The Freemasons

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Meh, they just seem to be a club with some fancy symbols. I say its kinda neat having the rings and handshakes and stuff.

"Signs and symbols rule the world, not words nor laws."
- Confucius

nullzero

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Meh, they just seem to be a club with some fancy symbols. I say its kinda neat having the rings and handshakes and stuff.

Begs the question why would anyone want to bother being a member?

Owen

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'd say most of the people at a Tom Jones concert were "out";)

lol, cheeky bugger!!

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Surely not every Entered Apprentice is suitable to become a Master Mason? There is no due dillegence? No observance of the Entered Apprentice? Just your in...learn your cathecism like a good lad and read this book on symbols and you'll get your Master Mason's degree in a few weeks. It reminds me of when I was in the Cubs getting badges for tying a knot or the special olympics were everyone gets a medal.

There is a relatively short period of time to wait between the 1st, 2nd and 3rd degrees, but every EA can and is entitled to become a Master Mason. Becoming a Worshipful Master's a different thing, anyone can do that too, but they must show that they have learned their ritual, and understand the working of the Lodge fully. Nearly everyone does this anyway.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Also, I am 100% sure that some of the degrees outside the craft degrees are by invitation only.

There are indeed - but having said that, nearly everyone gets invited anyway. It's just a technicality, and like all clubs, it's more fun when there's more people, so it's in everyone's interest to invite as many as possible. Ideally, you'd want to be retired to take on the additional degrees/side orders. If you wanted to with the various Lodges around each province, you could be out every night of the week, and most people just don't have time to do that.

robroy1234

Bomb Bomber - you raise some pretty valid points, but here a few areas that I do take issue with. I visited the Grand Lodge of Italy a few years and they presented me with a fantastic book on Italian Freemasonry in English. I presented it to my lodge and invited any Brother to read it. The book goes into detail of the events during the rise of Mussolini and the crackdown on freemasonry. Many Italian freemasons like many throughout Europe during the second world war ended up in concentration camps or were executed. It also goes into detail about Gelli and the Propaganda Deux (P2) and their illegal activities. Gelli used blackmail, bullying, intimidation and bribery into forcing prominent men into that organisation. They were involved with certain banking irregularities with the Vatican bank and when a substantial amount of money went missing Roberto Calvi went on the run, and later found hanging from Blackfriars Bridge. As for the KKK and white supremist groups in the States, we are talking about a different kettle of fish. As I mentioned earlier - what we do outside of the lodge in our own free time, has nothing to do with the workings of the lodge. I can have any opinion on politics, medicine, philosophy, education, economics etc., these areas of interest have nothing to do with freemasonry and my opinions on these matters are not the opinion of the Grand Lodge of Ireland. We have Brothers who are politically right of centre, and some who are left of centre, we have Brothers who are catholic, protestant, jewish and muslim - none of these things matter in the lodge. So I if say to you that I believe that for medical reasons abortion should be acceptable - that is my own opinion and not the position of the Grand Lodge of Ireland or that of any other mason. In relation to the KKK I guess that you are referring to Albert Pike, but in fairness the KKK has a far more stronger link to the National Rifle Association than any other organisation. In fact they were formed by the same people at the same time in response to the same issues.

If there was any organisation or association in Ireland where political matters are discussed and decided upon by certain bankers, businessmen and politicians - then you will be looking at Golf Clubs, and not us. It has been revealed prior to the general election that Brian Cowen played Golf all day with Sean Fitzpatrick then the next day announces the bank guarantee scheme. Every other politician, businessman, banker seem to play Golf and have exclusive membership of clubs such as the K-club. So maybe we should all be looking at Golf clubs instead.

The crux of the problem that concerns us today, especially in relation to the catholic church was the material that was written by Leo Taxil in the 19th Century. Taxil was disgraced and removed from the masonic lodge in France and in spite he wrote a series of allegations against freemasonry, copied no less from the "confessions" and charges against the Templar Knights in 1307. Taxil was then endorsed by the Vatican, but was later found to be a fraud, even boasting publicly that he made everything up. The Vatican instead of retracting the material continued to push it forward and for the past 100 years made decisions based on these fraudulent documents.

enda1

Why do people fear it so much. Is it just cause you're not members? Just cause you are not certain of what they do?

