The Freemasons

squod

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Absolam wrote: »

You've already had your arguments knocked back numerous times..

We had a discussion about freemasonry before. Turns out I was right. Coming back and denying it, hoping someone forgot?

robroy1234 wrote: »

Squod,
Your views in whatever they are have no effect or bearing on my own personal choices and whatever affliations I choose to have.

Not here to change your mind. Too late for that!

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Torakx wrote: »

I see masons as the counter to the big religious organisations.

I disagree. I see them as rival religious organisation.

I'd like the views of the resident freemasons on this, especially the regalia, colours, badges and so on. These photos were included in his manifesto and his facebook page set up specifically to be used by the media:

squod

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Brown Bomber wrote: »

I disagree. I see them as rival religious organisation.

The religious opposition I would have thought.

Torakx

religious: relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity.

Ok maybe they are religious.
I just see them as the new age religion so to speak if i must admit its a religion.
I tend to think through history they have been against the larger churches that ran countries and caused wars and have been able to replace them with their own 21st century form of the old religions.

Since humans have evolved past believing a man(priest) is able to communicate with god etc at least alot of humans,i can see more and more a gap appearing and needing to be filled.

I think freemasonry is trying to achieve this through changing society and culture to suit that end and regain the control that the churches used to have over society, but obviously covertly as we in general have progressed passed,"do as we say or god will kill you" type of coercion.

The new bible is television, propoganda, terrorism, restrictions and social programming.

hooradiation

A money making group.

Richard tea wrote: »

Oh come on. Rob, Absolam I bet you wish freemason threads could be locked and deleted. Prehaps you could request this from the mods;)

Prehaps you should both stay away from freemason threads

I would have though having actual Freemasons on a thread about the Freemasons would be a good thing...

Torakx

It is if you can garner information by what they are not saying lol
And then you would probably need them to be of the 33rd degree.
Even then it could be said those masons are more or less innocent of any future plans towards a global governing body.
It may just be there is an illuminatti type inner group hiding amongst masons.
So unless you one of them,i dont really expect to get much tasty gossip

Richard tea

A group to make contacts.

hooradiation wrote: »

I would have though having actual Freemasons on a thread about the Freemasons would be a good thing...

It has its pros and cons

Absolam

A money making group.

squod wrote: »

We had a discussion about freemasonry before. Turns out I was right. Coming back and denying it, hoping someone forgot?

I recall the discussion, but can't seem to find any evidence of you being right... perhaps someone deleted it in order to preserve the conspiracy
As I recall you were unable to back up your assertions that Freemasonry is a satanic cult?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I disagree. I see them as rival religious organisation. I'd like the views of the resident freemasons on this, especially the regalia, colours, badges and so on. These photos were included in his manifesto and his facebook page set up specifically to be used by the media

BB you've discussed your idea of Freemasonry as a religion ad nauseum; it just doesn't wash. Freemasons around the world remain faithful members of disparate religions at the same time as being Freemasons; what religion allows its' members to worship other gods in other faiths?
And... (I really want you to know this is killing me BB) you may have found a nugget of truth in all your craziness. It does appear that Anders Breivik was a Freemason. The Sovereign Grand Master of the Norwegian Order of Freemasons has posted the following notice on their website:
"I am appalled by the horrible atrocity that was committed in the government district and at the Utøya island, says the Sovereign Grand Master of the Norwegian Order of Freemasons, Ivar A. Skar.
We are filled with mourning and compassion for those who have been affected and their relatives.
It has appeared in the media that the accused has been a member of the Norwegian Order of Freemasons.
He has now been excluded - the exclusion immediately effective.
The exclusion reflects that the acts he is accused of having carried out, and the values that appear to have motivated them, are completely incompatible with what we stand for as an Order.
We build our activity on Christian and humanistic values and want our members to contribute to the promotion of charity, peace and goodness among all people.
The police will of course get all the help and information we can give to contribute to the investigation."
http://www.frimurer.no/

I'm sure that'll kick off all sorts... but apparently it's true.

