The Freemasons

Absolam

A money making group.

BB you know well we've discussed Pikes views ad nauseum on this and other threads, but in short Pikes view of Freemasonry was singular and not representative, and Mackeys Encyclopedia is just that; an Encyclopedia which pulls together as much opinion and theory as he could find, it's definitively not definitive; there's certainly far more Christian reference in it than Kabbalist. As I said, Kabbalists (and whatever variations thereon) can find something to identify with in Freemasonry, especially considering some versions of Hermetic Kabbalisms borrowed from Freemasonry in the first place. Christians find a lot to identify with too, as do others. It doesn't make one a part of the other.

If you're only looking at bits of text from occultists who were also Freemasons (like Case) then you'll only get their (occultist) take on Freemasonry.... you can't then pretend that it represents the views or beliefs of non-occultists. I like the idea that people of different faiths are comfortable exploring being a Freemason from the perspective of that faith, but I like even more that Freemasonry forbids them from proselytising that faith within the order... so the occultists get along happily with the born again christians and the muslims.

As we've posted lots of times before; there are no higher degrees in Freemasonry, just appendant ones.

The quotes from Worrel are interesting, but you've omitted his preceding statement
"Many of the rites of Freemasonry can be interpreted in a Kabbalistic fashion". As a student of Kabbalism, that's obviously his opinion; he interprets Freemasonry from his own perspective.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

BB you know well we've discussed Pikes views ad nauseum on this and other threads, but in short Pikes view of Freemasonry was singular and not representative, and Mackeys Encyclopedia is just that; an Encyclopedia which pulls together as much opinion and theory as he could find, it's definitively not definitive; there's certainly far more Christian reference in it than Kabbalist. As I said, Kabbalists (and whatever variations thereon) can find something to identify with in Freemasonry, especially considering some versions of Hermetic Kabbalisms borrowed from Freemasonry in the first place. Christians find a lot to identify with too, as do others. It doesn't make one a part of the other.

If you're only looking at bits of text from occultists who were also Freemasons (like Case) then you'll only get their (occultist) take on Freemasonry.... you can't then pretend that it represents the views or beliefs of non-occultists. I like the idea that people of different faiths are comfortable exploring being a Freemason from the perspective of that faith, but I like even more that Freemasonry forbids them from proselytising that faith within the order... so the occultists get along happily with the born again christians and the muslims.

As we've posted lots of times before; there are no higher degrees in Freemasonry, just appendant ones.

The quotes from Worrel are interesting, but you've omitted his preceding statement
"Many of the rites of Freemasonry can be interpreted in a Kabbalistic fashion". As a student of Kabbalism, that's obviously his opinion; he interprets Freemasonry from his own perspective.

... but you said Freemasonry doesn't have any elements of Kaballah? Evidently masonic leaders think otherwise.

Absolam

A money making group.

I said Freemasonry doesn't have any elements of the Qabalah, other than nods to what might be common to all monotheism. Masonic leaders don't think differently; Masonic Kabbalists find it's compatible with their faith, just as Masonic Christians and Masonic Muslims find it compatible with theirs.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

Muslims

Fatwa regarding Freemasonry

MUSLIM VIEW

[SIZE=+1]College of Islamic Jurisprudence, Makkah, 15th July 1978[/SIZE]

by Farooq

The College of Islamic Jurisprudence considers Freemasonry one of the most dangerously destructive organisations to Islam and to Muslims.
The full text of the Fatwa is as follows:
College of Islamic Jurisprudence, Makkah, 15th July 1978 - concerning: Freemasonry
"The College of Islamic Jurisprudence, in its session convened at Makkah on 15th July 1978, examined the issue of Freemasonry, of those affiliated with it and the legal Islamic judgment on it, after adequate study of this dangerous organisation, and the boy of literature on it, inclusive of the College's own published documents, books, and newspaper and journal articles.