I don't really "get" or understand bridge clubs. But if they wanna spend their Thursday evenings together playing cards then live and let live!
To me it seems like the adult version of the Scouts. Just a way of passing time with people that's not all about drinking down the pub or playing some sport...

robroy1234

Funny that you mention that we are like an adult version of the Scout. Robert Baden-Powel was an ardent freemason and he wanted to set up an organisation to instill the same moral and ethical structure as freemasonry, but not have it directly linked. Unlike the DeMolay International in the US which is directly linked to freemasonry. The off-shoots include the Cubs, the Brownies, the Girl Guides, and the Webelos. The names used in the cubs and scouts such as Arkala (Arkela) came from another notable freemason Rudyard Kipling in his story The Jungle Book.

Absolam

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

My point was that Jefferson's work was a reprint on Anderson's 1723 Constitution. Perhaps you could honestly share the significance of this constitution to Irish masonry?

Actually, your point was:

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It was intended for internal use within the lodges and was written by Master Mason Benjamin Franklin. I've come to the conclusion that their in no point in dealing with a mason on freemasonry because their is no honesty on their part. The final straw was when Absolam said that Pike is a bit-part player within masonry.

Andersons Constitutions are historically significant for all Freemasons as they chart a portion of the course of the development of Freemasonry. They were used as a model for the original Book of Constitutions of the Grand Lodge of Ireland. And before you leap to any conclusions, the current Constitutions are published and freely available; you might want to buy a copy and compare them to Andersons Constitutions before you draw any inferences.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I "made up"MY CONCLUSIONS? Someone call RTE news, there is a guy thinking for himself coming to conclusions of his own.

Feel free to draw conclusions, just don't present them as facts.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

BTW you haven't cited a single source for your assertions yet.

What assertion?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

OK I'll put it another way. In your view why isn't Freemasonry a religion?

I suppose the shortest answer is; because it doesn't profess to be one.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

And yet.more.obfuscation. "Hidden Doctrines" was not my term it was a quote from The Principles of Masonic Law by Bro. Albert G. Mackey (as stated!) Profane? My term? Nope, it's a masonic term which you undoubtedly know yourself already. On the contrary they are masonic terms used by masons. Why obfuscate?

Actually, these are terms believed by anti Masons to be used by Masons. This is not obfuscation; in over 20 years as a Freemason I've never heard a single Freemason use either term except when quoting an anti-Masonic writer. And I talk to quite a few Freemasons.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

To be fair by all accounts P-2 was a regular lodge. That's even how they came to be known as P-2. In an effort to organise the lodges the Grand Lodge of Italy had the regular lodges draw lots to see how they would be numbered, Lodge Propoganda drew lot two becoming P-2. Gelli and P-2 were only expelled after the police raid on Grand Master Lucio Gelli's home, long after the terrorist attacks in Milan and Paetano. Yes they are violent racists and they were founded by Freemasons and revived by Freemasons in their second even more violent and racist incarnation.

To avoid the same discussion all over again, I refer you to my last reply when you made that point:

Absolam wrote: »

I categorically dispute that P2 (as referred to) were Freemasons. A Propoganda Due Lodge operating under the Grand Orient of Italy existed from 1877, but the P2 Lodge founded by Gelli in 1966 had its warrant rescinded by GOI in 1974. The fact that he continued to use the name did not mean that he was a Freemason or that the lodge was Masonic; the Masonic Lodge was gone, and Gelli had been expelled from the Order. I would also say that, presuming the terrorism you refer to is the Bologna massacre in 1980, that the terrrorist act was at the time believed to be carried out by Nuclei Armati Rivoluzionari, and that two members of P2 were convicted of slandering the investigation (not of participation in the act); and those convictions were later overturned. So whilst there's no doubt in my mind that P2 (non Masonic Lodge) was a fascist reactionary organisation, I don't think anyone has presented any evidence that they ever carried out any terrorist acts.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

The Bavarian were very much real they were founded and run by a Freemason, Adam Weishaupt. They were very much subversive. I don't see what your argument is here. I'm not saying the Klan/Illuminati/P-2 are the same as regular masonry just that they are evidence of the dangers of freemasonry which is vulnerable to be used as a vehicle for these "violent racists" and so on. Freemasonry itself, imo is based on supremacism: the initiate over the profane and is shrouded in secrecy with a vast international network making it a natural target for infiltration.