Torakx; the majority of Freemasons are religious, belief in a divine being is a prerequisite for joining. That tends to exclude athiests, and whilst some agnostics are comfortable with it, the majority of Freemasons are members of mainstream monotheistic faiths.

squod

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

I recall the discussion, but can't seem to find any evidence of you being right... perhaps someone deleted it in order to preserve the conspiracy
As I recall you were unable to back up your assertions that Freemasonry is a satanic cult?

If you say so. Not my soul on the line.

Absolam wrote: »

.................Christian and humanistic values.........

Enough !

Absolam

A money making group.

Richard tea wrote: »

Oh come on. Rob, Absolam I bet you wish freemason threads could be locked and deleted. Prehaps you could request this from the mods;) Prehaps you should both stay away from freemason threads

If we wanted that we'd just do it, we are the New World Order running everything from the shadows after all

Richard tea wrote: »

It has its pros and cons

I apologise, I know we sometimes bring the flights of fantasy back to earth, and that's no fun for the CTers, but I like being able to answer questions from people with a genuine interest in or curiosity about Freemasonry. And baiting the crazies can be fun too.

Torakx

Im curious do you have any Jehovahs witnesses in any freemason orders around the world?
I wonder also do you have members from cults like scientology or similar groups too.
And looking at the definition for religious it seems freemasons religiously try to attain certain goals.

religious: relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity.
Maybe they are religious in nature
Infact to be a member you must believe in a supreme being,which sounds kind of close to a deity.

oh heres diety definition: the rank or essential nature of a god : divinity b capitalized : god 1, supreme being. 2. : a god or goddess.

Absolam

A money making group.

I would say yes we almost certainly have members who are Jehovahs Witnesses, probably the majority of Freemasons around the world would be members of one of the many Christian cults, although there are plenty from other religions too. But Scientologists seem unlikely since I don't think they profess a belief in a supreme (therefore arguably divine) being?

Torakx

Hmm its more of a personal interest and Ct of my own,but i would love to find out if there is any jehovahs witnesses involved at the moment with any lodge.
I believe if they were it would be a major priority to keep it secret,hence the curiosity lol
Their background with Charles Taze Russell(founder) and the freemasons link is contraversial and strongly denied(more like ignored/unknown) within the organisation.
So to be involved with freemasons would be worthy of ex communication im pretty sure.

I also find it interesting that a society or organisation that prides itself on being enlightened insists all its members believe in the divine or a supreme being that may or may not exist.
I read a big book about freemasons history and beliefs from an outsiders perspective but i cant remember why this restriction is in place.

Absolam

A money making group.

Well, I don't think it would be a priority for the Freemasons to keep it a secret; we don't record the religious affiliation of any member. I'm guessing if a Jehovahs Witness wanted to keep his membership of the Freemasons secret from his church he'd feel there's some need for that?

I don't think Freemasonry prides itself on being enlightened, but maybe on helping members as they find their own path to enlightenment?

I suppose (my own thoughts here) the requirement exists for two reasons;

1) Historical. There was a time when only an idiot would think there wasn't some sort of god. We have quite a lot of things in Freemasonry simply because they always have been... That said there are 'variations' of Freemasonry that don't require belief in a supreme being. And admit women. But they're not proper Freemasons of course

2) Basic premise. If you can't accept that somewhere there is probably something so far beyond your ability to understand as to be essentially a god, then how can you have sufficient imagination to explore and realise your own true potential? That could probably be expressed much better but I think the essential principle boils down to, if you think you're as good as it gets, what's the point in us trying to help you be better?

robroy1234

The purpose of any forum is a frank and open discussion, but that is only possible if certain people like Squod would respect and honour what others say. He like anyone else is entitled to disagree, but to continuously to berate us with the same arguments over and over again indicates an unwillingness to respect other people.

squod

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

The purpose of any forum is a frank and open discussion, but that is only possible if certain people like Squod would respect and honour what others say. He like anyone else is entitled to disagree, but to continuously to berate us with the same arguments over and over again indicates an unwillingness to respect other people.

