Is this forum getting too commercial?

ICN

I've been away Thursday / Friday. Dont worry I wont start droping names or start a new thread!

Just back now and very interested in what everyone has to say.

Paul - To be honest Mate, your posts / threads definitely appear as being vehicle for self promotion on occasion.


I'll be totally honest with you here - I'm repelled by your signature.. and I would agree with jtsuited (only in a "constructive criticism to you" way) about what he said about some of your posts and advice.

I don't think you mean it always. You have admitted being a good salesman and that is going to be with you forever.. Thats why you are successful.

But I think that you need to be aware that people's perceptions will decide the tone whenever there is no voice - just text.

The signature sets the tone IMO.

I think it throws a shadow on your good intentions - but that's just my opinion.



Free stuff / Shows / Sonic safari whatever.. Surely that's stuff for a blog or an events thread /forum?

I would hate to think that someone is sitting there posting away as part of their 9to5.


Everyone is cohabiting here.. We need to regulate ourselves.

Now you need to regulate yourself as there is obviously a misconception or three forming, whether its false or true.

I'm not trying to get personal with you at all.. Its just some feedback that I think you need.

I know we'll all be hanging around here for a while to come (or at least the end of this thread LOL).. so I definitely don't want to come across like I'm having a go at you Mate. No one wants to be a cyber bully, haha!

So to conclude: I just think you need to tone it down a little Paul.

Just a little bit - and everything would be fine.

FAO Mods. I don't think anything should be removed from this thread.

jtsuited

ICN wrote: »

I've been away Thursday / Friday. Dont worry I wont start droping names or start a new thread!

jtsuited

right before i start this, mods if you feel the need to delete I will understand. It's just something I'm putting out there.

My main problem here has been the type of marketing and whatnot. I gave the audiowarehouse website a visit. It was not surprising that the site was consistent with Paul's general conduct (ie Namedropping, etc.). In fact you'll notice on one of the pages 'went to school with U2' is cited as some sort of pro experience. How that is actually relevant to having knowledge on the ins and outs (oh the pun) of audio is beyond me.

To me the whole site and Paul's general marketing demeanour is not something that appeals to me in the slightest. I've been around engineers since I was born (as i mentioned it's the family business so to speak), and i've seen this type of business being done like this a million times before. Frankly it's not respected in many areas of the business (well the areas I have seen anyway) and is seen as devaluing a highly revered craft for the sake of selling a few extra preamps.

Maybe I'm too passionate for my own good about music, recording, production, etc but at the end of the day it is my business. I make most of my living from music production ( it's not a great one but it is looking up recently). And I am irked by people bringing cut-throat marketing and the like into the domain.
Now you may say 'but jtsuited, everyone operates like that, what do you expect Paul Brewer to do?'. And if you were new to the audio industry you'd be forgiven for thinking it was a very valid point.

To illustrate this, take a look at Big Bear Audio's website at www.bigbearsound.com.
now notice that there is only one 'namedrop' on the whole site, yet these guys have been operating out of windmill lane (where they were until last year) to the biggest clients imaginable.
so why don't they do it in the same way Brewer and his crew are doing it? well because they have taste. yes they have to market but because of their established reputation in the business they can keep the marketspeak to a minimum. Obviously they use some marketing language on their website, but it's a lot more tastefully done than the likes of audiowarehouse do.
before anyone asks, I do not work for Big Bear. I do however know them personally through my father's years of extensive business with them. I've bought my fair share of stuff in there also.
And I know who many of them have worked with. And I know they'd never namedrop it like the way Paul Brewer does about this and that. And believe me they could 'afford to' (as Paul would put it).

No they don't have a desperate need to form networks on forums like boards in order to sell gear. They are respected for their excellent service and don't need to be sh1tin on about their visits to the various companies they distribute for (digidesign, genelec, hhb, loads more -you see the point).
It's all about the manner you do things in. Paul you have said that you are here as a pro-audio dealer, so i'm giving you the criticisms that you can only expect to get if you're on here as a representative of a business.

I for one (even without my relationship with Big Bear) would not dream of ever setting foot in an establishment like yours. Simply because of the way you have behaved from the moment you got on here. That's my opinion and i'm afraid i'm entitled to it.

