The Freemasons

Torakx

Why not start your own "lodge".
Personally I refuse to be a part of a group, because I am too wrapped up in being myself.
But I dont see any reason why you cant start your own group.Well actually what do you need a group for to start with?
I mean an official group.Seems the ceremonies and rituals are not needed unless you want to control thoughts and motivations in some way.

The only reason I can think people join any group is to make social contacts to fullfill their lives/themselves.Which is perfectly normal.
So I say make a group based around something you really love.Poetry,boxing,flinging cats over fences etc.
Although a womens group capable of flinging cats has got to be full of high powered execs hehe.
Right brainers I believe orientate toward cats

Anyway on these secret societies, I think they do provide social contact and support.
Much like the cult I was brought up in and left years ago.
I see their purpose for people joining, I suspect thier intentions are not always for the best of mankind or their members.
So Im kind of against societies.
If I had one under my control, I would try to get everyone to learn to be with themselves and then set them all free haha.
Fly my pretties fly!

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Torakx wrote: »

I guess that depends on who you surround yourself with.
Since I escaped from my cave recently enough and put myself back into the world a bit more than I have the last year or two, Ive found most guys are headwreckers and I have to deal with all sorts of macho bull and childish stuff and over the years people latching on.
I find women more mature in many respects.
Could just be my right brain kicking in lol
But I love em
They dont latch on to me for a start, most seem happy to chat and chill out without any need to posture and big themselves up.

So to me a lodge full of guys is like the last place I would like to chill out in.
Would completely wreck my head to be honest.

Ah but to get a few hours alone in a masonic library would be fun!!

Yeah, I hear what you are saying. Horses for courses I suppose. I'm not saying that they are inferior just that in my experience I've found them to way more headwrecking - though that could be their "maturity" conflicting with my immaturity so I can appreciate the appeal of a refuge from them, though it's probably still not right.

Torakx

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Yeah, I hear what you are saying. Horses for courses I suppose. I'm not saying that they are inferior just that in my experience I've found them to way more headwrecking - though that could be their "maturity" conflicting with my immaturity.

Honestly sometimes I really do think its a great deal to do with left versus right brain.
A left brain female might wreck my head or just not get on with most women in general.
Im a right brained guy by about 65% at least and I get along with women very easy.
I get along with guys too, but they do weck my head more often than not.

Another one for the fabled offtopic subsection/thread...but...

I bet your a lefty BB

http://www.shamozzle.com/RightLeftBrainTest.html

http://www.wherecreativitygoestoschool.com/vancouver/left_right/rb_test.htm

You seem very logical, not so much prone to fantasy and tend to be fairly straight to the point.
You prefer dogs over cats if at all id say too

Also you said "I hear what you are saying" instead of " I see what you mean" NLP thing there.
The latter is a visual mind using right brain mostly I think.Not sure about the hearing part, but it says how you recieve information best.

ps all hocus pocus pseudo science ofc!

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

twas interesting. 71% Right (44% "fantasy orientated" & 0% "reality based" ) You were right on the cats/dogs though. Love dogs hate cats.

Absolam

A money making group.

eithneoneill wrote: »

Why do women have to be in separate Eastern Star lodges?
What is wrong with mixed lodges?
Where do they gay men and lesbians go?

Freemasonry is a fraternity, Eastern Star is a mixed order, but restricts male admissions to Master Masons. The Grand Orients and similar 'Masonic-like' bodies have mixed Ldoges. Gay men can join Freemasons, Eastern Star, Grand Orients, and Masonic-like bodies. Lesbian women can join any non male only organisations, so pretty much most of them bar regular Freemasonry.

eithneoneill wrote: »

The Grand Lodge does not seem to welcome LGBT people.
It looks like only The Grand Orient and the Droit Humain accept women in mix lodges, and welcome gay people who are out.
The Grand Lodge seem to prefer older white heterosexual men with money...

The Grand Lodge welcomes all men who fit the membership criteria, and sexuality is not a feature of the criteria. There are plenty of gay Freemasons, plenty of young Freemasons, and plenty of poor Freemasons. There are just no female Freemasons.

eithneoneill wrote: »

I can base it on the fact that then I applied I was told women were not good enough to be masons, and when I asked around I found a lot of former members who left because they could not mention their same-sex partners without silence falling around them.
And one of them who is asian send two requests to join: one as himself and one as white version of himself. Guess which request got a reply and which was lost in the post?
That is why I am looking for an alternative now that I am physically in Ireland.

