The Freemasons

johnnyskeleton

The puppet masters.

hiram wrote: »

Right, firstly Rob, you dont know mw, you have me mixed up with someone else. Secondly, Freemasonry is about self improvement, confidence building, acting, trust, virtue and charity...at least that is what I have gotten from it. People join Masonry for a number of reasons...Networking, Self Improvement through gaining the confidence in addressing your Peers without the fear of rebuttal, Esotheric Interests, History Fans, namely Medieval, Ritualists...or those who enjoy running a meeting the way it has been done for 300 or more years without ANY change...which is quite impressive to witness, especially in Bigger Lodges, people who want to feel elitist...(they dont last long), builders, farmers, shopkeepers, unemployed, a shared interest in the "What If", brotherhood..or the sense of belonging, ....etc etc,

Thanks for that, it's actually quite a good explanation of what it is about. Sort of like WWII recreation for pacifists. Being part of an organisation with a long history has a lot of appeal to it.

hiram wrote: »

But like I said, you have to "get it"....most actors get it, open minded folks get it, curious people get it, history buffs get it....

I can't agree with this generalisation. It seems to me that open minded people, history buffs and the curious would be interested to find out what they do (as I am) but not so interested as to actually take part in the rituals, become members or participate in such an organisation.

hiram wrote: »

the problem we have now is that young people, due to their change in what interests them, wont get it...which is a Big problem for us.....and whoich is why it is only well educated, well read and openminded folks who join, which is a shame really....

Like builders, farmers, shopkeepers, the unemployed and those people who want to feel elitist? Sure, any of those people could be very well educated, well read and open minded, but as groups I can't quite make the connection with those people being more open minded, well educated and well read than the academics, scientists and professional persons who eschew the masons.

hiram wrote: »

Now some folks are happy to remain as Master Masons, but others then go on to join the highr orders, and thats when things become very spiritual and esotherical

Again, this is on the one hand the part of Masonry that intrigues me, but also the part that puts me off (and also why I would never be accepted as a Mason). The whole "I don't believe in organised religion but I still believe in a God" might have been quite exciting and intellectual in the 18th century, but it seems to me a somewhat adolescent belief in the modern era. As someone with an open mind, I would be curious to know what they believe in (no, I'm not asking, just expressing curiosity). Who knows, if I was presented with their belief system, I might adopt it if it stands up to intellectual scrutiny, but it does seem a bit like scientology to me insofar as you don't get to know what it is about until you are fully indoctrinated and have paid over your money.

squod

A group to make contacts.

robtri wrote: »

Can you define what exactly you think goes on at a freemason meeting then that is highly strange?

You tell me what goes on and I'll tell you what's strange about it.

robroy1234 wrote: »

No. Squod, as we told you before Nothing strange at all goes on, but feel free to imagine all sorts of things

Imagine? D'you know that at every turn you've criticised my input into this and other freemason related threads. People are going to disagree with your opinions and some of those people are going to right sometimes. That's a fact.

Yitzhak Rabin

A money making group.

squod wrote: »

You tell me what goes on and I'll tell you what's strange about it.



Imagine? D'you know that at every turn you've criticised my input into this and other freemason related threads. People are going to disagree with your opinions and some of those people are going to right sometimes. That's a fact.

Do you ever speak clearly squod? Or is it always an ordeal to get you to say what you mean?

squod

A group to make contacts.

yekahS wrote: »

Do you ever speak clearly squod? Or is it always an ordeal to get you to say what you mean?

Beating around the bush is a theme for the thread. Hell even I'm not getting straight answers, but don't take my side whatever you do :P

robroy1234

Squod, I have been upfront and honest with you as with the others that have responded to you.

old_aussie

A money making group.

Freemasons crack open the door.

But as up to 900 freemasons gathered in Sydney to appoint their new Grand Master, Derek Robson, the costumes were all part of the fun.
"Don't tell me that grown men don't like to play dress ups," Mr Robson said, pointing to white capes and hats that are more commonly seen on bishops.