So by your account Freemasonry is dangerous because it is vulnerable to infitration, despite being shrouded in secrecy? How exactly is Freemasonry based on supremacism? Who is supposed to be supreme over whom?

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

The names used in the cubs and scouts such as Arkala (Arkela) came from another notable freemason Rudyard Kipling in his story The Jungle Book.

Aha, the plot thickens. My masonic father-in-law named all his race horses after characters from the Jungle Book. He even owns the copyright to the name of one of them. Hmmmmm...

nullzero

Ok, so in an attempt to skip past the quote towers and unreadable text blocks, are we settled that according to the Freemasons on this thread that the organisation, as far as they know is essentially benign?

Absolam

A money making group.

Yep

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

nullzero wrote: »

Ok, so in an attempt to skip past the quote towers and unreadable text blocks, are we settled that according to the Freemasons on this thread that the organisation, as far as they know is essentially benign?

Benign? All conspiracy theories aside I personally don't consider it benign that that government ministers, judges, civil servants, members of the police force and so on will bow down before a masonic altar blindfolded and noosed like chubbs here.



and swear an oath of secrecy at risk of having their tongues pulled out and other nastiness to the one they will call Worshipful Master. In fact the thought of an elected head of state referring reverently to another as worshipful master is an affront to a free democracy. So there is no doubt when the blindfold is lifted they see some of their other brothers pointing knives and other weapons in their direction.

Absolam

A money making group.

OK, so according to the Freemasons on this thread the organisation as far as we know is essentially benign, and according to Brown Bomber it's an affront to democracy. There we have it.

nullzero

Absolam wrote: »

OK, so according to the Freemasons on this thread the organisation as far as we know is essentially benign, and according to Brown Bomber it's an affront to democracy. There we have it.

Ah right, so Brown Bomber continues to stand by his beliefs and the Freemasons here maintain that their organisation (the one they wouldn't want anyone to know was up to no good if it was) is benign.
I'm guessing that the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

autonomy

I got black balled when I tried to join

Yitzhak Rabin

A money making group.

nullzero wrote: »

Ah right, so Brown Bomber continues to stand by his beliefs and the Freemasons here maintain that their organisation (the one they wouldn't want anyone to know was up to no good if it was) is benign.
I'm guessing that the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

Why?

robroy1234

Brown Bomber - your local Golf Club may also be a benign place, but more politicians, businessmen, bankers etc., are members of golf clubs, go through a selection process for membership, and have no qualms about discussing deals and policies while on the green. If Brian Cowen met Sean Fitzpatrick the day before the bank guarantee scheme was announced in a lodge, then you would have something to go on about with your conspiracy theory. But, Cowen and Fitzpatrick are not and never have been freemasons and they met at a golf club. But, there has never been any uproar or protest against golf clubs, yet more goes on at these places then anywhere else.
In terms of our perceived political power, we are no more "connected" than any other group of people. In Mayo there is only one lodge in Ballina with a small group of members - are you suggesting that these fellas, some whom are farmers, have the whole of Mayo in their grasp and to force the people to vote for Enda Kenny.
A few years ago, long before I joined, I used to work for a government department in Dublin, and one of the most corrupt politicians of the time came from county Kerry. He was extremely generous to a very select group of people in Kerry - none of them were masons, they were all involved in the Horse racing/Stud business.
As for influence around the country, at local and national level you don't need to look any further than the GAA. The GAA in terms of sport funding gets the lion's share as well as Television rights and control of every county's sport partnership. In terms of sporting employment a GAA member would more likely to be employed in a county sport partnership then say a member of the athletic community, even if that athlete has higher qualifications and experience.
There is a tendency here to focus on us, as we are a small group of men and have no influence in manner which we are accused of. This is a distraction to the real issues and the people who are exerting undue influence in such matters.

enda1

nullzero wrote: »

Ah right, so Brown Bomber continues to stand by his beliefs and the Freemasons here maintain that their organisation (the one they wouldn't want anyone to know was up to no good if it was) is benign.
I'm guessing that the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

Doesn't sound so different to going to mass really. And they're all up to that too, the feckers!

robroy1234

Here is the constitution of the Abbeyfeale Golfing Society.

Abbeyfeale Golfing Society shall operate under the Rules of Amateur Status as laid down by the Ancient Golf Club of St. Andrews.

So an ancient set of rules and regulations.

