The Freemasons

johnnyskeleton

The puppet masters.

hiram wrote:

Good Evening,

As a Mason Based in Mayo, I offer my services to answer any questions related to Freemasonry in as frank a manner as possible, no offence Absolum, but I think you have had the floor for far too long, so for a bit of balance in the debate, and since there doesnt seem to be any other actual Masons joining the debate, here goes!!

What do freemasons actually do?

It says here that they can't talk about politics or religion, so what is the unifying topic of interest and/or what would be discussed on a typical saturday night down the old lodge?

robroy1234

We normally have a ritual and a ceremony if needed, the meeting itself is rather humdrum, and yes - no politics or religion can be discussed before, during or after meetings. We never meet on a Saturday or Sunday.

johnnyskeleton

The puppet masters.

robroy1234 wrote: »

We normally have a ritual and a ceremony if needed, the meeting itself is rather humdrum, and yes - no politics or religion can be discussed before, during or after meetings. We never meet on a Saturday or Sunday.

So Freemasons meet for the purposes of what exactly? Discussing the last meeting? Organising the next meeting?

robroy1234

To find out one has to join...

hiram

A money making group.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

So Freemasons meet for the purposes of what exactly? Discussing the last meeting? Organising the next meeting?

Hi Johnny,

Yep, like any meeting, they are called the minutes!!, But Seriously, there is a lot, lot more than that. Most of the people who join "get it", it you know what I mean. Its serious stuff, despit what detractors say. Isnt it funny that those who diss Freemasonry have never set foot inside a Lodge before?? You would be very, very surprised who you could meet in Lodges. Once you go through the main degrees, then the fun starts....and its gets interesting. Very Interesting. But, to use the usual cliche, ya never know unless you go!! There are over 55,000 Masons on this Island and it is growing rapidly. If you are interested in finding out more, pop into the Grand Lodge in Molesworth Street, where there is a cool Museum open to the Public.

johnnyskeleton

The puppet masters.

hiram wrote: »

Hi Johnny,

Yep, like any meeting, they are called the minutes!!, But Seriously, there is a lot, lot more than that. Most of the people who join "get it", it you know what I mean. Its serious stuff, despit what detractors say. Isnt it funny that those who diss Freemasonry have never set foot inside a Lodge before?? You would be very, very surprised who you could meet in Lodges. Once you go through the main degrees, then the fun starts....and its gets interesting. Very Interesting. But, to use the usual cliche, ya never know unless you go!! There are over 55,000 Masons on this Island and it is growing rapidly. If you are interested in finding out more, pop into the Grand Lodge in Molesworth Street, where there is a cool Museum open to the Public.

Thanks, but in the same way as I wont book a ticket for the electric picnic without knowing the lineup, I won't be joining any club whose purpose is not revealed until you join.

Besides, I thought the only secret thing that the freemasons did was have their secret handshakes. Why the reluctance to set out, even in the most general terms, what the theme of the club is?

nyarlothothep

A group to make contacts.

The meetings involve bacchanalian orgies.

robroy1234

Ny - I don't know where you get the notion of Blood Orgies...imaginative, but far from what we actually do. I will bring it up at our next meeting but may cause a stir in whose blood....

Jonny - why ask a question in the first place if you are not interested in hearing the answer. As for secrecy etc., we are available on the internet. As for not letting other people know about whats going on - there is more secrecy and backroom deals with the GAA than any other organisation here in Ireland, and you try and ask a successful top athlete/coach what is the reason for their success.

Emme

robroy1234 wrote: »

To find out one has to join...

To join one has to be male and women are politely directed to the nearest branch of the ICA...

robroy1234

NY - your post just changed from Blood Orgies to Bacchanalian Orgies - well do have a series of toasts after the meetings - but drunkeness and rowdy behaviour is seriously frowned upon. The only related part of Bacchus to Freemasonry is the link between the Roman Deity Bacchus and the Greek Deity Dionysus. Even though they are both considered primarily Gods of Wine and produce, and their respective festivals were drunken revelries, the esoteric part of Dionysus is the advent of the Dionysian Artificers, and with the Roman Collegia associated with Bacchus.

We are far from being riotious and rowdy, meetings are civil and respectful and toasting afterwards is a mark of respect and honour. You will find more "Bacchanalian behaviour" on a saturday night in any town from people who have no respect for others or for themselves.

robroy1234

Emme - there are some lodges for women, but they do not operate here in Ireland, not because of prejudice but from a lack of interest by women, and because of attacks from the catholic church. Suffice it to say the majority of Masons here in Ireland are catholic, myself included. The ICA don't have the regalia, but are just as tightlipped.

