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33 Palestians/8 Israelis murdered and how the media reacts
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And as I said before that israel has the right to defend its people...and if a requirement of that is to hold lands aquired during a war then so be it
It was Israel that was attacked!!! She fought off the Arab coalition forces...so Israel had the right to hold lands taken!!!!! Its basic logic that to help ensure the states security (which is paramount to Israel) that a form of buffer zone be established.
Israel colonies puts there own citizen in danger among a hostile populace. It not for security reason, but to create the Zionist dream of a greater Israel. There colonies are not buffer zones, to say they are is ridiculous.
Also, Israel ethnically cleansed Palestinians and has herself engaged in wars of aggression against it neighbors. The 1956 war (a prime example) against Egypt alongside Britain and France, where Israel stole Egyptian land. You continually ignore the fact that Israel is war mongering state that main interest is more land. It cares nothing for security and wants land.Hamas was on an INTERNATIONAL list of terrorist organisations just like Al Queda,Islamic Jihad,Farc,the IRA. How could any State deal on the International stage with a recognised terrorist organisation???
Of course they do...if they came under an unprovoked attack. I just dont get how people are missing the point of the current israeli actions....Israel has been under almost daily Qassam rocket attacks by Hamas militants for years...and the body responsible for maintaining law and order are doin nothing. Israel has the right/responsibility to defend its citizens from attack....and thats what its doing.
Israel regularly engage in unprovoked violence and violates cease fire agreements.
Hamas makes the same claims Israel does about provocation. I buy neithers bull ****.So what???....Israel today is a secular state...be you Christian,Jew or Muslim you can still enter Israel through international border crossings.
Israel regularly discriminates against it Palestinians Christian and Muslim citizens of Israel. Israel is a state specifically for the Jewish people, they make this point very clear all the time. The Palestinians citizens there are merely tolerated.0 -
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Israel colonies puts there own citizen in danger among a hostile populace. It not for security reason, but to create the Zionist dream of a greater Israel. There colonies are not buffer zones, to say they are is ridiculous.
Also, Israel ethnically cleansed Palestinians and has herself engaged in wars of aggression against it neighbors. The 1956 war (a prime example) against Egypt alongside Britain and France, where Israel stole Egyptian land. You continually ignore the fact that Israel is war mongering state that main interest is more land. It cares nothing for security and wants land.
Israel regularly engage in unprovoked violence and violates cease fire agreements.
Hamas makes the same claims Israel does about provocation. I buy neithers bull ****.
Israel regularly discriminates against it Palestinians Christian and Muslim citizens of Israel. Israel is a state specifically for the Jewish people, they make this point very clear all the time. The Palestinians citizens there are merely tolerated.
As an Irishman married to an Israeli(daughter of a Dutch holocaust survivor) I find your last paragraph particularly insulting. There is a huge Palastinian Muslim population and a sizeable Christion minority living normally within the Israeli borders. I know I was a good Catholic Irish boy living there for a couple of years 1990-1992. I am back there twice yearly and you really need to educate yourself regarding the creation and the present day circumstances of Israel.0 -
Clytus :Hamas was on an INTERNATIONAL list of terrorist organisations just like Al Queda,Islamic Jihad,Farc,the IRA. How could any State deal on the International stage with a recognised terrorist organisation???
Is not sinn fein the political wing of the IRA whats the diff if Hamas want to move into the political side of things all the better would it sooth your sensibilities if they changed there name perhaps, but there terrorist you might say how can any self respecting government talk/negotiate with terrorists? ....... I again direct you up north where Sinnfein led by Gerry Adams and confessed former IRA member Martin McGuinness entered into the good friday agreement with both the Irish and british governments.
