33 Palestians/8 Israelis murdered and how the media reacts

Macha

bartholomewbinn wrote: »

It couldn’t be anymore straight forward. The USA supports them totally and unconditionally with money and military hardware. Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget.
http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm
So, as far as the Palestinian innocent victims of this ethnic cleansing and slaughter are concerned, their blood is very much on American hands. They are being attacked with American military hard ware, paid for with American taxpayer’s money. Shame on them indeed.

I understand what you're saying. I agree that Israel probably wouldn't be able to survive without US aid. I heard the other day a guy from Sustainable Energy Ireland saying that Ireland has the most isolated energy grid, apart from Israel. They're totally surrounded by countries that wish they didn't exist. Still, I think Israel has to bear a large amount of the blame (and Hamas)

Hmm OK. So what is your opinion of US attempts to broker peace talks between the two?

A Dub in Glasgo

Israel = A terrorist state

LordSutch

You mess with the sleeping Tiger (Israel) & you get whats coming your way.

If the dickheads in Gaza wearnt sending mortars into Israel then Israel would have no need to mop-up . . . .

P.S. Its also not fair on the civilian population of Gaza who are receiving the wrath of the Israeli 'pay-back' due to those unscrupulous wan***s who like to shell Israel from Gaza.

Macha

ArthurF wrote: »

You mess with the sleeping Tiger (Israel) & you get whats coming your way.

If the dickheads in Gaza wearnt sending mortars into Israel then Israel would have no need to mop-up . . . .

P.S. Its also not fair on the civilian population of Gaza who are receiving the wrath of the Israeli 'pay-back' due to those unscrupulous wan***s who like to shell Israel from Gaza.

Oh right so Gazans should just give up should they? "What's that, Israel? You want all of our land? Why didn't you say so before you killed thousands of us? Go right ahead".

They resort to suicide bombers because of feelings of frustration and desperation.

You're very quick to speak about the 'dickheads' in Gaza. What about the 'dickheads' in Israel who build a huge wall in a pathetic attempt at a land-grab? What about arrogant Israelis who think it is (literally) their god-given right to own all Palestinian lands? What about Israelis who think its OK to condemn Palestinian suicide-bombers who target civilians but conveniently ignore the fact that they have killed easily 10 TIMES more Palestinian civilians? Oh they weren't targeting them? - that's OK then I'll be sure to tell their families.

Edit: 'pay-back' time? What is this, a Rambo movie? I thought most intelligent, sentient beings had dropped the pointless, self-perpetuating idea of 'pay-back'. According to your logic of 'pay-back', then Gazans are justified in returning fire ad infinitum. Not really my idea of a good way to put an end to violence...

Clytus

Exactly Arthur!!

Like a jack russell nipping at a Rottweiler...he may tolerate it for a time..but when he bites back its gonna hurt.

So today we have the UN criticising Israel for using excessive force eh!!
If I was an Israeli citizen Id be pretty pissed if I thought the nations armed forces who are charged with defending my life,my fellow citizens lives and the peace and security of my country were holding off on a decisive and devestating blow against my enemies because some people think "its just not fair,they have bigger and better guns".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j68nFQ20o0s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCHbihJImGo&feature=related

Clytus

"What's that, Israel? You want all of our land? Why didn't you say so before you killed thousands of us? Go right ahead".

I think your missing the fact that Israel aquired the West Bank and Gaza only after Israel was attacked by Egypt and Jordan in the 6 day war. And she aquired the Golan heights from Syria after she was shelled from positions on the Golan heights by Syria. Israel removed all its military forces from the Westbank and Gaza in 2005 to give the area autonomy...but that wasnt good enough for Hamas...they picked a fight with Israel...and are now crying genocide when Isarel hits back.

Hamas like Islamic Jihad are terrorist organisations that feel nothing for thier own people...they daily put them in harms way. Israel is dead right in its actions.

Macha

Clytus wrote: »

Like a jack russell nipping at a Rottweiler...he may tolerate it for a time..but when he bites back its gonna hurt.

Interestingly, this sort of condescending rhetoric is very similar to that used by Russia against Georgia, which can be sumarised as Russia viewing Georgia as a 'naughty child' that has been 'misbehaving' and must be 'punished'.

I don't think you could be more condescending to the Palestinians if you tried.

Macha

Clytus wrote: »

I think your missing the fact that Israel aquired the West Bank and Gaza only after Israel was attacked by Egypt and Jordan in the 6 day war. And she aquired the Golan heights from Syria after she was shelled from positions on the Golan heights by Syria. Israel removed all its military forces from the Westbank and Gaza in 2005 to give the area autonomy...but that wasnt good enough for Hamas...they picked a fight with Israel...and are now crying genocide when Isarel hits back.