From the totality of writings and texts which the College examined, the following was evinced:

1. Freemasonry is a clandestine organisation, which hides as well as reveals it operations as it sees fit. Its true principles are guarded from all but its most venerated masters, who have, by virtue of their consecration at Freemasonry's highest order degrees, proven worth of this honour.
2. It establishes the relation of its members one to another, in all places of the earth, as is the alleged human brotherhood among all entrants in its organisation, without discrimination as to race, religion, and creed. Such overt misrepresentation of "fraternity" is simple-minded, at best.
3. It attracts persons whose affiliation is practicable for the organisation; its allure is largely of a personally lucrative nature for the individuals sought. The high-minded principles of this recruitment entail; pledged assistance to any Freemasonic brother the world over; firm support of any Freemasonic candidacy to public office; and unconditional loyalty in all Freemasonic endeavors, even in those where the individual must compromise his sense of honour, justice, truth and right. Such lofty appeals often amass considerable financial contributions.
4. Admission to Freemasonry is based on the celebration of the new member's affiliation through symbolic and awe-inspiring ceremonies which serve to frighten the initiate if he is at variance with the instructions; the more threatening orders are issued successively with rank.
5. Gullible members are left free in the exercise of their religious beliefs; if they do not choose to benefit from the directives of guidance and the assignment of task appropriate to their status ( they remain in lower degrees.
   As to the heretics, rank is calibrated in relation to individual experience and mastery, as well as demonstrated readiness to serve Freemasonry's purposes, principles, and plans.
6. It has political aims, and in most political and military upheavals, it has a visible, as well as an invisible, role.
7. Its original organisational roots are Jewish; its secret global high administration, Jewish; and its activity, Zionist.
8. In its secret real aims, it is against all religions: in general it seeks to destroy Islam for its Muslim adherents.
9. It strives to select its membership from among positions of influence - financial, political, social or scientific status ( and to draw to its ranks kings, presidents and ministers, as tools to be manipulated in the forging of its dogma.
10. It has branches which adopt other names to thus misrepresent and divert attention away from activities which encounter resistance to the name of Freemasonry. Among the most conspicuous branches operating under pseudonym are the Lions and Rotary Clubs; many, under multiple guise, similarly contradict the fundamentals of Islam.

It has become evident to the College of Islamic Jurisprudence the strong relation of Freemasonry to world Zionist Jewry. Thus it has been able to dominate many officials in the Arab countries concerning the question of Palestine, and to interfere in the Palestine question on behalf of the Jews and world Zionism.
Therefore, and for the detailed data on Freemasonry's activity, its considerable danger, its wicked dressing and its cunning aims, the College of Islamic Jurisprudence considers Freemasonry one of the most dangerously destructive organisations to Islam and to Muslims
Whoever would associate himself with it while in knowledge of its true nature and aims, would be a non-believer in Islam and uncounted among its adherents."
Source: Fatwa reproduced in "Freemasonry", by Muhammad Safwat al-Saqqa Amini and Sa'di Abu Habib.
http://www.themasonictrowel.com/Articles/Freemasonry/religion_files/muslim_view_of_freemasonry.htm

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

Christians

The action of the Church is summed up in the papal pronouncements against Freemasonry since 1738, the most important of which are:

• Clement XII, Constitution "In Eminenti", 28 April, 1738;
• Benedict XIV, "Providas", 18 May, 1751;
• Pius VII, "Ecclesiam", 13 September, 1821;
• Leo XII, "Quo graviora", 13 March, 1825;
• Pius VIII, Encyclical "Traditi", 21 May, 1829;
• Gregory XVI, "Mirari", 15 August, 1832;
• Pius IX, Encyclical "Qui pluribus", 9 November, 1846;
• Pius IX, Allocution "Quibus quantisque malis", 20 April, 1849;
• Pius IX, Encyclical "Quanta cura", 8 December, 1864;
• Pius IX, Allocution "Multiplices inter", 25 September, 1865;
• Pius IX, Constitution "Apostolicæ Sedis", 12 October, 1869;
• Pius IX, Encyclical "Etsi multa", 21 November, 1873;
• Leo XIII, Encyclical "Humanum genus", 20 April, 1884;
• Leo XIII, "Præclara", 20 June, 1894;
• Leo XIII, "Annum ingressi", 18 March, 1902 (against Italian Freemasonry);
• Leo XIII, Encyclical "Etsí nos", 15 February, 1882;
• Leo XIII, "Ab Apostolici", 15 October, 1890.