If the brits were to stick to this we dont deal with terrorist mantra it would be IRA bombs not suicide bombers the brits would be fearing right now.0 -
Is not sinn fein the political wing of the IRA whats the diff if Hamas want to move into the political side of things all the better would it sooth your sensibilities if they changed there name perhaps, but there terrorist you might say how can any self respecting government talk/negotiate with terrorists? ....... I again direct you up north where Sinnfein led by Gerry Adams and confessed former IRA member Martin McGuinness entered into the good friday agreement with both the Irish and british governments.
If the brits were to stick to this we dont deal with terrorist mantra it would be IRA bombs not suicide bombers the brits would be fearing right now.
Sadly no one trusts HAMAS and that includes the FATAH faction of the P.L.O.0 -
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As an Irishman married to an Israeli(daughter of a Dutch holocaust survivor) I find your last paragraph particularly insulting. There is a huge Palastinian Muslim population and a sizeable Christion minority living normally within the Israeli borders. I know I was a good Catholic Irish boy living there for a couple of years 1990-1992. I am back there twice yearly and you really need to educate yourself regarding the creation and the present day circumstances of Israel.
I won't dignify the pathetic personal attack, aimed at me with a response.
Israel is a Jewish state, not a state of its citizens like most Western states. This is not my definition, but Israels own.
About my last paragraph, well here is an example of what I am talking about:
Israel drops Arab killings case
Bedouin feel the squeeze as Israel resettles the Negev desert
Amazing how people ignore Israels treatment of its Palestinians citizens as 2nd class citizens, but not surprising at all. In fact one could find such a thing insulting.
Then there is the treatment of Palestinians in occupied Palestine, why can't they can't Palestinians use certain roads in the West Bank? Why do they need to get planning permission from Israel? Why can colonists build whatever they damn well please? Why does Israel put it own citizens in danger, isn't the common claim by Israel is that they crave security, such an odd thing for people who want security to do.
The fact that Palestinians booted out of there own country, can not return due to them being Palestinian. Whereas someone who is Jewish can return after a 1000 years, but a Palestinian can't after 60.
All the apologist nonsense in the world is hardly going to change the reality of what the state of Israel is and its actions.0 -
I won't dignify the pathetic personal attack, aimed at me with a response.
Israel is a Jewish state, not a state of its citizens like most Western states. This is not my definition, but Israels own.
About my last paragraph, well here is an example of what I am talking about:
Israel drops Arab killings case
Bedouin feel the squeeze as Israel resettles the Negev desert
Amazing how people ignore Israels treatment of its Palestinians citizens as 2nd class citizens, but not surprising at all. In fact one could find such a thing insulting.
Then there is the treatment of Palestinians in occupied Palestine, why can't they can't Palestinians use certain roads in the West Bank? Why do they need to get planning permission from Israel? Why can colonists build whatever they damn well please? Why does Israel put it own citizens in danger, isn't the common claim by Israel is that they crave security, such an odd thing for people who want security to do.
The fact that Palestinians booted out of there own country, can not return due to them being Palestinian. Whereas someone who is Jewish can return after a 1000 years, but a Palestinian can't after 60.
All the apologist nonsense in the world is hardly going to change the reality of what the state of Israel is and its actions.
Don't dignify them. Its still directed at you.0 -
David Ben Gurion the first President of Israel asked and pleaded with the Palastinian populous to stay and make a nation.
They were ordered out by the Syrian, Jordanian and Egyptian governments. Three countries who today want nothing to do with the palastinian people.
Two of these countries Egypt and Jordan have made peace with Israel.0 -
David Ben Gurion the first President of Israel asked and pleaded with the Palastinian populous to stay and make a nation.
They were ordered out by the Syrian, Jordanian and Egyptian governments. Three countries who today want nothing to do with the palastinian people.
Two of these countries Egypt and Jordan have made peace with Israel.
Typical Zionist apologist nonsense, here are quotes from Ben-Gurion:David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff.
From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978:
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.""We must expel Arabs and take their places."
—David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985."Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
—David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99."Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."
—David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
You can find more quotes here:
http://www.peoplejudgebush.org/Accountability/ZionistQuotes.shtml0 -
I won't dignify the pathetic personal attack, aimed at me with a response.