I've indicated my problems with your style of marketing above and I hope you do realise that not everyone is blown away by namedropping and 'pro this/ pro that/pat on the back to the blizzards/sonic safari/here's my picture with rupert neve-aren't i great'.

In fact I'm sure a lot of intelligent rational people just find it a little bit pathetic.

As I said, mods please feel free to delete if you think i have carried out any sort of rulebreaking here. I think what i've said has been civilised and relevant.

sei046

WO Wo wo wo wo. Howld on a minute here lads. I am getting more and more annoyed at this sort of thing as it goes on. The lads on here get SO up in arms at wasting two minutes of their online life reading a post. First we had the, we need a professional engineers thread where the big boys can talk and keep the others out.....Becuase it is getting so frustrating having to skip by their petty soundcard threads.

And this is exactly the same. If you know a person has some other agenda and is just pushing their products/ego then just ignore the post! SO WHAT if paul has his company! More power to him, its a side to the business noone else has here on boards. This comes along and everyone gets all "Back DEMON!".

Are you worried you want be able to make up your own mind and Paul is going to seduce you to buy his products???

or

Are you upset your wasting your time reading his comments?

or

It seems that if anyone came on the forum talking about their visit to Digidesign or meeting Rupert Neve or whatever you would all be snapping your keys off to hear the craic. But its Paul doing it so its just ego boosting.

I think everything is just fine, The pros on here arent bothering their arse talking about pro stuff because they are worrying about silly silly stuff. I cant come on here and hear some new ideas or products because everyone is in the "BUT i dont LIKE it......." thread.



this thread has just turned into ...well I worked here!...but i worked there...and im more entitled to my opinion because i used 4 more compressors than you



GROW UP!

PaulBrewer

ICN wrote: »

I've been away Thursday / Friday. Dont worry I wont start droping names or start a new thread!

Just back now and very interested in what everyone has to say.

Paul - To be honest Mate, your posts / threads definitely appear as being vehicle for self promotion on occasion.


I'll be totally honest with you here - I'm repelled by your signature.. and I would agree with jtsuited (only in a "constructive criticism to you" way) about what he said about some of your posts and advice.

I don't think you mean it always. You have admitted being a good salesman and that is going to be with you forever.. Thats why you are successful.

But I think that you need to be aware that people's perceptions will decide the tone whenever there is no voice - just text.

The signature sets the tone IMO.

I think it throws a shadow on your good intentions - but that's just my opinion.



Free stuff / Shows / Sonic safari whatever.. Surely that's stuff for a blog or an events thread /forum?

I would hate to think that someone is sitting there posting away as part of their 9to5.


Everyone is cohabiting here.. We need to regulate ourselves.

Now you need to regulate yourself as there is obviously a misconception or three forming, whether its false or true.

I'm not trying to get personal with you at all.. Its just some feedback that I think you need.

I know we'll all be hanging around here for a while to come (or at least the end of this thread LOL).. so I definitely don't want to come across like I'm having a go at you Mate. No one wants to be a cyber bully, haha!

So to conclude: I just think you need to tone it down a little Paul.

Just a little bit - and everything would be fine.

FAO Mods. I don't think anything should be removed from this thread.

I guess I'm a victim of my own enthusiasm ! Points noted, horns pulled in.
On with the Music...... I'm off to the studio for the day!!

frobisher

jtsuited wrote: »

right before i start this, mods if you feel the need to delete I will understand. It's just something I'm putting out there.

My main problem here has been the type of marketing and whatnot. I gave the audiowarehouse website a visit. It was not surprising that the site was consistent with Paul's general conduct (ie Namedropping, etc.). In fact you'll notice on one of the pages 'went to school with U2' is cited as some sort of pro experience. How that is actually relevant to having knowledge on the ins and outs (oh the pun) of audio is beyond me.

To me the whole site and Paul's general marketing demeanour is not something that appeals to me in the slightest. I've been around engineers since I was born (as i mentioned it's the family business so to speak), and i've seen this type of business being done like this a million times before. Frankly it's not respected in many areas of the business (well the areas I have seen anyway) and is seen as devaluing a highly revered craft for the sake of selling a few extra preamps.