The first ever female freemason was inducted here in Ireland.

Torakx

Who was she?
Former president? just joking..kinda lol
I presume it was alot longer then just 10-15 years ago.

Emme

Torakx wrote: »

Who was she?
Former president? just joking..kinda lol
I presume it was alot longer then just 10-15 years ago.

She was a Corkwoman. She was born in 1693, the fourth child and only daughter of Viscount Doneraile, who was himself a keen mason.

The story states that Lord Doneraile held Lodge meetings at Doneraile Court from time to time. On one occasion (c.1712), some building work had been partially completed whereby two rooms were to be connected by an arch. Lord Doneraile and other masons held a meeting in one of the rooms not realising that Elizabeth was in the other room having fallen asleep whilst reading. The sound of voices awakened her and, her curiosity aroused, she removed a loose brick in the wall and observed the proceedings. It is reported a staff member discovered her.

The members of the lodge, under the circumstances, felt they had to initiate her. See link below for more details:

http://www.munsterfreemason.com/The_Lady_Freemason.htm

robroy1234

Yep, that is correct - see we didn't have her executed or done anything else to her, and she was an exceptional mason as well. It would be interesting to see women freemasonry here in Ireland, but that would depend on various factors such as numbers, location, costs, and an existing membership set-up etc.,

robroy1234

That is correct. She became very prominent in freemasonry. I would be very much interested to see women freemasonry be established here in Ireland, but that would require a various factors such as numbers, existing female members (from England etc.,) costs, locations etc.,

Torakx

Just being honest here but women are much smarter than men in the areas that a secret society might find advantagous.
The thought of Irish women getting that organised is damn scary haha.

If masons hadnt been so egotistical through history regarding gender, they might have reached their goals alot sooner me thinks.
But i guess the enlightened still was and is progressing through time.

Although with that said dont freemasons have some afinity with venus and enlightenment?
I also learned this morning that high levels of testosterone make men unthinking and more volatile among other things,so im guessing the female hormone is the counterbalance.
Same with left and right brain dominance.The left is said to be male side and is linear in thinking,see and thinks of things in direct steps and the right side female responsible for creativity,seeing the bigger picture and philosophical thinking.
This is not to say all men and women function according to this.Its just the traits have been associated this way and men and women show both sides.
But what im getitng at n a very round about way is why do the masons show a certain amount of devotion to the female "side" and still through history neglected to see the unique capabilities and uses for their society that women posses?

Interesting story though about the girl being initiated.

Emme

robroy1234 wrote: »

Yep, that is correct - see we didn't have her executed or done anything else to her, and she was an exceptional mason as well. It would be interesting to see women freemasonry here in Ireland, but that would depend on various factors such as numbers, location, costs, and an existing membership set-up etc.,

Perhaps you'd need to emphasise the charitable side of Freemasonry to sell it to women. Get a bunch of them to run in the Dublin Mini-Marathon raising money for charity - you wouldn't get better publicity than that.

robroy1234

Torax - I hate to be pedantic here but Testosterone has absolutely nothing to do with behaviour nor any cognitive function. Behaviourism is primarily a neural structure and depends on the level of activity in neural centres of the brain. There are female / male differences and that is with the neural firing patterns in the temporal as compared to the frontal lobes. Brain size has nothing to do with functional capability so there again no difference between male / female brain in terms of intelligence. Testosterone is secondary sexual developmental hormone and its primary function is in the production of sperm and somewhat muscular development. The differences in males depends on various factors such as Sex Hormone Binding Globulin, and the receptors in the cells. Women produce testosterone but at a lower level than men and with a different biochemical pathway. Research in the US and UK indicate that violent, aggressive and sexual perversity are not triggered by levels of testosterone and that women have committed just as violent and depraved crimes. Neural re-structuring of the brain during developmental stages in life and neural firing patterns lead to behavioural changes.

As for charity, we do not in anyway at all solicit donations from anyone else except fellow freemasons, and we do not do "the celebrity thing" of hijacking a charity for personal gain.