4.1 Application for Membership:
Any person who wishes to join Abbeyfeale Golfing Society must complete a Membership Form, available from the Secretary. This application form must be signed and dated by the applicant. A person duly granted membership shall be liable for their membership fee in accordance with Article 4.3 of this constitution.

4.3 Subscriptions of Members:
The annual subscription for membership of Abbeyfeale Golfing Society will be determined by the incoming Committee and communicated to members at the Annual General Meeting. The subscription rate(non refundable and non transferable) set at this meeting shall remain in force until the next Annual General Meeting except in the case of an Extra Ordinary General Meeting (EGM) convened in accordance with Section 9.2 of this constitution.The committee shall have the power to exclude the name of any person who has not paid their annual subscription for the current year from all prizes until such membership is paid in full.
No subscription is applicable in the case of Lifetime Membership of the Society.

Membership is determined by a committee and reliant on fees being paid.

4.4 Lifetime Membership

The Committee of Abbeyfeale Golfing Society reserve the right to confer Lifetime Membership on any person deemed suitable on approval by the majority of the committee.
Lifetime Membership shall entitle the holder to the same rights and privilege as a full member.

Special preferences made in a hierarchy.

5.0 Code of Conduct of Members.
The public profile of Abbeyfeale Golfing Society is beholden to the members.
The etiquette of the game of golf is of a high standard and the Society seeks to reach and exceed that etiquette.
In the event of any actions or words of a member of the Society bringing the Society into disrepute, a meeting of the Committee shall enquire into such conduct, and may request the member to attend at a committee meeting to discuss the matter.
In the event that the committee decides that the actions or words of any member brings the Society into disrepute the Committee reserve the right to suspend or expel the member from the Society.

6.0 Removal of Membership:
In the event that a player has been found, following investigation by the Committee, of an act bringing the Society into disrepute the Committee reserve the right to remove or suspend the membership privileges of that member. The members of Abbeyfeale Golfing Society will be informed of the reasons for the removal or suspension of any member from the Society.

7.0 Society Officers and Committee:
The Committee of Abbeyfeale Golfing Society shall consist of a minimum five (5), one of whom shall be the Captain of the Society.
The quorum for a meeting of the Committee is three (3) members,one of whom shall be the Captain,Vice-Captain or Secretary and two(2) Committee Member of the Society.
The positions of Captain,Vice-Captain, Secretary,Treasurer,Competition Secretary and Committee Members will be agreed and filled at the Annual General Meeting.

There is a bit more, but the point is that certain requirements for membership of other organisations follow the exact same methods. There is absolutely no difference between the Knights of St. Columba and Freemasonry, the only exception is that the Knights are fully endorsed by the Catholic Church.

hooradiation

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

In fact the thought of an elected head of state referring reverently to another as worshipful master is an affront to a free democracy.

I fail to see how.

nullzero

yekahS wrote: »

Why?

Why?
I'm still undecided to be honest. Why should I take the word of members of the Freemasons? Can I take it from the handful of Freemasons on this forum that every Freemason is a good honest person and that no groups of Freemasons have ever done anything wrong?

If some independent group did a comprehensive evaluation of all Freemasons and their finding proved the Freemasons here to be correct I'd accept it.
I don't think it's unfair for anyone to want more than the say so of members of the very organisation being discussed to prove it to be completely beyond reproach.

robroy1234

Well Null., there are good and bad people in every organisation, and freemasonry is no different. But, all of us masons writing in this forum do so on our own behalf and none of us speak for the Grand Lodge or for any other mason. My own opinion on freemasonry, is my own and that opinion may not be shared by other masons or other people. We can only tell people what we do not do, for instance, there is no satanic or devil worshipping going on, there is no interference in politics domestic or international, there is no dabbling in economic affairs of state, there is no discussion on religion, and there is no business deals going on. That is all from first hand knowledge and experience. It is up to other people to believe what they want to believe. I cannot force other people to accept what I say, but I will expect them to respect my right to be a member of any organisation that I feel fit to join. Here in Ireland freemasonry is rather a relaxed, enjoyable organisation...with the toasting, a tipple and some pretty bad, old jokes...

nullzero

robroy1234 wrote: »

Well Null., there are good and bad people in every organisation, and freemasonry is no different. But, all of us masons writing in this forum do so on our own behalf and none of us speak for the Grand Lodge or for any other mason. My own opinion on freemasonry, is my own and that opinion may not be shared by other masons or other people. We can only tell people what we do not do, for instance, there is no satanic or devil worshipping going on, there is no interference in politics domestic or international, there is no dabbling in economic affairs of state, there is no discussion on religion, and there is no business deals going on. That is all from first hand knowledge and experience. It is up to other people to believe what they want to believe. I cannot force other people to accept what I say, but I will expect them to respect my right to be a member of any organisation that I feel fit to join. Here in Ireland freemasonry is rather a relaxed, enjoyable organisation...with the toasting, a tipple and some pretty bad, old jokes...