These pontifical utterances from first to last are in complete accord, the latter reiterating the earlier with such developments as were called for by the growth of Freemasonry and other secret societies.
Clement XII accurately indicates the principal reasons why Masonic associations from the Catholic, Christian, moral, political, and social points of view, should be condemned. These reasons are:

• The peculiar, "unsectarian" (in truth, anti-Catholic and anti-Christian) naturalistic character of Freemasonry, by which theoretically and practically it undermines the Catholic and Christian faith, first in its members and through them in the rest of society, creating religious indifferentism and contempt for orthodoxy and ecclesiastical authority.
• The inscrutable secrecy and fallacious ever-changing disguise of the Masonic association and of its "work", by which "men of this sort break as thieves into the house and like foxes endeavour to root up the vineyard", "perverting the hearts of the simple", ruining their spiritual and temporal welfare.
• The oaths of secrecy and of fidelity to Masonry and Masonic work, which cannot be justified in their scope, their object, or their form, and cannot, therefore, induce any obligation. The oaths are condemnable, because the scope and object of Masonry are "wicked" and condemnable, and the candidate in most cases is ignorant of the import or extent of the obligation which he takes upon himself. Moreover the ritualistic and doctrinal "secrets" which are the principal object of the obligation, according to the highest Masonic authorities, are either trifles or no longer exist. [212] In either case the oath is a condemnable abuse. Even the Masonic modes of recognition, which are represented as the principal and only essential "secret" of Masonry, are published in many printed books. Hence the real "secrets" of Masonry, if such there be, could only be political or anti-religious conspiracies like the plots of the Grand Lodges in Latin countries. But such secrets, condemned, at least theoretically, by Anglo-American Masons themselves, would render the oath or obligation only the more immoral and therefore null and void. Thus in every respect the Masonic oaths are not only sacrilegious but also an abuse contrary to public order which requires that solemn oaths and obligations as the principal means to maintain veracity and faithfulness in the State and in human society, should not be vilified or caricatured. In Masonry the oath is further degraded by its form which includes the most atrocious penalties, for the "violation of obligations" which do not even exist; a "violation" which, in truth may be and in many cases is an imperative duty.
• The danger which such societies involve for the security and "tranquility of the State" and for "the spiritual health of souls", and consequently their incompatibility with civil and canonical law. For even admitting that some Masonic associations pursued for themselves no purposes contrary to religion and to public order, they would be nevertheless contrary to public order, because by their very existence as secret societies based on the Masonic principles, they encourage and promote the foundation of other really dangerous secret societies and render difficult, if not impossible, efficacious action of the civil and ecclesiastical authorities against them.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09771a.htm#VIII

Absolam

A money making group.

Soooo... Are you saying there are no Christian or Muslim Freemasons, only Kabbalists?

robroy1234

Wow Brown Bomber - the recession must have really hit since you have all that spare time to cut and paste....conspiracy theories are really entertaining...

robroy1234

Stuar - that is not a masonic handshake....every mason on this site will know that it just a handshake and not a masonic handshake...

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

Soooo... Are you saying there are no Christian or Muslim Freemasons, only Kabbalists?

No, but it should be quite clear that any masons who claim to be Catholics for example are complete hypocrites.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Wow Brown Bomber - the recession must have really hit since you have all that spare time to cut and paste....conspiracy theories are really entertaining...

If you are implying that I am unemployed you couldn't be more wrong. I've never been out of work in my life as it happens. Ad-Homs aside was that supposed to be some kind of rebuttal?

I mean it should be quite clear that the teachings of Kaballah are rather important to the teachings of freemasonry. It is documented by reputable freemasons themselves. Manly P Hall would be another 33 degree mason who has attested to this that I haven't mentioned.

Denying the obvious makes masons come across as less than sincere regarding masonry.

stuar

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Stuar - that is not a masonic handshake....every mason on this site will know that it just a handshake and not a masonic handshake...

Looks like a cover grip.

Ok I'll just believe every mason on this site.