Right back at ye! It's your unwillingness to respect other people that coming across! If you don't want me to reply then don't post or at least don't quote me.

If you expect me not to respond and let you put your point across unchallenged then think again. We all have the right to reply. Carrying on like I should not challenge your words, that's not gonna happen.

Torakx

I still have some very active posters on ignore and i dont have any issues.

squod

A group to make contacts.

Have a few on meself Torakx.

hooradiation

A money making group.

At the risk of being off topic -
I will never comprehend the reasoning behind putting someone on ignore. It's monumentally childish and toxic to the very idea of a discussion board.

squod

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hooradiation wrote: »

At the risk of being off topic -
I will never comprehend the reasoning behind putting someone on ignore. It's monumentally childish and toxic to the very idea of a discussion board.

Some people on here have quite toxic and monumentally childish views. Ignore is there for a reason.

hooradiation

A money making group.

squod wrote: »

Some people on here have quite toxic and monumentally childish views. Ignore is there for a reason.

A terrible reason.
I have no idea how you can claim to have a discussion on a subject when you're actively ignoring a portion of the participants.

The backfire effect is a powerful phenomenon indeed.

squod

A group to make contacts.

Could have a point there, all I can say is I've tried with most of them.

Absolam

A money making group.

I don't mind if you ignore me squod

Brown Bomber

A group to make contacts.

Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion and its teachings are instruction in religion. For here are inculcated disinterestedness, affection, toleration, devolvedness, patriotism, truth, a generous sympathy with those who suffer and mourn, pity for the fallen, mercy for the erring, relief for those in want, Faith, Hope, Charity. Here we meet as brethren to learn to know and love each other. Here we greet each other gladly, are lenient to each other’s faults, regardful of each other’s feelings, ready to relieve each other’s wants," [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, Sans]Albert Pike, Morals & Dogma, pp. 213-214. [/FONT]

But anyway. Could a a mason give a comment on mass-murderer Breitvik's masonic attire? Even the symbolism of the angle/direction of the way he is standing.

The organisation he claims to represent are called the "Judiciar Knights". His short film is called Knight Templar He included a photo of himself in masonic regalia in his manifesto - so clearly there is a masonic connection. My speculation would be that his philosemitism and ideological elitism/supremacism would be linked to masonry.

What is there in the masonic teachings/libraries on the Knights Templars that could encourage such horror?

Torakx

Well hooradation some on this forum purposefully try to derail threads with abusive, degrading or irrelevant comments.
Imagine a conspiracy theorist wondering about some government types being paid to post on forums to ruin threads.
These are the types that could fill that role quite easily.
They are here to argue and derail... nothing else.
So it isnt ignorant to ignore these ones.
When i see them quoted, every single time it is a smart arse comment to start an arguement.
So either they are paid to ruin certain threads here (doubtfull) or have some ego/self image issues.
In these cases ignore is a blessing!

By the way do the irish masons have a piece of the whitehouse cornerstone or any cornerstones on display ?
Seen an american documentary which showed a piece of a corner stone placed in a cabinet and rumour has it more pieces were sent to other lodges around the world.

saatana

robroy1234 wrote: »

I am in no way associated with any right-wing political organisation, or any political organisation whatsoever, nor am I a religious fanatic. The rantings that the fella was going on about runs contrary not only to freemasonry, but to any moral and ethical fibre in society. But, if you feel that you want to tar us all with the same brush that is entirely up to you. But, whatever made this fella do such a thing - it wasn't at all masonic.

That was the point I was making. Just becasue he is a Freemason doesn't mean he was acting as a Freemason when he did those terrible deeds. So don't tar all Freemasons with the same brush just because of him. Adopt the same policy when some Muslims commit atrocities of which the great majority of their co-religionists would totally disapprove.

Jesus Wept

A money making group.

Still have no idea what this is all about.

Torakx

Conspiracy:
the act of conspiring.
2. an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot.