Frankly, I just don't think that's true. No one I have ever met in Freemasonry has even offered the opinion that 'women aren't good enough to be masons', including the men and women I know would be answering the phone or attending the door at the Grand Lodge in Molesworth St. I think you're putting your own spin on the fact that women are not accepted as members. I'd be fascinated to know where you asked around to find all these gay former members? I know plenty of gay Freemasons, more than a couple of flambouyantly gay Freemasons, and they get along just fine. How exactly does an asian person send a request as a white version of himself? My own mother Lodge has at least seven different nationalities in it, including Asians, eastern Europeans, Africans, and English as well as a majority of irish. Again, race and nationality aren't an issue... One of the best features I find in Freemasonry is that almost every country in the world I visit, regardless of the local skin colour, I can visit a Lodge knowing I will be welcomed as a brother.

eithneoneill wrote: »

Freemasonry is NOT a fraternity. Elizabeth Saint Leger, a woman, was initiated by the Grand Lodge!!
Only the Grand Lodge thinks it should be.
The two other Irish orders accept women.

To clear up your confusion, Freemasonry is a fraternity, notwithstanding the fact that Elizabeth St Leger was initiated by a Lodge (not the Grand Lodge). The Grand Lodge of Ireland doesn't think Freemasonry should be a fraternity, it is the governing body of the fraternity that is Freemasonry in Ireland. The Grand Orients, Le Droit Humain etc etc are not part of Freemasonry, they are irregular, or Masonic-like bodies, with no communication or affiliation the the governing bodies of Freemasonry, which are the Grand Lodges. I hope that helps your understanding.

eithneoneill

A money making group.

Saying that "The Grand Orients, Le Droit Humain etc etc are not part of Freemasonry" shows that you are biggoted, because these two orders recognize the Grand Lodge members, and welcomes them! (Even if the reciprocal courtesy is not extended to them)

Absolam

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I know this isn't the most PC thing to say and I mean no offense but I have to be honest - but getting away from women would probably the single biggest selling point to freemasonry for me personally.

Either that or getting to go through their library (if they have libraries).

There's a pretty massive library in Molesworth St, and anyone can browse through it as long as they're invited in by a member. It's pretty boring though; about 95% Lodge minutes and records from the various metropolitan Lodges over the centuries. Almost all the CT books and exposes are there though; those and the menus from the annual Lodge Dinners 100 odd years ago are the most interesting things in there. They used to have some blow-out dinners back in the day!

Absolam

A money making group.

eithneoneill wrote: »

Saying that "The Grand Orients, Le Droit Humain etc etc are not part of Freemasonry" shows that you are biggoted, because these two orders recognize the Grand Lodge members, and welcomes them! (Even if the reciprocal courtesy is not extended to them)

Really? I think it shows I am being accurate. There is no bigotry in knowing that Freemasonry does not recognise the Grand Orients etc. it's just a fact. I've nothing against the Masonic-like organisations, and if the Grand Lodges ever choose to recognise them, they will be Masonic. But right now, they're not.

robroy1234

The reason that the Grand Lodge of Ireland does not recognize the Grand Orient is the same reason for the non recognition of the Grand Lodge of France, both have been engaged in politics which is strictly forbidden.

Personally I am open for women to form the Order of the Eastern Star under the Grand Lodge of Ireland, even under the Grand Orient would be dominated by men which would then defeat the whole purpose.

Absolam

A money making group.

I suspect there would be an issue with Eastern Star Lodges being formed under the Grand Lodge of Ireland. None of the Grand Lodges of Ireland, England, or Scotland recognise Eastern Star or co-Masonry as regular. If GLI were to incorporate Eastern Star it would run the risk of losing the recognition of Scotland and England, and I don't think the broad membership in Ireland would be happy with that. Whilst there have been quite a few visits from female co-Masons and Eastern Star members in Molesworth St over the last few years, who have given some very impressive addresses and presentations, none were permitted inside a Tyled Lodge, not even the main speaker at Summer Lodge last year.

eithneoneill

A money making group.