Israel is a Jewish state, not a state of its citizens like most Western states. This is not my definition, but Israels own.
About my last paragraph, well here is an example of what I am talking about:
Israel drops Arab killings case
Bedouin feel the squeeze as Israel resettles the Negev desert
Amazing how people ignore Israels treatment of its Palestinians citizens as 2nd class citizens, but not surprising at all. In fact one could find such a thing insulting.
Then there is the treatment of Palestinians in occupied Palestine, why can't they can't Palestinians use certain roads in the West Bank? Why do they need to get planning permission from Israel? Why can colonists build whatever they damn well please? Why does Israel put it own citizens in danger, isn't the common claim by Israel is that they crave security, such an odd thing for people who want security to do.
The fact that Palestinians booted out of there own country, can not return due to them being Palestinian. Whereas someone who is Jewish can return after a 1000 years, but a Palestinian can't after 60.
All the apologist nonsense in the world is hardly going to change the reality of what the state of Israel is and its actions.
By the way it was not a personal attack it was a response to a percieved insult on Israeli people.0 -
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Don't dignify them. Its still directed at you.
Well you reply here is a bit odd then. Anyway fair enough then, its wasn't a personal attack.
I didn't insult the Israeli people. I was pointing out the reprehensible actions of there government.
I am sure the average Israeli is as nice as anyone anywhere. However, the government of Israel (and any nation) is fair game for criticism.0 -
Why do you insist on making this personal? Is it that you can't refute what I am saying?
I can refute it quite easily I'VE LIVED THERE. My best friend in Israel is Arab. I don't agree with a lot of Israeli foreign policy or there policies towards Palastinians. I have 4 daughters and would hate them to have had to do their military service(My wife had to do it and believe me not pleasant).
If you have a quick look at an earlier thread Somebody was wondering why no one will talk to HAMAS. I replied not even FATAH will and, they are the armed force of the P.L.O. I agree with you 100% that the West bank and Gaza are open prisons but Jordan and Egypt have closed their borders as well.
Jewish and Druze people must do military service in Israel. for the Christian and Muslim communities this is voluntary. Trust me you would be surprised at how many people from these communities do.
It just seems that everyone bashes violent actions from the Nation state. Sometimes people need to recognise that these actions are a reaction to other violent reactions.0 -
I MO Israel today should be treated the same was as South Africa was treated until they were forced to get rid of their odious apartheid regime. And that is exactly what Israel has in place today, except they are murdering children as well. Not even the South Africans resorted to that. (Yes I am aware of Sharpsville where 60 innocent Africans were killed.) A drop in the bucket compared with the wholesale slaughter Israel is guilty of. Economic sanctions against Israel will not work. (The USA will just bail them out, they are subsidising them as it is) What should happen is a complete boycott of Israeli goods by the European Union. Don’t buy anything from them and don’t sell them anything. No travel to Israel and do not let them enter their football teams into European competitions (where they should not be in the first place). It won’t happen of course, but it should.0
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I can refute it quite easily I'VE LIVED THERE. My best friend in Israel is Arab. I don't agree with a lot of Israeli foreign policy or there policies towards Palastinians. I have 4 daughters and would hate them to have had to do their military service(My wife had to do it and believe me not pleasant).
I gave examples of the discrimination. The 2nd link about the Bedouin is especially pertinent. Care to refute what the Guardian says there?
Its great that you have Israeli Palestinian friend. That however doesn't prove anything at all.
Also, being there doesn't refute the examples I posted. Both which are clear example of discrimination against Palestinians in IsraelIf you have a quick look at an earlier thread Somebody was wondering why no one will talk to HAMAS. I replied not even FATAH will and, they are the armed force of the P.L.O. I agree with you 100% that the West bank and Gaza are open prisons but Jordan and Egypt have closed their borders as well.
I was under the impression that the border with Jordan was controlled by Israel.
