Lombard wins Nationals

myflipflops

i wasn't there but i've been told he looked very good in beating Cragg. Any opinions on his return?

Common Sense

If he's clean (unfortunately, I've got to preface my remarks), I say fair play to him. I totally abhor the use of drugs in our sport and would probably support life bans. But the rules are there and Lombard, under these rules, is entitled to compete. There should be no wringing of hands - what's done is done.

Clum

Good race report here on the bbc website.

Dodge

Previously discussed here

epo addict

Cathal is king:)

TheRoadRunner

I was at the race today. He looked very strong and I reckon he had another gear if he was pushed.

I was cheering for every single person behind him. It was surreal, when he ran past me there was an erey silence, once the rest of the runners came through the roars and cheers went up from the spectators.

I personally was disappointed that he won to be honest. I have no time for drug offenders even if they are reformed and clean, so I didn't applaud him at the finish.

aburke

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

I was cheering for every single person behind him. It was surreal, when he ran past me there was an erey silence, once the rest of the runners came through the roars and cheers went up from the spectators.

Yep I was there too, and had the 'honour' of being lapped by the top 8.
It was an unusual experience. When Lomard went past, silence. When all the others went past, plenty of roaring and shouting.

deadlybuzz

I'm also disappointed that he won. All the same, I'll be interested to see how he gets on at Rotterdam. Anyone think he has the capability to meet the Olympic qualifying standard, or even targeting it? If he made it, and in (admittedly unlikely) event that he was then to be selected by OCI, it would be a big story for Irish athletics going into the Olympics. Fagan vs. Lombard ? Well, I know who I would be shouting for.

TheRoadRunner

based on his run on Saturday I wouldn't rule him making 2.15 for the marathon ! Its a totally different event but he looked incredibly strong.

What is the selection policy for the Irish olympic council ? Do they have a lifetime time from the Olympics similar to the British ?

violator13

Was Lombard tested after the race even? Surely the top three from any national race should be tested.Im sure he is not stupid enough to get caught again,or is he? It was some run if he is clean,and shows what can be done. But there will be always doubts against any drug cheat. it would have been nice to hear him say how he wanted to prove himself again while drug free.

Pherekydes

violator13 wrote: »

it would have been nice to hear him say how he wanted to prove himself again while drug free.

He's been saying that since he tested positive, 4 years ago.

I believe Cariss will be attempting to gain selection for the marathon, too. Ireland could have 3 representatives in Beijing.

DaveH

Lombard and Clohissey were tested after the race.
The fact of the matter is that EPO leaves an effect in your system for something like 10 years. So he is still reaping the effect of taking EPO 4 years ago. Remember this guy went and ran 20 Miles of the Dublin marathon while still serving his 2 year ban.

It was a sad day for irish athletics. Vinny Mulvey refused to shake hands with lombard on the podium. Alister Cragg said to many people he would find it very hard to compete in an irish team with Lombard.

As was stated earlier an eery silence greeted lombard as he went around the course. As Cliona Foley said in the SINDO(she was actually there!) muted applause greeted the winner.

Also Lombard will not be represent Ireland in The World X. He told Bernard Roe, Mick Clohissey, Richie Yeates and Simon Ryan that "he doesnt want to get annulated in the World X".

Pherekydes

DaveH wrote: »

The fact of the matter is that EPO leaves an effect in your system for something like 10 years. So he is still reaping the effect of taking EPO 4 years ago.

What fact? Where is the evidence to back this up? Studies have shown that the effects may last up to 6 weeks.

I heard Lombard will attempt the marathon qualifier in Rotterdam and that's why he's not running the WCCC.

Common Sense

Actually, I thought it was quite sad that Mulvey couldn't bring himself to shake hands. If he didn't want Lombard to win he should have beaten him on the course. When he couldn't he should have been man enough to shake his hand.

DaveH

I will have to check up on my post regarding EPO use.

As for Vinny not shaking his hand. He's spot on.

WINNERS DONT DO DRUGS.