Absolam wrote: »

Really? I think it shows I am being accurate. There is no bigotry in knowing that Freemasonry does not recognise the Grand Orients etc. it's just a fact. I've nothing against the Masonic-like organisations, and if the Grand Lodges ever choose to recognise them, they will be Masonic. But right now, they're not.

Grand Orient and Droit Humain ARE Freemasonry too!
It is like a Catholic saying that Protestants are not Christian, just because they do not recognize them, and that they are Christian-like!
It simply shows that you have "picked a side".

I am open minded, and I see the three bodies as Freemasons.
And two of them do recognize the 3 as masonic bodies, and welcome members from the three bodies.
Only one does not reciprocate: the Grand Lodge.

Sounds to me like they are turning into a cult, who sees enemies in anyone with a slight disagreement.

The parallel with the Catholic Church is actually striking: traditionalists, a bit nationalist, favors older white men but pays lip service to diversity, does not welcome out gays but officially is OK with them, rejects women except in the home cooking diner and cookies.

Freemasonry has no reason not to accept women. The only reason they were not accepted originally is because they were not free citizens in society (they could not vote for instance).
Now they can vote! There is no valid reason for a true Freemasonry to reject them... ergo...

robroy1234

I do find that somewhat of a shame as there are many women who contribute to Freemasonry, such as helping with festive boards of various lodges, the masonic charities and with the various activities organized by different lodges. However I see no problem if Women want to go to the Grand Orient or the Le Droit Humain.

eithneoneill

A money making group.

robroy1234 wrote: »

I do find that somewhat of a shame as there are many women who contribute to Freemasonry, such as helping with festive boards of various lodges, the masonic charities and with the various activities organized by different lodges. However I see no problem if Women want to go to the Grand Orient or the Le Droit Humain.

I think women should stop contributing to the back-kitchen of the Grand Lodge to show them what they are missing, and all go to the Droit Humain and Grand Orient to show the men (especially when they are their husbands) that women are more than working tools.

robroy1234

Eithne - It has nothing to do with women or whether the Grand Orient and Le Droit Humain are recognized by the Grand Lodge of Ireland. The main criteria for non-recognition is whether a Grand Lodge or any other subordinate lodges and members have acted improperly such as getting the GL, lodges, lodge or members involved in political discussions and or involvement, or any criminal acts. The Grand Lodge of France with the Grand Orient and Le Droit Humain have in the past and present being involved politically. Criminal acts and behaviour such as committed by the P2 in Italy barred the Grand Lodge of Italy for a while.
While there will be members here in Ireland frown over the issue of Eastern Star and other masonic type bodies operating here in Ireland we have to be aware that Freemasonry forbids the discussion and involvement in politics, religion and trying to elicit business.

Absolam

A money making group.

eithneoneill wrote: »

Grand Orient and Droit Humain ARE Freemasonry too!

Not in the opinion of the majority of Freemasons, and since Freemasons are the only people responsible for Freemasonry, no other opinion really counts....

eithneoneill wrote: »

It is like a Catholic saying that Protestants are not Christian, just because they do not recognize them, and that they are Christian-like!
It simply shows that you have "picked a side".

Not really; Freemasonry is not a religion. It's a private club. You can't become a Freemason by saying you're a Freemason, you have to join the club. The Grand Orient and Droit Humain haven't joined the club, they just made a club that's quite similar.

eithneoneill wrote: »

I am open minded, and I see the three bodies as Freemasons.
And two of them do recognize the 3 as masonic bodies, and welcome members from the three bodies.
Only one does not reciprocate: the Grand Lodge.

. You're perfectly entitled to your perception, but with all due respect, you can perceive Jews as a kind of Christian, but it wouldn't make it so.

eithneoneill wrote: »

Sounds to me like they are turning into a cult, who sees enemies in anyone with a slight disagreement.
The parallel with the Catholic Church is actually striking: traditionalists, a bit nationalist, favors older white men but pays lip service to diversity, does not welcome out gays but officially is OK with them, rejects women except in the home cooking diner and cookies.

Sounds to me like you want to throw epiteths at some thing because you think it's something that you disagree with.
As for your comparison to the Catholic Church, well,it seems you're really stretching to describe both in terms you can disagree with.

eithneoneill wrote: »

Freemasonry has no reason not to accept women. The only reason they were not accepted originally is because they were not free citizens in society (they could not vote for instance).
Now they can vote! There is no valid reason for a true Freemasonry to reject them... ergo...