At Mr Robson's appointment as the new Grand Master of the Freemasons in New South Wales and the ACT today, media were allowed to witness and film The Grand Installation Ceremony for the first time. It's held every three years.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/secretive-freemasons-open-the-doors/story-e6frf7jx-1226109836346

robroy1234

here in Ireland we do not wear any hats at all. We only wear our aprons and whatever jewel of office that one holds for the year. Masons are however fond of masonic bling and will wear tie pins, lapel pins, and some of us - including myself have items such as masonic decorated fob watches. But, as for items such as Hats for ceremonial purposes we do not have such things. Under the English constitution they are required to wear white, whereas we do not, so each constitution is different.

Jesus Wept

A money making group.

Do you have to give up 10% of your salary?

robroy1234

Absolutely Not. We only pay a small fee for the year and nothing else. Only the Mormons have the system of giving 10% of one's own salary. One of the main things that is stipluated in joining freemasonry is that freemasonry does not in any come before one's commitment to family and work. It is stated that we have a duty to one's own family and that they will come first.

hiram

A money making group.

We pay €5 per meeting into a basket, once a month

The meetings are very ritualised, think of a play, or indeed, a typical,Church Mass.

Most Lodged contain people from Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Hindu backgrounds etc

squod

A group to make contacts.

hiram wrote: »

We pay €5 per meeting into a basket, once a month

The meetings are very ritualised, think of a play, or indeed, a typical,Church Mass.

Most Lodged contain people from Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Hindu backgrounds etc

A false religion then. Agreed?

robroy1234

for the millionth time Squod - no. Organised religion has set doctrines and dogma which stipulates a certain system of belief. Freemasonry accepts any man (as long as he is law-abiding, honest with no criminal record) from any religion. Even though one has to believe in the supreme being, talk of religion and politics is strictly prohibited.

I am going to cut and paste this answer to you because no doubt you will ask the same question again later on.

Voodoo_rasher

hiram wrote: »

People join Masonry for a number of reasons...Networking, Self Improvement through gaining the confidence in addressing your Peers without the fear of rebuttal, Esotheric Interests, History Fans, namely Medieval, Ritualists...or those who enjoy running a meeting the way it has been done for 300 or more years without ANY change...which is quite impressive to witness, especially in Bigger Lodges, people who want to feel elitist...(they dont last long), builders, farmers, shopkeepers, unemployed, a shared interest in the "What If", brotherhood..or the sense of belonging, ....etc etc,


H

Am i correct in saying that you don't join unless you are

considered important enough/deemed suitably enough to be Invited and

unless you are approached prior?

Can i take it that vetting is carried out

on prospective members (which would be a good thing imho) ?

robroy1234

Voodoo...I am a member, and probably the most least important person around. Freemasonry is not about what you can get out of it...we all enter symbolically poor, destitute and blind., this is about being humble and sincere. There is no pomposity or airs and graces to it, the ceremonies and rites are not grandiose and pompous. The symbolic meaning behind the ceremonies and rites are far more important than regalia and outward appearances.

hiram

A money making group.

squod wrote: »

A false religion then. Agreed?

Its not a religion, as has been explained countless times, as it has no Dogma. It does have a ritual, used for explanation purposes, moral teachings etc, but then again, so does a soccer match, or your morning ritual, or social etiquette....there is ritual all around us. And as to your assumption that it is a false religion, think of this...all members of their own religion think that opposing religions are false, therefore, all religions are false, dont you think!!

hiram

A money making group.

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

Am i correct in saying that you don't join unless you are

considered important enough/deemed suitably enough to be Invited and

unless you are approached prior?

Can i take it that vetting is carried out

on prospective members (which would be a good thing imho) ?

If you ask to join, I can bet you would be accepted...no problem.

99% of people who are masons have ASKED to join, and have never been invited. the only people who have been invited that I know of are sons of fathers who are already Masons...keeping it in the family, type of thing.....popular with Protestant farmers in the West who like to maintain tradition.

Vetting, if you could call it that, IS carrried out, in the form of a meeting with a couple of masons from the lodge that you have asked to join,...if they like you, as a person, then you would be proposed by them as a potential member. They couldnt give a hoot who you are, where you came from, what religion you are, as long as you have NO criminal record, and that you belive in a supreme being.....which could be God, or alf the frog in the bottom of the Garden.

Like I say to all doubters or curious folk.... join, then you can allways leave if you dont find it to your taste...there is no pressure either way.