Maybe I'm too passionate for my own good about music, recording, production, etc but at the end of the day it is my business. I make most of my living from music production ( it's not a great one but it is looking up recently). And I am irked by people bringing cut-throat marketing and the like into the domain.
Now you may say 'but jtsuited, everyone operates like that, what do you expect Paul Brewer to do?'. And if you were new to the audio industry you'd be forgiven for thinking it was a very valid point.

To illustrate this, take a look at Big Bear Audio's website at www.bigbearsound.com.
now notice that there is only one 'namedrop' on the whole site, yet these guys have been operating out of windmill lane (where they were until last year) to the biggest clients imaginable.
so why don't they do it in the same way Brewer and his crew are doing it? well because they have taste. yes they have to market but because of their established reputation in the business they can keep the marketspeak to a minimum. Obviously they use some marketing language on their website, but it's a lot more tastefully done than the likes of audiowarehouse do.
before anyone asks, I do not work for Big Bear. I do however know them personally through my father's years of extensive business with them. I've bought my fair share of stuff in there also.
And I know who many of them have worked with. And I know they'd never namedrop it like the way Paul Brewer does about this and that. And believe me they could 'afford to' (as Paul would put it).

No they don't have a desperate need to form networks on forums like boards in order to sell gear. They are respected for their excellent service and don't need to be sh1tin on about their visits to the various companies they distribute for (digidesign, genelec, hhb, loads more -you see the point).
It's all about the manner you do things in. Paul you have said that you are here as a pro-audio dealer, so i'm giving you the criticisms that you can only expect to get if you're on here as a representative of a business.

I for one (even without my relationship with Big Bear) would not dream of ever setting foot in an establishment like yours. Simply because of the way you have behaved from the moment you got on here. That's my opinion and i'm afraid i'm entitled to it.

I've indicated my problems with your style of marketing above and I hope you do realise that not everyone is blown away by namedropping and 'pro this/ pro that/pat on the back to the blizzards/sonic safari/here's my picture with rupert neve-aren't i great'.

In fact I'm sure a lot of intelligent rational people just find it a little bit pathetic.

As I said, mods please feel free to delete if you think i have carried out any sort of rulebreaking here. I think what i've said has been civilised and relevant.

Regardless of whether you are right or wrong about Paul's M.O. you seem intent on dragging his name through the mud in a publicly viewable forum, about someone who's using their real name, in a business where so many of us know each other. I'm not sure what your realtionship to BigBear is but I can't see how they would like to see their name used in such a fashion against another memeber of their industry. I am as un-ban weilding a mod as you are likely to find on boards but I'm afraid that I have no choice but to issue a one week ban to you. I hope you'll be back after the week but that you'll more respectful in your posts about how you think others behave.

I'd rather not lock this thread as I think there's still some life left in what has become a hot topic round here. If anyone wants to discuss the banning as part of it please use the feedback forum, not this thread.

ICN

OK - Everyone agrees that this is a community.

Everyone has to get on.

Are both sides going to comprimise?

How are you going to get reconcilliation by banning someone?


Paul seems to have taken it on the chin. Surely the mods can too.

There surely are valid points to be made on both sides??!

The very point of this discussion is to open it up.

Paul began naming names at the start.

Why not censor or warn / ban Paul because possibly Genelec or whoever might not want to be associated with his "signature"?

I think the ban is very repressive.

Just because you have a big stick doesn't mean you have to use it.

Completely unnecessary.

frobisher

ICN wrote: »

OK - Everyone agrees that this is a community.

Everyone has to get on.

Are both sides going to comprimise?

How are you going to get reconcilliation by banning someone?


Paul seems to have taken it on the chin. Surely the mods can too.

There surely are valid points to be made on both sides??!

The very point of this discussion is to open it up.

Paul began naming names at the start.

Why not censor or warn / ban Paul because possibly Genelec or whoever might not want to be associated with his "signature"?

I think the ban is very repressive.

Just because you have a big stick doesn't mean you have to use it.

Completely unnecessary.

There is a place on boards especially for this kind of thing. The feedback forum, take it there if you have an issue with it.