Egypt have done so as part of peace agreements, if I remember correctly. Also, when Gaza's Palestinians broke out, Egypt was under pressure from Israel and the US to close it.Jewish and Druze people must do military service in Israel. for the Christian and Muslim communities this is voluntary. Trust me you would be surprised at how many people from these communities do.
I am aware of this. Doesn't change the 2 articles I posted earlier.
Here is another example of discrimination:
From zmag.org:Under the new law, rushed through yesterday, Palestinians alone will be excluded from obtaining citizenship or residency. Anyone else who marries an Israeli will be entitled to Israeli citizenship. Now Israeli Arabs who marry Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza Strip will either have to move to the occupied territories, or live apart from their husband or wife. Their children will be affected too: from the age of 12 they will be denied citizenship or residency and forced to move out of Israel.
Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch sent a joint letter to the Knesset, Israel's parliament, urging members to reject the bill. "The draft law barring family reunification for Palestinian spouses of Israeli citizens is profoundly discriminatory," Amnesty said in a statement. "A law permitting such blatant racial discrimination, on grounds of ethnicity or nationality, would clearly violate international human rights law and treaties which Israel has ratified and pledged to uphold." B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights organisation, joined in the criticism of the law. Yael Stein, a spokesman, said: "This is a racist law that decides who can live here according to racist criteria."
Click here for full articleIt just seems that everyone bashes violent actions from the Nation state. Sometimes people need to recognise that these actions are a reaction to other violent reactions.
No disagreement there, but it works the other way too.0 -
I gave examples of the discrimination. The 2nd link about the Bedouin is especially pertinent. Care to refute what the Guardian says there?
Its great that you have Israeli Palestinian friend. That however doesn't prove anything at all.
Also, being there doesn't refute the examples I posted. Both which are clear example of discrimination against Palestinians in Israel
I was under the impression that the border with Jordan was controlled by Israel.
Egypt have done so as part of peace agreements, if I remember correctly. Also, when Gaza's Palestinians broke out, Egypt was under pressure from Israel and the US to close it.
I am aware of this. Doesn't change the 2 articles I posted earlier.
Here is another example of discrimination:
From zmag.org:
No disagreement there, but it works the other way too.
Yup I agree totally it is a foul law and considering the amount of Israeli people who were previously affected by such laws in Europe there can be no defence.
I never said the Israeli state was perfect!!!
The Israeli/Jordanian border is under joint control and by law Palastinian people can leave.
Trust me Egypt were quite happy to close Gaza up again.
As regards the condemnation of violence, I would condemn it all but its hard to find people who condemn out of hand the violence of both sides.0 -
Yup I agree totally it is a foul law and considering the amount of Israeli people who were previously affected by such laws in Europe there can be no defence.
I never said the Israeli state was perfect!!!
In my mind this law is clear example of Palestinians being 2nd class citizens and hence not full citizens of Israel. Then there are the other examples, I posted.
I base my opinion on Israel on its own actions and laws.The Israeli/Jordanian border is under joint control and by law Palastinian people can leave.
Trust me Egypt were quite happy to close Gaza up again.
I don't doubt it. Treatment of Palestinians by everyone in the region is reprehensible.As regards the condemnation of violence, I would condemn it all but its hard to find people who condemn out of hand the violence of both sides.
Both sides violence is repugnant. I have personally stated I am no fan of Hamas or its actions. However, Israel is very often given a free hand to do as it likes by the US and EU and face at best mild condemnation from the EU, while enjoying favorable trade terms.0 -
I would say and this is a personal opinion but, HAMAS are perceived as Muslim extremist and not just a liberation organisation. The U.S. are rightly or wrongly paranoid about such organisations. Recently Europe has been getting its share of terrorism and on that basis HAMAS will never have friends in the west. FATAH despise them and they will never cooperate.
