Call yourselves Car Enthusiasts

WHITE_P

Really some poeple here should think long and hard about what they are saying.

If your not slagging off 4x4's, its Diesel engines. Cop on. In terms of real world driving, most modern diesels are as good if not better than their petrol equivalents.

The real issues here should be how to improve the many motoring problems that exist on our roads these day's.

Having driven both petrol and diesel powered vehicles over the years, the arguements for and against are fairly ridiculous either way.

The way a car drives is more important than what fuel it uses.

astraboy

Just reading an article in EVO mag about the diesel R8. Possible fuel of the future. I would never slag off any type of car if it has notable positive traits. I reckon some people come on here just looking for an argument and have no interest in cars.

fletch

mike65

Who slags diesels? The Skoda Octavia Estate 1.9 TDi is The best car in the world Official!

WHITE_P

fletch wrote: »

Ooh Yeah, but it should be fun to see the replies !!!

Sabre Man

Just because you're a car enthusiast doesn't mean you can't slag

As for diesels, have you ever been for a walk and gotten a lungful of diesel exhaust, exhaling the horrible fumes for a good while afterwards? I'm not saying petrol cars smell like roses, but they don't spread those nasty little diesel particles.

There's an awful lot of smelly, noisy diesels out there :mad:

Anan1

WHITE_P wrote: »

The way a car drives is more important than what fuel it uses.

Eh, the way a car drives is often a function of what fuel it uses.

Steve

astraboy wrote: »

Just reading an article in EVO mag about the diesel R8. Possible fuel of the future. I would never slag off any type of car if it has notable positive traits. I reckon some people come on here just looking for an argument and have no interest in cars.

I disagree with whatever you just said;)

Melion

mike65 wrote: »

Who slags diesels? The Skoda Octavia Estate 1.9 TDi is The best car in the world Official!

And what a huge boot!!!!!!

coolbeans

astraboy wrote: »

Just reading an article in EVO mag about the diesel R8. Possible fuel of the future. I would never slag off any type of car if it has notable positive traits. I reckon some people come on here just looking for an argument and have no interest in cars.

I've over a thousand car magazines in my attic. I love cars. What I particularly like is aside from power, looks, and pure fun, is the continuing evolution of the car. So please don't inherently think that all who have problems with the widespread use of 4x4s are not car enthusiasts. I am one.
However while 4x4s i.e. XC90s, Land Cruisers etc are nice motors, don't get me wrong, they don't represent the technological pinnacle of motoring. Why? Because they are unnecessarily inefficient in an era of rising oil prices and real concerns over global warming.
The best cars for me are fast when necessary :cool:, stylish, technologically advanced, reliable and innovative when it comes to fuel efficiency and the likes.
The widespread use of 4x4s, mostly unnecessary I think most agree, flys in the face of where we need to be going with the car.

E92

Diesel will never be the fuel of the future. It's a stop gap measure. Petrol engines will be around for much longer, because they can run on Bio Ethanol, which cuts emissions by up to 80%(the best diesels are about 15% less polluting of CO2 than petrol, not a lot of a reduction really), but far more importantly they can be gotten to run on hydrogen, which most definately IS the fuel of the future, though not for another 20 years.

Hydrogen fuel = no pollution whatsoever.

Diesels are just a fad really, the diesel engine has no potential once petrol engines can run on hydrogen(BMW and Mazda already have cars that can do this, though not for general sale) at an affordable price and hydrogen is freely available there will be no need for diesel at all. It's only a stop gap measure to allow the car manufacturers be seen to be cleaning up their act.

At the end of the day, it comes down to cost, in Europe it's so much cheaper to run a diesel car, which is the real reason why our Continental cousins buy diesels in the numbers they do. And when we change our VRT system in July, we'll all be driving diesels too, because it will be much cheaper to do so, and unless you are completely diesel phobic then there is no real reason not to buy a diesel.