Torakx

I agree mostly with you.
But behaviour and lifestyle choices i am learning are greatly effected by hormones.Its effects everythign form the mate you choose to the shape of your jawbone to wether you are spontaneous or reserved.BUT also you are right in saying there are other things that have an effect too.
I am just highlighting the hormone one because it ties in with my previous knowledge of left and right brain theores and philosophical references to the male and female brain even with eastern religions.Ying and yang for example.
I guess my ability or lack of! to get to the point is sabotaging the conversation here.
Back to basics,
from my research into freemasonry i have learned that they revere the female ..cant think of the word but whatever ecompasses the spirit of the feminine side.
If you look at the lodges in america some of them have some interesting murals above the doors and on the ceilings representing scientific theories and metaphysical theories and also religious symbolism from indian cultures which has been known to tie in with some "new age science".
so i was wondering why they tended to rever the feminine but not allow women, the material representation in human form to join their societies.
Maybe there is no officailt stance withing the society on this topic so i may just be presenting you more questions that dont have an easy answer.Sorry! lol

robroy1234

Torakx - my Postgraduate research was in the biochemistry of sex-hormones and behaviourism, this research centered around the notion of "roid rage" in which certain bodybuilders blamed their violent and aggressive behaviour on the anabolic steroids they were taken. But, research has shown that neural firing patterns and reinforcement and with such items as drugs, alcohol and steroids reduced the level of inhibition. Male neural activity is mostly frontal and female is mostly temporal. Left / Right is more indicative of whether you are right or left handed.


In terms of revering the feminine, I suppose that there is a tenuous link between certain groups as the Rosicrucians and the Templar Knights. If you look closer however, we revere St. John the Baptist more so. There are plenty of examples of the feminine in freemasonry and there are masonic female lodges, but alas none in Ireland due to lack of interest from women.

johnnyskeleton

The puppet masters.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Jonny - why ask a question in the first place if you are not interested in hearing the answer. As for secrecy etc., we are available on the internet. As for not letting other people know about whats going on - there is more secrecy and backroom deals with the GAA than any other organisation here in Ireland, and you try and ask a successful top athlete/coach what is the reason for their success.

I am interested to hear the answer. Hiram said that he would answer any questions put.

It's not unreasonable to ask what a club does. For example, Mensa is a social group for people with high IQs to do high IQ type stuff. The Orange Order is a social group for Northern Protestants to further the cause of Northern Protestants. The Man United Supporters Club is a social group for Man United supporters to held support Man United.

Every club has a specific grouping and a particular cause or interest that they encourage. For example, if you want to go to lectures by Stephen Hawking and solve complex puzzles then Mensa is for you. If you want to protest any efforts to create a united Ireland then the Orange Order is where to do it. If you want to go to Old Trafford with the boys and see Rooney in action, then the Man United Supporters Club is how to go.

So with each of these things, it either does exactly what it says on the tin, or else its members give a bit of info, via press releases etc to show who they are and what they stand for.

Not so the Masons. All I can find out about the Masons are:
1) they have to believe in God;
2) you have to be male to be a member;
3) they are not, repeat not, a satanic cult hell bent on world domination; and
4) they arise out of the trade of mason as a primitive guild/trade body;

So taking these things in turn, they can't be a club for discussing God because they have foresworn any religious speak during meetings. I don't see the benefit to a men only club and fail to see how being male is a topic of interest. I take them at their word that they aren't a satantic cult and that they don't want to take over or secretly control the world. It is possible that they discuss stone masonry and other construction related topics, but this seems a bit too dull to attract the numbers and variety of persons that they have.

So, taking Hiram's invitation and the statement on their website that they are an open society in everything but their secret identifiers (e.g. codes and handshakes), I would like to know what the theme of the club is.

Frankly, telling me that I can't know what the theme is unless I join is a cop out.

The analogy with asking a top athlete the secret of his success is not an apt analogy. It would be more like being introduced to someone as "Hi, my name is Dave. I'm a top athlete" and when you ask him what sport he plays he tells you that he is not going to say, but if you want to play this mystery sport with him he will let you join his sports club (for a fee, of course).

Torakx

Well put question.
I couldnt help laughing to myself at the idea of some of the biggest politicians and bussiness men in this country sitting around in a meeting discussing masonry.
"last weeks meeting,cobblestone"
"this week, granite"

robroy1234

OK. The analogy of a top athlete is correct, considering I have been involved with athletics for over 25 years, and there are many coaches and athletes extremely secretive about their particular methods. Sebastian Coe's father used to tell the media all sorts of things to deflect from Coe's real training methods.

as for secrecy etc., every organisation in the world has some sort of method to identify members. The origins of freemasonry is with the stone mason guilds during the medieval times. The majority of people at the time were illiterate and therefore methods to identify what rank a mason holds needed to be assessed. The same thing would apply to the grading system used in Karate, you can identify whom is a black belt as compared to someone who is a orange belt.

Now, as for politicians, I have been in freemasonry for a number of years and been to many Provincial and Grand lodge meetings and have never met or seen any politician. Even going through the roll book not one politician here in Ireland is a member. Now considering that the former Taoiseach Brian Cowen and Seanie Fitzpatrick met and played golf prior to the announcement of the bank guarantee scheme, it appears that the only place in Ireland where such backroom deals and decisions are made are in golf clubs. Almost every politician is a member of a golf club. These Clubs are highly exclusive and expensive such as the K-club.

