The Freemasons

Emme

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Of course they don't Emme, it's a fraternity. Same way I can't join the Irish Countrywomen's Association, or the local women's golf team.

OK, off to join the Irish Countrywomen's Association - they have nicer aprons than the Freemasons anyway!

studiorat

Group to make contacts.
with the devil :eek:

robroy1234

Studiorat - contact with the devil - Louis Walsh is not a member....

saywhatyousee

A group to make contacts.

JohnMarston wrote: »

Out of sight, out of mind. It doesn't affect me for worse or better, at least not in any way im aware of. So i vote a great bunch of lads

I think the bold part is people's concerns.

nullzero

Just as a quick note to those posters who claim to be members (I'm assuming you are really freemasons, but on the net people can say anything to make a point)...
Nobody in their right mind believes that all levels of Freemasonry is "satanic".
Freemasonry is a provably compartmentalised organisation, something which means higher level initiates will know more than those below them, which would leave room for the possibility of immoral behaviour in the higher ranks.

Instead of saying Freemasonry is Satanic, it might be mroe accurate to say that; "Freemasonry is a compartmentalised organisation, about which there have been repeated claims of highly immoral behaviour at it's highest levels rather that at the lower levels."

If the Freemasons present wouldn't mind it would be interesting to know what level you are at in the organisation.
I would be surprised if anyone here was a provably high ranking Mason, the type of Masons that are of interest to the CT community. I don't think even the most ardent CTer would accuse the lower level Masons of being in anything other than benign in their intentions or actions.

robroy1234

Well, how many times have people such as yourself has referred to me as a lower level, ignorant and that the higher levels do all sorts of things that are beyond us. I suppose that a club GAA player would be considered the same to an Intercounty player.
There isn't a difference between any of the additional areas of masonry, and there is nothing higher in terms of degree for a mason than a third degree master mason. The Royal Arch, Knight Mason, Prince Mason, Great Priory and 33 supreme council are the expansion of certain areas in the craft.

Finnbar01

Question to freemasons,

1. Isn't free masonry incompatible with Christianity?
2. When you pass away will you have a freemason type funeral? (Probably not allowed in a christian church)
3. How do you join?

robroy1234

not at incompatiable. I am not sure about the waltzing part - personally I dance like a frog in a blender or a caveman stomping on mice.

nullzero

robroy1234 wrote: »

Well, how many times have people such as yourself has referred to me as a lower level, ignorant and that the higher levels do all sorts of things that are beyond us. I suppose that a club GAA player would be considered the same to an Intercounty player.
There isn't a difference between any of the additional areas of masonry, and there is nothing higher in terms of degree for a mason than a third degree master mason. The Royal Arch, Knight Mason, Prince Mason, Great Priory and 33 supreme council are the expansion of certain areas in the craft.

First off, I never said you were ignorant in any way.
Freemasonry is a large organisation, there are different branches or rites if you will. I'm sure you're a lovely guy and you do good things in the Freemasons, I said there is a possibility that a compartmentalised organisation can have things going on at the top that the majority of members dont know about.
If you're telling me that nothing bad ever happens in any Masonic order, then I'll respect you opinion but continue to have my own.

Absolam

A money making group.

nullzero wrote: »

Nobody in their right mind believes that all levels of Freemasonry is "satanic".
Freemasonry is a provably compartmentalised organisation, something which means higher level initiates will know more than those below them, which would leave room for the possibility of immoral behaviour in the higher ranks.

As Robroy has pointed out, there aren't 'higher level initiates' in Freemasonry; that's very much an outside perception. There are three 'levels', and many appendant degrees; a 33rd degree Mason is no higher than a 3rd degree Mason. The organisation isn't compartmentalised, there are appendant bodies which work certain degrees; these are not progressive higher ranks, at the top of the Order there is the Grand Master who need only be a Master (3rd degree) Mason, yet he 'outranks' 33rd degree (or whatever) Masons.

nullzero wrote: »

Instead of saying Freemasonry is Satanic, it might be mroe accurate to say that; "Freemasonry is a compartmentalised organisation, about which there have been repeated claims of highly immoral behaviour at it's highest levels rather that at the lower levels."

It would be more accurate to say "Freemasonry is a not a compartmentalised organisation, but contains discrete bodies, much as the GAA emcompasses football, hurling, and camogie. Claims of immoral behaviour have been levelled at members in all areas of the order, just as in most other organisations, but a primary tenet of the organisation itself is the inculcation of proper moral behaviour in its' members."

nullzero wrote: »

If the Freemasons present wouldn't mind it would be interesting to know what level you are at in the organisation.
I would be surprised if anyone here was a provably high ranking Mason, the type of Masons that are of interest to the CT community. I don't think even the most ardent CTer would accuse the lower level Masons of being in anything other than benign in their intentions or actions.

I myself am a Master Mason, and have taken a large number of appendant degrees. So I suppose I'd be pretty close to what CTers think of as a high ranking Mason.

Finnbar01 wrote: »

Question to freemasons,
1. Isn't free masonry incompatible with Christianity?
2. When you pass away will you have a freemason type funeral? (Probably not allowed in a christian church)
3. How do you join?

1) The Roman Catholic Church says that Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity; obviously Christian Freemasons disagree.
2) Personally I like the idea of a Masonic funeral, but the Catholic Church does not permit them, nor do some of the Protestant Churches. That said, they're not very different from ordinary funerals for Christians... I've no idea about other religions.
3) Ask... or be asked. You could simply go down to your local Masonic Hall and express your interest, or attend a Masonic charity event and talk to some of the members, or maybe you have a friend or relative who's a member and would like you to join.

studiorat

Hi Absolam,
So to gain these degrees what do you need to do?

I presume from your name there is some study of hebrew folklore involved. Is this the much guarded "knowledge" we hear so much about?

robroy1234

I concur fully with Absolam. There is nothing higher than a 3rd degree master mason, and it is through choice to go on to the additional levels.

As for enquiring about entry, you can approach a known member or enquire via the grand lodge website or the provincial lodge website. Some lodges may have their own websites up and running.

robroy1234

There are three criteria that need to be met:

1. Be a man, freeborn and of full masonic age (21 years +)
2. Be of good standing in your neighbourhood, with no criminal record and of no ill-repute
3. Believe in the Supreme Being (Whether that be God, Jehovah, Allah, Hindu..whatever your deity is)

There is no learning of hebrew or any other such language.

Absolam

A money making group.

studiorat wrote: »

Hi Absolam,
So to gain these degrees what do you need to do?

I presume from your name there is some study of hebrew folklore involved. Is this the much guarded "knowledge" we hear so much about?