Hamas like Islamic Jihad are terrorist organisations that feel nothing for thier own people...they daily put them in harms way. Israel is dead right in its actions.

Please tell me you're joking. Um..are you aware of how the Israeli state was founded? And are you aware of where Israel gets all of its military power?

A Dub in Glasgo

taconnol wrote: »

Interestingly, this sort of condescending rhetoric is very similar to that used by Russia against Georgia, which can be sumarised as Russia viewing Georgia as a 'naughty child' that has been 'misbehaving' and must be 'punished'.

I don't think you could be more condescending to the Palestinians if you tried.

As evidenced in this thread, some people do not give a flying **** about the slaughter of people as long as the Palestinians are the ones who are being slaughtered.

LordSutch

And some people obviously dont give a flying **** about Israel or its security & its right to exist ...........

djpbarry

taconnol wrote: »

They resort to suicide bombers because of feelings of frustration and desperation.

Right, so they're desperate, frustrated murdering scum.

Clytus wrote: »

So today we have the UN criticising Israel for using excessive force eh!!

Yes. Yes we do, and rightly so. Lebanon (twice) is a case in point.

Clytus wrote: »

I think your missing the fact that Israel aquired the West Bank and Gaza only after Israel was attacked by Egypt and Jordan in the 6 day war.

What the hell difference does that make? Iraq "acquired" Kuwait during the first Gulf War - was Saddam entitled to keep it?

Macha

ArthurF wrote: »

And some people obviously dont give a flying **** about Israel or its security & its right to exist ...........

Funnily enough, I do think that Israel has the right to exist today. Even though I don't think it should never have been founded in the first place.

But I'm more worried about the shocking living conditions and huge casualties that are being suffered by the Palestinians. Let's take a look at a Palestinian street as compared to an Israeli street:





I know where I would rather live. Israel has the right to exist but it doesn't have the right to strangle the Palestinian state. And they certainly don't have the right to occupy land that doesn't belong to them.

I mean do you really accept those Israelis who quote the bible as their justification for illegally occupying Palestinian land? The bible??

bartholomewbinn

ArthurF wrote: »

And some people obviously dont give a flying **** about Israel or its security & its right to exist ...........

It doesn’t really matter if I or any other individual gives a flying **** about Israel or its right to exist. But the biggest bully in the world (USA) does, and that’s all that matters in the long run. Israel is a cowardly murderous country that is literally getting away with mass murder because the USA allows them to.

LordSutch

I do know that Israeli's dont like rockets being fired from Gaza into Israel, I also defend the right that Israel ~ (if provoked enough) has the right to defend herself against the 'constant threat' ..................

I do however agree that the Palistinians could be treated better, and that they should have a better deal, so I am not totally Anti- Palistinian or against the Palistinians, its just that I can see why Israel retaliates every so often in the face of provocation in the form (Rockets from Gaza), or in previous times 'Suicide Bombers'.

bartholomewbinn

Hmm OK. So what is your opinion of US attempts to broker peace talks between the two?
A load of absolute cobblers, a sickening smoke screen to try and persuade the civilized world that they are trying to stop the genocide. If they want to stop the murderous Israeli child killers, all the US president has to do is pick up the phone. I know its George W and he’s not the sharpest tool in the box, but I’m sure some one in the white house could dial the number for him.

gurramok

ArthurF wrote: »

I do know that Israeli's dont like rockets being fired from Gaza into Israel, I also defend the right that Israel ~ (if provoked enough) has the right to defend herself against the 'constant threat' ..................

I do however agree that the Palistinians could be treated better, and that they should have a better deal, so I am not totally Anti- Palistinian or against the Palistinians, its just that I can see why Israel retaliates every so often in the face of provocation in the form (Rockets from Gaza), or in previous times 'Suicide Bombers'.

So that justifies killing kids then?...8 children slaughtered on Saturday alone.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7273520.stm

When an army kills innocents and especially kids, they lose the moral high ground. Agree?

Thing is, the UN secretary general also disagrees with you.

Clytus

taconnol wrote: »

Please tell me you're joking. Um..are you aware of how the Israeli state was founded? And are you aware of where Israel gets all of its military power?

Following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire ,the British Palestine Mandate strived to create a homeland for the Jewish people alongside the arab population...but of course the Arabs caused the trouble again and forced Breat Britian to abandon its adminisrtaion of the area....then the UN in 1947 decided it was best to split the region in 2...hence the creation of Israel.

