Is this forum getting too commercial?

ICN

I've been a visitor to this forum for a long time now.. but have only started posting quite recently.

I have always found it handy to get tips etc.. or just to get opinions (and hopefully solutions..) on issues that I'm experiencing.

However.. I've noticed that this forum seems to be getting slightly more commercialised as time goes on. Certain posters are coming from definite commercial backgrounds.. and openly say who they are and what they do.

Based on recent events in a recent thread.. its obvious that I am not alone in thinking this.

I think that certain posters are basically advertising their wares behind a cheeky grin - going "I'm not advertising - I simply come from a retail background, so I can understand where you might get that misconception from...However, I am not selling anything etc.. (wink wink)"

I'm unsure.

I appreciate that the Mod's would intervene if there was blatant out & out selling / advertising. There isn't - but I do think that there is still some "Leak" nonetheless.

I also appreciate that many of the posters here are actually asking for help or advice, and sometimes looking to buy, or rent some studio or do some course - whatever. So its not as if "We" don't want it.

I think that the average Guy, looking for a bit of help etc.. is non-business, and on these occasions that is the difference.

I think threads like "Free Stuff for all of you" etc.. (I'm afraid to say it but I will..) are nothing but Spam.

But where should the line be drawn? Can it, if the rules are not thoroughly enforced for everyone?

.. Or is this a mountain out of a molehill?

I hope this will not get nasty. However, I do think it should be discussed openly and fairly. I shall be very interested to hear everyone's opinion.

I think we're all a little guilty of encouraging it.. but should it continue?

TelePaul

ICN wrote: »

I've been a visitor to this forum for a long time now.. but have only started posting quite recently.

Hey ICN! Just so ya know, this is a pretty hot topic right now. If Cornbb gives the go ahead, I'd be more than happy to detail my views in a thorough post.

mike65

The Sonic Safari thread certainly has the feel of PR for Paul Bewer and his life and times.

Interestingly he pre-empted any criticism with the following

This might be of interest to some of you, if not ............ move along there.

Mike.

cornbb

Go right ahead, this should be out in the open.

Given the tone of the Feedback thread I think a pre-emptive warning to keep the thread clean, impersonal and civilised is fitting. Lets have a mature discussion about this.

TelePaul

cornbb wrote: »

Go right ahead, this should be out in the open.

Thanks, I'll contribute a little later on.

cornbb

Ok, here's my say on it.

The forum charter (which is decided upon by the mods, with input from users) forbids the use of the forum for commercial/advertising purposes. While this is a fairly clear-cut rule, unfortunately we seem to have stumbled into a situation where it appears it needs to be interpreted.

Firstly, while boards.ie has a zero tolerance policy on spam and shilling, there is some leeway allowed for posters with commercial interests who genuinely contribute to the forum and offer something to its users. This precedent has been set in many other forums.

The particular user in question in this case happens to offer an impressive range of experience, knowledge and industry connections. Although some of the events he refers to undoubtedly have a commercial flavour, it is my opinion that it would be more beneficial for our users to be aware of such events then to delete these posts. The boards.ie rules allow for this leeway and I have interpreted them in this way. I do not believe any of the charter rules have been breached.

The charter also indicates that we want this place to develop a community feeling, that we want it to grow, and that we want all users at all levels of experience to share their knowledge. Me, frobisher, and many other regulars on the forum actively work towards this, see the stickies at the top of the forum for evidence. Of late, we have had a crop of new users who bring a new level of experience and knowledge to the forum - PaulBrewer, studiorat and trackmixstudio spring to mind off the top of my head. Although they have all made users aware of their business connections, to my mind, their contributions have been highly beneficial to the forum, helping it grow and mature. As far as I know, this is one of the only music technology/music production forums that is purely Irish-oriented, therefore its only natural that we encourage collaboration, networking, raising awareness of events of genuine interest, etc.

I understand that some users have interpreted the scenario differently to me, that is fair enough and that is the purpose of this discussion. This forum is for the users, so if a new consensus from this thread is reached then the mods will find a way to change the charter and its enforcement accordingly. I'm sorry this whole thing has started to turn ugly but this is a chance for everyone to have their say.

studiorat

Firstly, I think the charter is slightly vague. Secondly maybe it needs another name change, namely home studio recording.

I'm an Engineer and a Producer (producing for other people btw), I do this for a living. The very nature of Pro Audio is commercially driven. You might have noticed, but very few people here actually discuss technique, it's all about the gear as far as I can see.
Either the Pro's can talk about their work if they want to or not, or we can all sit here and compare sh1te soundcards. I suppose if you are happy with home studio quality recordings, you can be happy with home studio quality discussions too. Personally I believe the quality of the demos floating around these days has taken a serious nose dive.

A sign of the times, the studio industry is being taken over by rich kids who's daddies fork out for
"studios" and €4,000 a year sound engineering courses.

mike65

Thats some of us put in our place then.