You need to ask to join / be asked to join the appendant bodies that give those degrees. Some Masons never do, some Masons join some, some join them all. It's more a matter of free time and interest than any other factor. No study of hebrew folklore is involved, or any other folklore come to that. And if there was much guarded knowledge, surely you'd never hear much about it

Owen

I'm a past master, and can concur with the other masons above. This bullsh1t about there being secrets not revealed to the 'lower echelons' is just that.

Wolfe Tone

A money making group.

Whats a freemason type funeral?

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

There are three criteria that need to be met:

1. Be a man.

Wimmin! On yer bike!

robroy1234 wrote: »

freeborn

You don't accept people who were born into slavery? A little elitist no?

Oh and you forget the disabled!

"The men made Masons must be freeborn (or no bondmen), of mature age and of good report, hale and sound, not deformed or dismembered at the time of their making".

Great bunch o' lads

Owen

Ah, hilarious. Those days are long gone. That dates back to a time when disfigurments were perceived to be as a result of sins by the general populace. All Lodges have disabled members at this stage. We've guys missing fingers, one guy half deaf. Some other lodges have wheelchair bound brethren.

As for your comment about being men only, did you even bother to read the posts above yours before you brainfarted in here?

Owen

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Whats a freemason type funeral?

There's no such thing. Masons will attend the funeral of a deceased brother like any mourners, but they'll ask permission of the widow/next of kin for one Brother to drop a sprig of accacia in the open grave on behalf of all members. If the family have an issue for any reason, it's not done.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

We've guys missing fingers

Yeah course you do...:pac:

I'm sure Brother 7-fingers is great at the dodgy handshakes.

Edit - while I think of it you forget about the mentally ill becoming masons because they wouldn't be able to keep your dodgy secrets and the blind because well they can't see your symbols.

Yitzhak Rabin

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Yeah course you do...:pac:

I'm sure Brother 7-fingers is great at the dodgy handshakes.

Edit - while I think of it you forget about the mentally ill becoming masons because they wouldn't be able to keep your dodgy secrets and the blind because well they can't see your symbols.

You're seriously struggling if thats the best mudslinging you can do :rolleyes:

If disabled men were actually barred from joining freemasonry then half of the members of my lodge would be on their tod. The average age profile of a mason, I would guess, is in his 60s. Almost all of them have an ailment of some kind. If you see a bunch of old dudes with walking sticks dressed up in suits at night its a safe enough bet its the freemasons.

As for having to be freeborn, thats because slaves can't enter into a solemn agreement, given that they are under someone elses ownership. Joining the freemasons has to be a personal choice, and can't be made under duress, hence you must be freeborn. Pretty irrelavent today, at least in the western world.

Mentally ill? I'm sure there are plenty of agreements they can't enter into. Its got to do with consent BB.

Wolfe Tone

A money making group.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

There's no such thing. Masons will attend the funeral of a deceased brother like any mourners, but they'll ask permission of the widow/next of kin for one Brother to drop a sprig of accacia in the open grave on behalf of all members. If the family have an issue for any reason, it's not done.

Whats the significance of that if you don't mind me asking?

I would google but I don't know if what I would get would be accurate seen as there are so many people online who have mad theories about freemasons

If you know a decent site let us know

Owen

According to legend, it's how the grave of Hiram Abiff was marked.

Emme

PaintDoctor wrote: »

According to legend, it's how the grave of Hiram Abiff was marked.

Isn't Acacia indigenous to the Middle East? If so that would indicate that Freemasonry could have originated there.

squod

A group to make contacts.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

According to legend, it's how the grave of Hiram Abiff was marked.

Doesn't that put a direct link to modern masonry and the story of Solomon?

Owen

Did you miss the word 'legend'? It's a nice story we tell to teach morals, but we've no clue if there's any truth behind it, no more so than Midas turned everything he touched to Gold. The best guess Masonic historians have is that it did evolve out of the medieval stone masons guilds - but no one's certain.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

squod wrote: »

Doesn't that put a direct link to modern masonry and the story of Solomon?

Squod if your interested this is good reading. It was intended for internal use within the lodges and was written by Master Mason Benjamin Franklin. I've come to the conclusion that their in no point in dealing with a mason on freemasonry because their is no honesty on their part. The final straw was when Absolam said that Pike is a bit-part player within masonry.

The Constitutions of the Free-Masons
(1734).

This is an online electronic edition of the the first Masonic book
printed in America, which was produced in Philadelphia by Benjamin
Franklin in 1734, and was a reprint of a work by James Anderson (who
is identified as the author in an appendix) printed in London in 1723.

This is the seminal work of American Masonry, edited and published
by one of the founding fathers, and of great importance to the
development of colonial society and the formation of the Republic.

The work contains a 40-page history of Masonry: from Adam to
the reign of King George I, including, among others, Noah, Abraham,
Moses, Solomon, Hiram Abif, Nebuchadnezzar, Augustus Caesar,
Vitruvius, King Athelstan the Saxon, Inigo Jones, and James I
of England.

There are extended descriptions of the Seven Wonders
of the World,

1) the Great Pyramid,
2) Solomon’s Temple,
3) the City and Hanging-Gardens of Babylon,
4) the Mausoleum or Tomb of Mausolus, King of Caria,
5) the Lighthouse of Pharos at Alexandria,
6) Phidias’s statue of Jupiter Olympius in Achaia, and
7) the Colossus at Rhodes
(although some maintain the 5th is the Obelisk of Semiramis).

It is a celebration of the science of Geometry and the Royal Art
of Architecture, as practiced from ancient times until the then-current
revival of the Roman or Augustan Style. “The Charges of a Free-
Mason” and the “General Regulations” concern rules of conduct for
individuals and of governance for Lodges and their officers. The work
also includes five songs to be sung at meetings, one of which—“A New
Song”—appears in print for the first time and may have been composed
by Franklin.

The document suggests that Masonry, in its modern Anglo-American
form, was rooted in Old Testament exegesis (“So that the Israelites,
at their leaving Egypt, were a whole Kingdom of Masons, …
under the Conduct of their GRAND MASTER MOSES”) and
in contemporary Protestant ideals of morality, merit, and political

Document: http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1028&context=libraryscience

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

I concur fully with Absolam. There is nothing higher than a 3rd degree master mason, and it is through choice to go on to the additional levels.

You can be be blackballed and refused the opportunity to attain the higher levels can you not?

If so, how is this "through choice"?

Again if so, why would you misrepresent the truth?