3. a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government.

Freemasons are renowned for their secrecy and the expression "the hidden hand" which is a gesture supposedly used to signal membership in some cases.
The recruit alot of powerfull people involved in big bussiness and politics,government officials at all levels.
So put all that together and you have the basis for alot of conspiracy theories.

getz

The puppet masters.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

But anyway. Could a a mason give a comment on mass-murderer Breitvik's masonic attire? Even the symbolism of the angle/direction of the way he is standing.

The organisation he claims to represent are called the "Judiciar Knights". His short film is called Knight Templar He included a photo of himself in masonic regalia in his manifesto - so clearly there is a masonic connection. My speculation would be that his philosemitism and ideological elitism/supremacism would be linked to masonry.

What is there in the masonic teachings/libraries on the Knights Templars that could encourage such horror?

i dont think the knights templer,are a good template,they were hardly a example to look up to,ie encouraged even forced to practice homosexuality, spit on the cross,never wash,and practiced pagonism.but on second thoughts,

Absolam

A money making group.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

But anyway. Could a a mason give a comment on mass-murderer Breitvik's masonic attire? Even the symbolism of the angle/direction of the way he is standing. The organisation he claims to represent are called the "Judiciar Knights". His short film is called Knight Templar He included a photo of himself in masonic regalia in his manifesto - so clearly there is a masonic connection. My speculation would be that his philosemitism and ideological elitism/supremacism would be linked to masonry.What is there in the masonic teachings/libraries on the Knights Templars that could encourage such horror?

As per my post #209; he was a Freemason, hence the picture in the blue collar and apron. The military stlye outfit is not Masonic. Philosemitism and ideological elitism/supremacism are not linked to masonry. Why would you imagine that there could possibly be anything in the masonic teachings/libraries on the Knights Templars that could in any way enourage anyone to do the things this man did?

Torakx wrote: »

By the way do the irish masons have a piece of the whitehouse cornerstone or any cornerstones on display ?
Seen an american documentary which showed a piece of a corner stone placed in a cabinet and rumour has it more pieces were sent to other lodges around the world.

I know George Washingstone laid the cornerstone of of the White House in his Masonic apron, but I presume it's still there.. you'd have to tear down the building to get it out? The laying of the cornerstone of a building is given great significance in Freemasonry, but I've never heard of lodges keeping cornerstones of other buildings.

Torakx wrote: »

Freemasons are renowned for their secrecy and the expression "the hidden hand" which is a gesture supposedly used to signal membership in some cases. The recruit alot of powerfull people involved in big bussiness and politics,government officials at all levels.
So put all that together and you have the basis for alot of conspiracy theories.

I think being renowned for secrecy is a bit of an oxymoron, but anyways... "the hidden hand" is a BB thing, not a Masonic thing. Freemasonry does not really recruit (most people ask to join rather than vice versa), but does accept members from all walks of life; there are not a disproportionate amount of people "involved in big business and politics, or government officials" in the order. In fact, compared to the average golf club membership, these people would certainly be underrepresented in Freemasonry.

getz wrote: »

i dont think the knights templer,are a good template,they were hardly a example to look up to,ie encouraged even forced to practice homosexuality, spit on the cross,never wash,and practiced pagonism.but on second thoughts,

Surely you mean "were accused of being encouraged even forced to practice homosexuality, spit on the cross,never wash,and practice paganism, but were exonerated of all these charges"?

squod

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

Surely you mean "were accused of being encouraged even forced to practice homosexuality, spit on the cross,never wash,and practice paganism, but were exonerated of all these charges"?

Exonerated of practising paganism? WTF. By who?

Absolam

A money making group.

Pope Clement absolved the Order of the accusations against it in 1308, in the Chinon Parchment, republished by the Vatican in 2007 http://www.archiviosegretovaticano.va/en/exemplaria-praetiosa-2/.