When Lombard broke the National 10K record, he repeatally stated to Mark Carrol, Peter Matthews, Gary Murray and Vinny Mulvey he was clean. Lombard knowingly sourced and took EPO. There was no accident.

I agree with Seb Coe statements last week. Drug abuse is Drug abuse. EPO should be classed in the same status as those who willingly source and take other "recational" drugs.

The cancer of Drug abuse in athletics has normalisied it. The great David coleman refused to ackownledge any athlete who was returning to competive action. If a known abuser had won a race BBC wouldnt interview the athlete afterward.

God how I wish those days would return.

TheRoadRunner

Common Sense wrote: »

Actually, I thought it was quite sad that Mulvey couldn't bring himself to shake hands. If he didn't want Lombard to win he should have beaten him on the course. When he couldn't he should have been man enough to shake his hand.

Just because he didn't beat him doesn't mean he has to show him any sort of respect. If it were me I would have done the same.

I hope race conditions on the 13th of April are poxy !

thirtyfoot

Somewhat overshadowed by the Cathal Lombard story, Clonliffe senior men won their 5th title in a row on saturday. The best sequence of wins since the Donore team of the 60/70's its a great achievement and well done to all involved, athletes, coaches & club captain.

Rineanna

Also, let's not forget Fionnuala Britton who destroyed the field to win by 55 seconds. She's looking in class shape after the bit of early season trouble she was having; it bodes well for the 'chase come the summer time.

TheRoadRunner

Rineanna wrote: »

Also, let's not forget Fionnuala Britton who destroyed the field to win by 55 seconds. She's looking in class shape after the bit of early season trouble she was having; it bodes well for the 'chase come the summer time.

Yep quite right. She should have a great world cross also, she was flying. Definitely one of the best pieces of running I have ever seen.

The girl is class but I wonder would 10k suit her better than the steeplechase ? She is still quite young so I suppose there is plenty of time for her to move up distances

Pherekydes

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

The girl is class but I wonder would 10k suit her better than the steeplechase ? She is still quite young so I suppose there is plenty of time for her to move up distances

Inclined to agree here. I saw her in the national 1500m, and she simply does not have the basic speed for 3k. She has the heart of a lion, though.

ChickenTikka

Its very difficult to give credit for Lombard's victory. That cloud of suspicion will hang over him ... particularly when he appears from nowhere to produce a stunning performance like this. It might be different if he was reproducing a series of top class performances over a number of weeks and months.

In a video interview after the race http://www.annadalestriders.co.uk/IrelandXC/interview.htm, he seems to suggest that he's not too bothered re more top class athletics and will be focussing on business interests.

If he doesn't compete again at the top levels, its a pity for him and for the sport as opinion will be that this victory wasn't deserved.

If he competes at this level on a regular basis for a number of years and is frequently drug tested and proven clean, that's a much better way to vindicate himself than a once-off appearance and no more.

Hats off to him if he's got back to this level on his own ... but he needs to stay there for the athletics public to truely recognise his achievement after a few years back at the top. Its the only way to publicly redeem himself.

I think everyone deserves a second chance and so should Lombard. But maybe a stricter drugs testing policy should be employed for anyone returning to the sport - a sort of probation period when they are monitored more closely. This is a standard enough practise in business so could easily be extended to the sporting world.

Pherekydes

ChickenTikka wrote: »

Its very difficult to give credit for Lombard's victory. That cloud of suspicion will hang over him ... particularly when he appears from nowhere to produce a stunning performance like this. It might be different if he was reproducing a series of top class performances over a number of weeks and months.

In a video interview after the race http://www.annadalestriders.co.uk/IrelandXC/interview.htm, he seems to suggest that he's not too bothered re more top class athletics and will be focussing on business interests.

If he doesn't compete again at the top levels, its a pity for him and for the sport as opinion will be that this victory wasn't deserved.

If he competes at this level on a regular basis for a number of years and is frequently drug tested and proven clean, that's a much better way to vindicate himself than a once-off appearance and no more.