Audi got all the Le Mans rules changed so that they would be biased towards diesels, we wouldn't want a level playing pitch now or anything like, petrol might have actually won then you know and we couldn't have such an "evil" fuel like petrol winning or anything like that:rolleyes:.

coolbeans

E92 wrote: »

Diesel will never be the fuel of the future. It's a stop gap measure. Petrol engines will be around for much longer, because they can run on Bio Ethanol, which cuts emissions by up to 80%(the best diesels are about 15% less polluting of CO2 than petrol, not a lot of a reduction really), but far more importantly they can be gotten to run on hydrogen, which most definately IS the fuel of the future, though not for another 20 years.

Hydrogen fuel = no pollution whatsoever.

Diesels are just a fad really, the diesel engine has no potential once petrol engines can run on hydrogen(BMW and Mazda already have cars that can do this, though not for general sale) at an affordable price and hydrogen is freely available there will be no need for diesel at all. It's only a stop gap measure to allow the car manufacturers be seen to be cleaning up their act.

At the end of the day, it comes down to cost, in Europe it's so much cheaper to run a diesel car, which is the real reason why our Continental cousins buy diesels in the numbers they do. And when we change our VRT system in July, we'll all be driving diesels too, because it will be much cheaper to do so, and unless you are completely diesel phobic then there is no real reason not to buy a diesel.

for "particulate zapper technology" look into Mercedes Bluetec, or something, technology.
Audi got all the Le Mans rules changed so that they would be biased towards diesels, we wouldn't want a level playing pitch now or anything like, petrol might have actually won then you know and we couldn't have such an "evil" fuel like petrol winning or anything like that:rolleyes:.

Diesels are not a fad. From an engineering and even environmental perspective they make sense at the moment but we can only move forward so fast. Hyprids paired with diesel engines and also fitted with particulate "zapper" technologies are the next step. Hydrogen will have a growing role to play but that remains to be seen.
As for bio-ethanol have you thought what would happen if enough were produced to meet equivalent demand for oil? Food prices would go throught the roof, if we could grow enough food at all.

Biro

I think we should split the Motors forum into an Enthusiasts forum for good solid (and heated) debates about car stuff, and general Motoring queries for the kind of people who just want to know things like which is bigger, a Mondeo or Fiesta?

pburns

coolbeans wrote: »

I've over a thousand car magazines in my attic. I love cars. What I particularly like is aside from power, looks, and pure fun, is the continuing evolution of the car. So please don't inherently think that all who have problems with the widespread use of 4x4s are not car enthusiasts. I am one.
However while 4x4s i.e. XC90s, Land Cruisers etc are nice motors, don't get me wrong, they don't represent the technological pinnacle of motoring. Why? Because they are unnecessarily inefficient in an era of rising oil prices and real concerns over global warming.
The best cars for me are fast when necessary :cool:, stylish, technologically advanced, reliable and innovative when it comes to fuel efficiency and the likes.
The widespread use of 4x4s, mostly unnecessary I think most agree, flys in the face of where we need to be going with the car.

Thumbs up!
That's as close to my standpoint as I've ever seen on these boards. You seem to be advocating some of the arguments put forward by CAR's Gavin Green.

I'm excited by the fact that manufacturers are coming up with innovative ways to deal with the changes that are coming down the line. I too have thousands of car mags - some dating back before I was born. However many regulars here (not all) seem to have absorbed the sum total of their car knowledge off Top Gear or have uncritically consumed the piffle written by juvenile, gung-ho British motoring journos. They're more interested in posting piccy-wiccies of their monsterous new RS-M35-GTR-mi-bob or salivating over some tarty old Lambo.

As for the diesel debate?
Yeah, it's a stop gap...not better or worse than petrol really - just different.

4x4s are great. Have one meself. But it has windy-up windows, a flat-bed and I occassionally use it OFF-ROAD...

chris85

OP, this is a forum for the discussion of all things motoring. You have your opinion and thats fine but so does everyone else.

Diesel Vs Petrol, they are very different, pros and cons for both. Most people would agree the new Diesels are very good, the Audi R8 TDi, the Passat TDi (i like it a lot), the Skoda Octavia diesel. All great cars.