Ohh and clearly a true Palestinian.
Abbas to Obama: I'm against lifting the Gaza naval blockade

The Palestinian president reportedly told Obama that lifting the naval blockade of Gaza would bolster Hamas, a move that shouldn't be done at this stage.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/abbas-to-obama-i-m-against-lifting-the-gaza-naval-blockade-1.295771

robroy1234

Brown Bomber - if you want to talk about sincerity, you are the most insincere person on this site and constantly trolling and trying provoke inane arguments. You repeatedly state with authority of things that we are supposed to be doing and refuse to accept it when we say that we don't do anything illegal or immoral - with your extreme moral outrage and almost nazi-like zealousness against us, no doubt that you are extremely suspect in all matters. As in MacBeth - "I do believe the lady protesteth too much."

Stuar - the handshakes shown in the drawings are masonic handshakes but without the correct context are still meaningless and more so there is a part missing from each drawing which actually invalidates them as masonic, so if you think that you could walk up to a known mason and give him one of these handshakes - he will know that you are a fraud immediately.The photos with various men showing handshakes are not masonic handshakes - and the reason that this is so is very much known to every mason on this site.

robroy1234

Brown Bomber - I said nothing about your state of employment, but your sincerity towards "cut and paste" and then passing such information as if you were the sole authority of such.

The real concern for me though is that you believe that you have the right to dictate to other people what they can and cannot do in their own free, private time. We have every right to assemble, meet, and discuss matters that pertain to our particular interests, and that we do not break the law nor permit any such actions thereof. In the past countries that have outlawed freemasonry have been Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Franco Spain. So it is pretty obvious from your particular rants where your particular idealogy stems from.

Absolam

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

No, but it should be quite clear that any masons who claim to be Catholics for example are complete hypocrites.

Well, hypocrites to a degree I suppose, if you're inclined to that way of thinking, insomuch as any Catholic who eats pork, doesn't take an eye for an eye whilst turning the other cheek, uses contraception or has sex before marriage is a hypocrite. That's really a matter for the Christianity forum; how any Roman Catholic chooses to interpret their faith is their business, not Freemasonrys.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I mean it should be quite clear that the teachings of Kaballah are rather important to the teachings of freemasonry. It is documented by reputable freemasons themselves. Manly P Hall would be another 33 degree mason who has attested to this that I haven't mentioned. Denying the obvious makes masons come across as less than sincere regarding masonry.

I'm surprised (but pleased) you actually think there are such things as 'reputable freemasons'. But Manly P Hall was also an occultist (before he was ever a Freemason). So he obviously came to Freemasonry with a particular perspective; just as the Christians who find the teachings of Christianity important to the teachings of freemasonry (to use your words) come with a particular perspective. I would be more impressed if you could find an article where the Grand Lodge of Ireland (or England, or Scotland) says that Kaballah is significant in Freemasonry, rather than where individual occultists find a 'connection' in their Masonic activities.

stuar wrote: »

Ohh and clearly a true Palestinian.
Abbas to Obama: I'm against lifting the Gaza naval blockade
The Palestinian president reportedly told Obama that lifting the naval blockade of Gaza would bolster Hamas, a move that shouldn't be done at this stage

Leaving aside the handshake obsession Stuar, I have to ask; what does your Obama bit have to do with anything else you posted? Very puzzling!

stuar

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

Leaving aside the handshake obsession Stuar, I have to ask; what does your Obama bit have to do with anything else you posted? Very puzzling!

Ohh just that Abbas is not really who he pretends to be and doesn't really give a sh1t about his own people being starved and blown into the stone age, he'd rather do funny hand handshakes with the rest of his cabal, you know the cabal I'm referring to I'm sure.

Any word on that LOST WORD boy's?, ohh yea forgot you can't talk about it with the likes of me.

robroy1234

Stuar - I can affirm to you that Abbas' handshake is no way masonic. Every mason when being initiated into the first degree is made aware of why. So no matter how much crazy and weird the conspiracy theory is - it doesn't make it so.

As for the Word - I wouldn't even say good morning to you let alone say anything else to you. What else do you want to know? Our bank account details or my son's name and school address? - there are somethings that are private, personal and secret - and for good reason.

Absolam

A money making group.

stuar wrote: »

Ohh just that Abbas is not really who he pretends to be and doesn't really give a sh1t about his own people being starved and blown into the stone age, he'd rather do funny hand handshakes with the rest of his cabal, you know the cabal I'm referring to I'm sure.