Thats all fair enough.
But the point I was making is that we're being asked to accept what you're saying at face value.
You're most probably telling truth but as far as your anecdotal evidence being some sort of de facto version of how the organisation operates, I'm assuming that you can see how that could be seen as insufficient as proof of Freemasonry being 100% "clean" in the eyes of any objective observer.

Yitzhak Rabin

A money making group.

nullzero wrote: »

Why?
I'm still undecided to be honest. Why should I take the word of members of the Freemasons? Can I take it from the handful of Freemasons on this forum that every Freemason is a good honest person and that no groups of Freemasons have ever done anything wrong?

If some independent group did a comprehensive evaluation of all Freemasons and their finding proved the Freemasons here to be correct I'd accept it.
I don't think it's unfair for anyone to want more than the say so of members of the very organisation being discussed to prove it to be completely beyond reproach.

But thats not what I asked you.

No one here has claimed that every single freemason is a good person, or that no freemason/group of freemasons haven't done anything bad in the past. What would be disputed though is if someone did something bad, that it was because of freemasonry that they did it. Any organisation with millions of members past and present is going to have a couple of bad apples. Its a statistical certainty, and doesn't neccesarily reflect badly on the group as a whole.

What I asked you though is why you think the truth lies 'somewhere in the middle' of what real, knowledgeable actual freemasons say and what BB who, frankly, hasn't a clue, say?

robroy1234

Null - I could bestow all the chief virtues that believe in and cite famous freemasons as well as denounce a few of the bad ones, etc., but in all your vision of freemasonry will differ to mine. I have no way to explain to you how a fruit may taste, that is something to which you have to experience yourself. I have been involved in athletics for 25 years, I know what running a 4 minute mile is like, I can describe it and explain the physiology, but nothing can make you understand the feeling of running that fast than to do so yourself. Now as much as I have been competing in athletics there has always been the problem of drug taking in the sport, all because of a few athletes take drugs doesn't mean that every athlete does.
If we are to be looked at with suspicion, then why not look at other groups such as the Anglo-Irish Golden Circle, or the Knights of St. Columba. We are only treated as such because the Vatican denounced freemasonry in the 19th Century and that is because the Vatican sees itself as the only moral force on the planet. Since then books from people like The Brotherhood by Stephen Knight has painted a dark picture of us. Suffice it to say, the charges against us, in that we practice all sorts of satanic rituals etc., are extremely ridiculous and I know of no such practice.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

enda1 wrote: »

Doesn't sound so different to going to mass really. And they're all up to that too, the feckers!

So your saying that people like Aleister Crowley and Manly P Hall would have been regular visitors to their local parish?

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

hooradiation wrote: »

I fail to see how.

They are public servants. The answer to whom their "Master" should be is in their description.

(I'm aware that "master" is an ambiguous term - masterchef, masterclass etc)

robroy1234

Brown Bomber - do these public servants bow down to the Golf Club Captain and Secretary?
There is not one politician in Ireland that I know off who is in the freemasons, yet how many of them have Golf Club memberships, as well as bankers, businessmen, civil servants etc., Notice that every major Golf Club have conference facilities etc., More deals are made on the golf links than anywhere else. You have never even mentioned anything about Brian Cowen meeting and playing golf with Sean Fitzpatrick the day before he announced the bank guarantee scheme.

If you want me to admit to something that we are supposed to be doing - then you are barking up the wrong tree. I used to work in the civil service in Dublin long before becoming a Mason, and there has never been any contact or undue influence with the Grand Lodge of Ireland or any mason. But, my supervisor did share the same membership with other supervisors and ministers with certain golf clubs.

I have nothing against golf, but I too can build up quite a substantial conspiracy theory based upon membership of golf clubs - such as the K-Club, or St. Andrews.