And as for 4x4's, all thats been said is that some people just dont need to be driving them. The safety of the 4x4 can be matched in other car classes, their economy is not good. Of course some people need them. (not starting a debate on this)

OP, just dont mention foglights

E92

coolbeans wrote: »

Diesels are not a fad. From an engineering and even environmental perspective they make sense at the moment but we can only move forward so fast. Hyprids paired with diesel engines and also fitted with particulate "zapper" technologies are the next step. Hydrogen will have a growing role to play but that remains to be seen.
As for bio-ethanol have you thought what would happen if enough were produced to meet equivalent demand for oil? Food prices would go throught the roof, if we could grow enough food at all.

Thanks for quoting me accurately re "for "particulate zapper technology" look into Mercedes Bluetec, or something, technology." which I never said:(:rolleyes:.

Diesel most definately IS a fad. Look at the CO2 emissions of diesels. An Audi A4 1.8 does 169 g/km, a 2.0 TDI does 144 g/km. A diesel pollutes 85% as much of the CO2 a petrol does. Or to put it another way, it offers a 17% reduction in CO2. Yet it is supposedly a wonder fuel that will solve all our environmental problems:rolleyes:. A petrol doing 50 mpg is just as bad for the planet as a diesel doing 56.5 mpg. A diesel doing 50 mpg pollutes as much CO2 into the atmosphere as a petrol that does 44.3 mpg. Again, not very good. The environmental impact is not that much really, because the burning of diesel produces 13% more CO2 per litre burned than the burning of every litre of petrol.

Diesel engines can't be adapted into running on anything else bar biodiesel, which results in your car smelling like a chip shop. Petrol engines can be adapted to run on bio ethanol, CNC, LPG, and of course the holy grail in automotive engineering, hydrogen. Petrol engines always have and always will continue to be able to extract a far higher power per litre ratio than diesels can ever dream of. The fact that most petrols still are able to have as much power as twin turbo never mind single turbo diesels and yet still for the most part have no form of forced induction proves this. It goes without saying that they can be tuned up to offer far more power than any diesel for any given displacement.

Diesel is dearer to buy, and with the new Euro 5 emissions regs, we will soon have to buy diesels that run on AdBlue(Honda have a completely different system with none of this complication though), which needs natural gas and in turn makes diesels even more expensive to buy than they already are. Someone will have to pay for the cost of topping up the AdBlue every time you get the car serviced(so far AdBlue tanks won't be accessible the way a standard diesel tank is readily accessible every time you want to fill up), and because you have to go to the main dealer to get this done it means if you don't want a main dealer to service your car, you now have a car that is a much bigger public health risk(AdBlue gets rid of most of the Nitrous Oxides and Particulates).

The Euro 6 standards for emissions for diesels are exactly the same as those standards for petrols for Euro 4. So diesels in 2014 will be as clean as petrols were required to be in 2005. So in 2014 diesels will be as clean as petrols have been since 2005. The European standards for 2014 diesels are actually easierthan the Tier 2 Bin 5 standards for all fuels in the US(unlike Europe, the US sees sense and makes emissions standards fuel neutral). So much for diesel being green then. In fairness the Carbon Monoxide for diesels is only half that for petrols, but that's the only area that petrols have it easier.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter which manufacturer you listen too, they're all saying the same thing at the end of the day: hydrogen, be it in a fuel cell as favoured by most manufacturers, or in an internal combustion engine, as preferred by BMW and Mazda, is most definately the fuel of the future.

As for biofuels, I realise that biofuels have huge question marks over them, the most important of which is how it will affect developing countries, and more importantly, some of the methods as to how the ethanol is generated are controversial to say the least, because depending on how you do it, it can be very environmentally unfriendly to the point you're better off using crude oil. But I have every confidence that manufacturers can solve the problem, because as I say, it has the potential to reduce emissions by 80% overnight. Now that is far more impressive than anything diesel, hybrid or anything else short of hydrogen can do:D.

