, most, because to be honest I just couldnt bring myself to wade through the inane point-scoring never-surrender entrenchment of just about everyone in the "debate".

Instead I went off and spent a really long time (several hours in fact) trying to be inspired by sufficient "wisdom" to see the middle way here.

Firstly, lets define terms:
Shill: a person who pretends to be an innocent member of the public but who is actually in the paid employ of the company they are promoting.

Clearly he's not a shill.

End of Part 1 as I must get back to work, Part 2 coming soon.

DeV.