Whats a good reliable car

JHMEG

maidhc, I'm not saying that the Mondeo was never any good.

I'm saying that it wasn't the best in class for 15 years running, and also that groupb shouldn't be making such sweeping claims without providing any evidence.

IMHO, the Mondeo only got good in 2000, and obviously a whole lot better with the current model. Bear in mind the current model, like the 2000 model, is ahead of the competition in terms of lifecycle, and therefore comparing an 08MY Mondeo to a much older design Vectra isn't a proper comparison.

maidhc

JHMEG wrote: »

IMHO, the Mondeo only got good in 2000, and obviously a whole lot better with the current model. Bear in mind the current model, like the 2000 model, is ahead of the competition in terms of lifecycle, and therefore comparing an 08MY Mondeo to a much older design Vectra isn't a proper comparison.

No, the mondeo was always a fantastic car. In time it will probably be regarded as the turning point for ford in europe, you can pretty much neatly divide a timeline, whereby every car produced from the 80s to 1993 by ford was pretty questionable, and everything produced after has been able to rival the germans for quality and the japs for reliability.

You are of course correct about life cycles, but the 2000 Mondeo is still superior to the 2008 vectra! Of course which car is "the best" will always been subjective, but I think the point groupb has been making is the mondeo has generally been the benchmark in the C/D segment for many years now, and it is ultimately the model VW/Honda etc put in their powerpoint presentation when briefing their engineers!

Victor_M

JHMEG wrote: »

What about a BMW?

My Vote goes to Honda;)

groupb

I'm not saying that every single mondeo has beaten every other contender in every single test. Its just that generally speaking it has been top of its class ( according to Autocar & Car magazine ) since 93' . As I said in my own experience thats also been the case.I went from a 97' mondeo to a 02' A4 (not my choice) and the mondeo was a far superior car dynamically. Don't tell me that you honestly believe that a 97' vectra for instance was a superior car to a 97' mondeo. If you do have you ever driven a mondeo?
Back to the OP , if the mondeo does'nt do anything for you , the mazda 6 & the accord have good reputations also although i'm not sure what running costs are.
BTW I'd read that autozine article again if I was you.

JHMEG

groupb wrote:

Find me a journal that says the mondeo does'nt lead its class.

groupb wrote:

I'm not saying that every single mondeo has beaten every other contender in every single test.

I've driven auld Primeras and auld Mondeo (and auld Carinas, Cavaliers and Accords), and going on experience rather than magazines I'd put the auld Primera above the auld Mondeo, tho the memory has well faded by now. Not by a lot tho, as all those auld cars mentioned are very similar.

Victor_M wrote: »

My Vote goes to Honda;)

Not got a BMW to suggest?

unkel

maidhc wrote: »

No, the mondeo was always a fantastic car. In time it will probably be regarded as the turning point for ford in europe, you can pretty much neatly divide a timeline, whereby every car produced from the 80s to 1993 by ford was pretty questionable, and everything produced after has been able to rival the germans for quality and the japs for reliability

Interesting point. I've heard about the turning point theory starting with the arrival of the Focus in '97 but your theory makes more sense. The Mk 1 Mondeo was much better built and more reliable than anything Ford had come up with in a generation. Also Jaguar build quality was turned completely around by '95 or so wasn't it?

JHMEG wrote: »

I'd put the auld Primera above the auld Mondeo

In terms of being a decent drivers car, I agree. The Mondeo is better than average but the Primera is among the best of the segment. I owned a Primera for a few years. Unfortunately it was very unreliable

E92

The autozine article is if you read between the lines, is very much a qualified +1 for the Mazda. If your "priorities" are different to those that they judge cars on, then they say the Ford is the best.

If you read the car mags you'll find that the Mk3 Mondeo was easily outclassed by it's rivals towards the end of it's time(I actually thought Toyota bettered it back in 03 with the then new Avensis, for the passenger anyway, I imagine the Ford drives better but I don't know really).

JHMEG

E92 wrote: »

If you read the car mags you'll find that the Mk3 Mondeo was easily outclassed by it's rivals towards the end of it's time(I actually thought Toyota bettered it back in 03 with the then new Avensis, for the passenger anyway, the Toyota is the better car).