I don't know what cabal you're referring to but I'm going to take a leap here and ask; are you saying you believe Mahmoud Abbas and Barack Obama are Freemasons, and that you have evidence to support that belief? Further, are you saying you have evidence that this is influencing Abbas' leadership of Palestine?

robroy1234

Absolam - the beauty of conspiracy theory is that it requires no proof, no evidence just pure speculation and paranoia. The tenuous link between certain people and events are usually filled with such rubbish and that some people just believe it without questioning, and then become angry and spiteful against those who do not adhere to their particular mania.

There are matters concerning Abbas and Obama etc., but that belongs in another forum relating to politics and has no bearing on freemasonry at all.

Kernel

A satanic cult.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Absolam - the beauty of conspiracy theory is that it requires no proof, no evidence just pure speculation and paranoia. The tenuous link between certain people and events are usually filled with such rubbish and that some people just believe it without questioning, and then become angry and spiteful against those who do not adhere to their particular mania.

There are matters concerning Abbas and Obama etc., but that belongs in another forum relating to politics and has no bearing on freemasonry at all.

You seem to be more angry and spiteful against those who do not adhere to your particular mania, to be honest. Rob Roy, doth protest too much, methinks. (Hamlet, not the Scottish Play - or the Scottish Rite?).

robroy1234

Kernel - I am never angry, just get tired of repeatedly been referred to something that we are not, and regardless of how many times we state quite categorically that these things we do not do. I don't mind if people believe in whatever conspiracy theory they want to believe in, but they do step over the line when pushing their beliefs on other people whom do not share their paranoia. I am not going to change my affliation because someone has a crackpot conspiracy theory....

Kernel

A satanic cult.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Kernel - I am never angry, just get tired of repeatedly been referred to something that we are not, and regardless of how many times we state quite categorically that these things we do not do. I don't mind if people believe in whatever conspiracy theory they want to believe in, but they do step over the line when pushing their beliefs on other people whom do not share their paranoia. I am not going to change my affliation because someone has a crackpot conspiracy theory....

Yes, but with all due respect then maybe you are in the wrong forum.

Freemasonry will always be shrouded by conspiracy, due to it's very nature, and you will likely have a frustrating time trying to persuade people otherwise on a forum dedicate to conspiracy theories.

As someone interested in history, I do believe that freemasonry was a hidden hand behind many world events. I do not think that in the past such a hidden hand has been particularly nefarious (founding of America, French Revolution etc.). But you need to be wary with the obfuscation side of debating with others, in my opinion. I actually didn't have a problem with freemasonry, until we started to debate the 'secret society' aspect earlier in the thread. Since then I am more dubious.

robroy1234

Kernel - I don't mind a bit of banter and a dig now and then, but when its get to the point of Monty Pythonesque "She's a witch..." line over and over again from the same people - they get a bit over-bearing. In terms of conspiracy, everyone loves a conspiracy even myself.

Absolam

A money making group.

I have to agree, a balanced discussion is not likely in the CT forum.... Humanities might be more the place maybe!

Freemasonry is purposely shrouded in mystery, and that gives fertile ground for conspiracy theories. It's fun to knock back the more outrageous allegations, it's fun to debate what people think is obvious but is miles from the truth. It's fun to be able to actually explain some things and maybe convince a few people that Freemasonry is worth a little more thought and maybe a visit. But I have to admit, it's also fun to sometimes say "We're not telling you, because we're Freemasons!".

I was impressed at how many Freemasons were involved in major world events; like the French and American revolutions. And maybe a little disappointed to discover that Freemasonry wasn't the 'hidden hand' behind those events that Kernel would like to think, because that would be kind of cool. But whilst Freemasons may have been a big part of changing the world, Freemasonry hasn't; Freemasonry avoids politics and religion, and focuses on people. If making those men better men caused them to change the world for the better then that is the extent of Freemasonrys 'hidden hand' in world affairs. And I can't see how that's a bad thing.

robroy1234

I was half-way through with what I was typing and my wife came into the room and kicked me off the computer....I apreciate that many people believe in conspiracies, some do have some truth to them and others are just bonkers. There is however a tendency to think that something is going on when a group of people meet up.