Hats off to him if he's got back to this level on his own ... but he needs to stay there for the athletics public to truely recognise his achievement after a few years back at the top. Its the only way to publicly redeem himself.

I think everyone deserves a second chance and so should Lombard. But maybe a stricter drugs testing policy should be employed for anyone returning to the sport - a sort of probation period when they are monitored more closely. This is a standard enough practise in business so could easily be extended to the sporting world.

I just saw the interview and it seems to put the dampener on the marathon in Rotterdam.

A lot of people seem to be of the view that he should just disappear. He's had his 'run of vindication' and now he should just f*** off. It would appear that that is what he is about to do. But now we have the adverse view. Maybe he should hang around and prove himself over and over. Unfortunately, the Marion Jones episode has shown us that you cannot prove you are clean. She passed 160 odd tests over many years, while all along she was on THG. With every good performance, Lombard will provoke more and ever deeper suspicion and hate. With every bad performance, it will be a case of I've told you so. In the end, he can only do what he wants or what he feels he needs to do to regain his self respect.

It's funny that you say, "If he doesn't compete again at the top levels, its a pity for him and for the sport..."

It would appear that all the clamouring for life bans seems to totally contradict this.

I also find "It might be different if he was reproducing a series of top class performances over a number of weeks and months" amusing. If you put your heart and soul into preparing for one big performance then why announce it in advance. Had the guy come out earlier and produced some big performances then lost at the nationals people would be saying how he got his prep wrong.

Racing Flat

Slow coach wrote: »

Inclined to agree here. I saw her in the national 1500m, and she simply does not have the basic speed for 3k. She has the heart of a lion, though.

Or maybe marathon? Probably doesn't have speed for track 10k although can dig it out on country. Marathon may be her best event if her body can take it.

bo-sco

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Just because he didn't beat him doesn't mean he has to show him any sort of respect. If it were me I would have done the same.

I hope race conditions on the 13th of April are poxy !

Thanks TheRoadRunner. Nice of you to put the hex on me and 20,000 others running in Rotterdam thanks to the behaviour one guy!

DaveH

HI Bo-Sco,
I see your point, but Im with Road Runner on this one. If your passionate about Irish athletics then the one thing you dont want to see is a drug cheat wearing an Irish vest in the Olympic games.

A P

bo-sco wrote: »

Thanks TheRoadRunner. Nice of you to put the hex on me and 20,000 others running in Rotterdam thanks to the behaviour one guy!

For the sake of Bo-Sco and the 20,000 others running in Rotterdam, instead of hoping for a storm on race day, maybe we should request the help of Father Neil Horan - he has a great track record of selectively stopping runners in their tracks! Win win situation!

TheRoadRunner

bo-sco wrote: »

Thanks TheRoadRunner. Nice of you to put the hex on me and 20,000 others running in Rotterdam thanks to the behaviour one guy!

OK good point. I'll rephrase. I hope a micro climate of poxy storm weather surrounds him and only him on April the 13th.

AP has a good point. If Father Horan isn't available though I may dust down my own Leprechaun suit and make the trip

Racing Flat

This is a difficult one. He's served his time, so he's elligible to run. You could argue that there should be lifetime bans - I'd agree with this - maybe there could be a minimum 2 year ban, but this could be anything form 2 years to lifetime depending on circumstances, e.g. a 18year old who was coereced into taking drugs by his coach may get a bit of leeway, whereas an educated fellow (in law nonetheless) in his mid-20s could have the book thrown at him. Then maybe things like owning up immediately, helping authorities to track down others involved etc may lead to a little leniency...But as there's nothing we can do to change the rules as they stand you'd like to think that the drug cheat who was caught would do the honorable thing and not compete anymore. But I suppose it would be a lot to expect someone who's done the dishonourable in taking drugs to do the honorable thing. People can make mistakes, so perhaps he could run in his own clubs races, maybe the Cork BHAA could allow him to run without a number and inelligible to win prizes. If someone really regretted what they did and knew it was wrong, surely they would not try to compete again.

