Planning permission - exemptions??

lolo2116

Hi

Just been informed by Fingal Co Co that our estate requires planning permission for any form of additional development to existing property - even if it is small and within the limitations that usually exempt planning permission. It was a condition that was put in when the developers of the estate were looking for planning permission - but we were never told when we bought the house. It is the first time I heard of it - has anyone else come across it before?

Victor

I've not heard of such a condition before. You should be able to find the original planning permission on the Fingal website or at tehir planning office, depending on how old it is.

However, certain areas will be conservation areas and the normal exemptions won't apply, the same with individual or groups of listed buildings. Can you imagine Anto adding his pigeon loft to the Casino in Malahide?

antoinolachtnai

Did FCC write to you and tell you this?

What year was your property built? Could make a difference. If it was built before the current legislation, the current legislation probably trumps it.

What is the estate like? Is it very dense?

lolo2116

We rang FCC to three weeks ago to enquire whether or not we needed planning permission and were told that we didn't. It was a neighbour who called in last night and mentioned it. We contacted FCC today and they sent us the link to the website which outlined the conditions that were attached to the planning permission granted to the developer of the estate.

It isn't a listed building - or a conservation area. It is an estate in Dub 15 - which has high density. Regardless, this was a condition that we were never told about - though I guess the developer isn't going to bring this to your attention when purchasing. It just seems so deceitful, the lack of transparency is very unfair. We always planned to build on a small extension and would of reconsidered buying in this estate had we known this from the outset.

The_Conductor

There are rules regarding the amount of garden and open space that must be present per dwelling and then also per number of bedrooms in the dwelling. In high density situations- you are probably right up at the limits before you do anything at all. Its unfortunate. I don't think the builder was being deceitful by not mentioning it- however if it was your intention to build an extension on the house when you were originally buying it, you really should have enquired from the outset.

lolo2116

As I said in the original post, the floor area is under the limitations that requires planning permission - the remaining garden area would be over 25sq meters, as required - and according to the planning Act, it should be exempt from planning permission. After speaking to someone in the Dept. of Environment I was told that the local authorities are within their remit to add any conditions they like when granting planning permission - and these conditions supercede the planning Act. The Dept. thought it was a strange condition also - for an extension the size that we wanted to build

This is not our first house - and when buying our first house, we didn't look at the developers planning permission application either. I don't think many people are aware that the local authority can add whatever conditions they wish - nor are many people aware that these conditions supercede legislation. Not anyone that I have spoken to about this anyway.

That said, yes, it is a lesson learned. But I do think it wasn't very transparent.

antoinolachtnai

Did the DoE guy say what gave the Local Authority that remit? The LA is seriously limited in what it can do in many respects. Some of the powers of LA's are imagined rather than real. Has the LA been explicitly been granted the power to limit exempted develop? You would need to read the act carefully. I had a quick look through the act and regulation, but I don't see that they have this explicit power. In another case, the local authority is empowered to make conditions to the contrary (electrical works less than 40m), but not as regards building in the curtilage of a house.

I wouldn't give up hope. I'd say myself that this is worth investigating a little bit further. Could be expensive though, you might need to get specialized legal advice. Might be worth it if it saves you and your neighbours having to move house.

lolo2116

No, the DoE lady just said that it is within their remit. Here is the wording of the condition:

Condition Having regard to the provision of small rear garden sizes and narrow frontage houses, notwithstanding the exempted development provisions of the Planning and Development Regulations 2001 (or any amendment or replacement of the said regulations), no additional development whatsoever shall take place within the curtilage of each house save with a prior grant of planning permission. Reason: In the interests of the proper and orderly development of the area.

Although the rear gardens are not very big, the remaining garden would have been over 25sq metres, which therefore usually renders it exempted from planning permission.

Victor

I think the council was just marking cards, so as to prevent a free for all.

I think just apply for PP and see how it goes.

What is the distance to the houses behind you?

lolo2116

There is a car park between the houses behind us so you are talking about approx 60metres.

Hope you are right as we intend on applying for planning permission. Just have the expense though of getting plans drawn up and the delay in waiting to hear decision.
Thanks for your opinion - much appreciated.

Will keep you posted!

jdivision

lolo2116 wrote: »

It just seems so deceitful, the lack of transparency is very unfair. We always planned to build on a small extension and would of reconsidered buying in this estate had we known this from the outset.

In fairness, there is no lack of transparency it was there in black and white if you had taken the trouble to check when you were buying. Hopefully you get planning anyway. I can understand why they made it a condition - you could end up with an estate with extensions of different sizes and shapes using different materials. That wouldn't look great.

Victor

lolo2116 wrote: »

There is a car park between the houses behind us so you are talking about approx 60metres.

I had a think about this.

It is probably because the back of houses are visible from common areas as opposed to just other people back gardens that they want to keep control on the style, colour, materials, etc.

lolo2116

jdivision wrote: »

there is no lack of transparency it was there in black and white if you had taken the trouble to check when you were buying.

When buying the house we did look up the NDP for the area as regards schools,infrastructure, etc...

We didn't look up the planning permission that the developers were granted to check for conditions. To be honest I didn't realise they could do such a thing - that's why I originally posted to see of others had come across this. As a lay person, I only consulted the Planning Act. If the local authorities can add on any conditions they wish that take precedence over the Planning Act, then what's the point in having legislation there is the first place.

snellers

unless I am missing something why not have a pre-planning meet with the planner? - it's free and you wont have to go to the expense of detailed drawings....

lolo2116

Just rang the planning office to request a pre-planning meeting. They said that they require plans to be drawn up to scale prior to agreeing to a meeting. They also advised us to check with the water and drainage section to check where the drainage pipes are running as according to them, our estate is unique in that generally drainage is to the front of the house, but it is at the rear of our houses, and this could mean that planning permission is refused, depending on how close the pipes are to the house.

Thanks anyway - it was worth a try!

Victor

lolo2116 wrote: »

but it is at the rear of our houses, and this could mean that planning permission is refused, depending on how close the pipes are to the house.

This may make things more complicated, but isn't a complete stop. If your neighbours drainage is under your back garden, its more of a problem, otherwise its a fairly standard thing to work around.

lolo2116

Hopefully you are right.

They were very helpful and they have even said that they will arrange for an engineer to call in and take a look. They reckon PP will be granted, once drainage pipes are not under or too near the proposed extension. Actually, they said that the water pipe wouldn't be a problem - just the sewer pipe. Fingers crossed!