Owen

Just to clarify - no man bows to another in Masonry.

robroy1234

Brown Bomber - what do you want us to admit to? That we practice devil worship? influence politicians? it doesn't matter what we say or do, you have a definate mindset to disregard it. It is up to you to decide for yourself whether you agree or not. I too can pull up all sort of nasty characters from different organisations to prove a point.

If I say that there is no such immoral, illegal or unethical things going on in the lodge, who are you to contradict me? I have not contradicted you in what you have written, but you have not given me the same respect.

hooradiation

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

They are public servants. The answer to whom their "Master" should be is in their description.

You claimed this is "an affront to a free democracy", the above does not explain the previous claim.

You seem to be making the mistake that if they refer to somoene as "Master" within a given context (this is assuming the original claim is true) then that extends to all contexts.

Would someone who refers to their partner as "Master" in the confines of the bedroom also be an affront to a free democracy if they were also a public servant or can you accept that people can and do compartmentalise their lives especially when it comes to the professional and private?

nullzero

yekahS wrote: »

But thats not what I asked you.

No one here has claimed that every single freemason is a good person, or that no freemason/group of freemasons haven't done anything bad in the past. What would be disputed though is if someone did something bad, that it was because of freemasonry that they did it. Any organisation with millions of members past and present is going to have a couple of bad apples. Its a statistical certainty, and doesn't neccesarily reflect badly on the group as a whole.

What I asked you though is why you think the truth lies 'somewhere in the middle' of what real, knowledgeable actual freemasons say and what BB who, frankly, hasn't a clue, say?

That's not what you asked me?
What did you ask me? What are the specifics I missed when your post read exactly and I quote; "Why?"?

You could have read my other posts where I qualified what I said but I can repeat it if you like.
We've had a few Freemasons here giving their opinions. I made the point that members of the organisation that is under scrutiny saying the organisation is in no way corrupt or corruptable isn't exactly the best form of evidence.
It's kind of like having a member of a political party saying that the party is completely above board when rumours of corruption abound.

Why should anyone take the word of a Freemason when they say Freemasonry isn't in any way corrupt when we wouldn't accept similar testimony from a member of any other organisation in similar circumstances as acceptable proof?

I don't have any vendetta aginst the masons, but I find it laughable to think that I should be expected to take a masons word for things on this subject when clearly the are not in any position to be in any way objective.

nullzero

robroy1234 wrote: »

Null - I could bestow all the chief virtues that believe in and cite famous freemasons as well as denounce a few of the bad ones, etc., but in all your vision of freemasonry will differ to mine. I have no way to explain to you how a fruit may taste, that is something to which you have to experience yourself. I have been involved in athletics for 25 years, I know what running a 4 minute mile is like, I can describe it and explain the physiology, but nothing can make you understand the feeling of running that fast than to do so yourself. Now as much as I have been competing in athletics there has always been the problem of drug taking in the sport, all because of a few athletes take drugs doesn't mean that every athlete does.
If we are to be looked at with suspicion, then why not look at other groups such as the Anglo-Irish Golden Circle, or the Knights of St. Columba. We are only treated as such because the Vatican denounced freemasonry in the 19th Century and that is because the Vatican sees itself as the only moral force on the planet. Since then books from people like The Brotherhood by Stephen Knight has painted a dark picture of us. Suffice it to say, the charges against us, in that we practice all sorts of satanic rituals etc., are extremely ridiculous and I know of no such practice.

You're missing the point in fine style.
I don't give a damn what you do in your meetings.
I made the point that it is not logical for anyone to simply take the word of a Freemason on these issues and leave it at that.
I really have no agenda against the Freemasons, I was simply making a point about the way the disccussion went in this thread where we have reached a point where we have Freemasons saying "Well I'm a member and that's not true".
We're discussing the possible workings of a secret society, by defenition any member here wouldn't say anything to incriminate themselves or the order. And whilst your comments are welcome and informative, no one in their right mind would accpet tham as conclusive proof.

All the best in the Freemasons, I'm sure you're a lovely guy and you're involved in all sorts of good works.

robroy1234

You could ask me whether I have taken performance enhancing drugs in athletics, I can answer No, and yet you can still not believe me. I don't know what you want us to say.

robroy1234

Null - the problem here is that whatever my personal opinion is on freemasonry, it does not represent what other freemasons or the organisation position. No Mason can state on behalf of the lodge on matters outside of freemasonry. Therefore politics, religion, economics, medicine etc., is not in the domain of freemasonry and therefore none of these subjects are mentioned.