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

yekahS wrote: »

You're seriously struggling if thats the best mudslinging you can do :rolleyes:

If disabled men were actually barred from joining freemasonry then half of the members of my lodge would be on their tod. The average age profile of a mason, I would guess, is in his 60s. Almost all of them have an ailment of some kind. If you see a bunch of old dudes with walking sticks dressed up in suits at night its a safe enough bet its the freemasons.

The point is that it excludes and discriminates against people BORN with deformities or disabilities not old todgers who develop arthrithis.

yekahS wrote: »

As for having to be freeborn, thats because slaves can't enter into a solemn agreement, given that they are under someone elses ownership. Joining the freemasons has to be a personal choice, and can't be made under duress, hence you must be freeborn. Pretty irrelavent today, at least in the western world.

Again it the reference is to "FREEBORN". Liberated slaves of free will and rights are ineligible due to the conditions of their BIRTH.

yekahS wrote: »

Mentally ill? I'm sure there are plenty of agreements they can't enter into. Its got to do with consent BB.

Your confusing someone legally insane/incompotent with someone with a mental illness. Not the same at all but both discriminated against by the masons.


This is from The Principles of Masonic Law by Albert G. Mackey.

The physical qualifications of a candidate contribute to the utility of the Order, because he who is deficient in any of his limbs or members, and who is not in the possession of all his natural senses and endowments, is unable to perform, with pleasure to himself or credit to the fraternity, those peculiar labors in which all should take an equal part. He thus becomes a drone in the hive, and so far impairs the usefulness of the lodge, as "a place where Freemasons assemble to work, and to instruct and improve themselves in the mysteries of their ancient science."

The intellectual qualifications refer to the security of the Order; because they require that its mysteries shall be confided only to those whose mental developments are such as to enable them properly to appreciate, and faithfully to preserve from imposition, the secrets thus entrusted to them. It is evident, for instance, that an idiot could neither understand the hidden doctrines that might be communicated to him, nor could he so secure such portions as he might remember, in the "depositary of his heart," as to prevent the designing knave from worming them out of him; for, as the wise Solomon has said, "a fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul."

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/Mackey_law_fr.html

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

"hidden doctrines"

That's why it's a waste of time talking to masons about masonry. They are oath/allegiance bound to the secrets of the order.

You'll learn far more by watching this film http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3923632392892449905&q=history+of+freemasonry&total=85&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0#

Owen

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Squod if your interested this is good reading. It was intended for internal use within the lodges and was written by Master Mason Benjamin Franklin. I've come to the conclusion that their in no point in dealing with a mason on freemasonry because their is no honesty on their part. The final straw was when Absolam said that Pike is a bit-part player within masonry

ROFL. Oh the stupidity and blindness in what you wrote BB. First of all, American Masonry is it's own entity, and while it's recognised by the Grand Lodge of Ireland and England, they do things very differently as regards their interpretation of ritual and the historical origins of Masonry. As discussed here ad nauseum before, doubtless you saw the last time we discussed Masonry, there's even differences in Ireland between rituals.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You can be be blackballed and refused the opportunity to attain the higher levels can you not?

No. No you can't. Stop making things up.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

The point is that it excludes and discriminates against people BORN with deformities or disabilities not old todgers who develop arthrithis. Again it the reference is to "FREEBORN".

Again, you're someone with no inside knowledge of the craft, you see a word, put two and two together and get twenty two. We use the worn Freeborn because of it's historical references. Just like we use in our ritual the ancient but symbolic death penalties if someone were to let our secrets out. BUT, we stress strongly that things have changed since those some 400 years ago when things meant just that - Freeborn now means that a man is born with the will to be his own person, to strive in life and succeed (Which nearly every person on the planet is born with) - and we also stress that the symbolic penalties have been replaced with real penalties of being turfed out if someone were to commit a crime, or let our secret handshakes/passwords slip.

Despite your frankly childish attempts to link Masonry to works of ill repute, we're a proud organisation. We welcome anyone who wants to join as long as they're willing to let themselves become a better moral person and a more charitable person to all mankind.

Threads like these btw, are fantastic. You don't know how much good you do by raising these clearly fabricated arguments - the average non conspiracy theorist with an open mind who wants to learn about masonry can see through such desparate slurs and ill founded logic. These same boardsies actually then PM us, and ask us about joining. The conspiracy theory forum as far as I can make out must be responsible at this stage for almost a dozen joining our order. It could well be more.

For that Brown Bomber, I thank you

Absolam

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Squod if your interested this is good reading. It was intended for internal use within the lodges and was written by Master Mason Benjamin Franklin. I've come to the conclusion that their in no point in dealing with a mason on freemasonry because their is no honesty on their part. The final straw was when Absolam said that Pike is a bit-part player within masonry.

No... I didn't. I've posted twice on the subject of Pike and never made that statement.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

The point is that it excludes and discriminates against people BORN with deformities or disabilities not old todgers who develop arthrithis.

There is a member of my Lodge who was born with one leg. The point has been discussed ad nauseum; you continually quote ancient documents you find on the internet as if they were current.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Again it the reference is to "FREEBORN". Liberated slaves of free will and rights are ineligible due to the conditions of their BIRTH.

As above, but I wonder, what's your obsession with how people are born?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Your confusing someone legally insane/incompotent with someone with a mental illness. Not the same at all but both discriminated against by the masons.

YekahS wasn't confusing anything; you're just trying to muddy your argument. People who are incapable of understanding an oath should not be asked to take one, and Freemasonry won't ask them to take one.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

This is from The Principles of Masonic Law by Albert G. Mackey.

Indeed it is... written in 1856 by a Scottish Rite Freemason, for anyone who is interested. You might consider the contemporary restrictions placed on the right to vote in America; that too has changed somewhat in the last 150 years or so.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

"hidden doctrines"
That's why it's a waste of time talking to masons about masonry. They are oath/allegiance bound to the secrets of the order. You'll learn far more by watching this film

Ah be fair... it's a waste of time because you hear the truth which is not nearly as fun and ridiculous as the stuff you (and the guys who made the video) make up.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

ROFL. Oh the stupidity and blindness in what you wrote BB. First of all, American Masonry is it's own entity, and while it's recognised by the Grand Lodge of Ireland and England, they do things very differently as regards their interpretation of ritual and the historical origins of Masonry. As discussed here ad nauseum before, doubtless you saw the last time we discussed Masonry, there's even differences in Ireland between rituals.

Lovely jubbly, now wtf has that got to do with the section of my post you quoted?

Squod seemed interested in the ancient oringins of freemasonry. It was an authorative masonic source by Benjamin Franklin no less.

That aside it was made quite clear that it was a reprint of James Anderson's work commissioned by The Grand Lodge of London and Westminister (now the governing body of all England & Wales).