I haven't actually driven that model Mondeo, so I can't comment. I have the Avensis however, but I wouldn't see it as anything spectacular.

maidhc

unkel wrote: »

Interesting point. I've heard about the turning point theory starting with the arrival of the Focus in '97 but your theory makes more sense. The Mk 1 Mondeo was much better built and more reliable than anything Ford had come up with in a generation. Also Jaguar build quality was turned completely around by '95 or so wasn't it?

The Ka, 1.25 Fiesta, Puma, and (to a certain extent the 1996 facelift Escort) were all good cars by objective standards and predate the focus.

Before the mondeo we had such gems as the 1991 Escort and Scorpio! I think 1994 is the golden year as regards jaguar.

E92

maidhc wrote: »

Before the mondeo we had such gems as the 1991 Escort and Scorpio! I think 1994 is the golden year as regards jaguar.

We had the misfortune to have a MkV Escort for a few years. About the only good thing about it was it never went wrong(it was rubbish in any other measure, at least with didn't have the constant vibration and harshness engines though, instead we had the one with the Anglia derived engine, which featured a steering wheel, speedo, odometer, trip meter, gearbox, seats, doors, door locks, headlights, and windows as standard).

JHMEG

maidhc wrote: »

The Ka, 1.25 Fiesta, Puma, and (to a certain extent the 1996 facelift Escort)

OMG, I can't believe I've actually driven all these Fords you mention! But...

1.25 Feshty. I really don't get what people saw in these cars. Even tho the Corsa of the time handled like soap, it was a much nicer car imho. The Feshty was trying to be something it wasn't, with fake wood on the dash etc, and a driving position waayy too close to the windscreen. The Corsa knew its place in life.

I reckon the Ka was a crafty way for Ford to flog all the 1.3 Enduro engines they had left over after they fitted the more powerful, refined and economical 1.25 16v to the Fiesta. Still tho, body coloured metal work should not be inside the cabin, and the Ka is actually smaller than it looks (unlike the competition).

The Puma was a blast to drive, within reason. Apart from hitting my head off the A-pillar the car was pretty good. Lovely gearachange. It was the 1.6, and while quick wasn't fast. Could have done with a few more hp. But that would be my only complaint.

Escort experience is from a 1992, owned by my sister. If I had a quid for every time I saw that yoke on the back of a tow truck. And it failed its first NCT due to rust. And my sister had arms like Popeye from driving it. And.. it had that awful 1.3 Enduro engine..

unkel

JHMEG wrote: »

OMG, I can't believe I've actually driven all these Fords you mention! But...

1.25 Feshty. I really don't get what people saw in these cars

So you've driven it and you can not see the appeal? :eek:

It's nippy. It's fun to drive. Much more so than any supermini of it's generation. I drove a rental ghia back in '98 in the UK and I liked it. I had a very dim opinion of anything Ford based on my experience and this little car completely changed my view. A Ford that drove well?

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

So you've driven it and you can not see the appeal? :eek:

It's nippy. It's fun to drive.

I owned a '95 1.3 Civic DX (complete with Keihin twin venturi down draught carb) at the time, and it blew the Feshty away. Ok it was platicky and felt like there was nothing to it, but its limits were sooo much higher...

Altho, a mate owned a '95 Golf CL at the same time. I can see the difference there. The Golf's handling reminded me of Emerald Star's finest.

moe_sizlak

unkel wrote: »

Interesting point. I've heard about the turning point theory starting with the arrival of the Focus in '97 but your theory makes more sense. The Mk 1 Mondeo was much better built and more reliable than anything Ford had come up with in a generation. Also Jaguar build quality was turned completely around by '95 or so wasn't it?



In terms of being a decent drivers car, I agree. The Mondeo is better than average but the Primera is among the best of the segment. I owned a Primera for a few years. Unfortunately it was very unreliable

the focus was not available to buy untill early 1999 , think it was launched in late 1998

Henry Ford III

Later Escorts were awful to be fair. Apart from Cosworth models.

If I had to spend 8 hours a day in a car, I'd want a big car, auto., diesel, with leather etc.

Merc. E270CDI?

groupb

E92 wrote: »

The autozine article is if you read between the lines, is very much a qualified +1 for the Mazda. If your "priorities" are different to those that they judge cars on, then they say the Ford is the best.