. There is a single reason for Freemasonry not to accept women; the members choose not to. If the majority of the membership decides to accept women, then the rules will change.

robroy1234

Women are not "used" in the manner that you state, I said that women "contribute" to Freemasonry a great deal. I only know of one wife who is interested in the Eastern Star, my wife has absolutely no interest in Freemasonry but does enjoy the dinner dances and social gatherings.

eithneoneill

A money making group.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Eithne - It has nothing to do with women or whether the Grand Orient and Le Droit Humain are recognized by the Grand Lodge of Ireland. The main criteria for non-recognition is whether a Grand Lodge or any other subordinate lodges and members have acted improperly such as getting the GL, lodges, lodge or members involved in political discussions and or involvement, or any criminal acts. The Grand Lodge of France with the Grand Orient and Le Droit Humain have in the past and present being involved politically. Criminal acts and behaviour such as committed by the P2 in Italy barred the Grand Lodge of Italy for a while.
While there will be members here in Ireland frown over the issue of Eastern Star and other masonic type bodies operating here in Ireland we have to be aware that Freemasonry forbids the discussion and involvement in politics, religion and trying to elicit business.

I could believe that if the GL was applying the concept of "Free mason in a Free lodge" by admitting women. There is no reason not to admit women but thinking they are not equally free and spiritually equals.
When they accept women as equal, in mixed lodges, not separate lodge-like kitchens, then they can mention their ethical concerns about politics and business.

It is not like the GL is not involved in politics! After all they are quite cosy with the Orange Order, which as we know is apolitical.

eithneoneill

A money making group.

Absolam wrote: »

Not in the opinion of the majority of Freemasons, and since Freemasons are the only people responsible for Freemasonry, no other opinion really counts....

And the Droit Humain and Grand Orient Freemasons's opinion is that women are equal to men.
if the majority of members of GL think women are not equal, that says a lot!

Absolam

A money making group.

robroy1234 wrote: »

I do find that somewhat of a shame as there are many women who contribute to Freemasonry, such as helping with festive boards of various lodges, the masonic charities and with the various activities organized by different lodges. However I see no problem if Women want to go to the Grand Orient or the Le Droit Humain.

I couldn't agree more. I think on the one hand, people are too quick to assume that because Freemasonry is a fraternity, there is no female involvement at all, which is a shame.

I also think that co-Masonry and the Grand Orients are more modern and catholic in their outlook which can't be a bad thing. It may be that some day these forms of Masonry will become the majority 'official' form of Freemasonry, and the traditional form will fade away, I just don't think that's likely any time soon.

robroy1234

Eithne - There is absolutely nothing cozy between the Orange Lodge and the Grand Lodge of Ireland, and some of us are not at all favourable to the Orange Order at all. The Orange Order is a political/religious organization and that both is unacceptable to Freemasonry. As I have stated before, the Grand Lodge of France, Grand Orient and Le Droit Humain have all been involved in political matters regardless of whether women were involved or not.

I suggest that you contact the Grand Orient - http://www.gmoirl.com/

Absolam

A money making group.

eithneoneill wrote: »

And the Droit Humain and Grand Orient Freemasons's opinion is that women are equal to men.
if the majority of members of GL think women are not equal, that says a lot!

Freemasonry does not espouse, or promote, the idea that women are in any way whatsoever not equal to men, so in that regard, is quite the same as the Grand Orients and Le Droit Humain.

getz

The puppet masters.

i notice another brother freemason has been arrested by the police on operation yewtree,[rolf harris] the hand shakes are not going to help them now,

Absolam

A money making group.

eithneoneill wrote: »

I could believe that if the GL was applying the concept of "Free mason in a Free lodge" by admitting women. There is no reason not to admit women but thinking they are not equally free and spiritually equals.
When they accept women as equal, in mixed lodges, not separate lodge-like kitchens, then they can mention their ethical concerns about politics and business.
It is not like the GL is not involved in politics! After all they are quite cosy with the Orange Order, which as we know is apolitical.

Again with respect... You're ascribing your own reasons as to why women are not admitted as Freemasons. There is one perfectly good reason why women would not be admitted; the majority of members choose not to.