I would say that Israel needs a Labour government and the Palastinian need to ditch HAMAS. The problem for Israel will always be the religious right. They can be a law unto themselves and every government needs them. Don't be mistaken about Israeli people. The vast majority want peace. The people you see on the news from the settlements are mainly Hasidic and extreme. A lot of these people's forefathers would have arrived soon after the start of the 20th century and despite everything have no real feeling towards Europeans that arrived after 1945. The same can be said of the Jewish community that arrived From Brooklyn and Queens. They have been in America since the late 1800's and want their homeland.
For the Palastinian people they are split. 60% would be with HAMAS and 40% with FATAH. its not a split that can be easily reconciled. It would be like Unionist Belfast despising Unionist Derry. Internal conflicts like this can be the hardest to resolve.
I have no doubt that in the fullness of time there will be peace. They have been close before and sooner or later the world will tire of it.
A change of U.S. administration and keeping Iran out of it will help. Sadly there will be a lot more deaths before this ends.
Before I end I must say this, my wife would be liberal almost left of centre but, I know if Israel came under direct military threat I would have no chance of keeping her in this country.
That I'm afraid is the mindset of the avarage Israeli. I suspect the avarage Palastinian would be the same.0 -
I would say and this is a personal opinion but, HAMAS are perceived as Muslim extremist and not just a liberation organisation. The U.S. are rightly or wrongly paranoid about such organisations. Recently Europe has been getting its share of terrorism and on that basis HAMAS will never have friends in the west. FATAH despise them and they will never cooperate.
The US and EU have had a double standard favoring Israel, long before Hamas came to power. The double standard in my opinion has a lot more to do with keeping a police man in the region, with the Shah gone, the US needs Israel more now than ever as a way to keep its Arab "allies" on its toes. Basically its about controlling the oil resources, which is what the US has always cared about.I would say that Israel needs a Labour government and the Palastinian need to ditch HAMAS. The problem for Israel will always be the religious right. They can be a law unto themselves and every government needs them. Don't be mistaken about Israeli people. The vast majority want peace. The people you see on the news from the settlements are mainly Hasidic and extreme. A lot of these people's forefathers would have arrived soon after the start of the 20th century and despite everything have no real feeling towards Europeans that arrived after 1945. The same can be said of the Jewish community that arrived From Brooklyn and Queens. They have been in America since the late 1800's and want their homeland.
I have no doubt that the majority of Israel (and Palestine) wants peace. Everything I have read suggest as much.
However, the Israeli government seem to have very different opinion on this.For the Palastinian people they are split. 60% would be with HAMAS and 40% with FATAH. its not a split that can be easily reconciled. It would be like Unionist Belfast despising Unionist Derry. Internal conflicts like this can be the hardest to resolve.
I don't think Palestinian split is as extreme as the example given. I think for better or worse, everyone will have to talk to Hamas sooner or later.
As for Hamas, I think the violent repression of there own people, will cause there support to take a major dip. The promised a lot (like all Islamists) and failed miserably. Having said that Fatah are pretty useless shower of idiots, who have made a huge mess of things.I have no doubt that in the fullness of time there will be peace. They have been close before and sooner or later the world will tire of it.
A change of U.S. administration and keeping Iran out of it will help. Sadly there will be a lot more deaths before this ends.
Sadly I don't think we will see peace anytime soon. Farther down the line they may achieve peace.
I don't think a change in the US government will make much of a difference. Unquestioning support for Israel is supported by both parties in the US.
As for Iran, the way Adminjaed is running the country into the ground, I doubt the Iranian people will put up the dangerous stupidity of Adminjaed for every long. Hopefully the reformers will come back into power.
Even if they don't Adminjaed will probably cause to much damage to Iran for them to cause any trouble.Before I end I must say this, my wife would be liberal almost left of centre but, I know if Israel came under direct military threat I would have no chance of keeping her in this country.
That I'm afraid is the mindset of the avarage Israeli. I suspect the avarage Palastinian would be the same.
