Revival Post: Digital Outboard or Plugins?

sei046

Well lads... to get things back to adult talk.

Like in the case of outboard digital reverbs...Whats the difference then in just using a plugin. If your not going to use a plate and some springs why not use a plugin??!?!


I presume the likes of lexicon and those dont put their really good algorithms in plugins? And would the dedicated PSU and circuit board etc all for better processing?

studiorat

I'm busy posting today!!!

Well! There's always the issue of delays if you are using Pro-Tools LE with outboard but reverb or delay shouldn't be too much of a problem. I like to use outboard reverb from time to time. I guess I like some of the verbs on my TC M5000 more than the plug-ins, I don't have a non-linear reverb plug-in and I like to use those on snares. I picked up the M5000 on ebay for just over €800. I'll also use outboard for the Transient Designer and Automated filter and a smelly old tape delay.

Some of the older reverbs are very useful, although they may not be realistic they have a particular sound that's desirable. I'm a big fan of the REV 5 and the AMS reverbs. I would guess there's not much in the way of Plug-ins that sound like a Massive Passive either!

sei046

Ye i have the Rev 5 and I LOVE IT! I actually dont use it on tracks. i must start. Its in my cans. It just sounds so nice

studiorat

I'd like a REV 5 with just prog. 17 on it. Love that echo room!!

jtsuited

for some reason I still get excited by the roland space echo. Although if the tape speed starts arsing around on one of them, don't volunteer yourself to take a look. I learned this the hard way.
with convolution reverbs like Altiverb and Logic's Space Designer, I don't really see the need for buying things like a lexicon m480 (although i saw a few of them go for bargains on ebay about a year ago). But then again, I like keeping things simple.

jtsuited

speaking of reverbs. if any company, hardware or software came out with an 'Exit music (for a film)' reverb setting, they'd sell a shedload. Every time i hear that song all I can hear is the beautiful reverb. Apparently it was a mixture of an AMS reverb and some weird thing where they recorded the vocal being reflected off a kitchen floor.

sei046

can I just say its nice to hear some nice proper recording talk

studiorat

I just like the sound of stuff going through my wem copicat, even if I'm not using the delay. It just seems to take the edges of some guitar and snare sounds.

I see in Sound on Sound that some guys who worked at Lexicon have gotten together and released an new hardware reverb unit. Personally I'd love an AMS rmx-16. 16-bit reverb! vintage cool!

sei046

isnt that the Breverb?

PaulBrewer

The TC Plugins are the same as the Algorithms as their Hi end Hardware units, so too are the Waves - well that's what the reps say....

Theoretically they'd sound exactly the same once the connection is digital, though I've not done an A/B.

The difference will be if you're driving the units with an analogue in/out or digital i/o....

i.e. the difference will be the 'sound' of the A2d/D2a and analogue circuitry on the FX unit combined with the effect of your soundcard analogue i/o.

Units like the New Lexicon have a analogue, digital, ethernet AND Firwire to cover all eventualities!..... and the ability to edit, save and create presets controlled from your computer and saved as part of the song.

A Hardware Plugin if you will!

I think the same argument applies to hardware units as Consoles - for a pure organic way of working where the Right Brain dominates the proceedings, consoles and hardware units with grabable buttons are the way to go.
This is the way most pros I know prefer to work ( I'll mention NO names!:rolleyes:)

I hope I'm making myself clear , I'm not too sure after the last few days shenanigans!!

Bren_M.Records

Im hoping to get back working on my own stuff soon so this topic is something Iv actually been doing a bit of research on of late.
I'm of the opinion now that Im gonna get either (funds allowing) a uad card or a Duendo.
I dont do any real serious vocal stuff or use anything like accoustic guitars etc. so anything above and beyond the options Iv mentioned above would be overkill for me.
I would of course like a really nice reverb unit and everyone raves about the high end Lexicon's but again because of the type of music I do and my budget Im probably going to go for a convoluted reverb, though I havnt decided which one yet.

studiorat

Hey Bren. What DAW are you using?

Bren_M.Records

Cubase SX, gonna upgrade to Cubase 4 thought when the next major bugfix for it is out.
Yourself?

studiorat

Does that have delay compensation? For say using a hardware eq or something?

Mainly Protools HD, know a bit of logic and ableton though. For fun I like ableton. I use it or reason to run click tracks into 'tools now and again.

frobisher

studiorat wrote: »

Does that have delay compensation? For say using a hardware eq or something?