By the way, I've no problems with diesels performance(I know they can give plenty of petrols more than a run for their money),and to be fair, modern diesels are vastly improved compared to even 10 years ago, much quieter, more power, even better fuel consumption etc.

I'm just merely arguing the case for why we still need petrols and why there is still plenty of good in petrol left;).

return guide

E92 wrote: »

Diesel will never be the fuel of the future. It's a stop gap measure. Petrol engines will be around for much longer, because they can run on Bio Ethanol, which cuts emissions by up to 80%(the best diesels are about 15% less polluting of CO2 than petrol, not a lot of a reduction really), but far more importantly they can be gotten to run on hydrogen, which most definately IS the fuel of the future, though not for another 20 years.

Hydrogen fuel = no pollution whatsoever.

Diesels are just a fad really, the diesel engine has no potential once petrol engines can run on hydrogen(BMW and Mazda already have cars that can do this, though not for general sale) at an affordable price and hydrogen is freely available there will be no need for diesel at all. It's only a stop gap measure to allow the car manufacturers be seen to be cleaning up their act.

At the end of the day, it comes down to cost, in Europe it's so much cheaper to run a diesel car, which is the real reason why our Continental cousins buy diesels in the numbers they do. And when we change our VRT system in July, we'll all be driving diesels too, because it will be much cheaper to do so, and unless you are completely diesel phobic then there is no real reason not to buy a diesel.

Audi got all the Le Mans rules changed so that they would be biased towards diesels, we wouldn't want a level playing pitch now or anything like, petrol might have actually won then you know and we couldn't have such an "evil" fuel like petrol winning or anything like that:rolleyes:.

Well done mystic meg, can you tell us tomorrows lotto numbers as well?

(Runs to get fire extinguisher)

shanel23

E92 wrote: »

Thanks for quoting me accurately re "for "particulate zapper technology" look into Mercedes Bluetec, or something, technology." which I never said:(:rolleyes:.

Diesel most definately IS a fad. Look at the CO2 emissions of diesels. An Audi A4 1.8 does 169 g/km, a 2.0 TDI does 144 g/km. A diesel pollutes 85% as much of the CO2 a petrol does. Or to put it another way, it offers a 17% reduction in CO2. Yet it is supposedly a wonder fuel that will solve all our environmental problems:rolleyes:. A petrol doing 50 mpg is just as bad for the planet as a diesel doing 56.5 mpg. A diesel doing 50 mpg pollutes as much CO2 into the atmosphere as a petrol that does 44.3 mpg. Again, not very good. The environmental impact is not that much really, because the burning of diesel produces 13% more CO2 per litre burned than the burning of every litre of petrol.

Diesel engines can't be adapted into running on anything else bar biodiesel, which results in your car smelling like a chip shop. Petrol engines can be adapted to run on bio ethanol, CNC, LPG, and of course the holy grail in automotive engineering, hydrogen. Petrol engines always have and always will continue to be able to extract a far higher power per litre ratio than diesels can ever dream of. The fact that most petrols still are able to have as much power as twin turbo never mind single turbo diesels and yet still for the most part have no form of forced induction proves this. It goes without saying that they can be tuned up to offer far more power than any diesel for any given displacement.

Diesel is dearer to buy, and with the new Euro 5 emissions regs, we will soon have to buy diesels that run on AdBlue(Honda have a completely different system with none of this complication though), which needs natural gas and in turn makes diesels even more expensive to buy than they already are. Someone will have to pay for the cost of topping up the AdBlue every time you get the car serviced(so far AdBlue tanks won't be accessible the way a standard diesel tank is readily accessible every time you want to fill up), and because you have to go to the main dealer to get this done it means if you don't want a main dealer to service your car, you now have a car that is a much bigger public health risk(AdBlue gets rid of most of the Nitrous Oxides and Particulates).