Hopefully a full scale conflict between the 2 side can be avoided. Too many have died already.0 -
Up until about ten posts ago, this thread was going to get locked. It may have just rescued itself for a while longer.
Any more accusations of trolling or personal attacks will earn the poster a two week ban from the forum and the thread may well be locked.
Let's all keep a sane head on us please.0 -
Get off your high horse and stop being a blinkered fool. There's far worse out there. What's your views on Sudan? Zimbabwe? If you want facism there's better examples out there. Seriously.
the next person to murder someone in this country should really use a similar defense. look, your honour i'm really not that bad, there are loads of people out there commiting more murders than me.0 -
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And as I said before that israel has the right to defend its people...and if a requirement of that is to hold lands aquired during a war then so be it
It was Israel that was attacked!!! She fought off the Arab coalition forces...so Israel had the right to hold lands taken!!!!! Its basic logic that to help ensure the states security (which is paramount to Israel) that a form of buffer zone be established.
Hamas was on an INTERNATIONAL list of terrorist organisations just like Al Queda,Islamic Jihad,Farc,the IRA. How could any State deal on the International stage with a recognised terrorist organisation???
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I ask myself that question many times about America.0 -
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Israel is an apartheid state that uses murder and torture routinely against Palestinian civilians. http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0123.htm
The state of Israel should be treated like the pariah that it is and shunned by the international community.0 -
The majority of American Jews do not support Israel.
Morally financially or militarily ?
I think You'll find you are wrong on all 3 counts.
On the subject of Hamas, you have to examine the situation that they originated from, Israel turned the screw in the Oslo agreements, destroying the support network of Arafat. From then, it has been a cycle of Murder, poverty and lies to get to where we are today.
Anyone see Paxman interview the Israeli Amabassador to the UK on tv tonight ?? duck dodge dip dive and dodge. Its inhumane what they are doing to the Palestinians, and to turn around and try and justify it on International tv is an absolute disgrace.:mad:0 -
Posted by Clytus:
The Jewish people have claims over the Holy Lands dating back nearly 3000 years....so I really dont think the argument of "I was here first" on the Arabs part serves any purpose.
What an odd thing to say. Ireland used to be occupied by 'pagans'. So shall we bring all the 'pagans' back and kick all the Irish Catholics out going by your definition that the argument of "I was here first" doesn't serve any purpose on the Irish peoples part?
Perhaps the Palestinians see a Hamas government as a path to freedom and an end to Israeli suppression. They probably aren't aware that they are an internationally recognised terrorist group. Considering America's support for Isreal and their ignorance of Palestine, what's the betting that many Palestinians can't afford the luxury of a TV or access to the internet, those things we take for granted as a way of hearing about these atrocities.
I'm certainly not condoning violence, I hate it in any shape or form, but I when I see individual Palestinians with homemade bombs strapped to their chest and groups of Israelis in armoured tanks carrying shiny, USA issued guns, it's hard not to sympathise with one side over the other.0 -
Chunky Monkey wrote: »I'm certainly not condoning violence, I hate it in any shape or form, but I when I see individual Palestinians with "homemade bombs strapped to their chest" and groups of Israelis in armoured tanks carrying shiny, USA issued guns, it's hard not to sympathise with one side over the other.
And I for one would certainly sympathise with the Israeli's in their shiny armoured tanks over the totally indiscriminate Palistinian extremists with their "homemade bombs strapped to their chests" sitting on a bus in 'down town Haifa' & waiting for the Bang ....................0 -
The thing is that the Palestinians have a cause and are hard done by, to put it mildly, but in reality what can they achieve with terror attacks, shootings and suicide bombers? Its not as if the Israelis are going to give in. Its just not going to happen as the Israelis have a fierce determination to survive. Such actions by the Palestinians only serves to worsen their position and drives them further into poverty and isolation, possibly to extinction as their state becomes more impoverished.0
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There is no right in this conflict- they are both wrong. Israel however is the obvious bully.0
This discussion has been closed.
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