Is this forum getting too commercial?

PaulBrewer

trackmixstudio wrote: »

WOW
I haven't looked here for a couple of days then I see this thread.
Talk about OTT.
The irony of it, as I have previously posted, is the "tips and pointers" sticky thread, in which cornbb, the mod, links everything to Thomann!
Paul is a valuable poster here and the fact that he is a pro audio dealer is not a big deal. The way he is being treated in this thread is crazy.
Its not like he is posting stock lists or plugging his wares. Although I don't have time to attend any of the demos he posts about here, I think people into music production would benefit from the demos.
For example, when Paul mentioned the SSL demo, rather than trying to push sales (he knows not many people are going to splash out on SSL), he mentioned that it was a chance to see a pro studio.
I have not frequented this forum for very long but there are not many regulars and the same names are here all the time. For anyone to pick a fight here and have a childish name calling spat in a public forum is way below the standards I would expect. I don't know Paul personally, but he has every right to defend himself and his reputation. I think the mod should have locked the thread at the first sign of trouble to preserve the integrity of the forum.
People think they are anonymous on forums such as this, but although the forum is (normally) not liable for individual's comments, those individuals are personally liable. I recently threatened legal action against a group of individuals (on another forum) regarding libelous comments made about me and they got the posts removed because they knew I meant it.
A music production forum is going to mention gear. It is terribly useful to have people around who know what they are talking about in this regard. If I were to recommend an item of equipment and link to dv247 etc. am I breaking the rules, or is it ok because I don't gain anything from linking?.
I am out of here, never to be seen again, if this sh1t carries on.
I would strongly suggest this topic gets locked or deleted now.
Michael

Cheers

cornbb

I'd just like to clarify that the "tips & pointers" post I wrote mentioned by trackmixstudio was written before I was a mod, and I did preface all the Thomann links by mentioning that they were just a handy way of quickly indicating guideline prices and not an endorsement. This is a common practice on many of the music forums, it shouldn't be interpreted as an endorsement by boards.ie or its moderators.

As frobisher said, I think most posters have had their say on this thread. I think that the issue has been thrashed out pretty well and that both sides probably now have a better understanding of where the other side is coming from. We have also seen some positive changes in several users' posting styles, which I would regard as a sign that this thread is having a good outcome.

In order to keep being constructive and to keep on-topic, I'd suggest that we now focus on ideas on how to prevent this sort of, how do I put it, "ambiguity" in the future. Although a certain amount of flexibility and interpretation is always required when enforcing the rules, the rules can be changed if a suitable consensus is reached as I mentioned in one of my first posts in this thread. I haven't seen such a consensus emerge yet - if anyone would like the rules to change, now is the time to throw those ideas out there and discuss them. I'm sure everyone would rather we put this to bed either way sooner rather than later.

trackmixstudio

Re constant linking to Thomann.
I don't like the way people constantly link to Thomann.
I own a musical instrument shop in Dublin, although I have never mentioned it to this point, because I feel it is not relevant in a music production forum.
Thomann is causing serious damage to the Irish economy as far as musical instrument and high tech retail goes. Competition is a good thing and Thomann have really shaken things up all over Europe with the result that you can buy most things locally at the same (or very close to) price.
What the local retailer gives you is the kind of after sales service that a box shifter like Thomann will never give you.
People have defended themselves when I have brought this up saying it is convenient. In answer to this, I will use the example of an Apogee Ensemble interface.

Thomann link:
http://www.thomann.de/ie/apogee_ensemble.htm
Apogee's own website:
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/ensemble.php

It is clear that Apogee's own site has much more in depth information about the product than Thomann's short piece about it.
After reading about the product on Apogee's own website, the person interested in buying one can then conduct their own research and decide who to buy from. Therefore I think it is anticompetitive to link to Thomann.

The policies of this board are very strong when it comes to promoting your own services or products yet there seems to be no problem with endorsing Thomann. If Hans Thomann came on here and started linking to his site there would be uproar and rightly so.

I feel, very strongly, that the policy here should be not to endorse any particular retailer and let people make up their own mind where to buy from.

Michael

cornbb

Ok, a couple of things:

- You're dead right, if someone from Thomann came along here explicitly touting their gear they would be kicked off the forum before you could blink. But they haven't been. So no problem there.
- People are free to come along and recommend any manufacturer/retailer/business they like as long as they don't have any commercial motive for doing so (i.e. as long as they are not shills). There have been several cases of people coming along to recommend Irish retailers within the past week, as a matter of fact. There's a world of difference between recommending/slating a company you have merely dealt and don't work for, and touting the services of a company you are working for.
- You mention competitiveness. If we were to ban linking to Thomann pages when mentioning products etc, it would only be fair/non-competitive of us to ban linking to pages of other retailers too. I don't think that is very realistic.
- There is no policy in place endorsing thomann or anyone else, and in fact people aren't even in the habit of coming along and endorsing thomann. The links in my and sei046's posts aren't endorsements, we both made that explicitly clear. There is just a convention of linking to them for getting a quick guideline price (e.g. giving people an idea of whether the soundcard they want will cost them €100 or €1000). Anyone who doesn't have the sense to shop around for different prices and reviews deserves to get shafted somewhere along the line IMO...