Mike.

cornbb

ICN wrote:

Certain posters are coming from definite commercial backgrounds.. and openly say who they are and what they do.

I'd just like to clarify that the practice of revealing commercial interests is encouraged on boards - it helps avoid conflict of interest and dispel any doubts that someone might be a shill.

studiorat

mike65 wrote: »

Thats some of us put in our place then.

Mike.

Well I look at some of the stuff people are buying and think WTF? Why? Because they believe the marketing hype?

And Frankly, a lot of the musicians and bands around Dublin anyway have quite serious money at their disposal. But as far as I can see would rather spend 2 years recording 12 songs "in a shoe box for a penny", than go and write 12 more, or heaven forbid play a gig! I nearly fell over when I heard one guy say to another recently "hows your album comin' on?" Like they were getting a bleedin' extension built...

cornbb

studiorat wrote: »

Well I look at some of the stuff people are buying and think WTF? Why? Because they believe the marketing hype?

And Frankly, a lot of the musicians and bands around Dublin anyway have quite serious money at their disposal. But as far as I can see would rather spend 2 years recording 12 songs "in a shoe box for a penny", than go and write 12 more, or heaven forbid play a gig! I nearly fell over when I heard one guy say to another recently "hows your album comin' on?" Like they were getting a bleedin' extension built...

studiorat, I think you are taking a pretty blinkered approach to this. While I'm sure you are a seasoned professional, you must appreciate the varied nature of the activities people in here get up to. Take a look at the recent poll: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055237545

Many of us here don't have an interest in large commercial recording operations and many of us don't even give a crap about recording at all, preferring to focus on things like electronic music, MIDI, coding or live engineering. Most users here make music at home in their spare time, as a hobby, and have neither the resources, the inclination or the need to use big studios or buy top-of-the-line equipment.

Your post comes off as elitist and it goes against the spirit of what we are trying to do here. You can choose not to participate in discussions that you think are amateur or whatever, but belittling what other people get up to is hardly fair.

ICN

cornbb wrote: »

I'd just like to clarify that the practice of revealing commercial interests is encouraged on boards - it helps avoid conflict of interest and dispel any doubts that someone might be a shill.

Yup - I know.

I hear what you say about this being the only Irish production Forum etc.. Cool. However I think the ground rules need to be more enforced.



But its vague to say the least. Its like the guy who killed you saying to the cops afterwards - "I told him I was a murderer."

If you are honest; does that then excuse you? so that you can advertise your business / shops / studios / courses etc.. ??

I find it quite annoying.

It feels sometimes that "certain" posters are Hi-jacking this forum. I wont name names & will keep it impersonal.

The signatures say it all Guys.

Sure - Give the advice.. but get rid of the free ads at the bottom of your posts if you are honestly doing it for the right reasons.

Thoughts?

TelePaul

mike65 wrote: »

Thats some of us put in our place then.

Mike.

Hey Mike, what's up? Come on, speak up dude, nobodys going to flame you because you disagree. I take it you don't like the way things are here?

Sherifu

TelePaul wrote: »

Hey Mike, what's up? Come on, speak up dude, nobodys going to flame you because you disagree. I take it you don't like the way things are here?

How did you come to that conclusion?

TelePaul

Sherifu wrote: »

How did you come to that conclusion?

I don't know what other conclusion could be reached....though he didn't quote anything in particular so I guess it's somewhat ambiguous. Frankly, I don't think it's a matetr of putting anyone in their place.

cornbb

TelePaul wrote: »

I don't know what other conclusion could be reached....though he didn't quote anything in particular so I guess it's somewhat ambiguous. Frankly, I don't think it's a matetr of putting anyone in their place.

I think his "putting us in our place" post was referring to studiorat's post, not mine.

TelePaul

cornbb wrote: »

I think his "putting us in our place" post was referring to studiorat's post, not mine.

Grand, but I still don't understand why it was said decisively. Maybe there's just something I'm not getting, been a long week.

cornbb

TelePaul wrote: »

Grand, but I still don't understand why it was said decisively. Maybe there's just something I'm not getting, been a long week.

I'm guessing it was something along the lines of what I said about studiorat's post. Maybe mike will wander along and clarify that for us.

mike65

StudioRats follow up I agree with in part - "All the Gear and clueless" approach, but as cornbb says this forum is for all sorts - newbie to veterans who tweak pots in thier sleep. I suppose you are never going to please all the poeple - those who feel the board has a bit too much of the amature ethos should go elsewhere or be understanding when someone can't figure how to record midi to audio.

Mike.

Sherifu

TelePaul wrote: »

I don't know what other conclusion could be reached....though he didn't quote anything in particular so I guess it's somewhat ambiguous. Frankly, I don't think it's a matetr of putting anyone in their place.