The Jewish people have claims over the Holy Lands dating back nearly 3000 years....so I really dont think the argument of "I was here first" on the Arabs part serves any purpose.

What the hell difference does that make? Iraq "acquired" Kuwait during the first Gulf War - was Saddam entitled to keep it?

Israel never entered a war of expansion with its Arab neighbours...they fought for thier right to exist. The six day war was the third time the Arabs had fought the Israelis...and once again got thier asses kicked.

Now it doesnt take a military genius to work out that to diminish a threat to your homeland and to your nations capital ( Jerusalem nearly fell during the Yom Kippur war) that to maintain a buffer zone between your own State and your enemies you be in your best interest. And thats what Israel did.

Mr.Micro

bartholomewbinn wrote: »

It doesn’t really matter if I or any other individual gives a flying **** about Israel or its right to exist. But the biggest bully in the world (USA) does, and that’s all that matters in the long run. Israel is a cowardly murderous country that is literally getting away with mass murder because the USA allows them to.

I have never agreed with Israel's policy of attack first and questions later, but Israel is in a very difficult situation where it exists in a fragile flux. As long as the Palestinians are an impoverished people and neither side will concede and recognize that the other exists, regardless of historical precedents as to the entitlement of the territories, then this conflict will continue. The US has failed miserably IMO to broker any sort of deal or workable compromise between the 2 sides despite all the cheap talk. Israel exists, and the Palestinians need to accept that and vice versa the Israelis need to start helping the Palestinians to get some sort of compromise.

bartholomewbinn

Leaving all this 3000 years and other biblical rubbish aside, you never answered the question “are you aware of where Israel gets all of its military power?”

bartholomewbinn

gurramok wrote: »

So that justifies killing kids then?...8 children slaughtered on Saturday alone.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7273520.stm

When an army kills innocents and especially kids, they lose the moral high ground. Agree?

Thing is, the UN secretary general also disagrees with you.

It doesn’t make a blind bit of difference if the UN secretary general agrees with you or not, the USA agrees with Israel and that’s all that matters. Where Israel is concerned the UN is just a joke. It’s a joke at the best of times, but where Israeli child murderers are concerned, it’s a very sick joke.

Clytus

The USA being an ally of Israel sends billions of Dollars in aid to Israel every year. Surely every nation has the right to look after its nations best interests.
In this case its having an ally in the middle east with Israel.

But the World and this includes the USA were sending billions of dollars in aid to the Palestians aswell. But the people there voted an International terrorist organisation into power -Hamas!! The US warned that the group was on an International list of terrorist organisations that if voted into power would result in the turning off of the aid taps.

Israel has the right to defend its people by whatever means it deems effective.

djpbarry

Clytus wrote: »

Following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire ,the British Palestine Mandate strived to create a homeland for the Jewish people alongside the arab population...but of course the Arabs caused the trouble again and forced Breat Britian to abandon its adminisrtaion of the area....

You have a very rosy picture of Israel and it's history, I must say. It was actually the Jewish community that was attempting to topple British rule; the Jewish (or Hebrew) Resistance Movement was an umbrella group for paramilitaries that co-ordinated attacks against the British military.

Clytus wrote: »

The Jewish people have claims over the Holy Lands dating back nearly 3000 years....

Irrelevant.

Clytus wrote: »

Now it doesnt take a military genius to work out that to diminish a threat to your homeland and to your nations capital ( Jerusalem nearly fell during the Yom Kippur war) that to maintain a buffer zone between your own State and your enemies you be in your best interest. And thats what Israel did.

Again, irrelevant. You made the point that certain territories were acquired by Israel following conflicts with neighbouring states - so what? Israel is currently occupying land outside the UN-recognised international boundary of the State of Israel.

Mr.Micro

Israel would not allow a multi National Peace keeping force to try and keep peace either, partly because a) it would curtail Israel's military responses and b) possibly allow Hisbollah to attack Israelis behind a peace keeping force. So at the minute its a no win situation. The US will back Israel, as its a US ally, and the historical fact of how the Jewish people were treated, plus the powerful Jewish lobby in the US Administration. What is needed is a third way that can only be brokered if all sides agree to try and reach a settlement 2008 status, not going back to Biblical times.

djpbarry

Clytus wrote: »

The US warned that the group was on an International list of terrorist organisations that if voted into power would result in the turning off of the aid taps.

Which is complete hypocrisy; "Make sure your elections are democratic, but make sure you vote for someone WE like!"

bartholomewbinn

Clytus wrote: »

The USA being an ally of Israel sends billions of Dollars in aid to Israel every year. Surely every nation has the right to look after its nations best interests.
In this case its having an ally in the middle east with Israel.

