The Freemasons

Absolam

A money making group.

Kernel wrote: »

Am I wrong then?

Not that you'll believe anything anyone says that disagrees with your point of view, but yes you are wrong.

Is the oath I posted wrong then? If so, where can I find the correct one?

Yes, it's wrong. In fact, if you took the time to actually read what you posted, instead of simply cutting and pasting from elsewhere, you'd see for yourself that it couldn't possibly be right. It's pretty obvious. I'm sure that there is somewhere on the Internet that someone has posted the correct oaths, but the only place you can be absolutely certain of finding the correct one, is in a Lodge of Freemasons, when the oath is being taken.

You're a true brother Absolam. A poor widow's son, no doubt. The party line for freemasonry is easy to identify here. The whole nonsensical - we're not a secret society, all our meeting locations are published etc. not a word about the rites however. :rolleyes:

Really? How do you know? Let's get down to the crux of it then; if we tell you everything there is to know about Freemasonry, except for 'the rites', you'll maintain that we're a secret society with a 'party line'? If we provide you with full text for 'the rites', you'll clear us a regular members of society? Or is there something else that drives you to spout what you think are Masonic phrases, and copy other people's versions of oaths. You seem to want everyone to think you know a lot about Freemasonry, yet on the other hand claim we're using a party line to hide our secrets. What is it you want to know, really? Or do you just want everyone to admit you are the master of all secret knowledge, despite the entire world trying to keep you from it?

squod

A group to make contacts.

Absolam wrote: »

I'm sure that there is somewhere on the Internet that someone has posted the correct oaths, but the only place you can be absolutely certain of finding the correct one, is in a Lodge of Freemasons, when the oath is being taken.

Post up the oath from your lodge. Or is that secret?

Absolam

A money making group.

The oath itself is not a secret, but the oath I took was a solemn undertaking, personal to me. I would personally feel it disrespectful and demeaning to repeat it purely for the entertainment of others. That's just my take, there may be other Masons who feel differently.

Kernel

A satanic cult.

Absolam wrote: »

Not that you'll believe anything anyone says that disagrees with your point of view, but yes you are wrong.

Let me get this straight then. In freemasonry there are no secret rites and no secret knowledge which the member gains through advancement? Are you seriously telling us this?

Absolam wrote: »

Yes, it's wrong. In fact, if you took the time to actually read what you posted, instead of simply cutting and pasting from elsewhere, you'd see for yourself that it couldn't possibly be right. It's pretty obvious. I'm sure that there is somewhere on the Internet that someone has posted the correct oaths, but the only place you can be absolutely certain of finding the correct one, is in a Lodge of Freemasons, when the oath is being taken.

Post the correct oath then? Ah, but you refuse to do that. So we are to take it on face value that this oath is not the correct one, yet you refuse to produce evidence to support yourself.....

Absolam wrote: »

Really? How do you know? Let's get down to the crux of it then; if we tell you everything there is to know about Freemasonry, except for 'the rites', you'll maintain that we're a secret society with a 'party line'? If we provide you with full text for 'the rites', you'll clear us a regular members of society? Or is there something else that drives you to spout what you think are Masonic phrases, and copy other people's versions of oaths. You seem to want everyone to think you know a lot about Freemasonry, yet on the other hand claim we're using a party line to hide our secrets. What is it you want to know, really? Or do you just want everyone to admit you are the master of all secret knowledge, despite the entire world trying to keep you from it?

That's some nonsense there ^^^ Really, don't know where to start with it.... well done on your excellent psychoanalysis of me though. No really, spot on old bean. :pac:

Absolam

A money making group.

Kernel wrote: »

Let me get this straight then. In freemasonry there are no secret rites and no secret knowledge which the member gains through advancement? Are you seriously telling us this?