You have all right in the world to question us, our motives and what we say, in as much as we can question other people in their chosen activities.

nullzero

robroy1234 wrote: »

You could ask me whether I have taken performance enhancing drugs in athletics, I can answer No, and yet you can still not believe me. I don't know what you want us to say.

Null - the problem here is that whatever my personal opinion is on freemasonry, it does not represent what other freemasons or the organisation position. No Mason can state on behalf of the lodge on matters outside of freemasonry. Therefore politics, religion, economics, medicine etc., is not in the domain of freemasonry and therefore none of these subjects are mentioned.

You have all right in the world to question us, our motives and what we say, in as much as we can question other people in their chosen activities.

I don't want you to say anything in particular.
I'm simply stating that the testimony of a Freemason in regards to a discussion about Freemasonry is useful, but ultimately isn't of much use if an objective decision is to be made on the issue.
You're too close to the organisation to be able to be unbiased.

Like I already said, I'm sure you're all probably up to nothing, I'm just highlighting how anyone reading this thread shouldn't simply take your word for it that the organisation is completely above board.

robroy1234

True, You can't take anyone's word for it, and yes I am very much close in the organisation, in the same way as you can't take a politician's word or a banker's. But, you do however have an unique situation here on this forum, in that you have a few masons who do not know each other stating pretty much the same thing. Now, I cannot talk on their behalf as that is not my place to do so, but what I can state is that there is no dodgy going-ons or dealings within the particular lodge that I am a member. I cannot vouch for anyother lodge in this country and I definately cannot say anything about other lodges in foreign countries.

I can only state quite categorically about my involvement in freemasonry, whether other people can interpret something different from what I tell them, that is entirely up to them. We do have a system in place that regulates the functions of each lodge throughout the country, and that is the working of the provincial lodges. Each provincial lodge have officers that visit the lodges, firstly for the representation of the provincial and grand lodge, and secondly to ensure that the lodges adhere to the laws, rules and regulations.

I am very much aware of what went on in the UK a few years ago, and certain events that went on in certain lodges and with certain members. The United Grand Lodge of England initiated a system to crackdown on any illegality, immoral, unethical behaviour by members and lodges. But, bear this in mind - even though we are all freemasons, the Grand Lodge of Ireland and all the lodges within its authority are separate and independent of the United Grand Lodge of England. So our system and governance is entirely different. The same applies to the US and to any other nation.

squod

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

I can only state quite categorically about my involvement in freemasonry, whether other people can interpret something different from what I tell them, that is entirely up to them. We do have a system in place that regulates the functions of each lodge throughout the country, and that is the working of the provincial lodges.

These include orange order lodges?

robroy1234

We have absolutely nothing to do with the Orange Lodge or any of its constituents. There is a tendency to confuse freemasonry with the orange lodge, that is because the orange order copied parts of freemasonry in very much the same way as Knights of St. Columba. The major differences include that freemasonry accepts men who believe in the Supreme Being, regardless of how one addresses that Supreme Being (God, Allah, Jehovah etc.,) whereas the orange order you have to be a certain type of protestant. In Freemasonry we obey and follow the laws of the land to which we reside in, and that we are loyal citizen to our country, the orange order is strictly a British Unionist institution. Freemasonry has always been aloof and distant from politics both national and international and will never interfere with politics, economics, medicine etc., whereas the orange order is a political entity with a political agenda.
There are many more differences and a few similarities, but personally I have no time or patience for such organisations as the orange order and their association with the troubles and violence.

Owen

squod wrote: »

These include orange order lodges?

Oh FFS, you're posting in these threads long enough to know they've nothing to do with us. Anyone can use the word Lodge. Lots of B&B's do around the country.

robroy1234

I think that is a perfectly reasonable question, considering the wording, and the regalia. The same would apply also to the Knights of St. Columba and other such organisations. We can only stipulate that we are not and never will be political organisation.

Owen

I don't think it's a reasonable question at all, Squod's been in far too many of these threads before to know the answer he was going to get to that question, in other words, he's trolling.

Yitzhak Rabin

A money making group.

nullzero wrote: »

That's not what you asked me?
What did you ask me? What are the specifics I missed when your post read exactly and I quote; "Why?"?