Torakx

Thanks Robroy that was very informative.
It still begs the question posed but i wouldnt expect a direct answer to be honest anyway.A secret society is secet for a reason i guess.

robroy1234

You are more than welcome to visit the Grand Lodge of Ireland, Molesworth Street, Dublin 2, or any of the lodges around the country. All lodges are easily identifiable and are listed in the phonebook as well as on the websites. There are plenty resources out there in books and on the internet, so you have ample opportunity to find out information that you want. We are a society with secrets and not a secret society, the same would apply to the ICA. You just want myself and others on this website to tell you of how we identify each other and other related information, which firstly we won't - not because it is secret, but because you are not entitled, and secondly, if you did find out it would be of no use to you anyway.

robroy1234

Johnny - have a real good look at the GAA and see how secretive and political that organisation is, also while you are at it have a look at certain exclusive golf clubs, especially ones where Brian Cowen and Sean Fitzpatrick are members. I am involved in athletics and sports, and I can tell you that there are far more corrupt and dodgy people involved in the GAA and local Sport Partnerships without the necessity of looking at the financial and banking sector. At least with freemasonry I meet people who are honest, decent and respectable, something that is pretty much lacking elsewhere in society.

Torakx

Actually i dont really mind not knowing the modern version of the secret handshake or if its still in use.
I am generally a curious person myself and am interested in what an average meeting would consist of.
As in topics.
I do admit because i do not know this for sure i hold also the idea that something more sinister could be happening.
But sinister is a strong word these days.I personally think its a kind of club for people who wish to make contacts and progress their careers and social lives and basically integrate themselves fully into society.
I consider this society today to be formed with alot of influence from freemasons.
Unless alot of actual masons who work with stone are freemasons too.
Because alot of buildings around dublin for example hold their mark.

I wouldnt think the average member would know anythign about world domination over what i know for example.
That whole Ct thing and masons i believe is limited to a small few.
And possibly the society is used as a conduit for bussiness on the side.

robroy1234

There are various people on websites who believe that exposing the signs, words and phrases, that freemasonry would then be nullified. But, the real essence of freemasonry is the bond of friendship in the lodge, and that friendship is then extended throughout the world where other recognised lodges are held. Therefore we see each and every man as equal, and this applies to women as well. The signs, words and phrases were designed to ferret out those men in the medieval ages who pretended to be masons, as the work of a mason was well paid and stable. But, as with all types of work there are dangers, and there used to be no health and safety, or any compensation scheme. So Master masons formed guilds and through these guilds they raised money that goes towards the funding of looking after distressed masons (injured or maimed) and their families if they died. The ethos of freemasonry is the continuation of this, and the charity that is collected by masons in the lodge goes into a fund to support and help distressed masons and their families. In the past the funds went to support schools, but now it provides grants and funding for education.

So Torakx and Johnny there is your answer.

I can assure you that nothing at all sinister is going on, I wouldn't be a member if there was anything of the sort going on. As for business contacts etc., that is totally frowned upon and unacceptable, and members are reminded not to engage in any such activity.

There are a few freemasons who do work as stonemasons, but like all guilds in the past, the original formation looks nothing like the present day system.

Buildings, Castles and Keeps all have different types of marks and symbols placed upon them. Consider that when you visit the Pharmacy or hospital the ancient, pagan symbol of Asclepius is on the sign or door. That is not to say that those people - including catholic priests, would not enter such a building because of such a symbol. Castles and Keeps throughout Europe have Mason's Marks (Marks of the Mason) on them, this was because a Mason had to prove that he did such work in order to get paid.

I would like to think that we have domination over the world, but that is just a myth.

johnnyskeleton

The puppet masters.

robroy1234 wrote: »

OK. The analogy of a top athlete is correct, considering I have been involved with athletics for over 25 years, and there are many coaches and athletes extremely secretive about their particular methods. Sebastian Coe's father used to tell the media all sorts of things to deflect from Coe's real training methods.

as for secrecy etc., every organisation in the world has some sort of method to identify members. The origins of freemasonry is with the stone mason guilds during the medieval times. The majority of people at the time were illiterate and therefore methods to identify what rank a mason holds needed to be assessed. The same thing would apply to the grading system used in Karate, you can identify whom is a black belt as compared to someone who is a orange belt.