But the World and this includes the USA were sending billions of dollars in aid to the Palestians aswell. But the people there voted an International terrorist organisation into power -Hamas!! The US warned that the group was on an International list of terrorist organisations that if voted into power would result in the turning off of the aid taps.

Israel has the right to defend its people by whatever means it deems effective.

So, using your logic then, Hamas has the right to defend the Palestinian people with what ever means it deems effective?

Playboy

Clytus wrote: »

Following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire ,the British Palestine Mandate strived to create a homeland for the Jewish people alongside the arab population...but of course the Arabs caused the trouble again and forced Breat Britian to abandon its adminisrtaion of the area....then the UN in 1947 decided it was best to split the region in 2...hence the creation of Israel.

Haha are u fckin serious???? Really are you? You are either (a) jewish, (b) Israeli or (c) the worst and most biased historian I have ever come across.

The Zionists wanted Palestine for a long time and they cheated, bribed, murdered, stole and lobbied till they got it. End of. If you think any differently you either cant read history or you are brainwashed. The Irish people on this board have no reason to be anti Israeli and pro Palestinian. The fact that the large majority understand the creation and continued existence of Israel in completely opposite terms to you should indicate that your version of history and events today seems to be more than a little skewed. The UN including almost every nation in the world is in agreement on Israel apart from Israel itself and the US. The only reason the US has any interest in Israel is because the most powerful lobby group in Washington is a jewish one.

See here

Clytus wrote:

The Jewish people have claims over the Holy Lands dating back nearly 3000 years....so I really dont think the argument of "I was here first" on the Arabs part serves any purpose.

Again .. Are you fckin serious???? Something like 90% of the Israeli population are not religious .. but yet its people quote the Torah as a source of their right to the land??? The jews marched in there supposedly under Moses and conquered the native peoples. Since then what is now Israel or Palestine has changed hands numerous times but it is indisputable that the native arab population have been there for centuries and that Palestine is their homeland and not some blow in Jewish Zionists who thinks he is entitled to it because his ancestors (probably not even ancestors .. most Israelis are converted european jews) used to live there in some period of ancient history.

Clytus wrote:

Israel never entered a war of expansion with its Arab neighbours...they fought for thier right to exist. The six day war was the third time the Arabs had fought the Israelis...and once again got thier asses kicked.

Now it doesnt take a military genius to work out that to diminish a threat to your homeland and to your nations capital ( Jerusalem nearly fell during the Yom Kippur war) that to maintain a buffer zone between your own State and your enemies you be in your best interest. And thats what Israel did.

Again the language you use speaks volumes about you .. "kicked their assess"??? Is this some kind of personal victory for you or something? Israel has expanded, is still expanding and it uses the media to fool people like yourself into believing the sort of crap that you come on here and write. Pick up a history book that is not written by some US or Israeli apologist or propogandist.

Macha

Clytus wrote: »

Following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire ,the British Palestine Mandate strived to create a homeland for the Jewish people alongside the arab population...but of course the Arabs caused the trouble again and forced Breat Britian to abandon its adminisrtaion of the area....then the UN in 1947 decided it was best to split the region in 2...hence the creation of Israel.

Like everyone else here said - are you trolling??Europe's guilt at WW2 played a large part in the creation of Israel. The British washed their hands of the whole thing. and the UN was too weak to do anything but ratify its creation.

Did you know that Jewish people started to 'plant' themselves in the area in the early 20th century? They made sure to buy up the best, most fertile land for themselves. How nice.

Clytus wrote: »

The Jewish people have claims over the Holy Lands dating back nearly 3000 years....so I really dont think the argument of "I was here first" on the Arabs part serves any purpose.

FFS. 3 of the biggest religions in the world have a 'claim' on the holy land. Jews, Muslims and Christians. Why should just one religion get it? Are you basing the '3000 years' on the Old Testament? You're joking right? Do you also believe in Noah's ark, the tower of Babel and little fairies at the bottom of your garden? Do you believe everything you read? Religion = world's oldest (yawn) pretext for land grap/domination/power. Another example is the crusades of the middle ages - for religion? No! for land! - and very strategic land at that.

Clytus wrote: »

Israel never entered a war of expansion with its Arab neighbours...they fought for thier right to exist. The six day war was the third time the Arabs had fought the Israelis...and once again got thier asses kicked.

Again like someone else said - can we get off the rambo-style language? This is the Politics forum, not AH or BGRH.