If you read the car mags you'll find that the Mk3 Mondeo was easily outclassed by it's rivals towards the end of it's time(I actually thought Toyota bettered it back in 03 with the then new Avensis, for the passenger anyway, I imagine the Ford drives better but I don't know really).

what car mags?

JHMEG

groupb wrote: »

what car mags?

Why does E92 have to provide sources and you don't?

groupb, I think it's fair to say the Mondeo hasn't been the best car in its class since 1993. There have been other cars in the last 15 years that have been better.

Biro

maidhc wrote: »

The Ka, 1.25 Fiesta, Puma, and (to a certain extent the 1996 facelift Escort) were all good cars by objective standards and predate the focus.

Before the mondeo we had such gems as the 1991 Escort and Scorpio! I think 1994 is the golden year as regards jaguar.

Ah come on! The Escort? That was a piece of muck. It was so bad, Ford had to work overtime and introduce independant rear suspension in the Focus to banish memories of the Escort! And they still were trying to get rid of Escort stock for 4 years after the Focus was introduced!

The Mk2 Mondeo wasn't much of a class leader really. Good chassis dynamics that followed from the first, but apart from that fairly harmless. The Mk 3, which used the Passat as it's bench mark, was an excellent car. That was until Mazda brought out the 6, which I can't think of one single way in which the Ford is better. My biggest problem with Fords is that I can't get comfortable in the drivers seat. I feel like I'm sitting on them rather than in them. No matter how good the chassis is, that hinders the driving experience a little. Therefore, the 6 is a nicer car to drive than the Mondeo.
Plus the last landmark Ford engine was probably in the Mk 2 Escort RS1800.

Biro

groupb wrote: »

what car mags?

Autocar and What Car both rated the B6 Passat ahead of the Mk 3 Mondeo, and actually the 407 was rated a better drivers car.

groupb

Jog my memory. I don't remember autocar ever putting a passat above a mondeo and for the life of me having driven both over long distances , I could'nt see any reason why they would. The OP did say that he wanted a new car because his passat was too soft.
I had a mk2 mondeo and can't think of a car at the time (bar possibly the 406) which bettered it.
Can't disagree with you about the escort though. An absolute heap. Those were the days when ford europe was run by beancounters.

maidhc

Biro wrote: »

Ah come on! The Escort? That was a piece of muck.

By the time the escort was at the end of its life it wasn't all that bad! The two facelifts it had helped to improve it dramatically by all accounts . I'm not saying it was a great car, or even a very good car, but that it improved dramatically post 1993!

Henry Ford III

Biro wrote: »

Plus the last landmark Ford engine was probably in the Mk 2 Escort RS1800.

The BDA engine was a belt driven type A, originally based on an Anglia engine. This was mated to a Cosworth developed 16v head.

The earlier Escort RS1600 MkI had a similar BDA engine too.

The only differences were displacement, and an all alloy block in the later MkII

Biro

groupb wrote: »

Jog my memory. I don't remember autocar ever putting a passat above a mondeo and for the life of me having driven both over long distances , I could'nt see any reason why they would. The OP did say that he wanted a new car because his passat was too soft.
I had a mk2 mondeo and can't think of a car at the time (bar possibly the 406) which bettered it.
Can't disagree with you about the escort though. An absolute heap. Those were the days when ford europe was run by beancounters.

If I find the issue, I'll scan the report. Nearly sure I have it.
To be honest, you're kind of portraying the image that the B6 Passat is nothing but a pile of pure and utter junk and the Mk 3 Mondeo like automotive perfection. While I certainly can't argue with your opinion, and even on the face of the comparison, you could be right in saying that the Mk 3 Mondeo is better than the B6 Passat, but there isn't a whole lot between them. The Passat is quieter and better insulated, they both handle well (surprisingly the Passat does handle quite nicely, possibly 4th in its class), the Ford would be better handling, but mainly the Ford has the steering which is better. Apart from that, there isn't night and day between them.
Anyway, I still can't think of a single way in which the Mondeo is better than the 6. (New models in each excepted, haven't driven either yet).

maidhc

Biro wrote: »

Anyway, I still can't think of a single way in which the Mondeo is better than the 6. (New models in each excepted, haven't driven either yet).

I don't think Ford's shareholders will hold that against you too much

zilog_jones

JHMEG wrote: »

The Feshty was trying to be something it wasn't, with fake wood on the dash etc, and a driving position waayy too close to the windscreen.

Only the fancy ones have fake wood. Dunno what you're on about with the driving position - you tall?

I reckon the Ka was a crafty way for Ford to flog all the 1.3 Enduro engines they had left over after they fitted the more powerful, refined and economical 1.25 16v to the Fiesta.

The Fiesta was available with the 1.3 Endura-E until 2002 and the Fiesta Classic (i.e. the Mk. III) was still in production with said engine until 1997. Escort still had it too. Any Mk. IV (pre-facelift) Fiesta that doesn't have a "Zetec" or "16V" badge has an Endura-E... or a 1.8 diesel...

groupb

Biro wrote: »

If I find the issue, I'll scan the report. Nearly sure I have it.
To be honest, you're kind of portraying the image that the B6 Passat is nothing but a pile of pure and utter junk and the Mk 3 Mondeo like automotive perfection. While I certainly can't argue with your opinion, and even on the face of the comparison, you could be right in saying that the Mk 3 Mondeo is better than the B6 Passat, but there isn't a whole lot between them. The Passat is quieter and better insulated, they both handle well (surprisingly the Passat does handle quite nicely, possibly 4th in its class), the Ford would be better handling, but mainly the Ford has the steering which is better. Apart from that, there isn't night and day between them.
Anyway, I still can't think of a single way in which the Mondeo is better than the 6. (New models in each excepted, haven't driven either yet).[/QUOTE

In fairness there are a lot of passats on the road but in my experience , they do'nt warrant their popularity. And yes I will admit they are probably closer to the top of the class than the bottom. I do however refer back to the OP who stated that he found his passat "soft" and was looking for a more durable car which in my opinion is the mondeo. I don't know enough about the mazda 6 , but in fairness it has a good reputation. I was'nt saying that the mondeo is automotive perfection , but I just can't think of any car in the segement that I would rather have on a day to day basis. I think its got a very broad range of talents. I've had two and second hand the mk3 model is excellent value. BTW page 84 of last weeks autocar quotes the mazda 6 "2nd in the class ,Good looks and good fun , but not quite up to the Mondeo's level".
The back page of that edition also has an article which refers to the mk1 mondeo as "the car that changed family travel for ever".

Biro

In fairness there are a lot of passats on the road but in my experience , they do'nt warrant their popularity. And yes I will admit they are probably closer to the top of the class than the bottom. I do however refer back to the OP who stated that he found his passat "soft" and was looking for a more durable car which in my opinion is the mondeo. I don't know enough about the mazda 6 , but in fairness it has a good reputation. I was'nt saying that the mondeo is automotive perfection , but I just can't think of any car in the segement that I would rather have on a day to day basis. I think its got a very broad range of talents. I've had two and second hand the mk3 model is excellent value. BTW page 84 of last weeks autocar quotes the mazda 6 "2nd in the class ,Good looks and good fun , but not quite up to the Mondeo's level".
The back page of that edition also has an article which refers to the mk1 mondeo as "the car that changed family travel for ever".

Ah ya, that's a more reasoned post from ya!

@Maidhc - Still, seeing as the 6 is made by Mazda with Mazda designed engines then the Ford engineers can't be overjoyed!

E92

WhatCar? preferred the Avensis to the Mk3 Mondeo ever since it came out back in 03. It won their "family car of the year" award right up until the B6 Passat came out(the Passat got the gong in 2006).

Similarly, they preferred the Honda Accord that came out in 1998 to the Mondeo of the time(till Ford brought in the Mk3 Mondeo in 01).

Others too preferred other cars, Irish Car Mags preferred the Avensis to the Ford too from memory(the original Avensis at that, how they thought it was a better car than the Ford is beyond me, since all it was is a reskinned Carina E).

Generally the Mondeo starts off being the favourite, and about halfway through it gets outclassed in the opinion of the Motoring journos(and to be fair, you can't be on top all the time either).

groupb

So we all broadly agree that he should get a mondeo? (tongue in cheek)
OP , Whatever car you get , good luck.