Anderson was a Freemason, the Master of a Masonic lodge, and a Grand Warden of the Grand Lodge of London and Westminster. He was commissioned in September 1721 by the Grand Lodge to write a history of the Free-Masons, and it was published in 1723 as The Constitutions of the Free-Masons. Anderson's name does not appear on the title page, but his authorship is declared in an appendix.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

No. No you can't. Stop making things up.

Now here you are either a) Lying or b) So ignorant of a basic tenet of freemasonry rendering it impossible that you actually are a mason as you claim (meaning you are lying).

In summary, you are lying?...Why?

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Again, you're someone with no inside knowledge of the craft, you see a word, put two and two together and get twenty two. We use the worn Freeborn because of it's historical references. Just like we use in our ritual the ancient but symbolic death penalties if someone were to let our secrets out. BUT, we stress strongly that things have changed since those some 400 years ago when things meant just that - Freeborn now means that a man is born with the will to be his own person, to strive in life and succeed (Which nearly every person on the planet is born with) - and we also stress that the symbolic penalties have been replaced with real penalties of being turfed out if someone were to commit a crime, or let our secret handshakes/passwords slip.

or the non-apologist version:

he Old Charges are among the things that are "going on today." Eliminate them from Freemasonry as it now functions and not a subordinate lodge, or a Grand Lodge, or any other regular Masonic body could operate at all; they are to what the Constitution of this nation is to the United States Government, and what its statutes are to every state in the Union. All our constitutions, statutes, laws, rules, by-laws and regulations to some extent or other hark back to the Old Charges, and without them Masonic jurisprudence, or the methods for governing and regulating the legal affairs of the Craft, would be left hanging suspended in the air.
http://www.masonicdictionary.com/charges.html

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Despite your frankly childish attempts to link Masonry to works of ill repute, we're a proud organisation. We welcome anyone who wants to join as long as they're willing to let themselves become a better moral person and a more charitable person to all mankind.

So does Scientology and other cults.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Threads like these btw, are fantastic. You don't know how much good you do by raising these clearly fabricated arguments - the average non conspiracy theorist with an open mind who wants to learn about masonry can see through such desparate slurs and ill founded logic. These same boardsies actually then PM us, and ask us about joining. The conspiracy theory forum as far as I can make out must be responsible at this stage for almost a dozen joining our order. It could well be more.
]For that Brown Bomber, I thank you

That's great. Each to their own and all that. I have nothing against any masons on a personal level and good luck to anyone who does join. Two of my favourite all-time people were masons.




.......................................................................................................

BTW what slurs have I made?

I've only quoted from masonic sources.

robroy1234

Brown Bomber - I appreciate the material that you have put forward and some of it is interesting reading. I am not sure whether you are hostile or supportive of Freemasonry, but that is your choice entirely. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and is free to openly air those opinions, however some people have great difficulty in finding that their opinions and beliefs are not supported by any fact at all. The problem with conspiracy theories are that on the whole some of the issues are plausible, they jump to conclusions and invent links and connections that are not related at all. For example: we as freemasons have been accused of meddling in politics, science, religion, education, finance and in the private lives of people, and despite that fact that even though men who are freemasons work or have interests in those areas - they do so in their capacity outside of freemasonry - they do not speak for freemasonry in such matters. The Grand Lodge of Ireland has never and will never do discuss or produce anything concerning those subjects. As for the conspiracy theorists that we are involved in plots to create a new world order, that is extremely far fetched. You could however look at certain sites such as the Catholic Social Teaching website and you will see the subjects and areas that the church meddles in, including politics, education, finance, etc., All denominations of christianity and different religions do that to a greater or lesser degree.
As for words, signs and grips, these are ancient methods of identification of fellow members of the craft and harks back to the days when craftsmen of the guilds could not read and write, and did not carry "union cards" to show their membership. But, knowledge of these words, signs and grips and exposure of them in public by non-masons with the belief that in doing so that we would no longer be a viable organisation, forget one important factor - what is referred to as the mystic tie is not a word, sign or grip, but the bond of friendship and brotherhood in the fraternity.
As for being Free, this is in reference to that to join any group or organisation you have to do so on your own free will and accord, you cannot be forced or coerced into joining. Considering that the majority of people are born into a church, vote in elections by following family preferences, participate or support sport teams based on tribal loyalty and other such limitations placed on them beyond their own personal control.
Without Maim or defect, is also a medieval concept that harks to actual construction of buildings and alludes to that a skilled craftsman is able and capable to perform his duties in safety to himself and others. This at the time when there were no health and safety, and no compensation schemes for injuries and death. As with all guilds craftsmen set up their own schemes for look out for each other and this included a system akin to health and safety, and the promise to care for craftsmen maim due to accidents and to care for their widows and children if accidents proved fatal. As for disabilities as such, we are speculative masons and not operative masons and therefore men who satisfy the requirements of entry and are disabled, are not prohibited from joining.

squod

A group to make contacts.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Document: http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1028&context=libraryscience

Flicked through it BB. Same old half story there.

WakeUp

The puppets

When people or organisations have lots of shussssh secrets well then obviously people are going to wonder what sort of sh1t you guys to be getting up to in your club thats human nature. I mean you cant even let us know the wording of your oath or is that still a rule? can you tell us the oath you take for the laugh no one will find out. Or better still share some knowledge with the minnions I know Im worthy I really am but I just couldnt be arsed joing up not that Id want to anyway. But we all like a good secret dont we I mean whats going on what knowledge do you people have that it has to be kept secret from the unworthy. You can say all you want that Freemasonry is just another club but it isnt too many secrets , rituals and hush hush to be anything like normal. For the record I think most of you guys are decent good human beings but the big secretive vibe surrounding the brotherhood makes me curious as to what you actually know/get up to and that wont change till' you front up and shower the masses with your pearls of wisdom, enlightenment and wonder.:)

Absolam

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Lovely jubbly, now wtf has that got to do with the section of my post you quoted? Squod seemed interested in the ancient oringins of freemasonry. It was an authorative masonic source by Benjamin Franklin no less. That aside it was made quite clear that it was a reprint of James Anderson's work commissioned by The Grand Lodge of London and Westminister (now the governing body of all England & Wales)

As usual trying to avoid the point when you're caught out?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Now here you are either a) Lying or b) So ignorant of a basic tenet of freemasonry rendering it impossible that you actually are a mason as you claim (meaning you are lying). In summary, you are lying?...Why?)