The Grand Lodges don't ever mention their ethical concerns about politics because they never get involved in politics. I think you mean the Orange Order is political, not apolitical. Freemasonry is apolitical, which is one of the reasons it is not 'cosy' with the Orange Order.

robroy1234

Hello to Getz - our very English contributor - so you have anything pertaining to Ireland?

robroy1234

The report, Getz, states that an 82 year old man been arrested and questioned. Only you painfully try to make a connection. However as we state to you before - we are Irish and are Freemasons under the Grand Lodge of Ireland. We are not English and not English Freemasons.

Torakx

robroy1234 wrote: »

The report, Getz, states that an 82 year old man been arrested and questioned. Only you painfully try to make a connection. However as we state to you before - we are Irish and are Freemasons under the Grand Lodge of Ireland. We are not English and not English Freemasons.

Then make a thread on Irish Freemasons?

robroy1234

Rolf Harris is the man arrested - and sorry to say Getz...can't find any details about Rolf Harris being a Freemason.

No point looking at the David Icke website as we all know how ridiculous and lack of credibility...

robroy1234

Torakx - this is Ireland, this website forum is Irish, all the masons contributing to this forum are Irish masons. To ask me about English Freemasonry would be like me asking about your thoughts rituals, practices and beliefs of Mormonism.

eithneoneill

A money making group.

Absolam wrote: »

Freemasonry does not espouse, or promote, the idea that women are in any way whatsoever not equal to men, so in that regard, is quite the same as the Grand Orients and Le Droit Humain.

But the majority of these "regular" Freemasons think that women are not equal... and only their opinion matter...

I think that anyone who is looking for an authentic spiritual experience, between equals, all equals, really equals, will stay far from the GL where they are not welcome by "the majority" of members.

Absolam

A money making group.

eithneoneill wrote: »

But the majority of these "regular" Freemasons think that women are not equal... and only their opinion matter....

No that's just what you want to think we think. I am a regular Freemason, and I am quite certain that women are equal to men. I don't know any Freemasons who think differently.

eithneoneill wrote: »

I think that anyone who is looking for an authentic spiritual experience, between equals, all equals, really equals, will stay far from the GL where they are not welcome by "the majority" of members.

I think that anyone who is looking for an 'authentic' spiritual experience should probably join a religion.

eithneoneill

A money making group.

Absolam wrote: »

Again with respect... You're ascribing your own reasons as to why women are not admitted as Freemasons. There is one perfectly good reason why women would not be admitted; the majority of members choose not to.

The Grand Lodges don't ever mention their ethical concerns about politics because they never get involved in politics. I think you mean the Orange Order is political, not apolitical. Freemasonry is apolitical, which is one of the reasons it is not 'cosy' with the Orange Order.

Orangemen do visit the lodges in Ireland, and are welcome to.
They even sometimes get confused in the rituals, to the amusement of the Irish masons.

robroy1234

Eithne - don't know where you get the idea that Masons such as myself do not see women as equals., I personally have no problem at all with women getting involved. I mean considering that no organization in Ireland sees women as equals, the Women's IRFU Rugby squad won the 6 nations yet in the news it is always the men's team that matters. You will find that there are many of us who are very open minded and welcoming.

robroy1234

Orangemen do visit the lodges in Ireland, and are welcome to

Absolutely not. They are never welcome at all through our doors. The Orange Order like the Catenians model themselves on Freemasonry, but they are political and religious, whereas we are not.

Absolam

A money making group.

eithneoneill wrote: »

Orangemen do visit the lodges in Ireland, and are welcome to.
They even sometimes get confused in the rituals, to the amusement of the Irish masons.

No, Freemasons who are also Orangemen visit Lodges in Ireland, because they are Freemasons. Non-Masons are not permitted to visit Masonic Lodges, and Orangemen are not Masons.

eithneoneill

A money making group.

Absolam wrote: »

No, Freemasons who are also Orangemen visit Lodges in Ireland, because they are Freemasons. Non-Masons are not permitted to visit Masonic Lodges, and Orangemen are not Masons.

So dual membership is not an issue?
If a member of yours was found to be also a member of Grand Orient or Droit Humain, they would be expelled.

robroy1234

Politically, the Orange Order is strongly linked to unionism. The Order is sectarian, triumphalist and supremacist. As a Protestant society, non-Protestants cannot become members. Catholics, and those whose close relatives are Catholic, are banned from becoming members.