By the way, im involved in the ritual for Entered Apprentice, which is fantastic fun!!

hiram

A money making group.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Voodoo...I am a member, and probably the most least important person around. Freemasonry is not about what you can get out of it...we all enter symbolically poor, destitute and blind., this is about being humble and sincere. There is no pomposity or airs and graces to it, the ceremonies and rites are not grandiose and pompous. The symbolic meaning behind the ceremonies and rites are far more important than regalia and outward appearances.

Also, Robroy, I know that you are being gallant in your defence of The Craft, but , no offence, keep it simple for those who have a genuine interest in that which we hold dear. I find that not everyone really takes us THAT serious, and could be just leading you on for one of your eloquent responses!!:D:D

stuar

A group to make contacts.

I have a question about the rituals involved in masonry, may I add bizarre rituals in my outside opinion.
What exactly is the pupose of the rituals, surely good men can be made better without the threat of violence if they utter a word or secret to a non mason.
I've heard repeatedly that masonry isn't a religion or religious, yet it is, kind of like all religions you care to mention with a christian bible used, it's a little confusing to an outsider.
The re-anactments of the building of solomons temple is religiious yet would make little sense to a hindu, sikh or buddist mason or even a luciferian.

So what exactly is the purpose of the masonic rituals?

rit·u·al


1. an established or prescribed procedure for a religious or other rite.


2.
a system or collection of religious or other rites.

3.
observance of set forms in public worship.

4.
a book of rites or ceremonies.

5.
a book containing the offices to be used by priests in administering the sacraments and for visitation of the sick, burial of the dead, etc.

If you cant talk about the secret rituals and what happens at least give an example of what it means personally as different people have different outlooks on the same experience.

hiram

A money making group.

stuar wrote: »

I have a question about the rituals involved in masonry, may I add bizarre rituals in my outside opinion.
What exactly is the pupose of the rituals, surely good men can be made better without the threat of violence if they utter a word or secret to a non mason.
I've heard repeatedly that masonry isn't a religion or religious, yet it is, kind of like all religions you care to mention with a christian bible used, it's a little confusing to an outsider.
The re-anactments of the building of solomons temple is religiious yet would make little sense to a hindu, sikh or buddist mason or even a luciferian.

So what exactly is the purpose of the masonic rituals?

rit·u·al


1.an established or prescribed procedure for a religious or other rite.


2.
a system or collection of religious or other rites.

3.
observance of set forms in public worship.

4.
a book of rites or ceremonies.

5.
a book containing the offices to be used by priests in administering the sacraments and for visitation of the sick, burial of the dead, etc.

If you cant talk about the secret rituals and what happens at least give an example of what it means personally as different people have different outlooks on the same experience.

Well, part of the problem may be that we don't claim this (or at least none I know claim this). Masonry is a fraternal organization symbolically based on the tradition of the men who built of King Solomon's Temple. Most fraternal organizations have rituals. Part of the reason is to provide a consistent experience and explanation to all members. Another part is to establish the bond of common experience. A final part (at least for me) is that done properly, it's fun. It's also beautiful - there's some amazing prose contained in the Masonic ritual.

Why not join a local lodge and see for yourself!!

stuar

A group to make contacts.

hiram wrote: »

Well, part of the problem may be that we don't claim this (or at least none I know claim this).

You don't claim it is or is not religous or nobody is threatened with an agonising death if he reveals the masons secrets?, sorry it's just not clear to me what that answer was referring to.

hiram wrote: »

Masonry is a fraternal organization symbolically based on the tradition of the men who built of King Solomon's Temple. Most fraternal organizations have rituals. Part of the reason is to provide a consistent experience and explanation to all members. Another part is to establish the bond of common experience. A final part (at least for me) is that done properly, it's fun. It's also beautiful - there's some amazing prose contained in the Masonic ritual.

Why not join a local lodge and see for yourself!!

Firstly I'll pass on the joining, I probably be blackballed anyway, and I sometimes wonder is the initiation a mind control session, hypnosis was first developed by a mason, Franz Anton Mesmer, so I sometimes wonder if there's any connection between the two.
I've always wondered how seemingly normal men can take this stuff seriously, if it doesn't have a higher spiritual purpose.
It's all quiet bizarre to me, I mean no disrespect, it's just my opinion, then when I think of some of the men who have held places of power and they all went through these bizarre rituals, I sometimes wonder what is going on, I honestly find myself wondering "are masons really trying to or already controlling the world.