Or (and I'm sorry this might upset you ) c) As a Freemason PaintDoctor actually knows the process he went through, and understands you're making stuff up and presenting it as a basic tenet of Freemasonry when it's not. You've constantly ignored the most fundamental error pointed out in your argument; there are no 'higher levels'.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

or the non-apologist version:

Written in 1923... not quite a hundred years ago. Well done... at this rate you might actually be looking at current literature in a couple of months!

Brown Bomber wrote: »

So does Scientology and other cults.

So does Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and my local golf club. What's your point?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

That's great. Each to their own and all that. I have nothing against any masons on a personal level and good luck to anyone who does join. Two of my favourite all-time people were masons.

Well, one of them at least!

Brown Bomber wrote: »

BTW what slurs have I made?
I've only quoted from masonic sources.

Well, most recently:

Brown Bomber wrote:

In summary, you are lying?...

Brown Bomber wrote:

it excludes and discriminates against people BORN with deformities or disabilities

Brown Bomber wrote:

their in no point in dealing with a mason on freemasonry because their is no honesty on their part

I'd consider all these statements slurs, and that's without even going through other threads you've posted on.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

As usual trying to avoid the point when you're caught out?

Hmmm. let's put that to the test shall we? These are the relevant posts.

]Originally Posted by Brown Bomber View Post
Squod if your interested this is good reading. It was intended for internal use within the lodges and was written by Master Mason Benjamin Franklin. I've come to the conclusion that their in no point in dealing with a mason on freemasonry because their is no honesty on their part. The final straw was when Absolam said that Pike is a bit-part player within masonry
...

Originally Posted by PaintDoctor View Post
ROFL. Oh the stupidity and blindness in what you wrote BB. First of all, American Masonry is it's own entity, and while it's recognised by the Grand Lodge of Ireland and England, they do things very differently as regards their interpretation of ritual and the historical origins of Masonry. As discussed here ad nauseum before, doubtless you saw the last time we discussed Masonry, there's even differences in Ireland between rituals.

...

Originally Posted by Brown Bomber View Post
Lovely jubbly, now wtf has that got to do with the section of my post you quoted? Squod seemed interested in the ancient oringins of freemasonry. It was an authorative masonic source by Benjamin Franklin no less. That aside it was made quite clear that it was a reprint of James Anderson's work commissioned by The Grand Lodge of London and Westminister (now the governing body of all England & Wales)

In short I shared a link with squod. Paint Doctor then for some bizarre reason unkown to me started banging on about the differences between US and Irish/British masonry. I still responded to his point -

"That aside it was made quite clear that it was a reprint of James Anderson's work commissioned by The Grand Lodge of London and Westminister (now the governing body of all England & Wales)"

So perhaps you briefly could explain how I am "avoiding the point" and have been "caught out" as I see zero evidence of it.

Absolam wrote: »

Or (and I'm sorry this might upset you ) c) As a Freemason PaintDoctor actually knows the process he went through, and understands you're making stuff up and presenting it as a basic tenet of Freemasonry when it's not. You've constantly ignored the most fundamental error pointed out in your argument; there are no 'higher levels'.

I'm not making stuff up, it is rather dishonest for you to claim this. I've primarily quoted from official masonic sources.

And Are you saying that there are no higher levels in masonry than entered apprentice?

And you don't have to be a mason to know that there is secret balloting within masonry. It is an easily verifiable fact. Do you deny this?

Perhaps you'd like to be another mason to lie publically in this thread?

Is there secret balloting in Irish freemasonry?

Absolam wrote: »

Written in 1923... not quite a hundred years ago. Well done... at this rate you might actually be looking at current literature in a couple of months!

Yes after the Irish Constitution. Yet more obfuscating on your part. It's rather ironic that article written by a Freemason and taken from a freemasonic source confirming the inherent importance of the older texts to freemasonry is belittled by a freemason for being an old text don't you think?

Absolam wrote: »

So does Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and my local golf club. What's your point?

So your local golf club welcomes members "willing to let themselves become a better moral person and a more charitable person to all mankind" WTF ...:pac:

Methinks you through out the golf club at the end because to disguise the fact that you'd just mentioned three religions when masonry supposedly isn't religious in nature. Actually, I have a question if you don't mind...

What specifically would masonry have to change about itself to become religous (assuming it's not already)

Absolam wrote: »

I'd consider all these statements slurs, and that's without even going through other threads you've posted on.

They are all easily explained.

In summary, you are lying?...
He was.

it excludes and discriminates against people BORN with deformities or disabilities
According to freemasonry's own documents it does.

their in no point in dealing with a mason on freemasonry because their is no honesty on their part


1.Selective quoting continuing the pattern on dishonesty.

"I've come to the conclusion that their in no point in dealing with a mason on freemasonry because their is no honesty on their part."


2. It's a natural logical conclusion that you cannot be trusted regarding freemasonry in discourse with the profane because you are oath-bound to protect it's "hidden doctrines".

How can you possibly try to argue against this?

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Brown Bomber - I appreciate the material that you have put forward and some of it is interesting reading. I am not sure whether you are hostile or supportive of Freemasonry, but that is your choice entirely. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and is free to openly air those opinions, however some people have great difficulty in finding that their opinions and beliefs are not supported by any fact at all. The problem with conspiracy theories are that on the whole some of the issues are plausible, they jump to conclusions and invent links and connections that are not related at all. For example: we as freemasons have been accused of meddling in politics, science, religion, education, finance and in the private lives of people, and despite that fact that even though men who are freemasons work or have interests in those areas - they do so in their capacity outside of freemasonry - they do not speak for freemasonry in such matters. The Grand Lodge of Ireland has never and will never do discuss or produce anything concerning those subjects. As for the conspiracy theorists that we are involved in plots to create a new world order, that is extremely far fetched. You could however look at certain sites such as the Catholic Social Teaching website and you will see the subjects and areas that the church meddles in, including politics, education, finance, etc., All denominations of christianity and different religions do that to a greater or lesser degree.
As for words, signs and grips, these are ancient methods of identification of fellow members of the craft and harks back to the days when craftsmen of the guilds could not read and write, and did not carry "union cards" to show their membership. But, knowledge of these words, signs and grips and exposure of them in public by non-masons with the belief that in doing so that we would no longer be a viable organisation, forget one important factor - what is referred to as the mystic tie is not a word, sign or grip, but the bond of friendship and brotherhood in the fraternity.
As for being Free, this is in reference to that to join any group or organisation you have to do so on your own free will and accord, you cannot be forced or coerced into joining. Considering that the majority of people are born into a church, vote in elections by following family preferences, participate or support sport teams based on tribal loyalty and other such limitations placed on them beyond their own personal control.
Without Maim or defect, is also a medieval concept that harks to actual construction of buildings and alludes to that a skilled craftsman is able and capable to perform his duties in safety to himself and others. This at the time when there were no health and safety, and no compensation schemes for injuries and death. As with all guilds craftsmen set up their own schemes for look out for each other and this included a system akin to health and safety, and the promise to care for craftsmen maim due to accidents and to care for their widows and children if accidents proved fatal. As for disabilities as such, we are speculative masons and not operative masons and therefore men who satisfy the requirements of entry and are disabled, are not prohibited from joining.