Now, as for politicians, I have been in freemasonry for a number of years and been to many Provincial and Grand lodge meetings and have never met or seen any politician. Even going through the roll book not one politician here in Ireland is a member. Now considering that the former Taoiseach Brian Cowen and Seanie Fitzpatrick met and played golf prior to the announcement of the bank guarantee scheme, it appears that the only place in Ireland where such backroom deals and decisions are made are in golf clubs. Almost every politician is a member of a golf club. These Clubs are highly exclusive and expensive such as the K-club.

That's fine. Let me put it this way - I do not want to know the club's secret methods of identification. I do not want to know their secret methods of doing things, and I do not want to know anything that is senstitive about its membership.

Can you please quote the above and acknowledge it so that we can put this issue to bed. I do not care to know the Freemason's secrets. Got it?

I don't want to know the athlete's methods, I simply want to know what sport he plays.

Now, can you please answer the questions:

What is Freemasonry all about?

What sort of a person would join?

What are the common interests or themes of members?

It's a fairly straight forward query, I would have thought. I'm a member of the Purple Monkey Dishwasher club. When people ask me what that's all about I say that we meet up once a month and watch episodes of the simpsons, and co-ordinate the simpsons fanclub.

You're a Freemason, what's that all about?

johnnyskeleton

The puppet masters.

robroy1234 wrote: »

You are more than welcome to visit the Grand Lodge of Ireland, Molesworth Street, Dublin 2, or any of the lodges around the country. All lodges are easily identifiable and are listed in the phonebook as well as on the websites. There are plenty resources out there in books and on the internet, so you have ample opportunity to find out information that you want. We are a society with secrets and not a secret society, the same would apply to the ICA. You just want myself and others on this website to tell you of how we identify each other and other related information, which firstly we won't - not because it is secret, but because you are not entitled, and secondly, if you did find out it would be of no use to you anyway.

No one wants to know how you identify yourselves, ok? We do not care.

Likewise, no one is going to go all the way to Dublin to find out what the club is about. If people knew what the club was about, then maybe they would be interested.

johnnyskeleton

The puppet masters.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Johnny - have a real good look at the GAA and see how secretive and political that organisation is, also while you are at it have a look at certain exclusive golf clubs, especially ones where Brian Cowen and Sean Fitzpatrick are members. I am involved in athletics and sports, and I can tell you that there are far more corrupt and dodgy people involved in the GAA and local Sport Partnerships without the necessity of looking at the financial and banking sector. At least with freemasonry I meet people who are honest, decent and respectable, something that is pretty much lacking elsewhere in society.

But of those clubs I know:

1) the basic reason why they exist i.e. for sports;
2) what kind of sport they play (i.e. football and hurling in one, golf in the other); and
3) what sort of people and what sort of vibe I would get if I joined, whether I would be welcome or not there.

Why is it so hard to give this basic information about Freemasonry? The only logical conclusions are either that there is some secret purpose to Freemasonry that they don't want to reveal, or else it is a money making racket to get people to join.

robroy1234

What is Freemasonry all about?

It is about self-improvement with the tools and symbolism of stonemasonry as guidestones. The allegories used in the rituals and ceremonies reinforce the idea of personal integrity and responsibility. Freemasonry also teaches us to act and behave accordingly, with respect to others and to adhere and obey the law of the land.

What sort of a person would join?

Any man can join as long as he is 21 years or older, believes in the supreme being, and is in good standing within his community and neighbourhood - so anyone with a criminal record is not accepted.

What are the common interests or themes of members?

As there are a diversity of members from all walks of life, there is no one straight common interest. There are the various charities and interests such as masonic history and rituals, but not all masons are interested in the same thing. We all get out of it different things - some like to travel and visit other lodges nationally/internationally, others like to concentrate on the administration, while others prefer research and history.

Being a freemason is all about being a better person and having a set of moral and ethical marks that are uncorrupted to guide oneself. Here the catholic church is in no position at all to have any moral authority.

As for the sporting organisations such as local sport partnerships - I have never met such a bunch of corrupt, self-seeking individuals in the world that could compare to some of these people. If you honestly think the GAA and these sport partnership are good for the promotion of sport and wellbeing, then you are on the wrong planet.

But, for good measure, have a real incisive look at the state of Ireland and look at the bankers, politicians, the catholic church etc., look at where they meet and do their businesses - the golf club, the GAA headquarters, the church., and yet people like you blame people such as myself for my membership of freemasonry.

steelcityblues

A satanic cult.

Believing in a supreme being? - basically, similar to the Catholic Church in this country then?

With the people at the top, the same thing remains from organisation to organisation - it is all about control over others.

Fancy PR jargon can't hide it.

the irony of your last paragraph is outstanding - the people you are condemning are involved in special clubs too. What makes yours more ethical?

johnnyskeleton

The puppet masters.

robroy1234 wrote: »

What is Freemasonry all about?