What and who is Jah-bul-on?, is it an anti mason fiction as masons claim?, is it a deity or combination of deities?.

It's just the constant re-enactments of the building of solomons temple, which comes from the Bible, then Solomon turned to baal worship in his later years, is there any connection?, and is there or what is the masonic connection to ancient Egypt?

I've read these questions being asked, but never heard or else heard contradictory accounts given by masons, which deepened my interest.

robroy1234

Staur - in reference to the "agonising death" is only an allegory and has never been enforced or acted upon, it is used for dramatic effect and that is all. As for being "Black balled" this would only happen if you are found to be someone who is disreputable, not in good standing with your neighbours and have a criminal record. As for Hiram and myself being part of a system of trying to control the world - I think not, I myself, have no interest in such nonsense especially in the condition that the world is in at the moment.
Jah-Bul-on is not in Craft Masonry but in Royal Arch, as for Baal - Baal means Lord but not specifically a mascaline meaning, and is the same as the wording of Lord that we use in the present. We would have to go into the schism between the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah in order to explain why the term Baal was considered bad. But, Baal was the original reference to God and was interchangable with the Tetragrammaton, with the main difference in being that Baal was specific to a location such as Edom or Canaan, whereas Tetragrammaton was primarily associated with the Ark of the Covenant and the Shekina - both were made in the Kingdom of Edom.
The connection with Egypt you will have to study the history of the Semitic nomadic wartribes of the Hyksos - or Desert Princes. They took over Lower Egypt and became Egyptianised. The Egyptians rose up and took back their lands, but by that time the Hyksos adopted many part of Egyptian theology. Many Hyksos were enslaved, but during the Santorini volcanic eruption which affected Lower Egypt many escaped and fled to the Kingdom of Edom. Around that time the Pharoah adopted a monotheistic God called the Aten. It is debateable whether the Aten came from the Hyksos by way of the Edomites, or the other way round.
The Kingdom of Edom though is a very important linchpin in the development of the monotheism of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Solomon didn't turn to Baal later in his life, he always worshipped Baal.

hiram

A money making group.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Staur - in reference to the "agonising death" is only an allegory and has never been enforced or acted upon, it is used for dramatic effect and that is all. As for being "Black balled" this would only happen if you are found to be someone who is disreputable, not in good standing with your neighbours and have a criminal record. As for Hiram and myself being part of a system of trying to control the world - I think not, I myself, have no interest in such nonsense especially in the condition that the world is in at the moment.
Jah-Bul-on is not in Craft Masonry but in Royal Arch, as for Baal - Baal means Lord but not specifically a mascaline meaning, and is the same as the wording of Lord that we use in the present. We would have to go into the schism between the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah in order to explain why the term Baal was considered bad. But, Baal was the original reference to God and was interchangable with the Tetragrammaton, with the main difference in being that Baal was specific to a location such as Edom or Canaan, whereas Tetragrammaton was primarily associated with the Ark of the Covenant and the Shekina - both were made in the Kingdom of Edom.
The connection with Egypt you will have to study the history of the Semitic nomadic wartribes of the Hyksos - or Desert Princes. They took over Lower Egypt and became Egyptianised. The Egyptians rose up and took back their lands, but by that time the Hyksos adopted many part of Egyptian theology. Many Hyksos were enslaved, but during the Santorini volcanic eruption which affected Lower Egypt many escaped and fled to the Kingdom of Edom. Around that time the Pharoah adopted a monotheistic God called the Aten. It is debateable whether the Aten came from the Hyksos by way of the Edomites, or the other way round.
The Kingdom of Edom though is a very important linchpin in the development of the monotheism of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Solomon didn't turn to Baal later in his life, he always worshipped Baal.

Well, Its good to know where to go for the History Lesson,fair play, most of us know the reason behind a lot of the ritual!!:D

H

robroy1234

I don't know that much about history at all -Just have a load of books and somewhat decent memory.

hiram

A money making group.

robroy1234 wrote: »

I don't know that much about history at all -Just have a load of books and somewhat decent memory.

Good, AND by the way, I live in Cork!! so I think you have the wrong guy!!

squod

A group to make contacts.

stuar wrote: »

It's just the constant re-enactments of the building of solomons temple, which comes from the Bible, then Solomon turned to baal worship in his later years........