The Euro 6 standards for emissions for diesels are exactly the same as those standards for petrols for Euro 4. So diesels in 2014 will be as clean as petrols were required to be in 2005. So in 2014 diesels will be as clean as petrols have been since 2005. The European standards for 2014 diesels are actually easierthan the Tier 2 Bin 5 standards for all fuels in the US(unlike Europe, the US sees sense and makes emissions standards fuel neutral). So much for diesel being green then. In fairness the Carbon Monoxide for diesels is only half that for petrols, but that's the only area that petrols have it easier.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter which manufacturer you listen too, they're all saying the same thing at the end of the day: hydrogen, be it in a fuel cell as favoured by most manufacturers, or in an internal combustion engine, as preferred by BMW and Mazda, is most definately the fuel of the future.

As for biofuels, I realise that biofuels have huge question marks over them, the most important of which is how it will affect developing countries, and more importantly, some of the methods as to how the ethanol is generated are controversial to say the least, because depending on how you do it, it can be very environmentally unfriendly to the point you're better off using crude oil. But I have every confidence that manufacturers can solve the problem, because as I say, it has the potential to reduce emissions by 80% overnight. Now that is far more impressive than anything diesel, hybrid or anything else short of hydrogen can do:D.

By the way, I've no problems with diesels performance(I know they can give plenty of petrols more than a run for their money),and to be fair, modern diesels are vastly improved compared to even 10 years ago, much quieter, more power, even better fuel consumption etc.

I'm just merely arguing the case for why we still need petrols and why there is still plenty of good in petrol left;).

Go man Go

coolbeans

E92 wrote: »

Thanks for quoting me accurately re "for "particulate zapper technology" look into Mercedes Bluetec, or something, technology." which I never said:(:rolleyes:.

Diesel most definately IS a fad. Look at the CO2 emissions of diesels. An Audi A4 1.8 does 169 g/km, a 2.0 TDI does 144 g/km. A diesel pollutes 85% as much of the CO2 a petrol does. Or to put it another way, it offers a 17% reduction in CO2. Yet it is supposedly a wonder fuel that will solve all our environmental problems:rolleyes:. A petrol doing 50 mpg is just as bad for the planet as a diesel doing 56.5 mpg. A diesel doing 50 mpg pollutes as much CO2 into the atmosphere as a petrol that does 44.3 mpg. Again, not very good. The environmental impact is not that much really, because the burning of diesel produces 13% more CO2 per litre burned than the burning of every litre of petrol.

Diesel engines can't be adapted into running on anything else bar biodiesel, which results in your car smelling like a chip shop. Petrol engines can be adapted to run on bio ethanol, CNC, LPG, and of course the holy grail in automotive engineering, hydrogen. Petrol engines always have and always will continue to be able to extract a far higher power per litre ratio than diesels can ever dream of. The fact that most petrols still are able to have as much power as twin turbo never mind single turbo diesels and yet still for the most part have no form of forced induction proves this. It goes without saying that they can be tuned up to offer far more power than any diesel for any given displacement.

Diesel is dearer to buy, and with the new Euro 5 emissions regs, we will soon have to buy diesels that run on AdBlue(Honda have a completely different system with none of this complication though), which needs natural gas and in turn makes diesels even more expensive to buy than they already are. Someone will have to pay for the cost of topping up the AdBlue every time you get the car serviced(so far AdBlue tanks won't be accessible the way a standard diesel tank is readily accessible every time you want to fill up), and because you have to go to the main dealer to get this done it means if you don't want a main dealer to service your car, you now have a car that is a much bigger public health risk(AdBlue gets rid of most of the Nitrous Oxides and Particulates).

The Euro 6 standards for emissions for diesels are exactly the same as those standards for petrols for Euro 4. So diesels in 2014 will be as clean as petrols were required to be in 2005. So in 2014 diesels will be as clean as petrols have been since 2005. The European standards for 2014 diesels are actually easierthan the Tier 2 Bin 5 standards for all fuels in the US(unlike Europe, the US sees sense and makes emissions standards fuel neutral). So much for diesel being green then. In fairness the Carbon Monoxide for diesels is only half that for petrols, but that's the only area that petrols have it easier.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter which manufacturer you listen too, they're all saying the same thing at the end of the day: hydrogen, be it in a fuel cell as favoured by most manufacturers, or in an internal combustion engine, as preferred by BMW and Mazda, is most definately the fuel of the future.