You could have read my other posts where I qualified what I said but I can repeat it if you like.
We've had a few Freemasons here giving their opinions. I made the point that members of the organisation that is under scrutiny saying the organisation is in no way corrupt or corruptable isn't exactly the best form of evidence.
It's kind of like having a member of a political party saying that the party is completely above board when rumours of corruption abound.

Why should anyone take the word of a Freemason when they say Freemasonry isn't in any way corrupt when we wouldn't accept similar testimony from a member of any other organisation in similar circumstances as acceptable proof?

I don't have any vendetta aginst the masons, but I find it laughable to think that I should be expected to take a masons word for things on this subject when clearly the are not in any position to be in any way objective.

You're still not answering the question.

I'll try and repeat it in a simpler way for you.

I understand that you don't want to accept that the freemasons on this thread are telling the truth. I'm not sure why, but you don't, fair enough.

Why would that then lead you to the conclusion that the truth about freemasonry lies somewhere between what the people who know what they are talking about say, and what BB says, that we are a racist, subversive terrorist organisation?

If you want me to make the question even more simple I can try.

Ellis Dee

A friend of mine (actually more a friend of my wife's) became a Mason a few years ago. It rather astonished me, because he is really cool, well-educated, speaks several languages, loves the good life, good food, culture and travel - and is about as gay as it gets. As if that wasn't enough, he's a Catholic to boot, at least nominally.:D

Hardened old atheist that I am, I couldn't figure out why he wanted to get involved with a crowd of religious nutbars, but what he has told me has since changed my opinion of the Masons quite a bit. It seems they are not at all denominational, because all they ask of members is that they believe in some kind of supreme deity - even a vague idea of a "Great Universal Spirit" would do, it seems. Indeed, my friend believes that even I - slightly further towards the provisional wing of atheism than even Richard Dawkins - might just about scrape in if I tried.:)

The members of his lodge (in London) include the usual 57 varieties of Christians, in addition to Muslims, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus and what are you having yourself ...

They recently put a lot of their efforts into collecting a stack of money to fund a new lifeboat after one was badly damaged.

In other words, I've revised my view of Freemasonry and now believe that what it's largely about is grown men taking part in childish (but fun) rituals, funny handshakes and a lot of fundraising for good causes.

Definitely nowhere near the head of my "must be exterminated" list!;)

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

yekahS wrote: »

and what BB says, that we are a racist, subversive terrorist organisation?.

Woah there yekahs - I said the KKK were "racist" The Illuminati were subversive and P-2 were terrorists.

Wolfe Tone

A money making group.

This has reminded me to go visit the lodge in Dublin, its supposed to be very interesting.

Yitzhak Rabin

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Woah there yekahs - I said the KKK were "racist" The Illuminati were subversive and P-2 were terrorists.

Yes, but you tried to make out that these groups are masons.

Yitzhak Rabin

A money making group.

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

This has reminded me to go visit the lodge in Dublin, its supposed to be very interesting.

Definitely worth a visit. Its a very interesting building.

You can take a virtual tour here

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

I don't think it's a reasonable question at all, Squod's been in far too many of these threads before to know the answer he was going to get to that question, in other words, he's trolling.

I can only speak for myself but Robroy has done far more than anyone to make me consider my position of masonry thus far. He seems to be able to see it from a non-masonic perspective. Anti-masonry, for want of a better word is almost as old as masonry itself so I am sure the charges placed against it's practictioners are found terribly obnoxious and tiresome by members especially if it is as claimed that masonry is based on tradition and morals. However, masons are supposed to be good men made better, right? I don't think the best way to correct any assumed misinformation is the hyper-sensitive, ultra-defensive, hysterical and aggressive attitude that's been on display here. To my eyes it only adds to the creeping doubts of fanatical masons and cult like devotion to the craft.

Robroy on the other hand seems more prepared to give the warts n' all version within the parameters of protecting the various secrets.

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

yekahS wrote: »

Yes, but you tried to make out that these groups are masons.

Well this is what I said. Quite the opposite in fact.

I'm not saying the Klan/Illuminati/P-2 are the same as regular masonry just that they are evidence of the dangers of freemasonry which is vulnerable to be used as a vehicle for these "violent racists" and so on.

Yitzhak Rabin

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Well this is what I said. Quite the opposite in fact.

Fair enough, charge withdrawn.

So I take it that you agree that freemasonry is a benign organisation, and a force for good?