Clytus wrote: »

Now it doesnt take a military genius to work out that to diminish a threat to your homeland and to your nations capital ( Jerusalem nearly fell during the Yom Kippur war) that to maintain a buffer zone between your own State and your enemies you be in your best interest. And thats what Israel did.

I say tomato, you say tomayto. You call it buffer zone. I call it a land grab. Strange that they couldn't create this 'buffer zone' in their own land had managed to do it in Palestinian land - in direct contravention of international law. It's like the British creating a buffer zone in NI using Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan and Louth.

Nota Bene: it isn't just Israel's capital - Jerusalem is also Palestine's capital.

Edit: what exactly would you want the Palestinians to do. Roll over and play dead? Where exactly should they go?

wes

Clytus wrote: »

Israel removed all its military forces from the Westbank and Gaza in 2005 to give the area autonomy]

Israel turned Gaza into a prison.

Then Israel started expanding it colonies in the West Bank, which are protected by the IDF. So there was no military withdrawal from the West Bank, the IDF were still there.

Oh btw, Israel has been engaged in an expansion conflict against Palestinians in the West Bank (they gave up doing so in Gaza, due to demographics of Palestinians). Israel colonies show that Israel is engaging in an expansionist conflict, to say otherwise is ignoring the existence of colonies which pretty clearly exist.

Clytus

Again, irrelevant. You made the point that certain territories were acquired by Israel following conflicts with neighbouring states - so what? Israel is currently occupying land outside the UN-recognised international boundary of the State of Israel

And as I said before that israel has the right to defend its people...and if a requirement of that is to hold lands aquired during a war then so be it
It was Israel that was attacked!!! She fought off the Arab coalition forces...so Israel had the right to hold lands taken!!!!! Its basic logic that to help ensure the states security (which is paramount to Israel) that a form of buffer zone be established.

Which is complete hypocrisy; "Make sure your elections are democratic, but make sure you vote for someone WE like!"

Hamas was on an INTERNATIONAL list of terrorist organisations just like Al Queda,Islamic Jihad,Farc,the IRA. How could any State deal on the International stage with a recognised terrorist organisation???

So, using your logic then, Hamas has the right to defend the Palestinian people with what ever means it deems effective?
Today 13:03

Of course they do...if they came under an unprovoked attack. I just dont get how people are missing the point of the current israeli actions....Israel has been under almost daily Qassam rocket attacks by Hamas militants for years...and the body responsible for maintaining law and order are doin nothing. Israel has the right/responsibility to defend its citizens from attack....and thats what its doing.

Something like 90% of the Israeli population are not religious

So what???....Israel today is a secular state...be you Christian,Jew or Muslim you can still enter Israel through international border crossings.

Again like someone else said - can we get off the rambo-style language? This is the Politics forum, not AH or BGRH

I used the Rambo language to make a point quickly,without having to go into the different theaters of conflict and thier final outcome....I apologise if Rambo upsets you.

wes

Clytus wrote: »

Following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire ,the British Palestine Mandate strived to create a homeland for the Jewish people alongside the arab population...but of course the Arabs caused the trouble again and forced Breat Britian to abandon its adminisrtaion of the area....then the UN in 1947 decided it was best to split the region in 2...hence the creation of Israel.

You conveniently forget the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians that took place.

I once again refer to Ilan Pappe's excellent book on the subject.

Clytus wrote: »

The Jewish people have claims over the Holy Lands dating back nearly 3000 years....so I really dont think the argument of "I was here first" on the Arabs part serves any purpose.

Complete rubbish. In 1948, the Palestinians had lived there for 100's of years. They were a clear majority as well. Then there is the fact, that that area of the world has had any number of different groups living there at any given time. There were people there before the Jewish people and plenty after. To call the land exclusively Jewish is ridiculous.

Clytus wrote: »

Israel never entered a war of expansion with its Arab neighbours...they fought for thier right to exist. The six day war was the third time the Arabs had fought the Israelis...and once again got thier asses kicked.

Now it doesnt take a military genius to work out that to diminish a threat to your homeland and to your nations capital ( Jerusalem nearly fell during the Yom Kippur war) that to maintain a buffer zone between your own State and your enemies you be in your best interest. And thats what Israel did.

No it hasn't. It has built colonies. Colonies that put its citizen in danger, among a hostile populace. It has stolen more and more Palestinians land since 1967. Israel continued conflict to steal more and more Palestinians land, that conflict is a expansionist war. To pretend that this isn't happening is ridiculous. Israel colonial war against the Palestinians has been going on since 1967 (merely a continuation of the 1948 conflict), it is by it very nature an expansionist war.