As for biofuels, I realise that biofuels have huge question marks over them, the most important of which is how it will affect developing countries, and more importantly, some of the methods as to how the ethanol is generated are controversial to say the least, because depending on how you do it, it can be very environmentally unfriendly to the point you're better off using crude oil. But I have every confidence that manufacturers can solve the problem, because as I say, it has the potential to reduce emissions by 80% overnight. Now that is far more impressive than anything diesel, hybrid or anything else short of hydrogen can do:D.

By the way, I've no problems with diesels performance(I know they can give plenty of petrols more than a run for their money),and to be fair, modern diesels are vastly improved compared to even 10 years ago, much quieter, more power, even better fuel consumption etc.

I'm just merely arguing the case for why we still need petrols and why there is still plenty of good in petrol left;).

Thanks for quoting me accurately re "for "particulate zapper technology" look into Mercedes Bluetec, or something, technology." which I never said.

I haven't a clue how that got into your post. i was trying to add it my own.

I think diesels have more potential than petrol for the foreseeable future. I know some don't agree but the fact remains you can go further on less fuel in a diesel. As economy improves for both petrol and diesel at the same rate then the diesel will always get you further.
I agree that hydrogen is promising though and I'm looking forward to Honda's FCX http://world.honda.com/FuelCell/

coolbeans

Remember too that diesels will get cleaner and cleaner. That combined with the fact that petrol emits, and always will emit, 15% more CO2 than diesel makes diesel 'definitely not a fad' in my book.

JHMEG

Should this thread really have been titled "diesel is a lot better that ye think it is"?

Spit62500

It depends what timescale you all have in mind here but I'm astonished that any informed enthusiast could see a long term future for the internal combustion engine with its inherent inefficiencies as a means of propulsion.

coolbeans

I do realise that diesel is far from the ideal fuel but what do you expect? Hydrogen to come in overnight. There are almost unfathomable infrastructural and supply problems to be overcome.

coolbeans

And don't forget that diesels can run on bio-fuels too. Oil seed rape can be quite easily converted. The father's John Deere 6910, 2001, is capable of running on it as are old mercs, pugs and the like. If you wanna talk biofuel we need to think biofuel powering diesels.

coolbeans

Spit62500 wrote: »

It depends what timescale you all have in mind here but I'm astonished that any informed enthusiast could see a long term future for the internal combustion engine with its inherent inefficiencies as a means of propulsion.

The fuel cell is interesting and are electric cars. Both have fundamental problems though, e.g. where are we gonna get the electricity for electric cars unless powered by advanced internal combustion engines?

Steve

coolbeans wrote: »

Remember too that diesels will get cleaner and cleaner. That combined with the fact that petrol emits, and always will emit, 15% more CO2 than diesel makes diesel 'definitely not a fad' in my book.

Less Co2 doesn't mean a fuel is cleaner. Its a political thing that I am yet to be convinced is true.
Say, for example, the politicians decided that because plants breathe in co2 and give out oxygen that higher co2 emmissions were better for the enviromment and therefore let's tax cars with low co2 emmissions - the same bunch of people who are in the 'green' party would now be calling for the abolition of priuses.
I guarantee that in 20 years time diesel will be regarded as we now see asbestos (which was a perfectly safe substance 20 years ago) and you'll have to call in a specialist in full respirator attire to dispose of a can that you find in the basement.

200 years ago everyone 'knew' the earth was flat and you could be hanged for thinking otherwise.

Today everyone 'knows' that co2 is causing global warming (choughbull****chough).