Or, if you prefer the Wiki:
The papal process started by Pope Clement V, to investigate both the Order as a whole and its members individually found virtually no knights guilty of heresy outside of France. Fifty-four knights were executed in France by French authorities as relapsed heretics after denying their original testimonies before the papal commission; these executions were motivated by Philip's desire to prevent Templars from mounting an effective defence of the Order. It failed miserably, as many members testified against the charges of heresy in the ensuing papal investigation. Despite the poor defense of the Order, when the papal commission ended its proceedings on June 5, 1311, it found no evidence that the Order itself held heretical doctrines, or used a "secret rule" apart from the Latin and French rules. On October 16, 1311, at the General Council of Vienne held in Dauphiné, the council voted for the maintenance of the Order. But on March 22, 1312, Clement V promulgated the bull Vox in excelsis in which he stated that although there was not sufficient reason to condemn the Order, for the common good, the hatred of the Order by Philip IV, the scandal brought about by their trial, and the likely dilapidation of the Order that would result from the trial, the Order was to be suppressed by the pope’s authority over it. But the order explicitly stated that dissolution was enacted, "with a sad heart, not by definitive sentence, but by apostolic provision."

studiorat

Absolam wrote: »

2) Basic premise. If you can't accept that somewhere there is probably something so far beyond your ability to understand as to be essentially a god, then how can you have sufficient imagination to explore and realise your own true potential? That could probably be expressed much better but I think the essential principle boils down to, if you think you're as good as it gets, what's the point in us trying to help you be better?

How about, if you think God is as good as it gets, how can you have sufficient imagination to explore and realise your potential?

I think you'll find atheism became a world view in the same "enlightenment" that the freemasons seem to romantisise. With it's roots in Greek philosophy.

Anyway just an observation, you're already being barraged with comments and questions. Excellent job, carry on...

Absolam

A money making group.

Well, if you allow that a god is generally omnnipotent & omniscient, then that's practically the definition of as good as it gets. But it doesn't stretch too well; the intent is not to turn men into gods, but good men into better men, and I've no doubt there are plenty of good men who are athiests. There are Masonic-like organisations who accept athiests (the Grand Orient of France for one), but 'mainstream' Freemasonry doesn't. Maybe a belief in a deity, a sense of a 'higher power' is helpful in absorbing the lessons of Freemasonry, maybe Freemasonry could be just as successful without that entry criterion. As long as the majority of Freemasons don't choose to change it, it will remain a requirement of joining though.

squod

A group to make contacts.

Had to google both words paganism, heresy. They have similar meanings. Either way not surprised that in 1303 that kind of behaviour was acceptable. Kill as many as you have to to get control of the temple mount.
Do what Herod did, in other words.

Absolam

A money making group.

I would see heresy and paganism as two very different things, but since no one ever claimed that the Knights Templar practiced paganism, I assumed Getz really meant idolatry or heresy.

hiram

A money making group.

Good Evening,

As a Mason Based in Mayo, I offer my services to answer any questions related to Freemasonry in as frank a manner as possible, no offence Absolum, but I think you have had the floor for far too long, so for a bit of balance in the debate, and since there doesnt seem to be any other actual Masons joining the debate, here goes!!

Absolam

A money making group.

Work away

Lab_Mouse

A money making group.

hiram wrote: »

Good Evening,

As a Mason Based in Mayo, I offer my services to answer any questions related to Freemasonry in as frank a manner as possible, no offence Absolum, but I think you have had the floor for far too long, so for a bit of balance in the debate, and since there doesnt seem to be any other actual Masons joining the debate, here goes!!

blue or yellow M&M's?

studiorat

hiram wrote: »

Good Evening,

As a Mason Based in Mayo, I offer my services to answer any questions related to Freemasonry in as frank a manner as possible, no offence Absolum, but I think you have had the floor for far too long, so for a bit of balance in the debate, and since there doesnt seem to be any other actual Masons joining the debate, here goes!!

Welcome to the forum hiram. Left or right trouser leg rolled up?

robroy1234

Hiram. I am based in Mayo as well, where about are you?