You should read the book of Kings in the Bible, or maybe the last couple pages. Solomon spoke with God until he refused to stop worshipping other gods.

robroy1234 wrote: »

....... Baal was the original reference to God and was interchangable with the Tetragrammaton, with the main difference in being that Baal was specific to a location such as Edom or Canaan, whereas Tetragrammaton was primarily associated with the Ark of the Covenant and the Shekina - both were made in the Kingdom of Edom.

Solomon built two temples, again this this all in Kings. Baal wasn't the original reference to God. No expert meself and I wasn't around back then to give proper commentary. Several deities were worshipped by the people of the region. God called on Solomon to make a choice.

From yahoo answers.

The name appropriated to the principal male god of the Phoenicians. It is found in several places in the plural BAALIM (Judges 2:11; 10:10; 1 Kings 18:18; Jeremiah 2:23; Hosea 2:17). Baal is identified with Molech (Jeremiah 19:5). It was known to the Israelites as Baal-peor (Numbers 25:3; Deuteronomy 4:3), was worshipped till the time of Samuel (1 Samuel 7:4), and was afterwards the religion of the ten tribes in the time of Ahab (1 Kings 16:31-33; 18:19,22). It prevailed also for a time in the kingdom of Judah (2 Kings 8:27; comp 11:18; 16:3; 2Chr 28:2), till finally put an end to by the severe discipline of the Captivity (Zephaniah 1:4-6). The priests of Baal were in great numbers (1 Kings 18:19), and of various classes (2 Kings 10:19). Their mode of offering sacrifices is described in 1 Kings 18:25-29. The sun-god, under the general title of Baal, or "lord," was the chief object of worship of the Canaanites. Each locality had its special Baal, and the various local Baals were summed up under the name of Baalim, or "lords." Each Baal had a wife, who was a colourless reflection of himself.

robroy1234

The name Baal means "Lord" which was interchangeable with God. We still say "Lord my God" in Catholicism, therefore we just as well say "Baal my God." For Moses time the Hebrews did not follow a monotheistic religion but a pantheon of gods - God in our perspective would have been "God of Abraham." Each Hebrew tribe/clan/family had a particular deity very similar to a present day notion of a family's guardian saint. It is rather debateable whether it was the Egyptians that introduced the monotheistic sun God the Aten to the Hebrews, or it was due to the Edomites. The Edomites however do have a strong claim to that as Moses brought the tribes into the Kingdom of Edom, Mount Sinai (mount Hor, Mount Seir) was in the Kingdom of Edom and of course the Temple and Treasury of Petra. In a nutshell it is best to think that Baal is a localised version of a regional deity and that Yahweh (Tetragrammaton) is associated with the Ark of the Covenant, the Shekina and the Tabanacle.

robroy1234

Solomon didn't make any choice, you have to look at the schism between the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel to see why Baal is so maligned. It was political expediency and not religious piety on behalf of the Kingdom of Judah for such depiction.

squod

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Solomon didn't make any choice, you have to look at the schism between the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel to see why Baal is so maligned. It was political expediency and not religious piety on behalf of the Kingdom of Judah for such depiction.

Copypasta from Kings.

1And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying,

12Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father:

13And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel.

14So Solomon built the house, and finished it.

The choice.

2That the LORD appeared to Solomon the second time, as he had appeared unto him at Gibeon.
And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

4And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments:

5Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.

6But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:

7Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

Again later.

3And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

4For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

5For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.

6And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.

7Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.

The choice he made.

robroy1234

Tut tut Squod - you are referring from a text that was edited and re-edited by the scribes of the Kingdom of Judah, and it is evident that they completely changed the structure and wording of the Torah to fit its need. However this put them in a situation and if it pleases you I too would quote the Old Testament that indicates that the Kingdom of Judah and Amaziah and Josiah broke the Law of Moses, given the choice they were to pick and choose what suited them out of expediency and not out of piety. The Law of Moses states that the People of Israel were not to war against both Edom and Egypt - for Edom were brothers, and Egypt where once they were slaves. This indicates the dual origin of the monotheism of the Jews.
You must also bear in mind that Jews of that time must not have really thought much about God as a major monotheistic entity, but more of a localised regional deity - considering that King David and Solomon already had a vast palace built well before construction of the temple to house the tabanacle. The later reverence given to God and the tabanacle with the building of the temple is the Phoenician influence which then made Solomon pursue the construction of the temple. This however would be a distasteful idea to the Kingdom of Judah - that it was the Phoenician influence that led to the temple construction and not divine intervention.