Rites are religious; Freemasonry is not a religion. Secret knowledge implies some sort of esoteric information; this is not the case. The concept of advancement is also misleading; there are three levels of Freemasonry, and degrees outside of those three are not advances, they're appendant. Of course there are secrets imparted to members, just not in the way you're claiming.

Post the correct oath then? Ah, but you refuse to do that. So we are to take it on face value that this oath is not the correct one, yet you refuse to produce evidence to support yourself.....

I don't need to support myself, I've taken my oaths and know what's in them. If you want to know for sure if what you posted is accurate, read it through. It doesn't take much to figure out how it's wrong.

That's some nonsense there ^^^ Really, don't know where to start with it.... well done on your excellent psychoanalysis of me though. No really, spot on old bean. :pac:

Really? I'm not all that interested in your state of mind, I just thought you might want to spit out whatever it is you're trying to achieve here.

Kernel

A satanic cult.

Absolam wrote: »

Rites are religious; Freemasonry is not a religion.

Never said it was a religion. As for rites:

rite   [rahyt] Show IPA
noun
1.
a formal or ceremonial act or procedure prescribed or customary in religious or other solemn use: rites of baptism; sacrificial rites.

Stop twisting words and admit what everybody already knows - that freemasonry is a secret society.

Absolam wrote: »

Secret knowledge implies some sort of esoteric information; this is not the case.

Implies? :rolleyes: Look, secret knowledge - knowledge that is not revealed immediately upon joining, but is revealed later.

Absolam wrote: »

The concept of advancement is also misleading; there are three levels of Freemasonry, and degrees outside of those three are not advances, they're appendant.

Whether you call it advancement or use another term, I use the Queen's English. Advancement - you progress or advance within the organisation. Otherwise there would only be one degree surely.

Absolam wrote: »

Of course there are secrets imparted to members, just not in the way you're claiming.

What way exactly am I claiming?

Absolam wrote: »

I don't need to support myself, I've taken my oaths and know what's in them. If you want to know for sure if what you posted is accurate, read it through. It doesn't take much to figure out how it's wrong.

Grand, you won't post your oath, to support your argument with evidence. This is because you are sworn to secrecy on the matter, isn't it. Hence, the whole secret society thing.....

Absolam wrote: »

Really? I'm not all that interested in your state of mind, I just thought you might want to spit out whatever it is you're trying to achieve here.

I posted because your claim that freemasonry is not a secret society is a nonsense. And as such, Gardaí are sworn not to join a secret society. I have proven what I set out to prove, QED in the thread. It has also shown, however, that you have a habit of subverting things to suit yourself, ergo, I conclude that if you are indicative of the organisation, then the organisation is actually a subversive organisation dealing in lies and half-truths.

You've turned me against freemasonry, though what you have demonstrated, to be quite honest.

Kernel

A satanic cult.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Kernel - the best thing about Freemasonry is the friendship and brotherhood between members, and that we all share a great sense of humour. Something that you are desperately lacking.

From what I gather from your rants not only would I be completely wary of you, and no doubt consider you a quack - with feathers, bill and webbed feet. I enjoy my membership and will continue to do so, and happily not lose any sleep over your insane paranoia.

Hmmm, I've reported this as personal abuse. Mods seem not too bothered.

Anyway, enjoy your membership robroy1234. I question anybody who knowingly joins an organisation when they don't even know what it's all about upon joining.... But hey, that's just a quack like me.

hooradiation

A money making group.

This thread has done more to convince me that there might be worth in joining the masons than anything else.

So I guess they're breaking even.

humanji

Kernel wrote: »

Hmmm, I've reported this as personal abuse. Mods seem not too bothered.

Apologies, that report seems to have slipped through the cracks.


Robroy1234 infracted for personal abuse.

Kernel

A satanic cult.

hooradiation wrote: »

This thread has done more to convince me that there might be worth in joining the masons than anything else.

So I guess they're breaking even.