Earlier in this thread DaveH implied effects of EPO last 10 years, someone else said 4 weeks. I don't know the answer, but I imagine that the effects of training at a higher intensity while on EPO will have long lasting effects, outlasting the effects of the drug itself. Imagine trainign for years doing 16 400s at 64secs, stuck at that level, then you take EPO and you are able to do 16 400s at 60 secs. Your legs get used to the leg turnover, your muscles learn to contract at that velocity/power, your heart and lungs work harder, the neural pathways and brain programmes for running at those speeds for that number of repetitions all get trained and surely adapt, not to mind the fact that psychologically you know your body can tolerate that work/speed. So that even after the ban, I imagine someone may well be able to train harder and as a result perform better, even though the actual substance may be no longer having a direct effect. Hence I support a lifetime ban.

Another thing that strikes me is that this is a huge issue now that he has won. I wonder if he had come 30th or something would anyone be talking about it. That's a bit sad I think. People may feel unfortunate for the one who comes second to a drug cheat but what about the fellow who came 31st??? Also, other athletes spoke out after the race about not wanting to be in team with him, not shaking his hand etc. Maybe only because he won. If they really felt strongly a better approach may have been if they all refused to run, let him go off on his own on the gun, then run their own unofficial race afterwards...

TheRoadRunner

Racing Flat wrote: »

Earlier in this thread DaveH implied effects of EPO last 10 years, someone else said 4 weeks. I don't know the answer, but I imagine that the effects of training at a higher intensity while on EPO will have long lasting effects, outlasting the effects of the drug itself.

Agree with you there. And I think Cragg was hinting at this also in the interview he gave immediately after the race.

Racing Flat wrote: »

If they really felt strongly a better approach may have been if they all refused to run, let him go off on his own on the gun, then run their own unofficial race afterwards...

I don't think this was really ever an option. As you said under the current system he is eligible to run. I think the reaction of the guys who finished behind him was justified.

I think the crowd on Saturday have to be complimented also. The majority didn't cheer him but at the same time they were neither rude or abusive

dreddie

He used EPO, he got caught, he admitted he was guilty, he did his time! (Debt to society repaid, he is not an axe-murderer etc).
He has returned within the rules and conditions laid down for him and legitimately won.
If people have a problem with this they need to address it to administrators and seek to have the rules changed. Otherwise accept the result.
I strongly condemn drug use in sport but once the suspension is done it's time to move on.

thirtyfoot

dreddie wrote: »

He used EPO, he got caught, he admitted he was guilty, he did his time! (Debt to society repaid, he is not an axe-murderer etc).
He has returned within the rules and conditions laid down for him and legitimately won.
If people have a problem with this they need to address it to administrators and seek to have the rules changed. Otherwise accept the result.
I strongly condemn drug use in sport but once the suspension is done it's time to move on.

Well said. Maybe less focus should be on Cathal Lombard and more on getting the rules changed. Motion at your next club AGM onto Congress onto IAAF.

Lombard is being totally made feel like a he has committed a murder, he has some strength of charachter to do what he did - train so hard when in the wilderness, race when all the world seems to be against you. In a weird way I find it very inspiring, I really do (all based on the assumption that he is clean and I believe he is). He must be very passionate about athletics to do this. I find this guy interesting and wonder what his gesture to the heavens meant at the end, higher forces at play maybe! A lot can be learnt from Lombard I think.

Pherekydes

A P wrote: »

...maybe we should request the help of Father Neil Horan - he has a great track record of selectively stopping runners in their tracks! Win win situation!

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

AP has a good point. If Father Horan isn't available though I may dust down my own Leprechaun suit and make the trip

I wouldn't condone this type of cheating.

You know what they say about cheaters...

TheRoadRunner

Slow coach wrote: »

I wouldn't condone this type of cheating.

You know what they say about cheaters...

This isn't cheating ................. its more a form of sabotage, which really shouldn't be condoned either