According to some on this forum, we are part of a conspiracy to take over the world, we practice satanic and pagan rituals, and recruit politicians and power brokers... now there is a spurious rumour that the fella in Norway is a mason because he is wearing masonic regalia...then again there is a picture of him in an US Marine uniform so therefore he is also a US marine....

As for the "Knights Templars" there is some sort of fixation on these Knights - but they haven't been in existence as a body since 1307, so it is stretching it far for anyone to claim to be a Templar Knight, but seeing that when the Templars were disbanded some of them went into the Knights of Malta - so look out for those people who have had first aid training...

hiram

A money making group.

Lab_Mouse wrote: »

blue or yellow M&M's?

I prefer the Blue, it kind of fits the bill, shall we say!!:D

hiram

A money making group.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Hiram. I am based in Mayo as well, where about are you?

According to some on this forum, we are part of a conspiracy to take over the world, we practice satanic and pagan rituals, and recruit politicians and power brokers... now there is a spurious rumour that the fella in Norway is a mason because he is wearing masonic regalia...then again there is a picture of him in an US Marine uniform so therefore he is also a US marine....

As for the "Knights Templars" there is some sort of fixation on these Knights - but they haven't been in existence as a body since 1307, so it is stretching it far for anyone to claim to be a Templar Knight, but seeing that when the Templars were disbanded some of them went into the Knights of Malta - so look out for those people who have had first aid training...

Actually, most of the Templar Properties went into the hands of the Hospitalliers, after a long while. A few of the Templars ended up in Scotland supporting the Stuart Bloodline, and then after a period of time, William Sinclair became the self proclaimed master of the Templars in Scotland. Nowadays, the Templars who practice in Ireland dont answer to Grand Lodge , but to the Mark Masons. They are a totally different entity to the Original Templars. You do need to be a Master Mason to progress to the Templars, but it takes a long time, and lots of dedication. Try googling Freemasons Hall Dublin to see some great Pictures of the Templar Room in Molesworth Street as a matter of interest
http://www.glowimages.com.mx/imagedetails/13716158/image_of_1804345.Knights%20Templar%20Chapel%20Freemasons%20acute%20Hall%20Molesworth%20Street%20Dublin%20Co%20Dublin%20Ireland.html

robroy1234

Hiram,

I may know your mother. What is her number?

Rob

hiram

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robroy1234 wrote: »

Hiram,

I may know your mother. What is her number?

Rob

Rob, I was just about to explain that my mother is dead, untill I realised that you probably mean, i hope for your sake, my Mother Lodge Number. I'd rather not say, to be honest, but lets just say that Its in North Connacht. I actually have a fair Idea who you are, educated guess and all that, so, hope you are well. Have you been to St Nicholas's Church in Galway by the way?? Very Interesting stuff hidden in there!!

hiram

A money making group.

studiorat wrote: »

Welcome to the forum hiram. Left or right trouser leg rolled up?

I went in with both legs rolled up....the lodge was flooded!!;)

Penn

Lads, please try to keep the personal stuff to PM. Thanks.

robroy1234

Barrington - the question "I know your mother, whats her number?" isn't at all personal and Hiram understands what I meant - especially when I believe that we have the same mother.

The term applies to one's mother lodge and the number refers to the number in which the lodge is registered. We refer to the name of the lodge followed by the number. I do apologise for any misunderstanding this may have caused.

Hiram, I haven't been to St. Nicholas' for a while, but I did visit the castle and museum in Limerick. There are very interesting artifacts relating to the stone masons guilds and across the road from there is the Masonic Lodge.

hiram

A money making group.

Barrington wrote: »

Lads, please try to keep the personal stuff to PM. Thanks.

Im afraid you walked into that old joke Barrington!! A classic:D

robroy1234

Hiram, if I am not mistaken, if it wasn't for certain differences and lack of growth - I think that you would have been interested in the FreeGardeners as well. I do have pictures from St. Nicholas in Galway....I know that you are very well in-tuned.
Take care and see you at the next meeting.

Rob