I think that it is best that we keep this forum light hearted and relaxed, and leave any animosity and anger off it.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Brown Bomber - I said nothing about your state of employment,

The implication is clear, you said:

the recession must have really hit since you have all that spare time to cut and paste

The implication is clear. I won't lose any sleep over though, a mason making elitist comments doesn't surprise me in the least.

robroy1234 wrote: »

The real concern for me though is that you believe that you have the right to dictate to other people what they can and cannot do in their own free, private time.

Fret not; I don't believe I have such a right.

robroy1234 wrote: »

We have every right to assemble, meet, and discuss matters that pertain to our particular interests, and that we do not break the law nor permit any such actions thereof.

Completely agree.

robroy1234 wrote: »

In the past countries that have outlawed freemasonry have been Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Franco Spain. So it is pretty obvious from your particular rants where your particular idealogy stems from.

Well this is only a half-truth isn't it? Masonry has been outlawed in many, many states. Most of the Islamic world in fact and all of the Soviet states.

So your insinuation that I am a Fascist is empty, Unless I am a Communist-Nazi-Muslim????

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Kernel wrote: »

I actually didn't have a problem with freemasonry, until we started to debate the 'secret society' aspect earlier in the thread. Since then I am more dubious.

I actually agree with this. Conspiracy theories aside I actually view masonry as a fairly benign, if elitist secret society. However, masons seem to be unwillingly to be unmovable on anything beyond the whiter-than-white, PR friendly face of masonry.

Absolam

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I actually agree with this. Conspiracy theories aside I actually view masonry as a fairly benign, if elitist secret society. However, masons seem to be unwillingly to be unmovable on anything beyond the whiter-than-white, PR friendly face of masonry.

Oh I don't think that's terribly fair. We've agreed that there are people who are or were Masons who were bad people, we've agreed that Freemasonry as an organisation isn't perfect and doesn't suit everyone. I've never claimed we're whiter than white, only that we're not the black that we're sometimes painted. We're only really immovable on the stuff that we won't tell you about

robroy1234

Brown Bomber - you have spent inordinate amount of time and energy, cutting and pasting material onto the forum, and are overly concerned with what other people do in their own free, private time. The only people that have pursued an agenda to prohibit freemasonry are religious and political extremists - people who wish to control and dictate to other people the management of their lives. In relation to Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Franco Spain, freemasons during those dark, evil times ended up in concentration camps. Countries under military Junta such as Pinochet's Chile outlawed freemasonry and of course in extreme islamic countries where they have no human rights and women are regarded as second class or non-citizens.

Freemasonry in the UK and the US, peaked in membership after the first and then the second world war, this was because those men returning from the horrors of war sought to maintain the bond of friendship and comradery that was developed.

In regards to the posting of information such as the handshakes, words, signs etc., means very little in the mystery of freemasonry. The most important aspect of freemasonry is the bond of friendship and unity of brothers within the brotherhood, this means that religion, politics and outside interests have no place in the lodge.

As for being Elitist, there is no indication of elitism here, I am heavily involved in the sport of athletics and that is highly elitist...more so that freemasonry.

weisses

A group to make contacts.

As long as they don't tell us what their involvement is in the building of Denver International Airport i remain skeptical

robroy1234

I can assure you that no one in Irish Freemasonry has anything to do with the airport in Denver, firstly as we are of a different constitution, secondly we have specific rules and regulations that prohibit use of particular symbols and emblems of freemasonry in public/private business - such as using the square and compass on an official letter-headed business letter that has nothing to do with freemasonry. In Ireland as in the UK the only buildings that have any masonic symbols on it are masonic buildings and not on public buildings at all. There is however many buildings, structures and headstones etc., that have certain symbols on them - some are masonic, some are from other organisations and may or may not be related to freemasonry, these include Lynchs window in Galway etc., As for secret meanings behind them there are all sorts of meaning that can be derived, one most hotly debated symbol is the skull and crossbones - but that debate would entirely take over the whole forum so I suggest a different forum to discuss that one.

In relation to Denver Airport - never been there, so cannot provide an opinion on such a matter.

weisses

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

In relation to Denver Airport - never been there, so cannot provide an opinion on such a matter.

http://vigilantcitizen.com/sinistersites/sinister-sites-the-denver-international-airport/

One of the many links about Denver Airport

robroy1234

Ok. I went to college in California and Florida, but never been to Colorado - and that was years before becoming a mason. I am aware of the "conspiracy theory" of the airport in Denver but glad that you know me better than myself....