trackmixstudio

Very soon there will have to be links to Thomann because there will be no local retailers left.
Here is a link to www.studiosolutions.ie
Darren is a friend of mine and he doesn't post here AFAIK.
He has a great selection of high tech gear and his prices and customer service are first class, yet he is loosing sales to Thomann through this board because he is not linked to.
I just feel that it would be a good idea to support the local economy rather than linking to foreign retailers all the time. Especially as regards to people who are new to the recording game. They probably think (reading this site) that you can't get this stuff in Ireland and you have to order from abroad.
I think a sticky linking to Irish retailers who stock high tech gear would level the playing field a bit as I understand that you can't stop people linking to thomann yet you frown upon local retailers linking to their own services/products.
I would be interested to see more opinions about this.
Michael

cornbb

Look, I do empathise with your position and I can see how all the Thomann links around the place would annoy you. I just don't see what sort of rule would fairly put an end to that. Its up to individual posters who they link to, as long as they're not pimping their own stuff. I feel its up to the individual. I'll make an effort not to do so myself in the future but I don't think we can realistically introduce a policy against it.

~Edit~ I just posted before reading your last reply. We have a resources sticky already - people are free to put together a list of Irish/European retailers up there, as long as its somewhat impartial. We frown upon people linking to their own services/businesses for obvious reasons but even so we have provided a thread for people to do so ("pimp my services").

white_falcon

I think its good that this has been all out in the open, and now everyone can hopefully keep in mind what has been said and all sit back and chillax now

ICN

Hey White Falcon - That Fluidity tune is cool.. I like the sorta Steve Reich in it..

Now lets get back on topic!

PaulBrewer

trackmixstudio wrote: »

Very soon there will have to be links to Thomann because there will be no local retailers left.
Here is a link to www.studiosolutions.ie
Darren is a friend of mine and he doesn't post here AFAIK.
He has a great selection of high tech gear and his prices and customer service are first class, yet he is loosing sales to Thomann through this board because he is not linked to.
I just feel that it would be a good idea to support the local economy rather than linking to foreign retailers all the time. Especially as regards to people who are new to the recording game. They probably think (reading this site) that you can't get this stuff in Ireland and you have to order from abroad.
I think a sticky linking to Irish retailers who stock high tech gear would level the playing field a bit as I understand that you can't stop people linking to thomann yet you frown upon local retailers linking to their own services/products.
I would be interested to see more opinions about this.
Michael

Michael plants the Kick on the 'One' one more time.

Darren's a great guy with whom I did quite a bit of business with when I had my own facility.
We still do business with each other's companies now.

PaulBrewer

trackmixstudio wrote: »

Re constant linking to Thomann.
I don't like the way people constantly link to Thomann.
I own a musical instrument shop in Dublin, although I have never mentioned it to this point, because I feel it is not relevant in a music production forum.
Thomann is causing serious damage to the Irish economy as far as musical instrument and high tech retail goes. Competition is a good thing and Thomann have really shaken things up all over Europe with the result that you can buy most things locally at the same (or very close to) price.
What the local retailer gives you is the kind of after sales service that a box shifter like Thomann will never give you.
People have defended themselves when I have brought this up saying it is convenient. In answer to this, I will use the example of an Apogee Ensemble interface.

Thomann link:
http://www.thomann.de/ie/apogee_ensemble.htm
Apogee's own website:
http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/ensemble.php

It is clear that Apogee's own site has much more in depth information about the product than Thomann's short piece about it.
After reading about the product on Apogee's own website, the person interested in buying one can then conduct their own research and decide who to buy from. Therefore I think it is anticompetitive to link to Thomann.

The policies of this board are very strong when it comes to promoting your own services or products yet there seems to be no problem with endorsing Thomann. If Hans Thomann came on here and started linking to his site there would be uproar and rightly so.

I feel, very strongly, that the policy here should be not to endorse any particular retailer and let people make up their own mind where to buy from.

Michael

Michael is a Poet, and I bet he doesn't know it.

unclebill98

Ok, can we end this ****e now..... I for one have had enough of it.

Savman

trackmixstudio wrote: »

.
Thomann is causing serious damage to the Irish economy as far as musical instrument and high tech retail goes.

Oh boo hoo, my heart bleeds for you all. Everyone has welcomed Thoman and Music Store's arrival, except Irish Music Store Retailers. Why do you think that is, because you guys know best? Or because yiz had it so cushty for so long I suspect.

trackmixstudio wrote:

Competition is a good thing and Thomann have really shaken things up all over Europe with the result that you can buy most things locally at the same (or very close to) price.

Kinda contradicting yourself there boss.

trackmixstudio wrote:

What the local retailer gives you is the kind of after sales service that a box shifter like Thomann will never give you.

ROFL
Mudslinging now eh? I suppose the local retailers aren't sales driven. :rolleyes:

For anyone who couldn't be arsed to read the endless thread on Feedback I would like to make perfectly clear that I never once issued any personal insults to Paul Brewer or anybody. The crap that went on in the last week really opened my eyes, so my involvement on the MP board will most likely be as a lurker in future, just not worth the hassle. Sorry for chiming in on the subject so late but the powers that be had me silenced for the past week

cornbb

I think this thread has run its course. Everyone has had their say or had their chance to do so re. rule changes etc and I feel people are just using it as an opportunity to get digs in now. Some progress was made a few pages back and some lessons were learned. Lets try to take those positive things from this thread.

If anyone thinks they have anything new and productive to add to this thread (and I mean *genuinely* new and productive) please PM me and I'll consider re-opening it. Otherwise, everyone try to get along. The forum is growing nicely so lets leave differences at the door and talk Music Production.