Today nobody 'knows' why the rest of the planets in our solar system are warming at the same rate as ours - maybe its because we're not paying enough VRT.

coolbeans

E92: Diesel engines can't be adapted into running on anything else bar biodiesel, which results in your car smelling like a chip shop. Petrol engines can be adapted to run on bio ethanol, CNC, LPG, and of course the holy grail in automotive engineering, hydrogen. Petrol engines always have and always will continue to be able to extract a far higher power per litre ratio than diesels can ever dream of. The fact that most petrols still are able to have as much power as twin turbo never mind single turbo diesels and yet still for the most part have no form of forced induction proves this. It goes without saying that they can be tuned up to offer far more power than any diesel for any given displacement.

Diesel is dearer to buy, and with the new Euro 5 emissions regs, we will soon have to buy diesels that run on AdBlue(Honda have a completely different system with none of this complication though), which needs natural gas and in turn makes diesels even more expensive to buy than they already are. Someone will have to pay for the cost of topping up the AdBlue every time you get the car serviced(so far AdBlue tanks won't be accessible the way a standard diesel tank is readily accessible every time you want to fill up), and because you have to go to the main dealer to get this done it means if you don't want a main dealer to service your car, you now have a car that is a much bigger public health risk(AdBlue gets rid of most of the Nitrous Oxides and Particulates).

The Euro 6 standards for emissions for diesels are exactly the same as those standards for petrols for Euro 4. So diesels in 2014 will be as clean as petrols were required to be in 2005. So in 2014 diesels will be as clean as petrols have been since 2005. The European standards for 2014 diesels are actually easierthan the Tier 2 Bin 5 standards for all fuels in the US(unlike Europe, the US sees sense and makes emissions standards fuel neutral). So much for diesel being green then. In fairness the Carbon Monoxide for diesels is only half that for petrols, but that's the only area that petrols have it easier.

Biodiesel chip shop argument doesn't stand up at all. I was driving a tractor to Wexford over the summer. Trailer filled with oil seed rape. Place processes the seed and extract diesel right there on a converted farm. Saw fellas drivin up to a pump in their landcrusiers or octavias, filling up and driving off. Chipshop? No.

As for the US standards on emissions Merc-B are bringing out blue-tec ultra low emission diesels in their E320 CDI. It will meet the notoriously stringent Calfornia emissions laws well into the future.

Slidey

I am a diesel fan and a merc truck mechanic. Adblue might have its pitfalls (put bluntly its urea aka p1ss) but it sure as hell beats egr. Ever try taking the ashes out of your fire and burnin them again? egr is basically that and gungs up inlet manifolds and the like. Then you also hve to have egr coolers etc..
As for the polution argument, you can smell diesel fumes all day long and not really feel sick (well i can anyway) but a petrol car ticking over will make my head spin. A suicidal person would die of boredom first if eh locked himself in a garage with a modern diesel engine and a garden hose in the window..

cock robin

There will be no shift towards carbon neutral propulsion systems for a considerable period. It aint got nothing to do with climate change or costs. There is still a considerable amount of profit to be made from petrol and diesel and only when consumers have a change of heart will any radical overhaul take place. The technology currently exists for vehicles of all descriptions to run on alternative fuels. Profit £$€ is the driving force behind all current makes and models. In the future transport may be seen not as a luxury but purely a means of moving people from place to place. We will of course be dead by then. But wether you drive a 4X4 or a Trabant is not the issue,we are all part of the problem. We could so easily use our collective purchasing power and force manufacturers to provide us with transport products which are both climate freindly and cost effective to produce and run. But guess what? We wont.

WHITE_P

stevec wrote: »

I disagree with whatever you just said;)

Jeeze stevec, your a bit hard on astraboy, is it a love hate thing or what ?

WHITE_P

All very well round replies, even if some are a bit long winded.

An interesting read for anyone who is actually worried about the whole environment issue is a book called The Hunt for Zero Point

Personally I think it is a load of old bull, nature being what it is, car's are not going to make much difference to what happens to our environment.

Global warming is natural occurence, that has been happening for thousands of years now.

So we should all just get on with enjoying driving our cars before all this PC nonsense means we are not allowed to.