My late father was born and raised in Belfast and went through the boys brigade and the orange order, then he met my mother who came from Dublin, and he switched to Catholicism. The Orange Order and related groups treated my father and his family in Northern Ireland with absolute hatred and at times violence. Towards the end of his life he was in the Knights of St Columba and the Catenians. Whereas both the Catenians and Orange Order sought membership through a particular faith, and are political I prefer to be a member of an organization that is non-political, and open to all religions and races.

Personally I have no love at all for the Orange Order and abhor the sectarianism that they promote.

eithneoneill

A money making group.

Absolam wrote: »

No that's just what you want to think we think. I am a regular Freemason, and I am quite certain that women are equal to men. I don't know any Freemasons who think differently.

But the "majority of them", who you say think women are equal like you do, still think women cannot be Freemasons?
How come?

They majority thinks women are equal but the majority thinks they should not be Freemasons. And only their opinion matters. So why is that majority refusing access to women if they also think they are equal?

robroy1234

Eithne - there would be no point for one of our members being also a member of the Grand Orient as that would be like wanting to be a protestant and a catholic at the same time.

robroy1234

The question of such has never been raised in the Grand Lodge, primarily because of the lack of interest by women. Only one or two women that I know of have presented themselves, that would be like myself wanting to get into the ICA.

eithneoneill

A money making group.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Eithne - there would be no point for one of our members being also a member of the Grand Orient as that would be like wanting to be a protestant and a catholic at the same time.

But there would be a point for a Catholic bishop being an active and open commander in the IRA? (To replace Orange Order by something comparable...)

robroy1234

As for equality - I think that the Irish Women's rugby squad see themselves as equal to the Men's squad, but they will never get the same recognition, respect, adulation, financial rewards or doors open to them as the Men.

robroy1234

You know any Catholic Bishop being a commander of the IRA?

As for the Orange Order - no point in bringing them up anymore.

eithneoneill

A money making group.

robroy1234 wrote: »

The question of such has never been raised in the Grand Lodge, primarily because of the lack of interest by women. Only one or two women that I know of have presented themselves, that would be like myself wanting to get into the ICA.

Lack of interest of women?
So why are there so many interested in the Grand Orient and Droit Humain.
Grand Orient Lodge Wolfe Tone No.3 Cork is initiating their 4th woman soon.

There is an interest, but women are told by that "majority of masons who think women are equal to men" that they are not welcome, not equal enough: they need not apply.
So of course, what do you expect? They do not apply!
They turn to more modern-minded Freemasons...

robroy1234

I think that you should contact and join the Grand Orient.

eithneoneill

A money making group.

robroy1234 wrote: »

I think that you should contact and join the Grand Orient.

I am in touch with the Grand Orient and Droit Humain too.
I know where I am not welcome.
Just like I would not stand at the back of a Mosque because my husband thinks I am kind of equal but not worth the front seats.

A Freemasonry that rejects the worth of women is not going to survive another generation.

By the way, I wonder if the same-sex partners of gay members of the GL do bring their partners to socialize with the wives of the other "free" masons... In my lodge they will all be welcome to socialize and take part in the synbolic workings, because no human should be excluded from the Truth.

Penn

robroy1234, people are allowed to discuss the Freemason organisations of other countries in this thread if they wish to do so. You've pointed out the disconnect between the British and Irish ones, that's fine. But just as people here are allowed to discuss American politics even though this is an Irish forum with Irish members, they are allowed to discuss British Freemasons in this thread about Freemasons in general.

Telling people what they can and can't post is backseat modding. More of it will result in an infraction or ban.

Absolam

A money making group.

eithneoneill wrote: »

So dual membership is not an issue?
If a member of yours was found to be also a member of Grand Orient or Droit Humain, they would be expelled.

Neither politics or religion can be discussed in a Masonic Lodge; a members political and religious opinions are his own. So it's impossible to expel a member for their political or religious opinion when it cannot even be discussed.

Irregular organisations such as the Grand Orients and Droit Humain are not in amity with regular Freemasonry, and a Freemason who attends or visits them may be suspended or expelled. I would assume a Freemason who wishes to join one of these would do so because he feels they suit him better than regular Freemasonry. That's being the case, I doubt he would wish to be a member of both?

eithneoneill

A money making group.

Absolam wrote: »

Neither politics or religion can be discussed in a Masonic Lodge; a members political and religious opinions are his own. So it's impossible to expel a member for their political or religious opinion when it cannot even be discussed.