From what I recall Cubase 4 does indeed have delay compensation. I think it's going to cause a bit of a flood of money that would normally have gone elsewhere into hardware units being used as mojo boxes. All those Cubase users are going to want to take advantage of that new feature. I could be wrong but I'd say it's a good time to be a boutique compressor manufacturer!

In relation to the reverbs, I use alot less of them of them in the box than I ever used to do outside the box. Maybe everyone's style changes over time, and it might just be that. But without having A-B'ed them in action I still feel that the standard plug in 'verbs don't have that element of gorgous-ness that excites the ear. That said I'm not talking about the high end expensive plug-ins so maybe a few €000's will bring that missing element.

A few years ago I bought a load of gear off a guy. Part of the package was an American mulit-fx unit called Rocktron Intellifex which he swore I'd love once I heard it. I was very sceptical. He was right though. I absolutely loved it and the engineers working in my studio used to borrow it sometimes even when they were in some of the better known Dublin studios. Quite a surpise really. I later sold pretty much all my gear but that was the one thing I regreted not having when I got back to recording. So i bought it again. And will one day buy another one too. Great external reverb for the price.

PaulBrewer

frobisher wrote: »

I could be wrong but I'd say it's a good time to be a boutique compressor manufacturer!

But without having A-B'ed them in action I still feel that the standard plug in 'verbs don't have that element of gorgous-ness that excites the ear.

That said I'm not talking about the high end expensive plug-ins so maybe a few €000's will bring that missing element.

A.

Yes, more and more hardware gear is being made, I know the bould StudioRat was blown away by a certain bit of valve gear he tried recently! But it doesn't have to be boutique with their higher than 'mass market' prices - there are great boxes at reasonable prices available - there's a couple coming at Frankfurt I'm bursting to tell about, but.........

Plugins are like everything else in life, ya get wha ya pays for. The big expensive brands like Waves and TC all represent top tools, but with a price to match. My understanding is there should be no reason why a plugin shouldn't sound as good as a hardware unit - after all they're both just programs running on a computer - in the hardware units case a purpose built
'computer'

"That said I'm not talking about the high end expensive plug-ins so maybe a few €000's will bring that missing element."

Hell Yea!

Bren_M.Records

studiorat wrote: »

Does that have delay compensation? For say using a hardware eq or something?

Mainly Protools HD, know a bit of logic and ableton though. For fun I like ableton. I use it or reason to run click tracks into 'tools now and again.

I think pretty much all DAWS have delay compensation for plugins now.
Wouldnt have a clue about delay compensation for hardware to be honest as Im totally pc based now apart from a controller keyboard.
I will get at least one pure analog synth at some stage but I think that will be about the extent of my hardware going forward.
As I say, for the type of music Im into (house/club) a Duende or Uad card should be more than enough.

ogy

think pretty much all DAWS have delay compensation for plugins now

as far as I know the only version of Protools which has plug-in delay compensation is Protools HD (except for the native plug-ins that come with other versions). Thats the main reason i use Cubase

Bren_M.Records

ogy wrote: »

as far as I know the only version of Protools which has plug-in delay compensation is Protools HD (except for the native plug-ins that come with other versions). Thats the main reason i use Cubase

Didnt know that, kind of surprised to be honest as you would think a program like protools would have all the bells and whistles so to speak.

PaulBrewer

It's one of the reasons things like the Focusrite Liquid Mix is 'awkward' to use with PT - ole Digidesign run a tight ship!!

studiorat

Only PT HD has delay compensation for both inserts to the interface and plug-in inserts, LE doesn't.

I do a bit of Tech/House and a bit of Hip Hop now and again. Ableton split into seperate tracks and into Pro Tools. I nearly always send the kiks through the SPL transient designer. I suppose it's the same as changing the attack and release on the drum sampler.

Bren_M.Records

PaulBrewer wrote: »

It's one of the reasons things like the Focusrite Liquid Mix is 'awkward' to use with PT - ole Digidesign run a tight ship!!

Kind of an apples/oranges question this as Liquid Mix tries to replicate many different models where as Duende focuses on one but I was just wondering if you or anyone else on the forum has a view as to which does a better job on the vintage eq and compressor front.
You would imagen it would be Duende as its takes the "master of one" approach, but you never know I suppose................