squod

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

You must also bear in mind that Jews of that time must not have really thought much about God as a major monotheistic entity, but more of a localised regional deity - considering that King David and Solomon already had a vast palace built well before construction of the temple to house the tabanacle. The later reverence given to God and the tabanacle with the building of the temple is the Phoenician influence which then made Solomon pursue the construction of the temple. This however would be a distasteful idea to the Kingdom of Judah - that it was the Phoenician influence that led to the temple construction and not divine intervention.

More copy pasta which again re-enforces the story from Kings. The Jewish encyclopaedias take on the matter.

The noxious elements in such Ba'al-Worship were not simply the degradation of Yhwh and the enthronement in his place of a baseless superstition. The chief evil arose from the fact that the Ba'als were more than mere religious fantasies. They were made the symbols of the reproductive powers of nature, and thus their worship ministered to sexual indulgences, which it at the same time legalized and encouraged. Further, there was placed side by side with the Ba'al a corresponding female symbol, the Ashtoreth (Babyl. "Ashtar") and the relation between the two deities was set forth as the example and the motive of unbridled sensuality. The evil became all the worse when in the popular view Yhwh himself was regarded as one of the Ba'als and the chief of them (Hosea ii. 16). It was in northern Israel, where agriculture was more followed than in the southern kingdom, that Ba'al-Worship was most insidious and virulent.

Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=2&letter=B&search=ba'al#ixzz1WDgNBCVw

robroy1234 wrote: »

The name Baal means "Lord" which was interchangeable with God.

In no other text have I read is Ba'al, Baal, or Baalim interchangeable with (or equal to as you put it) God. As you can see from the text and from the bible ''lord'' is always spelled in small cases when discussing Ba'al or any lesser god. You have chosen to use capitals. This a freemason thing?

robroy1234

Not a freemason thing at all. I studied biblical archaeology while reading History at University, and even though the bible is riddled with contradictions and errors (especially after the Israel/Judah schism) there are particular clues that relate to the origination of the monotheism of the Abrahamic religions. Baal is just another view of God, but from a different position in the same way that Christianity formed from the origin of Mithraism. Mithraic symbolism is still highly present in Christianity today such as the Mid-winter Mithraic celebration of his birth (25th December) to the wearing of the Mitre by Bishops, archbishops, cardinals and the pope. These historical records do not diminish christianity or any of the Abrahamic religions, but should enrich a greater understanding. Instead too much energy and effort has gone into attempting to destroy and divert attention from such findings that extremism then takes hold. Look at the extremism of the first crusade which was against fellow christians, the cathars in the south of France. Instead of embracing and enhancing the understanding of christianity in full - the catholic church became a very un-christian organisation and premitted wholescale massacre on the population of that region.
I suggest that any further discussion on Baal and religion be placed into a separate forum thread as such discussions on religion is not a subject relating to freemasonry, and my previous replies in such a topic matter are my own personal view and in no way related to freemasonry

Emiko

A money making group.

Do the Freemasons engage in any type of mind de-conditioning (and I don't mean that in any negative sense) with a view to any sort of enlightenment?

robroy1234

Emiko - No...there is absolutely no mind-controlling going on at all and if there is then it is not working - as I am very much a free-willed person. Also you cannot achieve "enlightenment" if you are not in control of your own thoughts and ideas. Enlightenment is about your own personal sight of seeing the light - which is particular and personal to yourself alone. We are available to guide and support one on that journey, but there is no control or dictation and I for one have no interest in controlling or dictating what other people deem as being important to themselves.

Emiko

A money making group.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Emiko - No...there is absolutely no mind-controlling going on at all and if there is then it is not working - as I am very much a free-willed person. Also you cannot achieve "enlightenment" if you are not in control of your own thoughts and ideas. Enlightenment is about your own personal sight of seeing the light - which is particular and personal to yourself alone. We are available to guide and support one on that journey, but there is no control or dictation and I for one have no interest in controlling or dictating what other people deem as being important to themselves.

I don't mean mind control, or anything negative like that.

I'm thinking more along the lines of stuff like meditation, which is a form of mind de-conditioning.