Each to their own. Initially I liked the thread and am all for the 'advancement of man and helping each other out' philosophy, but when pressed we have scientology-style Orwellian double-speak and outright obfuscation and truth-interpretation....

A person will appear calm and amiable when you are in agreement with the lie or agenda - until you probe a little deeper into the truth they are trying to obscure. Then the true nature tends to surface. I believe that is what we have seen here.

humanji wrote:

Apologies, that report seems to have slipped through the cracks.

No apology necessary, thanks humanji.

robroy1234

scientology-style Orwellian double-speak and outright obfuscation and truth-interpretation....

How Erudite of you - just flicking through a dictionary and trying to use that sounds intelligent, but you have however mentioned my favourite author even though somewhat misinterpreted, but that is a usual mistake often made. But, however I am more concerned about how sensitive you are. We should all be able enough to take a bit of stick and at least have a laugh at each other.

You are taking us far too seriously and have some sort of idea that we are engaged in some sort of conspiracy or some underhand business. So you have no need to be so extreme and violently opposed to what is benign organisation and just let a few old fellas enjoy our little social club.

robroy1234

Humanji - that is not personal abuse - I don't even know Kernal....and this thread is a light hearted and topical so ranting and raving about conspiracies and the like are extremely nonsensical and cannot be taken seriously. If you have a good look at size and amount of his previous posts from Kernal you can see for yourself that this is not someone whom accepts another person's position. He has constantly attacked and berated other people on this thread, cutting, pasting, quoting and even stating oaths that are not part of the Irish constitution as well as other people's contribution. It looks very much like Kernal is Trolling...

Absolam

A money making group.

Kernel wrote: »

Never said it was a religion.
Stop twisting words and admit what everybody already knows - that freemasonry is a secret society.

. I'm not twisting words, I'm being specific. I've been a Mason quite some time; I've never participated in any rites.

Implies? :rolleyes: Look, secret knowledge - knowledge that is not revealed immediately upon joining, but is revealed later.

. Like... Who's on the Cumann committee? What the company Kris Kindle scheme is? Where the nearest bar to the tennis club is? Stuff like that?

Whether you call it advancement or use another term, I use the Queen's English. Advancement - you progress or advance within the organisation. Otherwise there would only be one degree surely. What way exactly am I claiming?

. Advancement and appendant are both Queens English, they just mean different things. You are trying to give the impression of a structure of advancement which imparts esoteric knowledge in greater degree, so that those at the top know more 'secret stuff' than those at the bottom. That's not Freemasonry, it's just a CT fantasy.

Grand, you won't post your oath, to support your argument with evidence. This is because you are sworn to secrecy on the matter, isn't it. Hence, the whole secret society thing.....

. I did actually say why I won't post my oath. If that's 'grand', why do you need to make up another reason for me?

I posted because your claim that freemasonry is not a secret society is a nonsense. And as such, Gardaí are sworn not to join a secret society. I have proven what I set out to prove, QED in the thread. It has also shown, however, that you have a habit of subverting things to suit yourself, ergo, I conclude that if you are indicative of the organisation, then the organisation is actually a subversive organisation dealing in lies and half-truths.

. you posted because you think it's nonsense. I'm quite prepared to accept your point about the Gardai as soon as you provide evidence of them taking action against a member of the force for being a Freemason and breaking his oath as a Garda. Until then, it's your opinion that the Freemasons are a secret society and the Gardai treat them as such and are oath bound not to be members. Your opinion, not a fact.

You've turned me against freemasonry, though what you have demonstrated, to be quite honest.

Really? That would actually upset me, if you had come to the discussion as a person genuinely curious about Freemasonry. But since you've been posting anti Masonic jabs on this site for the better part of 3 years, I guess I'm not really that bothered.

Kernel

A satanic cult.

robroy1234 wrote: »

How Erudite of you - just flicking through a dictionary and trying to use that sounds intelligent

How glib of you to make such an incorrect assumption, apropos my use of the word 'obfuscation'. :rolleyes:

robroy1234 wrote: »

You are taking us far too seriously and have some sort of idea that we are engaged in some sort of conspiracy or some underhand business.