It is about self-improvement with the tools and symbolism of stonemasonry as guidestones. The allegories used in the rituals and ceremonies reinforce the idea of personal integrity and responsibility. Freemasonry also teaches us to act and behave accordingly, with respect to others and to adhere and obey the law of the land.

What sort of a person would join?

Any man can join as long as he is 21 years or older, believes in the supreme being, and is in good standing within his community and neighbourhood - so anyone with a criminal record is not accepted.

What are the common interests or themes of members?

As there are a diversity of members from all walks of life, there is no one straight common interest. There are the various charities and interests such as masonic history and rituals, but not all masons are interested in the same thing. We all get out of it different things - some like to travel and visit other lodges nationally/internationally, others like to concentrate on the administration, while others prefer research and history.

Being a freemason is all about being a better person and having a set of moral and ethical marks that are uncorrupted to guide oneself. Here the catholic church is in no position at all to have any moral authority.

Thanks, it still seems a little vague for me, but I suppose it is a step closer to saying what the Freemasons are all about.

robroy1234 wrote: »

As for the sporting organisations such as local sport partnerships - I have never met such a bunch of corrupt, self-seeking individuals in the world that could compare to some of these people. If you honestly think the GAA and these sport partnership are good for the promotion of sport and wellbeing, then you are on the wrong planet.

Well, I don't see any alternatives. But that's a matter for a different thread if you want to go into it.

robroy1234 wrote: »

But, for good measure, have a real incisive look at the state of Ireland and look at the bankers, politicians, the catholic church etc., look at where they meet and do their businesses - the golf club, the GAA headquarters, the church., and yet people like you blame people such as myself for my membership of freemasonry.

Where have I or people like me blamed Freemasons for all of that? My view, for what it is worth, is that the Freemasons are just a stuffy old conservative group, much like those gentlemen's clubs on St. Stephen's Green. I don't see anything in this thread to change that view or to make Freemasonry seem in any way appealing in the modern age.

robroy1234

As a moderator you are not very moderate. Considering that you have pre-concieved ideas and disregard whatever someone tells you that runs contrary to your belief. The difference between freemasonry and the catholic church is that the catholic church meddles in politics, economics, medical and social issues that is beyond its writ.

As a freemason I do not speak for, or on behalf of freemasonry. I only can write about my own personal experience. So in that respect, your assertion that the hierarchy dictates from the above is totally wrong. I exert no authority or dictate to any other mason and no other mason does so the same to myself.

robroy1234

Steel , Johnny - you are adult enough to decide for yourself and should be adequately mature enough to accept what people like myself and Hiram tell you. We do not know you or have any interest in your lives or anyone elses', so it is not our interest to be dishonest or be misleading.

We do however accept that many men are not and never will be accepted into freemasonry, and this can lead to some feeling of disinfranchisement by some men. Some are rejected because we feel that their attitude and behaviour is not conducive, some may have criminal records or are known to be dishonest. Also anyone with extreme political, religious views are not acceptable and neither is anyone trying to set up business contacts.

johnnyskeleton

The puppet masters.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Steel , Johnny - you are adult enough to decide for yourself and should be adequately mature enough to accept what people like myself and Hiram tell you. We do not know you or have any interest in your lives or anyone elses', so it is not our interest to be dishonest or be misleading.

We do however accept that many men are not and never will be accepted into freemasonry, and this can lead to some feeling of disinfranchisement by some men. Some are rejected because we feel that their attitude and behaviour is not conducive, some may have criminal records or are known to be dishonest. Also anyone with extreme political, religious views are not acceptable and neither is anyone trying to set up business contacts.

I never said you were dishonest, and I think suggesting that my non-membership or indeed non-eligibilty to be a mason disenfranchies me is a bit of a strange assertion.

I just think it is strange that there exists such a high profile society that professes openess and welcome, but doesn't have any clear application to the mordern world other than a vague assertion that masonry leads to self improvement. In my view, insisting that people believe in a supreme being which they can't talk about is a step backwards.

But sure if you enjoy it work away.

steelcityblues

A satanic cult.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Steel , Johnny - you are adult enough to decide for yourself and should be adequately mature enough to accept what people like myself and Hiram tell you. We do not know you or have any interest in your lives or anyone elses', so it is not our interest to be dishonest or be misleading.

We do however accept that many men are not and never will be accepted into freemasonry, and this can lead to some feeling of disinfranchisement by some men. Some are rejected because we feel that their attitude and behaviour is not conducive, some may have criminal records or are known to be dishonest. Also anyone with extreme political, religious views are not acceptable and neither is anyone trying to set up business contacts.