Thank you for the considered an non-aggressive response. It's appreciated . I think I should point out that my interest in masonry is out of curiosity; it has a rich history and the fact that much of it is concealed it has taken almost mystical propotions based on a smorgasbord of truth, hearsay, myths and legends, from the outside at least makes it fascinating to me.

It's interesting to me to speculate on alternative history, but I am aware it is speculation. The problem here is that my speculation involves other people here now so if I've offended you I apologise.

The reality I am sure is much more mundane, dogmatic, and (no offense) a little silly - grown men playing dress up bowing to their worshipful master etc.

However, the masonic network is global and hugely influential and the potential for subversiveness is real imo. Masonic connections to P-2, The Illuminati, French Revolution, Bolshevik Revolution, Alta Vendita, The Klu Klux Klan and much more is a testament to this. The event which triggered the First World War - the assasination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand was a masonic conpsiracy, carried out by masons for example.

Yitzhak Rabin

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Is there secret balloting in Irish freemasonry?

See, you're being dishonest again. Thats not what you asked PaintDoctor.

You asked:

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You can be be blackballed and refused the opportunity to attain the higher levels can you not?

Which is a different question, and untrue.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

yekahS wrote: »

See, you're being dishonest again. Thats not what you asked PaintDoctor.

You asked:



Which is a different question, and untrue.

It's not what I asked originally but he ducked the question .

This is probably why

THE CHARGES OF A FREE-MASON EXTRACTED FROM The Ancient RECORDS of LODGES beyond Sea, and of those in England, Scotland, and Ireland, for the Use of the Lodges.


4. Behaviour in Presence of Strangers not Masons.
You shall be cautious in your Words and Carriage, that the most penetrating Stranger shall not be able to discover or find out what is not proper to be intimated, and sometimes you shall divert a Discourse, and manage it prudently for the Honour of the worshipful Fraternity.

so I made it simpler. I already know the answer anyway.

From A Textbook of Masonic Jurisprudence by Bro. Albert G. Mackey. pg 164 & 164

Apprentices also have the right to apply for advancement to a higher degree...He is eligible for advancement; but here this right ceases. It goes no further than the mere prerogative of applying. It is only the right of petition. The apprentice has, in fact no more claim to the second degree than the profane has to the first. It is a most mistaken opinion to suppose that when a profane is elected as a candidate, he is elected to recieve all the degrees that can be conferred in a Symbolic lodge. Freemasonry is a rigid system of probation. A second step never can be attained unless sufficent proof has been given that the candidate is "worthy" and well qualified. A candidate who received the first degree is no more assured by this reception that he will reach the third than he will attain the Royal Arch...Hence on the petition of an Apprentice to be passed as a Fellow Craft a ballot should always be taken...Any other view would exclude the inherent right which is declared by the Regulations of 1721 to exist in every Lodge, of being the best judges of the qualifications of it's members.

robroy1234

Brown Bomber - in relation to any International conspiracies etc., such as the P2 scandal, you will find that the Vatican was far more involved and that Roberto Calvi was known as God's banker, he was the fella found under blackfriars bidge. The P2 group wasn't at all Masonic, as no initiations took place and that the Grand Lodge of Italy rejected it. The P2 members were mostly former supporters of the Fascist Party. As for the KKK, they are a localised organisation based in the Southern States of the US, and are violent racists. They have no association beyond the confines of the US. Any other conspiracy theory that we are involved with such organisations as the Bilderburg, the Illuminati etc., are so ridiculous that they cannot be taken seriously, but many violent conspiracy theorists do take them seriously. As for the New World Order, there has Only been one global entity that has strove to be the major force in the world, besides that of the UN, and that is the Vatican. But, this is not a religious debate and therefore we will stop at this point concerning the influence of certain religious groups, churches and organisations in politics, economics, medicine, and the private lives of citizens. Suffice it to say, the people whom it seems accuse us of doing all sorts of things in society are the very ones committing these acts.
I think that many people have dreamt up some ideas that we have some arcane, secret, known to us select few and that we jealously keep it guarded for our own selfish ends. They get more so annoyed when discovering that this is completely untrue. We do have a secret ballot, but that is not strange or different to any other organisation, and we are free to pick and choose the type of member we want in our organisation.
Brown Bomber - there is somewhat of a problem when using old terminology, and in our case our wording and phrases have not changed since freemasonry was formed. This has given rise to a present day interpretation of what we say. A prime example of a modern interpretation from an ancient concept would be to look at Mel Gibson's Braveheart, in the film he is always referring to Freedom - but only in the modern sense, in those days William Wallace was a supporter of John Balliol, King of Scotland and puppet to Longshanks. If you go back to that time with a modern interpretation of Freedom you would find that it would be a completely alien concept to them.

Owen

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Now here you are either a) Lying or b) So ignorant of a basic tenet of freemasonry rendering it impossible that you actually are a mason as you claim (meaning you are lying).

In summary, you are lying?...Why?

Right ... so lets see. I'm not using this forum in an anonymous manner by hiding behind a username (Unlike you) ... my signature links to my business which is easily verifiable (Unlike you) ... It's quite easy to meet me in person given those details and ask me for a tour of the Lodge room in Cork. Quite a few users here have done it. With a bit of detective work from my sig, you can get my real name, and then make a quick telephone call to Molesworth Street and find out my office in Lodge for this year if you'd like. Or if you want to come to Cork, I'll give you a tour myself.

And BTW, I didn't dodge any question. I was out yesterday at the Tom Jones concert, there's a life beyond the Internet and Boards

You asked the question about there being secret ballots for the higher orders of Masonry (Bearing in mind as pointed out to you at length, there's no higher order than than of a Master Mason, the others are complimentary). I rightly told you there was no secret ballot for those degrees. There is a secret ballot for someone who applies to join as an Entered Apprentice, but it's the only time a secret ballot is ever held. That, is an entirely different question/answer to the one you directed at me.

Absolam

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

So perhaps you briefly could explain how I am "avoiding the point" and have been "caught out"as I see zero evidence of it.