The rituals you do, for instance. Do they have a specific goal in mind in relation to bringing about a psychological change in the initiate?

robroy1234

As far as I can tell, there is no meditation going on at all, unless you include nodding off...ha ha. I guess there is a feeling of sense of well-being after the meetings but in one perspective this may be more in relief that one hasn't forgotten the lines.

kmurray

I have to say that this is exactly what I wanted when I posted the poll. Informed discussion from different points of view.
I will admit I found it strange that the poll resurfaced after 3 years but these things happen.

Finnbar01

Robroy1234, are gardaí allowed to join the freemasons?

robroy1234

Yes - any man over the age of 21, in good standing in the neighbourhood, and believe in a supreme being. But, being a Gardai makes no difference at all with the decision to accept or decline a potential initiate.

Finnbar01

robroy1234 wrote: »

Yes - any man over the age of 21, in good standing in the neighbourhood, and believe in a supreme being. But, being a Gardai makes no difference at all with the decision to accept or decline a potential initiate.

Thanks for that.

Ok, so here's the problem. When a person joins the gardaí, aren't they prevent from joining groups, say a poltical party or the freemasons? Isn't that in the garda rules? So, if a garda does join the freemasons, isn't he now in dishonour because he's broken the rules he signed up to and will therefore have to be kicked out or prevented from joining in the first place. Also Roman Catholics are not allowed to join according to the rules of the Church.

BTW, I don't care if garda join the freemasons or not, just a bit of a debate that's all.

Edit: Also can you aske to join the freemasons or do they have to approach you?

Absolam

A money making group.

I think EU law prevents the Gardaí from restricting their members being members of legal organisations (there's another thread about which details a court case in the UK where the EU prevented the UK Police from requiring policemen to declare their memberships of private organisations). The Catholic Church does say that members of the Freemasons subsist in a state of grave sin, and obviously therefore should not take communion without confessing and receiving absolution for that sin.

Freemasonry won't prevent someone from being a member because they're in another organisation that does not approve of Freemasonry; that's between the candidate and their organisation, whether civil or religious. The closest we would come to that would be if a candidates family/spouse didn't approve of the Freemasons we would encourage them to seriously reconsider joining, as they would not enjoy their membership if the people closest to them didn't approve of it.

Richard tea

A group to make contacts.

I once read that a black man cant join the freemasons or they can but cannot progress through the ranks as a white person would ( cannot find source so could be BS ) Is there any truth to this? And just out of interest, Can any freemasons here say if there is any black people in their lodge?

robroy1234

When a person joins the gardaí, aren't they prevent from joining groups, say a poltical party or the freemasons? Isn't that in the garda rules? So, if a garda does join the freemasons, isn't he now in dishonour because he's broken the rules he signed up to and will therefore have to be kicked out or prevented from joining in the first place. Also Roman Catholics are not allowed to join according to the rules of the Church.

BTW, I don't care if garda join the freemasons or not, just a bit of a debate that's all.

Edit: Also can you aske to join the freemasons or do they have to approach you?

Totally untrue - I have met many brother freemasons who are in the Gardai, the IDF, the PSNI and The British Army - and there is absolutely no problem at all. It is not at all illegal or contrary to their duty as a Gardai or for that matter as a citizen of Ireland. As a catholic myself, there was no problem or conflict with myself becoming a freemason. The problem lies with the hierarchy of the church and nothing to do with whatever faith I have. Therefore we stipulate that there is nothing contrary to the law of the land within masonry and that religion and politics are strictly forbidden to be discussed before, during and after lodge meetings.

I once read that a black man cant join the freemasons or they can but cannot progress through the ranks as a white person would ( cannot find source so could be BS ) Is there any truth to this? And just out of interest, Can any freemasons here say if there is any black people in their lodge?

Again absolutely untrue. We cannot and will not discriminate against any man with colour, race or creed - that would be completely unmasonic as well as immoral and unethical. As a mason we welcome any man, over the age of 21, be of good standing in one's neighbourhood, and believe in a supreme being - this regardless of race, colour or creed.

Kernel

A satanic cult.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Totally untrue - I have met many brother freemasons who are in the Gardai, the IDF, the PSNI and The British Army - and there is absolutely no problem at all. It is not at all illegal or contrary to their duty as a Gardai or for that matter as a citizen of Ireland.