I read it like this too:

cornbb wrote: »

I think his "putting us in our place" post was referring to studiorat's post, not mine.

frobisher

I think it'd be good if the general mood around this whole topic (I'm refering to several threads, not just this one) was brought down a few clicks on the richter scale. No one has lost a limb. Let's all have a decent discussion about it. I personally suggest that being done without 1 single incident of mud slinging. It serves no benifit at all. People are people, opinions are opinions. They are not the same thing. Lets talk about the board and what's happening on it, not about what we think of what someone who doesn't agree with us said once in a pm or thread etc etc. What I'd like to hear is what people think about this whole topic, not just their opinion on what others think of it. Basically let's follow one of the golden guide lines of internet posting; let's stay on topic.

I don't think the board has become too commercial but I do think that as of late there has been more movement in that direction than ever before. It'll pass though. There is no way in a bazillion years the board is going to become a commercial forum, even if the Mods were accepting back handers (there goes my pro-audio dealer funded holiday to the Seychelles!). The C-mods or admins would step in. So let's not really worry about us comepletely losing the place. It won't happen.

Boards is always in a state of flux in my opinion. Here in music production alone we've had 3 name changes, various fads, ideas and projects and people that come and go. It's all peaks and troughs. This is one of them. Now we have this thread we can discuss it amongst oursleves and reach a consensus that fits within the rules and guidelines of boards.ie.

As far as I'm concerned there is a place for people who want to register their commercial service on the board. In fact, we created a thread specially for it, Pimp Your Service. And I believe posters should take advantage of it. But the tricky issue is when you have a topic like music production where people are absolutely ravenous for whatever next piece of gear or studio or engineer will make them sound amazing and the people with the most active knowledge who can advice are often those with a commercial biased perspective. It's inherently tricky. I think the answer is to use common sense and to not beleive everything you read especially if someone has declared a commercial interest in the Pimp My Service thread.

Boards isn't a public service, it's a privately owned entitity and works with certain amount of flexibilty. But the way I look at it is that when someone breaks the rules we ban them if needed. We don't make an allowance because they are more popular/clever/connected/whatever. In a nutshell if people promote themselves too much they'll be banned. It's up to them if they want to do it. I get the feeling that the people who beleive MP is becoming too commercial think myself and cornbb are willing to let people advertise what they want. WTF?! No way Jose. That said, do I think that some of the new people round here would like to use this place as a marketing tool? Unfortunatly yes I do. But I think that as of yet it's been borderline and hasn't been clear enough for a mod to confidently ban someone without any doubt. But then give people time to get used to a place and they often change their modus operandi. Because it's been borderline I presonally believe posters deserve a chance. Others might dis-agree but there's no one right way to mod just different people doing their best.

So with all the above in mind I am not going to vote no.

jtsuited

well looks like i don't feel so lonely anymore, cornbb.

jtsuited

frobisher wrote: »

That said, do I think that some of the new people round here would like to use this place as a marketing tool? Unfortunatly yes I do.

good lord, all i do is point this out (albeit in a slightly more animated way) and all hell breaks loose. Yet one moderator agrees with me.

Makes you wonder.

dav nagle

Hello all,

May I clarify a few questions with the moderators please if possible?

1. Is it perfectly fine to advertise at the end of every thread I post or does that depend on how much I contribute to the Boards community? The type of things I would advertise are my studio and my new album?



Thankyou

frobisher

dav nagle wrote: »

Hello all,

May I clarify a few questions with the moderators please if possible?

1. Is it perfectly fine to advertise at the end of every thread I post or does that depend on how much I contribute to the Boards community? The type of things I would advertise are my studio and my new album?
Thankyou

Presumably you're talking about signatures, right? If so a link to something you run on-line that isn't breaking other sig rules is allowed. So in short, when done correctly, yes, it is perfectly fine.

dav nagle

frobisher wrote: »

Presumably you're talking about signatures, right? If so a link to something you run on-line that isn't breaking other sig rules is allowed. So in short, when done correctly, yes, it is perfectly fine.

Hello Frobisher,



Yes indeed I am talking about signatures nothing else. Thankyou for the information regarding signatures, sound man.

BME

So today this topic is permitted, but yesterday it wasn't. Hmmmm.

dav nagle

BME wrote: »

So today this topic is permitted, but yesterday it wasn't. Hmmmm.

Why was it not permitted please?

jtsuited

BME wrote: »

So today this topic is permitted, but yesterday it wasn't. Hmmmm.

yes it is a bit strange. saying that this is a specific thread so it's fair enough if the mods feel that the real danger was a thread being hijacked yesterday.

dav nagle

jtsuited wrote: »

yes it is a bit strange. saying that this is a specific thread so it's fair enough if the mods feel that the real danger was a thread being hijacked yesterday.

How does a thread get hijacked? I am confused??

Sherifu

dav nagle wrote: »

How does a thread get hijacked? I am confused??

When someone tries to change the original topic into something else.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_hijacking