ICN

Like it or not - Its at the very core of what this thread is about.

It really bangs of censorship.

Its completely rational and logical that this should be commented on here in this thread.

How can the non-mods compete with heavy tactics like that?

Enjoy the rest of your weekend everyone.. I'm going down the country on personal business.

henessjon

yes lovely to see some robust views here...

1stly

this forum seems pretty cliquey if you know what i mean

2ndly

i prefer to rub shoulders with people who know what they are talking about



how about us all in the sceret....

if you wanna help us plebs tell us what we are doing wrong.

cornbb

ICN wrote: »

Like it or not - Its at the very core of what this thread is about.

It really bangs of censorship.

Its completely rational and logical that this should be commented on here in this thread.

How can the non-mods compete with heavy tactics like that?

Enjoy the rest of your weekend everyone.. I'm going down the country on personal business.

It should not be commented about in the thread. The Feedback forum is there to discuss these things. jtsuited has already created this thread in the helpdesk: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055246778 If anyone else wants their say, the Feedback forum is the way to do it.

frobisher is right - he was left with no option to do what he did. We facilitated this discussion and appealed to everyone to keep things impersonal several times in the thread. There is no censorship at play - jtsuited has temporarily lost his right to continue participating in this debate through his own actions.

This debate still does have some merit and despite jtsuited's absence there are people here who will argue his side of the debate. We don't ban people willy-nilly - everyone gets their say, as long as they stay within the rules of the charter and stay on topic.

So, back on topic.

I've just come online for the first time in 24 hours and have been amazed to see the place so busy. I think a lot of people are trying to revert to the usual air of civil helpfulness, which is probably a good idea. It seems a sizeable number of forum users would like things to return to normal. That would indeed be great but the topic at hand in this thread needs to be put to bed one way or another.

This has been a difficult situation to moderate and some users feel that the rules of the charter were breached. So here's a straightforward question: does anyone have suggestions as to how the "no commercial posting" aspect of the charter might be clarified or otherwise changed?

Niall - Dahlia

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I guess I'm a victim of my own enthusiasm ! Points note, horns pulled in.
On with the Music...... I'm off to the studio for the day!!

Exactly, just back from a full day myself to find the site busier than it's ever been, but I think I'll give this thread a miss! Thank god for sei's revival threads..

PaulBrewer

henessjon wrote: »

yes lovely to see some robust views here...

1stly

this forum seems pretty cliquey if you know what i mean

2ndly

i prefer to rub shoulders with people who know what they are talking about



how about us all in the sceret....

if you wanna help us plebs tell us what we are doing wrong.

Spelling for a start Jon!!;)

ICN

cornbb wrote: »

This has been a difficult situation to moderate and some users feel that the rules of the charter were breached. So here's a straightforward question: does anyone have suggestions as to how the "no commercial posting" aspect of the charter might be clarified or otherwise changed?

I think that the signatures should be less like free adverts. People usually put their kit list on them - not the gear which they are selling.

Perfectly fine to put a w/site / link to your website (private or business) - Myspace Page / Blog etc.. It is then up to the reader to visit or not.


Out & out "I'm in the business" -esque signatures shouldn't be allowed.

Anything promoting a subscription to a third party equals spamming.

Open days / courses etc.. are fine if in a thread of their own. These are of special interest. You can choose to ignore or read as you wish.

PaulBrewer

ICN wrote: »

I think that the signatures should be less like free adverts. People usually put their kit list on them - not the gear which they are selling.

Perfectly fine to put a w/site / link to your website (private or business) - Myspace Page / Blog etc.. It is then up to the reader to visit or not.


Out & out "I'm in the business" -esque signatures shouldn't be allowed.

Anything promoting a subscription to a third party equals spamming.

Open days / courses etc.. are fine if in a thread of their own. These are of special interest. You can choose to ignore or read as you wish.

"Anything promoting a subscription to a third party equals spamming"

Does this refer to my 'Free Stuff' post?
If it does I fail to see the problem ( though perhaps there is one?) It's simply information where there's free information, no? - and in my opinion much superior to the most popular 'unfree' magazines. We don't advertise in any of them, so I see no conflict of interest. After all if you're not interested, don't subscribe

"Out & out "I'm in the business" -esque signatures shouldn't be allowed."