It would be funny, if the general attitude of 'with us or against us' did not remind me of countless pro wrestling stables down through the years (Horsemen, NWO, Evolution), who kicked out unbecoming members on scripted shows. Not to mention too, the Bush foreign policy mantra to Americans post 9/11.

Who says that stuff is always fake?

Like Groucho, I don't need no stinkin club to feel vindicated. If you do, then go ahead.

Saaron

A money making group.

It's quite funny to read all these posts about the Freemasons.

My Grandfather has been in the Masons for many years, I grew up with him so I've met many of it's members throughout the years.
He actually used to work in the Masonic on Molesworth St. and I used to go to work with him when I was about 5/6 and get to see around the place. At this stage I recognise many of the members and have been to numerous amounts of their dinners and events inside the masonic or at various other places.

Most of the men there are slightly older and do a lot of fund raising events for charities. They have dinners, and get-togethers. A lot of socialising goes on. Nothing strange really. I can't see why this is under conspiracy theories. It's just a men's club.

jimbobaloobob

i suppose people who arent in the free masons or other clubs like it probably feel there is an air of mystery they are uncomfortable with and that leads to the conspiracies

squod

A group to make contacts.

Saaron wrote: »

Most of the men there are slightly older and do a lot of fund raising events for charities. They have dinners, and get-togethers. A lot of socialising goes on. Nothing strange really. I can't see why this is under conspiracy theories. It's just a men's club.

Disagree entirely with the ''Nothing strange really'' comment. It's highly strange.

robroy1234

No. Squod, as we told you before Nothing strange at all goes on, but feel free to imagine all sorts of things

robtri

squod wrote: »

Disagree entirely with the ''Nothing strange really'' comment. It's highly strange.

Can you define what exactly you think goes on at a freemason meeting then that is highly strange?

hiram

A money making group.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

That's fine. Let me put it this way - I do not want to know the club's secret methods of identification. I do not want to know their secret methods of doing things, and I do not want to know anything that is senstitive about its membership.

Can you please quote the above and acknowledge it so that we can put this issue to bed. I do not care to know the Freemason's secrets. Got it?

I don't want to know the athlete's methods, I simply want to know what sport he plays.

Now, can you please answer the questions:

What is Freemasonry all about?

What sort of a person would join?

What are the common interests or themes of members?

It's a fairly straight forward query, I would have thought. I'm a member of the Purple Monkey Dishwasher club. When people ask me what that's all about I say that we meet up once a month and watch episodes of the simpsons, and co-ordinate the simpsons fanclub.

You're a Freemason, what's that all about?

Right, firstly Rob, you dont know mw, you have me mixed up with someone else. Secondly, Freemasonry is about self improvement, confidence building, acting, trust, virtue and charity...at least that is what I have gotten from it. People join Masonry for a number of reasons...Networking, Self Improvement through gaining the confidence in addressing your Peers without the fear of rebuttal, Esotheric Interests, History Fans, namely Medieval, Ritualists...or those who enjoy running a meeting the way it has been done for 300 or more years without ANY change...which is quite impressive to witness, especially in Bigger Lodges, people who want to feel elitist...(they dont last long), builders, farmers, shopkeepers, unemployed, a shared interest in the "What If", brotherhood..or the sense of belonging, ....etc etc,

But like I said, you have to "get it"....most actors get it, open minded folks get it, curious people get it, history buffs get it....the problem we have now is that young people, due to their change in what interests them, wont get it...which is a Big problem for us.....and whoich is why it is only well educated, well read and openminded folks who join, which is a shame really....

Now some folks are happy to remain as Master Masons, but others then go on to join the highr orders, and thats when things become very spiritual and esotherical

Have a look at this for the crack....
http://youtu.be/Dbri_oXDTaA

H

hiram

A money making group.

hiram wrote: »

Right, firstly Rob, you dont know mw, you have me mixed up with someone else. Secondly, Freemasonry is about self improvement, confidence building, acting, trust, virtue and charity...at least that is what I have gotten from it. People join Masonry for a number of reasons...Networking, Self Improvement through gaining the confidence in addressing your Peers without the fear of rebuttal, Esotheric Interests, History Fans, namely Medieval, Ritualists...or those who enjoy running a meeting the way it has been done for 300 or more years without ANY change...which is quite impressive to witness, especially in Bigger Lodges, people who want to feel elitist...(they dont last long), builders, farmers, shopkeepers, unemployed, a shared interest in the "What If", brotherhood..or the sense of belonging, ....etc etc,

But like I said, you have to "get it"....most actors get it, open minded folks get it, curious people get it, history buffs get it....the problem we have now is that young people, due to their change in what interests them, wont get it...which is a Big problem for us.....and whoich is why it is only well educated, well read and openminded folks who join, which is a shame really....