Absolam

A money making group.

Looks brilliant... really interesting place! Some really bizarre art etc. And some bizarre interpretations of the art. The Masonic capstone is also quite nice I think... I for one would like to see more public displays of Masonic support for the community in Europe, it seems to always be America or Australia etc where Masons happily erect dedication stones and suchlike.

Kernel

A satanic cult.

Absolam wrote: »

Looks brilliant... really interesting place! Some really bizarre art etc. And some bizarre interpretations of the art. The Masonic capstone is also quite nice I think... I for one would like to see more public displays of Masonic support for the community in Europe, it seems to always be America or Australia etc where Masons happily erect dedication stones and suchlike.

What about the Spire? Ok, maybe that's a reach, but Wellington monument?

weisses

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Ok. I went to college in California and Florida, but never been to Colorado - and that was years before becoming a mason. I am aware of the "conspiracy theory" of the airport in Denver but glad that you know me better than myself....

You said you could not form a opinion on the matter ... Why not ??

And why is this Involvement of the Masons in Denver Airport immediately labelled as a CT

And i don't know you better then yourself ... there are probably some in your constitution who believe they are ..But don't assume I do

I just have an interest in it that's all

Absolam

A money making group.

Kernel wrote: »

What about the Spire? Ok, maybe that's a reach, but Wellington monument?

Pretty sure there's nothing Masonic in the Spire, or the Wellington Testimonial, it's just that some people get overfevered by obelisks and such like...
However the Customs House does have some Masonic references on it, and was designed by an architect who was a Freemason. But I had in mind more overt dedications; Masonry in Ireland tends to be very discreet but in 'the New World' is much more brash about pointing out the good works it does.

weisses wrote: »

And why is this Involvement of the Masons in Denver Airport immediately labelled as a CT

Masonic involvemnet in the airport isn't a CT; there's a bloody big rock there showing that Masons were involved in its' construction. But the CT bit comes in when people say 'Ah, the Masons were involved, and it's a swastika, and the art is dodgy, and no one can account for all the tunnels.... the illuminati are coming to get us!'

weisses

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

Masonic involvemnet in the airport isn't a CT; there's a bloody big rock there showing that Masons were involved in its' construction. But the CT bit comes in when people say 'Ah, the Masons were involved, and it's a swastika, and the art is dodgy, and no one can account for all the tunnels.... the illuminati are coming to get us!'

So what part of the planning, construction, working, of this airport are the masons involved in ... and why getting involved in the first place ?

Is there a "non" ct link on the webbie that explains that?

Absolam

A money making group.

weisses wrote: »

So what part of the planning, construction, working, of this airport are the masons involved in ... and why getting involved in the first place ?

Is there a "non" ct link on the webbie that explains that?

Well, just a guess here, but I suspect that hundreds of local lodges would have had members who were labourers/electricians/planners/caterers on a project this big. If the lodges had contributed something to the time capsule, or funding for amenities, that might be why they were invited to participate in laying the capstone? My guess is that Denver Freemasons are particularly active in their communities and you'll probably see a lot of dedication plaques and suchlike about.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Brown Bomber - you have spent inordinate amount of time and energy, cutting and pasting material onto the forum, and are overly concerned with what other people do in their own free, private time.

The irony is strong here.

robroy1234 wrote: »

The only people that have pursued an agenda to prohibit freemasonry are religious and political extremists - people who wish to control and dictate to other people the management of their lives. In relation to Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Franco Spain, freemasons during those dark, evil times ended up in concentration camps. Countries under military Junta such as Pinochet's Chile outlawed freemasonry and of course in extreme islamic countries where they have no human rights and women are regarded as second class or non-citizens. .

This is again more half-truths. Many, many European states such as Switzerland and France have banned masonry. It is not just extremist Islamic states that have banned masonry but most of the Islamic world.

robroy1234 wrote: »

As for being Elitist, there is no indication of elitism here, I am heavily involved in the sport of athletics and that is highly elitist...more so that freemasonry.