I disagree - the point of my saying I'm in the biz is to let you as a reader know that's where I'm coming from. You can then raise your eyebrow to the required height, as you see fit.

Anything else would leave me unable to express anything for fear of the dreaded 'Shilling' word getting used. My hands would be completely tied.

Or perhaps you think I and others in similar positions ought not post?

(By the way I'd never even heard the term "Shilling" until last week!)

There seems to be a paranoia around here regarding anyone who isn't a humble question asker - I think I'm a Question Answerer , that seems to threaten some posters in some way I can't understand ?

PaulBrewer

Also hardly anyone puts any info on their profile pages. And where did the whole nickname thing come from?

Why is everyone so shy and secretive?

This isn't a 'Dogging' forum you know, nothing to be ashamed of.

(P.S. I have heard that term before last week!)

ICN

Hi Paul,

I think its in everyones interests to end the ranting and raving. (edit - Your previous post - Not the dogging one!)


Thanks cornbb for the last post - Its nice to see that we're moving on to the next phase.

They're my 2c's for what they're worth. I'm going to let them stand as is, without any more justification. We've been over all of the issues already. We all know eachothers opinions thoroughly now.


Its up to the Mods, or however it works, to do something from here.

PaulBrewer

I think I'll start a Dogging Forum! Might be less fraught!!

PaulBrewer

ICN wrote: »

Hi Paul,



They're my 2c's for what they're worth. I'm going to let them stand as is, without any more justification. .

Explanation is all I desire, no-one has to justify what they think. I just want to understand it!

ICN

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I think I'll start a Dogging Forum! Might be less fraught!!

Signature

Cloth Ears make Nice Cushions...

I should make it clear I'm a Pro-Dogger!
www.DoggingWarehouse.ie

Peace and Goodwill to all Car-Parks ......


LOL

PaulBrewer

ICN wrote: »

Signature

Cloth Ears make Nice Cushions...

I should make it clear I'm a Pro-Dogger!
www.DoggingWarehouse.ie

Peace and Goodwill to all Car-Parks ......


LOL

At least do me the service of explaining your views to me. I ain't looking for a fight and have accepted your criticisms in the past.

It just seems entirely illogical to me!

frobisher

PaulBrewer wrote: »

At least do me the service of explaining your views to me. I ain't looking for a fight and have accepted your criticisms in the past.

It just seems entirely illogical to me!

If it's a direct one on one explanation from someone you're after Paul perhaps a PM is the way to go? Might stop things falling back.

PaulBrewer

frobisher wrote: »

If it's a direct one on one explanation from someone you're after Paul perhaps a PM is the way to go? Might stop things falling back.

Of course! Whatever suits.

ICN

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Of course! Whatever suits.

Please dont - and I sincerely mean that in the nicest of ways.

Its been a long week - I've done a lot of travelling & I'm looking forward to having a shower (not the 1st one this week..) then a cup of tea and a couple of biscuits.

I've then got to put my ahem, studio - back together after getting new floors in over the weekend. I'm a broken man!


I know you have taken points on board before Paul - No probs there.

Explaining things point for point (again) is not going to move this forward.


I agree with you that the profile page is being underutilised.. and possibly its where some of this "controversial" stuff belongs.. info about the poster.

AND, its up to everyone as to how they wish to be identified - or not.


The whole point of this discussion was to see if a change was needed..

I dont think that it would be beneficial to ban / chase away or get rid of anyone who wants to participate.. thats not the objective of this at all.

Adapt to survive.

PaulBrewer

Come on now! Have a wash and start typing!

...

Ah whatever suits, Chief!

I'm great at adapting so survival ain't the issue.

Back to my "Importing Ivory" Forum where everything is simple an clear cut!

ICN

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Come on now! Have a wash and start typing!

Hahaha! - I gave you that one!

Phase one completed - Now for the tea & Boasters.



btw.. Lets hear some other opinions for possible rule changes.

jtsuited - If you're out there Man - I'll keep a blank post aside for when you get back to us!!

cornbb

Signature rules apply on a boards-wise basis and aren't decided upon forum-to-forum. They are here if anyone is interested. They are a bit vague but I'm glad the "common sense" aspect of it is being applied.