Now some folks are happy to remain as Master Masons, but others then go on to join the highr orders, and thats when things become very spiritual and esotherical

Have a look at this for the crack....
http://youtu.be/Dbri_oXDTaA

H

excuse the speling mistakes, im typing in a hurry in work!!

Torakx

Dan Brown to me seems to be a fictional writer,who gives bad representations to the layman of real history.
His whole project is based on a fictional account,but it was interesting to watch.

There are some good one sout there but even then the interviewer misses key symbols inside the lodges and fails to ask questions that go a bit deeper than the basic stuff that is well known.
I saw one documentary i think called "Inside The Freemasons, The Grand Lodge Uncovered" done in 2010.
Was ok but stil lthen the interviewer knew less of what he was investigating than myself even.
For example he was looking at an american lodge and the stained glass windows and murals but failed to notice one of the obvious questions that people should have asked and that was, why do those cherubs have hooves on their feet?
Maybe a simple answer but its been a long time since i checked that one out.
Theres lots of stuff he failed to ask and i think does investigation a diservice by being so unprepared when tackling the topic in that video.

But as you said its a bit of craic.I take it all with a pinch of salt, including his investigation.

nyarlothothep

A group to make contacts.

hiram wrote: »

Right, firstly Rob, you dont know mw, you have me mixed up with someone else. Secondly, Freemasonry is about self improvement, confidence building, acting, trust, virtue and charity...at least that is what I have gotten from it. People join Masonry for a number of reasons...Networking, Self Improvement through gaining the confidence in addressing your Peers without the fear of rebuttal, Esotheric Interests, History Fans, namely Medieval, Ritualists...or those who enjoy running a meeting the way it has been done for 300 or more years without ANY change...which is quite impressive to witness, especially in Bigger Lodges, people who want to feel elitist...(they dont last long), builders, farmers, shopkeepers, unemployed, a shared interest in the "What If", brotherhood..or the sense of belonging, ....etc etc,

But like I said, you have to "get it"....most actors get it, open minded folks get it, curious people get it, history buffs get it....the problem we have now is that young people, due to their change in what interests them, wont get it...which is a Big problem for us.....and whoich is why it is only well educated, well read and openminded folks who join, which is a shame really....

Now some folks are happy to remain as Master Masons, but others then go on to join the highr orders, and thats when things become very spiritual and esotherical

Have a look at this for the crack....
http://youtu.be/Dbri_oXDTaA

H

You say open minded well educated folk get it, but then one of the fundamental tenets for joining is that you have to believe in a supreme being. Lack of belief in this principle has nothing to do with a lack of education or curiosity. So I would attribute the falloff to a movement away from ye olde superstitions. Of course I could play the same game and say delusion is a pre requisite for joining and such delusion is cultural or rooted in personality preferences tending towards an emotive ordering of world processes. Your post smacks of elitism and superiority which is a criticism levelled at masonry. Those who are in the club are enlightened, those who do not share its beliefs are somehow lesser. Of course this isn't unique, many human collectives fall prey to this reasoning.

Torakx

I think this way of thinking is quite prominant in anything that premotes religious behaviour.
I used to be in a strict kind of rare religion for Ireland and experienced over the years an issue similar to the one you described.
With this religion the ego is one of the systems the personality and mind has that is usefull for controlling members and keeping them on the "straight and narrow".
Not that im saying this is the case with masons,i just found your post interesting and might or might not be relevant with freemasons too, considering their close knit community and slight seperation from the outside world once in that setting,as i was in an extreme way with my old religion.
Thankfully i deprogrammed myself over many years of research on psychology and NLP
God bless the internet in that respect!
But if you sense a bit of elitism from me it is most likely due the the last remnants of religious belief lol
When you consider your group greater than the "outside world" you come closer together and reinforce those beliefs within yourself like a self perpetuating motion of self imprisonment it seems to me.

getz

The puppet masters.

to try and tell the man in the street that freemasonary is all good is a joke,most of us have come up against freemason corruption at one time or another,their use of influence within and between [organizations[for example,the police or local goverment]to further each others interests,even goverments ie italy,have been overthrown, in the UK alone mason corruption has been seen at the top leval,leading to a goverment attempt to control it.italy tried to make it illegal. coverups in northern ireland by masons is well known[ie stalker ] for example.its not masonary at street level thats the problem,its masonary at the top.

ed2hands

Just have to break the ice a bit here and thought of this sketch before when reading this thread.
Not meant at poking fun at Masons at all; at least not in a bad way.;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfGpVcdqeS0