Unionist wearing orange sash addresses Sin Fein Ard Fheis

Pathfinder

turgon wrote: »

The Bottom Line Here:

THE NATIONALISTS KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE
THE UNIONISTS KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE

Who do you think yee are trying to say one side is better than the other?

Haven't yee actually read a bit of history, other than a select article on Wikipedia? Because if you do read history you will realize it was all a case of one side committing an atrocity, and the other replying as such.

SO ALL THAT HAS TO BE PUT IN THE PAST

Hearing of an unionist speaking at an Ard Deis is absolutely fantastic. Since I watched the reinstatement of power sharing, all I see are things becoming better. Whether the north is a part of Britain, Ireland, England, Scotland, Germany is NOT the main thing - once there is peace

Claiming the forces of law and democracy are the same as the PIRA and committed the same acts of terrorism is deeply insulting to the hundreds of Police, soldiers that the PIRA murdered as well as the hundreds of civilians the PIRA murdered.


Leaking the details of PIRA terrorists (who are targeting you for murder) to loyalists is at worse criminal, bit not the same as planting bombs in shopping centres.

turgon

Pathfinder, one of the main bones of contention up the north is that the forces there were not democratic. For example in 1970's it took two years of internment of Catholics only before loyalist were interred too. Is that fair?

The system up there was democratic. That is why the civil rights movement started in the first place.

The army was not democratic or fair. That is why they killed 13 people in Derry for no reason.

Did you hear of any protestants being intentionally killed by the police or army in the same way as catholics?? I didnt. So it is not fair to accuse the IRA of fighting a democratic force.

leincar

Pathfinder wrote: »

All a bit rich after Sinn Fein/PIRA has just been trying to bomb unionists out of the north for 35 years.

You don't seriously expect to be taken seriously ?
.

If it wasn't for the FRU etc in the north you would still be planting bombs.

The only reason you stopped is because the war was taken to you.

Why should people you have bombed for 35 years have any time for you ?

I could not agree more with the above message. I would also like to add that most people in the republic have no time for Sinn Fein as shown at the last general election.

A united Ireland would however would at least help to get rid of Sinn Fein. They would be left with nothing to campaign about. The one trick pony would have lost its trick.

STEVO B

turgon wrote: »

I dont think thats strictly true. And its all about the political ideology of wanting a separate country. I mean in practice what will a independent Scotland achieve? Even though I am for it....

If your going to have a political ideology is might aswell start with the removing the heaviest shackels, namely those of a united Europe, before worrying about the smaller fish. I fear we have been hoodwinked with the whole united ireland debate while a much bigger predator, the EU, was lurking and evidently swallowed us whole.

Pathfinder

turgon wrote: »

Pathfinder, one of the main bones of contention up the north is that the forces there were not democratic. For example in 1970's it took two years of internment of Catholics only before loyalist were interred too. Is that fair?

The system up there was democratic. That is why the civil rights movement started in the first place.

The army was not democratic or fair. That is why they killed 13 people in Derry for no reason.

Did you hear of any protestants being intentionally killed by the police or army in the same way as catholics?? I didnt. So it is not fair to accuse the IRA of fighting a democratic force.

But the civil rights movement had achieved its objectives by 71.

After that NI was democratic, one man one vote.

The killing of 13 civilians was obviously a tragic incident, but armies are a last tool of resort and if armed soldiers, many who are still teenagers, are in daily conflict with civilians such things will sometimes happen.

Credit to the BA in 35 years such incidents were so rare.

Loyalists were not shot on demos because they by and large were not constantly hostile to the security forces and had far fewer demos.


If the IRA had not risen again the whole thing could have been sorted 35 years ago.

turgon

Ok I dont want to sound like a teacher but some enlightenment is needed here.

The Emergence of the Provisional IRA, 1969 - 1971

In 1969, following the battle of the Bogside and the Belfast riots, security control was moved to Westminster, London, and the British Army was deployed on the streets. They were originally greeted lovingly by that catholic community - footage exists of catholics giving the soldiers tea. However things went down hill from here.

Firstly the Stormont government was still all loyalist. They failed to ban orange marches - stupid considering that they were always major starting points for two sided riots.

Now the single greatest boost to the PIRA was the falls road curfew (June 1970) when the British Army put a 34 hour curfew on the catholics in falls road. They then began searching for arms- but by searching I mean going in and destroying peoples houses, uprooting furniture and all that. The result was that the PIRA grew to a force of 800 by then end of 1970. (The PIRA numbered about 60 in August 1969)

Now the unionist PM Faulkner, decided to introduce internment for catholics in August of 1971. This was a disaster and yet another boost for the PIRA. Of course, there was no internment for loyalist terrorists.

The results of internment: 10 DEAD on the FIRST day, 35 dead in the next three weeks. 7,000 catholics FLEEDED the North to the Republic of Ireland, which was the largest enforced movement of people in Europe since the end of the second world war.

Yes, i concede the civil rights movement had achieved a lot. But they were still being treated badly by the unionist government. And Bloody Sunday, which resulted from a march against internment, was just around the corner.

Preceeding article written by myself, base on notes of D. Lucey (man who wrote the book for the leaving cert Modern Europe history course).

turgon

Like I dont mean to insult, but I think very few people know what they are talking about when they talk about the North. Not being cocky, but we just finished studying Northern Ireland 1949 - 1993 in history so im fairly well informed. I base all my arguments on the facts learned there, which i think everyone should.

leincar

turgon wrote: »

Like I dont mean to insult, but I think very few people know what they are talking about when they talk about the North. Not being cocky, but we just finished studying Northern Ireland 1949 - 1993 in history so im fairly well informed. I base all my arguments on the facts learned there, which i think everyone should.

Unfortunately many of us are of an age where for 30 years we had to listen to the vitriolic hatred of both sides. Every other day we were confronted by media pictures and articles of destruction, maiming and murder.

Sadly it took Sinn Fein 35 years to recognise that murder is murder is murder. Now we can hopefully look forward to the day when the extremes of both sides have gone away.

A Dub in Glasgo

Pathfinder wrote: »

The killing of 13 14 civilians was obviously a tragic incident, but armies are a last tool of resort and if armed soldiers, many who are still teenagers, are in daily conflict with civilians such things will sometimes happen.

Credit to the BA in 35 years such incidents were so rare.

Corrected that for you

The BA used methods to terrorise the civilian population in Nationalist areas therefore they are terrorists

A Dub in Glasgo

leincar wrote: »

recognise that murder is murder is murder. .

Classic quote from Thatcher except when it involves the British state

leincar

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Classic quote from Thatcher except when it involves the British state

I was never a fan of Thatcher but the central theme is true. Also at the time the IRA maintained it was in a war. If so, so be it.

People seem to forget and maybe its a form of revisionism but, Sinn Fein never had the support of people in the Republic even in the dark days of the 70's and 80's. In fact just 1 year after Bloody Sunday the so called Nationalist party of the South(Fianna Fail) lost power to Fine Gael/Labour.

I think this shows that Republican extremism had no base in the South as extreme Loyalism had no large mandate in the North. Both of these extremes had to be funded by crime and external funding. Distasteful as it seems and despite the fact that Thatcher said it murder is and was wrong.

turgon

leincar wrote: »

I think this shows that Republican extremism had no base in the South as extreme Loyalism had no large mandate in the North. Both of these extremes had to be funded by crime and external funding. Distasteful as it seems and despite the fact that Thatcher said it murder is and was wrong.

I echo this opinion. No mandate at all, and thats a major point that must be made.

A Dub in Glasgo

leincar wrote: »

I was never a fan of Thatcher but the central theme is true. Also at the time the IRA maintained it was in a war. If so, so be it.

Correct the IRA did see it as a war but the British state did not yet they carried out hundreds of murders and got away with it. Obviously the British state (& their apologists) do not believe in the dictum 'murder is murder is murder'

leincar

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Correct the IRA did see it as a war but the British state did not yet they carried out hundreds of murders and got away with it. Obviously the British state (& their apologists) do not believe in the dictum 'murder is murder is murder'

If a dog is snapping at your ankle's sooner or later you bite back. It was a dirty war and whatever the rights or wrongs of history on balance I think the IRA were dirtier.

leincar

Babybing wrote: »

Can I just say how brilliant it was to see this.


I am a nationalist and Sinn Fein supporter and I believe the unionist people, their cultures and traditions, are an integral part of this island.

I would absolutely love to someday see unionists and nationalist living in harmony in a united Ireland. Some may think that will never happen, but today was a step towards that, no matter how small.


What are peoples opinions on this?

Getting back to the original post maybe Sinn Fein are growing up a bit judging by the reception the Unionist got at the Ard Fheis.

I wonder what sort of reception would a Nationalist/Republican get at a DUP party conference?

murphaph

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Corrected that for you

The BA used methods to terrorise the civilian population in Nationalist areas therefore they are terrorists

You pay taxes to

which fund these "terrorists" as you call them. I think for someone with such negative views on the institutions of the british state you probably shouldn't live there and contribute to their economy and therefore, military

A Dub in Glasgo

murphaph wrote: »

You pay taxes to

which fund these "terrorists" as you call them.

I know, no matter how hard I try not to pay, I fail

I think for someone with such negative views on the institutions of the british state you probably shouldn't live there and contribute to their economy and therefore, military

Living in Scotland has many plus points. These plus points do not mean I am not allowed to condemn the murder and mayhem that Britain has introduced.
Really, what is the point of your bit above?

A Dub in Glasgo

leincar wrote: »

If a dog is snapping at your ankle's sooner or later you bite back. It was a dirty war and whatever the rights or wrongs of history on balance I think the IRA were dirtier.

Maybe a dirty war but I thought 'murder is murder is murder'? or is it more a case of 'your murder is dirtier than our murder is murder is murder'?

gurramok

murphaph wrote: »

You pay taxes to

which fund these "terrorists" as you call them. I think for someone with such negative views on the institutions of the british state you probably shouldn't live there and contribute to their economy and therefore, military

Do you condemn the murder of 6 'Catholics' shot dead including 1 non-aligned kids on 9th July 1972 by the BA? (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/1972.html)

cain wrote:

09 July 1972 Margaret Gargan (13) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: British Army (BA)
Shot by sniper from British Army (BA) observation post in Corry's Timber Yard, while walking along Westrock Drive, Ballymurphy, Belfast.

If your wondering, i also condemn the murders of others no matter what they were on that fateful day.

Point being, the murder of innocent Nationalists have been long overlooked. :mad:

gurramok

leincar wrote: »

If a dog is snapping at your ankle's sooner or later you bite back. It was a dirty war and whatever the rights or wrongs of history on balance I think the IRA were dirtier.

Despicable.

Have a read at http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/index.html to recap on what happened.

Killings of innocents by state are equally condemned as killings by non-state by all right thinking people.

leincar

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Maybe a dirty war but I thought 'murder is murder is murder'? or is it more a case of 'your murder is dirtier than our murder is murder is murder'?

That's not my point at all. If you wish it can be expressed as dirty murder is dirty murder is dirty murder. I'm certainly not an apologist for British forces but I certainly would not lie down if I was attacked. I don't think any government would.

murphaph

gurramok wrote: »

Do you condemn the murder...

I don't need to read the "by british army" bit because my answer is yes because I automatically condemn all murders without hesitation. I don't need to think about it to see can it be justified by my warped sense of political ideaology. The BA were responsible for killing how many catholics again? Was it perchance a handful in comparison the the 700 catholics killed by your pals?

gurramok wrote: »

Point being, the murder of innocent Nationalists have been long overlooked.

lol, you're joking right? We will never hear the end of it from the Most Opressed People on Earth.

leincar

gurramok wrote: »

Despicable.

Have a read at http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/index.html to recap on what happened.

Killings of innocents by state are equally condemned as killings by non-state by all right thinking people.

That was my point exactly!!!!

murphaph

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Really, what is the point of your bit above?

My point is simple. If you truly believe the position of british forces in Ireland is unnaceptable then you could leave Britain and move back to Ireland and stop part-funding the british military machine.

leincar

gurramok wrote: »

Do you condemn the murder of 6 'Catholics' shot dead including 1 non-aligned kids on 9th July 1972 by the BA? (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/1972.html)


If your wondering, i also condemn the murders of others no matter what they were on that fateful day.

Point being, the murder of innocent Nationalists have been long overlooked. :mad:

So that can be summed up as:

All murders are equal but some murders are more equal then other murders!!!!!

gurramok

murphaph wrote: »

I don't need to read the "by british army" bit because my answer is yes because I automatically condemn all murders without hesitation. I don't need to think about it to see can it be justified by my warped sense of political ideaology. The BA were responsible for killing how many catholics again? Was it perchance a handful in comparison the the 700 catholics killed by your pals?

Good to hear you condemn any killing by any side.

Who are my pals btw?...Just because i raise an issue of killings by BA which have not ended up in court(justice ya know), you try and lump me with the IRA apologists, comedian among us?

murphaph wrote: »

lol, you're joking right? We will never hear the end of it from the Most Opressed People on Earth.

What are you on about?

gurramok

leincar wrote: »

So that can be summed up as:

All murders are equal but some murders are more equal then other murders!!!!!

Yes, like in Animal Farm

Murders of innocents are equal no matter if the bullet came from the end of a IRA gun or a BA gun hence the lack of justice.

A Dub in Glasgo

murphaph wrote: »

My point is simple. If you truly believe the position of british forces in Ireland is unnaceptable then you could leave Britain and move back to Ireland and stop part-funding the british military machine.

That is no point at all. If people disagree with part of a government approach, they should just **** off out of the country?

I have seen you moan like **** on this forum about the FF government re: corruption which you are part funding, a stock response should be: Stop the moaning or get the **** out of the country as by staying you are accepting the corruption. That is really your point?

TOMASJ

.

murphaph wrote: »

For heaven's sake, will you use some p.u.n.c.t.u.a.t.i.o.n? your posts are impossible to read sometimes.

For murphaph try reading this again let me know what part you do not understand
You need to check the facts.
Stone ran to the M1 moterway towards a waiting white transit van that had been parked there for several hours on the verge of the M1 motorway.
To the left side of where he entered the M1.
When it drove off he ran to the right side away from the city was caught by the mourners put in a passing car and rescued by his comrades (the ruc) a short while later

TOMASJ

murphaph wrote: »

My point is simple. If you truly believe the position of british forces in Ireland is unnaceptable then you could leave Britain and move back to Ireland and stop part-funding the british military machine.

Can I ask where you live if you live in the 26 countys I think by your own logic you are in the wrong country