Part of the Garda Oath sworn before attestation (getting the badge) is that they will not be a part of any political part or secret society. In fact, I believe that freemasonry is actually specifically mentioned in the oath.

hooradiation

A money making group.

Kernel wrote: »

Part of the Garda Oath sworn before attestation (getting the badge) is that they will not be a part of any political part or secret society. In fact, I believe that freemasonry is actually specifically mentioned in the oath.

Half right.

Section 16(1) of the Garda Síochána Act 2005 requires each member of the Garda Síochána to make the following Solemn declaration when they are appointed :-

"I hereby solemnly and sincerely declare before God that—
-I will faithfully discharge the duties of a member of the Garda Síochána with fairness, integrity, regard for human rights, diligence and impartiality, upholding the Constitution and the laws and according equal respect to all people,
-while I continue to be a member, I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all my duties according to law, and
-I do not belong to, and will not while I remain a member form, belong to or subscribe to, any political party or secret society whatsoever.”.

Section 16(2) allows the words “before God” to be omitted from the declaration at the request of the declarant.

So no to secret societies, but it does not explicitly mention the freemasons.

My guess is the freemasons aren't secret enough to count - but that's only a guess, I can't find a definitive answer on the subject of a member of an Garda Síochána being a freemason anywhere.

robroy1234

Well - we certainly have freemasons who are Gardai - but I can't see any problem at all. We certainly aren't secret nor have any nefarious agenda against the state. From what I am aware off was that the British Government had a policy against freemasonry, especially in Northern Ireland, this is because all the masons in Northern Ireland fall under the authority of the Grand Lodge of Ireland in Dublin, and that the British Government was uneasy that PSNI and British military personnel who are masons.

But, considering that most political and business deals are made on the golf course such as Brian Cowen and Sean Fitzpatrick played golf the day before the Loan Guarantee, and other such shady deals - should there be a oath then made about being a member of a golf club?

Yitzhak Rabin

A money making group.

hooradiation wrote: »

Half right.



So no to secret societies, but it does not explicitly mention the freemasons.

My guess is the freemasons aren't secret enough to count - but that's only a guess, I can't find a definitive answer on the subject of a member of an Garda Síochána being a freemason anywhere.

Exactly, the freemasons aren't a secret society.

They publish their meeting times and locations. Its no more secret than a tennis club.

saywhatyousee

A group to make contacts.

Richard tea wrote: »

I once read that a black man cant join the freemasons or they can but cannot progress through the ranks as a white person would ( cannot find source so could be BS ) Is there any truth to this? And just out of interest, Can any freemasons here say if there is any black people in their lodge?

Blacks have what is called "Prince hall" freemasonry the rituals are slightly different and so are the levels.Any Mason from the York or Scottish rite can walk into a prince hall lodge,but a member of the prince hall lodge cannot walk into a York or Scottish meeting.Seems a bit unfair

saywhatyousee

A group to make contacts.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Well - we certainly have freemasons who are Gardai - but I can't see any problem at all.?

Is that not against the oath they took when becoming a member of the gardai?
"I do not belong,and will not while i remain a member form,belong to or subscribe to,any political party,or secret society"

Absolam

A money making group.

saywhatyousee wrote: »

Blacks have what is called "Prince hall" freemasonry the rituals are slightly different and so are the levels.Any Mason from the York or Scottish rite can walk into a prince hall lodge,but a member of the prince hall lodge cannot walk into a York or Scottish meeting.Seems a bit unfair

Prince Hall Freemasonry was established in America when there was still an effective apartheid; negroes could no more join a Masonic lodge than drink in a bar for white people. I believe Prince Hall Masonry was originally based on Irish Constitution masonry, and we had a couple of Prince Hall Masons visit my lodge in Dublin last year. I'm not sure about them not being allowed to visit York or Scottish rite lodges... I can't see why that might be?

Absolam

A money making group.

saywhatyousee wrote: »

Is that not against the oath they took when becoming a member of the gardai?
"I do not belong,and will not while i remain a member form,belong to or subscribe to,any political party,or secret society"

Freemasonry is not a secret society; our meeting places are known to the rulers of the state (in my own case directly across the road from Dail Eireann ), and our laws an constitutions are published and available to anyone who wants them.