Of course you do. Nonetheless, you tried to ignore PaintDoctors point that American Freemasonry is different from Irish Freemasonry, and tried to make it appear you were talking about English Freemasonry.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm not making stuff up, it is rather dishonest for you to claim this. I've primarily quoted from official masonic sources.

I'm not saying you made up your quotes, but you did make up your conclusions:

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You can be be blackballed and refused the opportunity to attain the higher levels can you not?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Now here you are either a) Lying or b) So ignorant of a basic tenet of freemasonry rendering it impossible that you actually are a mason as you claim (meaning you are lying). In summary, you are lying?...Why?

You've presented your conclusion and called someone a liar, with no basis other than your own ideas; you made it up.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

And Are you saying that there are no higher levels in masonry than entered apprentice?

That's not what I said, and you know it's not what I said, again you're making things up.

Brown Bomber wrote:

And you don't have to be a mason to know that there is secret balloting within masonry. It is an easily verifiable fact. Do you deny this?

It's no secret there is secret balloting in Masonry. Why would I deny it? That doesn't mean you can stretch the truth and imagine that there is secret balloting on your choice of imaginary subjects, because to claim that would be lying.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Perhaps you'd like to be another mason to lie publically in this thread?

I haven't seen any evidence of a Mason lying on this thread. I have seen you call people liars because they disagree with you though.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Is there secret balloting in Irish freemasonry?

Yes indeed, as has been explained to you.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Yet more obfuscating on your part. It's rather ironic that article written by a Freemason and taken from a freemasonic source confirming the inherent importance of the older texts to freemasonry is belittled by a freemason for being an old text don't you think?

I'm not certain how it would be ironic, but I'm not belittling the article in any case. These things are of immense historical interest to Freemasons, and I very much enjoy reading them. I simply don't imagine for a second that historical articles such as the one you linked are definitive treatises on Modern Freemasonry, because that would be idiotic.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

So your local golf club welcomes members "willing to let themselves become a better moral person and a more charitable person to all mankind" WTF

What club wouldn't?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Methinks you through out the golf club at the end because to disguise the fact that you'd just mentioned three religions when masonry supposedly isn't religious in nature. Actually, I have a question if you don't mind... What specifically would masonry have to change about itself to become religous (assuming it's not already)

Freemasonry isn't a religion, many Freemasons are religious. I don't think an organisation can become religious; it either is or isn't a religious organisation.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

They are all easily explained.

That does not stop them from being slurs.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

In summary, you are lying?..He was.

No, he just knew more than you about the subject. You made up the idea that there is secret balloting for higher levels; he told you you were wrong.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

it excludes and discriminates against people BORN with deformities or disabilities. According to freemasonry's own documents it does.

No, according to your interpretation of the documents you've seen it does. Whilst ignoring the fact that it's easy to actually see Freemasons with deformaties or disabilites by standing outside a Masonic Hall for a while. If you're really interested, you can ask them if they were born with them. Or would that be too much like finding out the truth instead of making things up?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

their in no point in dealing with a mason on freemasonry because their is no honesty on their part 1.Selective quoting continuing the pattern on dishonesty. "I've come to the conclusion that their in no point in dealing with a mason on freemasonry because their is no honesty on their part."

My not noting that you came to a conclusion is dishonest? Do you really think the substance of your statement was in any way misrepresented?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

2. It's a natural logical conclusion that you cannot be trusted regarding freemasonry in discourse with the profane because you are oath-bound to protect it's "hidden doctrines". How can you possibly try to argue against this?

Ah well if it's natural then it's fine isn't it? But as we've discussed before; "profane" and "hidden doctrines" are your terms not mine. And as a self professed "profane" individual it's only natural that you'd be well up on the oaths binding me to protect your "hidden doctrines". I couldn't possibly argue against this, because you're the only one who has any idea what you're talking about. The perfect, unassailable position for a CTer.

robroy1234

In relation to Bomb bomber's comments and responses and to any other for that matter, I am pretty much at ease with whatever idea people may have of us, regardless if the they believe we are for good or evil. We continue on in the manner that is suitable for us. It is the same way in other walks of life, considering that athletes still continue competing despite allegations of steriod abuse, Politicians still decide on political matters regardless of financial scandals, priests and pastors still preach and minister to their respective parishioners in spite of the abuse relevations, and so therefore we will continue with upholding our traditional practices, becoming better men within ourselves, and providing some funds towards our chosen charities - this in respect to a multitude of accusations which none of us individually or collectively are capable of doing.
People can believe whatever they want to believe, they are adults and perfectly capable of making informed decisions for themselves, the only problem is when the incorrect information is relayed to them and despite evidence contrary to that information they continue on, unable or unwilling to accept that mind-mapping exercise of the paradigm shift.
This leads to another problem which is part of the structure of freemasonry in that some people get confused about. This problem is that in terms of myself, my own personal opinion about a subject - whether it is political, economical, religious, medical etc., is MY OWN THOUGHT, and I do not speak for or represent freemasonry when expressing such thoughts. Not one Brother mason in Ireland can speak on these subjects on behalf of the Grand Lodge of Ireland. These subjects are never discussed, and never printed or expressed in the lodge before, during and after meetings. Therefore the Grand Lodge of Ireland remains aloof and silent on all issues domestic and international that is in these spheres.
But, as mentioned previously, there have been certain historically famous freemasons who have done amazing things in their lives, whether that is through Science, Medicine, Economics, Politics, etc., but these achievements were done outside of freemasonry and not because of freemasonry. Therefore it is quite common for people to jump to conclusions that what we do not say in Public - we influence in Private.
As for certain aspects of membership - I could be a member of a local golf club, people can see me enter the club, play the game, sit in the clubhouse, but my membership number which allows me to enter the club and use the facilities is for my own use only and is private to me only.

So for the people like Bomb Bomber, I can understand your position, but we are only just trying to enjoy our membership to an organisation that we prefer to be members.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Brown Bomber - in relation to any International conspiracies etc., such as the P2 scandal, you will find that the Vatican was far more involved and that Roberto Calvi was known as God's banker, he was the fella found under blackfriars bidge. The P2 group wasn't at all Masonic, as no initiations took place and that the Grand Lodge of Italy rejected it. The P2 members were mostly former supporters of the Fascist Party.

To be fair by all accounts P-2 was a regular lodge. That's even how they came to be known as P-2. In an effort to organise the lodges the Grand Lodge of Italy had the regular lodges draw lots to see how they would be numbered, Lodge Propoganda drew lot two becoming P-2.

Gelli and P-2 were only expelled after the police raid on Grand Master Lucio Gelli's home, long after the terrorist attacks in Milan and Paetano.

robroy1234 wrote: »

As for the KKK, they are a localised organisation based in the Southern States of the US, and are violent racists.