Your joking right...? So anyone can become a mason?

Absolam

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

This is again more half-truths. Many, many European states such as Switzerland and France have banned masonry. It is not just extremist Islamic states that have banned masonry but most of the Islamic world.
Your joking right...? So anyone can become a mason?

The elitism bit was something that was puzzling me.... who do you think can't become a Mason? I get you might think any organisation which selects its' own members is effectively elitist, but Masonry has members from all walks of life; it's one of the big appeals of the Order for me as I meet people I'd never meet otherwise.

And to clarify; Masonry isn't banned in Switzerland or France. Generally Freemasonry tends to be banned in countries which are suffering under totalitarian regimes, along with other organisations that have effective networks (like the Boy Scouts...). And as freedom comes about, Freemasonry generally gets unbanned. In fact, you could probably use the presence of Masonic Lodges in countries as an indicator of the degree of civil liberties afforded to citizens....

hiram

A money making group.

This attachment should put a smile on some peoples faces, and take it from the faces of others!!:D

All available publicly, before someone has a bitch fit...

Absolam

A money making group.

BB will be upset.... All those pictures and not a single hand inside a jacket

robroy1234

Brown Bomber - believe me, athletics is far more elitist than freemasonry...then again I have been an athlete for 25 years and been on the international circuit for a long time.

As for being banned in Islamic countries - that is only in totalitarian extremist countries that actually prevents citizens from having any form of freedom of expression and human rights.

Kernel

A satanic cult.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Brown Bomber - believe me, athletics is far more elitist than freemasonry...then again I have been an athlete for 25 years and been on the international circuit for a long time.

At the risk of dragging off topic, if the mods will indulge me for simply one reply from robroy... In what way is athletics more elitist? Do you mean from the GAA or FAI (organisational) side of things? I've noticed it with GAA actually. I'm interested.

robroy1234

Kernel - athletics I mean running and not GAA or FAI. I have been competing in athletics for now 24 years and had my education in the US paid for by athletic/academic scholarship, with all the other benefits included. Athletics at the highest level is elitist as compared to freemasonry where there is no elitism but a basic criteria. As a man the criteria is as follows: 1. be off full masonic age - 21. 2. be in good standing with your neighbours, i.e. no criminal record, and 3. believe in the supreme being.

getz

The puppet masters.

Absolam wrote: »

The elitism bit was something that was puzzling me.... who do you think can't become a Mason? I get you might think any organisation which selects its' own members is effectively elitist, but Masonry has members from all walks of life; it's one of the big appeals of the Order for me as I meet people I'd never meet otherwise.

And to clarify; Masonry isn't banned in Switzerland or France. Generally Freemasonry tends to be banned in countries which are suffering under totalitarian regimes, along with other organisations that have effective networks (like the Boy Scouts...). And as freedom comes about, Freemasonry generally gets unbanned. In fact, you could probably use the presence of Masonic Lodges in countries as an indicator of the degree of civil liberties afforded to citizens....

nice words civil liberties,untill you add shoot to kill policy in northern ireland,the masonic connection and the following coverups , lost files,blocking of a new inquiry by that masonic temple the house of lords,

Sashiee

The puppets

is freemasons the one that lady gaga worships all the time then??

or is that just the usual illuminati, baphomet and satan the little troublemaker....

getz

The puppet masters.

Sashiee wrote: »

is freemasons the one that lady gaga worships all the time then??

or is that just the usual illuminati, baphomet and satan the little troublemaker....

no but it has brought down goverments,

Sashiee

The puppets

getz wrote: »

no but it has brought down goverments,

is that true? a member of my family was invited to the freemasons a couple of months ago..good idea yay or nay??

getz

The puppet masters.

Sashiee wrote: »

is that true? a member of my family was invited to the freemasons a couple of months ago..good idea yay or nay??

i have family in the masons a brother and a uncle,both use it to better themselves using contacts ect,there is nothing wrong in the idea of masonary i does do a lot of good work in the field,but its in goverment police and law that it falls short its the alleged use of influence within and between organizations[for example,police and local goverment]to further each others interests,l its OK for a member of the family join as long as he is not one of the above,it only goes wrong in the like of the p2 masonic lodge in italy in 1981 that took down a goverment,