As for the "free stuff" thread - if, as Paul says, he doesn't advertise in them then there doesn't appear to be a conflict of interest. A thread title like "Free stuff for you" will naturally raise eyebrows though, given the spam-swamped nature of the internet these days.

As for the way everyone uses nicknames - Paul, have you been on the internet long at all?

Glad to see things are moving along. Now is the time to suggest new rules and policies for the forum if anyone wants a say.

trackmixstudio

WOW
I haven't looked here for a couple of days then I see this thread.
Talk about OTT.
The irony of it, as I have previously posted, is the "tips and pointers" sticky thread, in which cornbb, the mod, links everything to Thomann!
Paul is a valuable poster here and the fact that he is a pro audio dealer is not a big deal. The way he is being treated in this thread is crazy.
Its not like he is posting stock lists or plugging his wares. Although I don't have time to attend any of the demos he posts about here, I think people into music production would benefit from the demos.
For example, when Paul mentioned the SSL demo, rather than trying to push sales (he knows not many people are going to splash out on SSL), he mentioned that it was a chance to see a pro studio.
I have not frequented this forum for very long but there are not many regulars and the same names are here all the time. For anyone to pick a fight here and have a childish name calling spat in a public forum is way below the standards I would expect. I don't know Paul personally, but he has every right to defend himself and his reputation. I think the mod should have locked the thread at the first sign of trouble to preserve the integrity of the forum.
People think they are anonymous on forums such as this, but although the forum is (normally) not liable for individual's comments, those individuals are personally liable. I recently threatened legal action against a group of individuals (on another forum) regarding libelous comments made about me and they got the posts removed because they knew I meant it.
A music production forum is going to mention gear. It is terribly useful to have people around who know what they are talking about in this regard. If I were to recommend an item of equipment and link to dv247 etc. am I breaking the rules, or is it ok because I don't gain anything from linking?.
I am out of here, never to be seen again, if this sh1t carries on.
I would strongly suggest this topic gets locked or deleted now.
Michael

Sherifu

Wait till you read the feedback thread It explains why this thread is here I guess.

frobisher

trackmixstudio wrote: »

WOW
I haven't looked here for a couple of days then I see this thread.
Talk about OTT.
The irony of it, as I have previously posted, is the "tips and pointers" sticky thread, in which cornbb, the mod, links everything to Thomann!
Paul is a valuable poster here and the fact that he is a pro audio dealer is not a big deal. The way he is being treated in this thread is crazy.
Its not like he is posting stock lists or plugging his wares. Although I don't have time to attend any of the demos he posts about here, I think people into music production would benefit from the demos.
For example, when Paul mentioned the SSL demo, rather than trying to push sales (he knows not many people are going to splash out on SSL), he mentioned that it was a chance to see a pro studio.
I have not frequented this forum for very long but there are not many regulars and the same names are here all the time. For anyone to pick a fight here and have a childish name calling spat in a public forum is way below the standards I would expect. I don't know Paul personally, but he has every right to defend himself and his reputation. I think the mod should have locked the thread at the first sign of trouble to preserve the integrity of the forum.
People think they are anonymous on forums such as this, but although the forum is (normally) not liable for individual's comments, those individuals are personally liable. I recently threatened legal action against a group of individuals (on another forum) regarding libelous comments made about me and they got the posts removed because they knew I meant it.
A music production forum is going to mention gear. It is terribly useful to have people around who know what they are talking about in this regard. If I were to recommend an item of equipment and link to dv247 etc. am I breaking the rules, or is it ok because I don't gain anything from linking?.
I am out of here, never to be seen again, if this sh1t carries on.
I would strongly suggest this topic gets locked or deleted now.
Michael

Please read posts 21 and 67 in this thread in particular. As mentioned above, if you wish to discuss this you can do so, but use the feedback forum. Although I think everybody has pretty much had enough of it by this stage. I don't know how long you've been away and what you've missed but threads have been locked, bans issued and posts deleted a plenty already. Enough already.

There are some great threads on the board right now, let's stick to them. As said above, if we can't stay OT this thread will be locked.