Irregular organisations such as the Grand Orients and Droit Humain are not in amity with regular Freemasonry, and a Freemason who attends or visits them may be suspended or expelled. I would assume a Freemason who wishes to join one of these would do so because he feels they suit him better than regular Freemasonry. That's being the case, I doubt he would wish to be a member of both?

That was my point: GL would expel a brother who goes against the "no women" landmark.
But GL have no issue with a member who is also a member of an Order heavily involved in modern politics, and possibly against some of your own brothers in the North.

I assume that a Lodge, under GL, that would initiate a woman would be instantly dismissed.

So the question remains: why do the "majority of Freemasons under GL" feel it to be unMasonic to initiate a woman?
Why were these two women who applied rejected by that majority who "thinks women are equal" (as long as they don't ask to be)

Absolam

A money making group.

eithneoneill wrote: »

But the "majority of them", who you say think women are equal like you do, still think women cannot be Freemasons?
How come?

Because Freemasonry is a fraternity, and a fraternity by definition does not admit women.

eithneoneill wrote: »

They majority thinks women are equal but the majority thinks they should not be Freemasons. And only their opinion matters. So why is that majority refusing access to women if they also think they are equal?

Well then, taking the fact that women are equal to men as a given, why should we admit women?

eithneoneill wrote: »

There is an interest, but women are told by that "majority of masons who think women are equal to men" that they are not welcome, not equal enough: they need not apply.

Repeating a lie doesn't make it true. You want this to be an equality issue; it isn't. Women are not permitted to be Freemasons because it is a fraternity. It is a fraternity because the members choose to keep it that way. The members can change their minds, but they haven't so far.

eithneoneill wrote: »

I am in touch with the Grand Orient and Droit Humain too. I know where I am not welcome. Just like I would not stand at the back of a Mosque because my husband thinks I am kind of equal but not worth the front seats. A Freemasonry that rejects the worth of women is not going to survive another generation. By the way, I wonder if the same-sex partners of gay members of the GL do bring their partners to socialize with the wives of the other "free" masons... In my lodge they will all be welcome to socialize and take part in the synbolic workings, because no human should be excluded from the Truth.

I honestly wish you the best of luck with your lodge, and whatever you think the truth is, I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoy Freemasonry.
As to your question; I've met some of my gay brothers partners at Masonic gatherings, as has my wife. I think one or two of them may become Freemasons themselves in the next year or so, so I reckon they felt they were made welcome.

eithneoneill wrote: »

That was my point: GL would expel a brother who goes against the "no women" landmark. But GL have no issue with a member who is also a member of an Order heavily involved in modern politics, and possibly against some of your own brothers in the North.

No, Grand Lodge would expel a brother who attends a Masonic styled organisation not in amity with Grand Lodge, regardless of whether or not it admitted women.

eithneoneill wrote: »

I assume that a Lodge, under GL, that would initiate a woman would be instantly dismissed.

. A Lodge would not be permitted to initiate a woman into the fraternity in the first place, although, as you yourself have pointed out, this has famously happened once in the past.

eithneoneill wrote: »

So the question remains: why do the "majority of Freemasons under GL" feel it to be unMasonic to initiate a woman?
Why were these two women who applied rejected by that majority who "thinks women are equal" (as long as they don't ask to be)

the answer is still the same; Freemasonry is a fraternity. Women who are entirely equal to men will still be women, and just like men cannot join sororities, women cannot join fraternities.

eithneoneill

A money making group.

But Absolam, only GL sees Freemasonry as a male-only Fraternity.
Nothing in Freemasonry, apart from a macho tradition, makes it a fraternity.

Do you think that women should be excluded from Liberty Equality Fraternity on a grammatical point?
Do you think that if a woman had been first on the moon, it would not have been a leap for "mankind"?

It's not because the language can be sexist that we have to be.
Fraternity is a universal concept, not limited to grammatical gender, from the greek φράτηρ, meaning "Member of a community".

Not extending fraternal relationships to women, based on an outdated divide between fraternities and sororities is antiquated and not very enlightened...

And the fact that Elizabeth St. Leger, The Lady Freemason, was initiated in Ireland and is recognized and even celebrated by the GL, suggests that she was part of that Fraternity without being a man...