Yes they are violent racists and they were founded by Freemasons and revived by Freemasons in their second even more violent and racist incarnation.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Any other conspiracy theory that we are involved with such organisations as the Bilderburg, the Illuminati etc., are so ridiculous that they cannot be taken seriously,

The Bavarian were very much real they were founded and run by a Freemason, Adam Weishaupt. They were very much subversive. I don't see what your argument is here.

I'm not saying the Klan/Illuminati/P-2 are the same as regular masonry just that they are evidence of the dangers of freemasonry which is vulnerable to be used as a vehicle for these "violent racists" and so on. Freemasonry itself, imo is based on supremacism: the initiate over the profane and is shrouded in secrecy with a vast international network making it a natural target for infiltration.

robroy1234 wrote: »

but many violent conspiracy theorists do take them seriously.

I am not aware of any violent attacks by conspiracy theorists on freemasons.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Brown Bomber - there is somewhat of a problem when using old terminology, and in our case our wording and phrases have not changed since freemasonry was formed. This has given rise to a present day interpretation of what we say. A prime example of a modern interpretation from an ancient concept would be to look at Mel Gibson's Braveheart, in the film he is always referring to Freedom - but only in the modern sense, in those days William Wallace was a supporter of John Balliol, King of Scotland and puppet to Longshanks. If you go back to that time with a modern interpretation of Freedom you would find that it would be a completely alien concept to them.

That's a very valid point and it is duly noticed.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Right ... so lets see. I'm not using this forum in an anonymous manner by hiding behind a username (Unlike you) ... my signature links to my business which is easily verifiable (Unlike you) ... It's quite easy to meet me in person given those details and ask me for a tour of the Lodge room in Cork. Quite a few users here have done it. With a bit of detective work from my sig, you can get my real name, and then make a quick telephone call to Molesworth Street and find out my office in Lodge for this year if you'd like. Or if you want to come to Cork, I'll give you a tour myself.

That's nice of you, genuinely. I don't live in Ireland though, would've been interesting.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

And BTW, I didn't dodge any question. I was out yesterday at the Tom Jones concert, there's a life beyond the Internet and Boards

I'd say most of the people at a Tom Jones concert were "out";)

PaintDoctor wrote: »

You asked the question about there being secret ballots for the higher orders of Masonry (Bearing in mind as pointed out to you at length, there's no higher order than than of a Master Mason, the others are complimentary). I rightly told you there was no secret ballot for those degrees. There is a secret ballot for someone who applies to join as an Entered Apprentice, but it's the only time a secret ballot is ever held. That, is an entirely different question/answer to the one you directed at me.

OK I hold my hand up, it appears I was wrong and I think we had our wires crossed a little which didn't help. If I wrongly accused you of lying I apologise. Live and learn and all that. However, you said it is a "choice" for the initiate to take the higher degrees. I dispute this. Surely not every Entered Apprentice is suitable to become a Master Mason? There is no due dillegence? No observance of the Entered Apprentice? Just your in...learn your cathecism like a good lad and read this book on symbols and you'll get your Master Mason's degree in a few weeks. It reminds me of when I was in the Cubs getting badges for tying a knot or the special olympics were everyone gets a medal.

Also, I am 100% sure that some of the degrees outside the craft degrees are by invitation only.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

Of course you do. Nonetheless, you tried to ignore PaintDoctors point that American Freemasonry is different from Irish Freemasonry, and tried to make it appear you were talking about English Freemasonry. .

I've already explained this to you; as if any explanation was actually necessary. I was adressing squod and sharing a link. Why you continue to labour the point is anyone's guess.

FWIW I did address Paintdoctors non-relevant point i.e. American and Irish masonry are different. I never disputed this, I am aware that they are different. My point was that Jefferson's work was a reprint on Anderson's 1723 Constitution. Perhaps you could honestly share the significance of this constitution to Irish masonry?

Absolam wrote: »

I'm not saying you made up your quotes, but you did make up your conclusions:

I "made up" MY CONCLUSIONS? :pac: Someone call RTE news, there is a guy thinking for himself coming to conclusions of his own.

BTW you haven't cited a single source for your assertions yet.

Absolam wrote: »

Freemasonry isn't a religion, many Freemasons are religious. I don't think an organisation can become religious; it either is or isn't a religious organisation.

OK I'll put it another way. In your view why isn't Freemasonry a religion?

Absolam wrote: »

Ah well if it's natural then it's fine isn't it? But as we've discussed before; "profane" and "hidden doctrines" are your terms not mine.

And yet.more.obfuscation.

"Hidden Doctrines" was not my term it was a quote from The Principles of Masonic Law by Bro. Albert G. Mackey (as stated!)

. It is evident, for instance, that an idiot could neither understand the hidden doctrines that might be communicated to him, nor could he so secure such portions as he might remember, in the "depositary of his heart," as to prevent the designing knave from worming them out of him

Profane? My term? Nope, it's a masonic term which you undoubtedly know yourself already.

[SIZE=-1]PROFANE[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]A word used by Freemasons to refer to non-Masons. Although probably not intended as a pejorative, it nonetheless comes across as such due to how the meaning of the word has changed over the years. Within the context of Masonic ritual the word maintains value, however outside the lodge it should not be used.[/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]- Source: MasonicDictionary.com[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]PROFANE[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]This has a technical meaning in Masonry, nevertheless it adheres closely to the original significance of the word. Fanum was the Latin for temple; pro meant “before,” in the sense of “outside of.” It is the picture of man standing on the outside, not permitted to enter. It has tlfis same sense in Masonry; the “profane” are those men and women who stand outside of Masonry. The word here, of course, has nothing to do with profanity in the sense of sacrilegious language.[/SIZE][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]- Source: 100 Words in Masonry[/SIZE]

Absolam wrote: »

And as a self professed "profane" individual it's only natural that you'd be well up on the oaths binding me to protect your "hidden doctrines". I couldn't possibly argue against this, because you're the only one who has any idea what you're talking about. The perfect, unassailable position for a CTer.

On the contrary they are masonic terms used by masons. Why obfuscate?

Wolfe Tone

A money making group.

Meh, they just seem to be a club with some fancy symbols. I say its kinda neat having the rings and handshakes and stuff.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

So for the people like Bomb Bomber, I can understand your position, but we are only just trying to enjoy our membership to an organisation that we prefer to be members.

I genuinely wish you all the best with it. Honest. You've been highly dignified in your exchanges with me despite the difficult circumstances for you. If masonry has contributed to this I commend it. It's honestly nothing personal, I don't hate masonry or masons. My father-in-law is a mason.