Really, where have I said that? Perhaps you're a mind-reader as well as a psychoanalyst and judge of intelligence.

robroy1234 wrote: »

So you have no need to be so extreme and violently opposed to what is benign organisation and just let a few old fellas enjoy our little social club.

Again, a crude and slanderous tactic employed to debase my argument against you. Suggesting I am extremist and violently opposed to your 'benign organisation'. Nonsense, I just don't take you at face value when your stance flies in the face of logic and any independent thinker.

Kernel

A satanic cult.

Absolam wrote: »

. I'm not twisting words, I'm being specific. I've been a Mason quite some time; I've never participated in any rites.

You've never participated in any ceremonial acts as a freemason? Ridiculous!

Absolam wrote: »

. Like... Who's on the Cumann committee? What the company Kris Kindle scheme is? Where the nearest bar to the tennis club is? Stuff like that?

Please stop trying to use the analogy of freemasonry being comparable to a tennis club. It's insulting people's intelligence here tbh. And you've again dodged the question/point altogether.

Absolam wrote: »

. Advancement and appendant are both Queens English, they just mean different things. You are trying to give the impression of a structure of advancement which imparts esoteric knowledge in greater degree, so that those at the top know more 'secret stuff' than those at the bottom. That's not Freemasonry, it's just a CT fantasy.

No, I made the point that through advancement (you call it 'appendant' - obfuscation again, since the dictionary term for that word makes no sense to me in the context) you learn secret knowledge. Secret knowledge - secret society. You denied this, now you are simply trying to wriggle about. I think I've exposed you at this stage, and wonder if there is much point to continuing this merry jig.

Absolam wrote: »

. I did actually say why I won't post my oath. If that's 'grand', why do you need to make up another reason for me?
. you posted because you think it's nonsense.

You 'alleged' that the reason you wont post your oath is because it is personal to you. I assume there are standard oaths for each lodge. Therefore, I conclude that the reason you refuse to post your oath is because it is either declared to be a secret from us profane, or else it utterly contradicts your argument. I vote for both the former and the latter.

Absolam wrote: »

I'm quite prepared to accept your point about the Gardai as soon as you provide evidence of them taking action against a member of the force for being a Freemason and breaking his oath as a Garda. Until then, it's your opinion that the Freemasons are a secret society and the Gardai treat them as such and are oath bound not to be members. Your opinion, not a fact.

Come now, you cannot be serious. Because the Gardaí have not taken disciplinary action against a member does not imply that such a thing is allowed when one can clearly see, in the legislation, that membership of any secret society whatsoever is expressly forbidden. I think I've already proven that freemasonry is a secret-society regardless of how much you insist on your claim that it is, instead, a 'society with secrets'.

Absolam wrote: »

Really? That would actually upset me, if you had come to the discussion as a person genuinely curious about Freemasonry. But since you've been posting anti Masonic jabs on this site for the better part of 3 years, I guess I'm not really that bothered.

You must be very interested in me, if you have read through 3 years of posts. Can you provide the evidence for the rest of the good people on this forum? I know masons and ex masons and get on quite well with them. I know a lot more besides, but I choose not to reveal my hand on a public forum Absolam. I have been 50/50 with regard to freemasonry, but reading this discussion, the lies, the obfuscation, the half-truths etc., has actually given me more enlightenment into the true nature of freemasonry - through the attitude and seeming scotomas of it's own members.

I really think further debate is pointless at this stage, unless you have something new to bring to the discussion.

Kernel

A satanic cult.

robroy1234 wrote: »

He has constantly attacked and berated other people on this thread, cutting, pasting, quoting and even stating oaths that are not part of the Irish constitution

Btw, you've lost me here. The Irish Constitution?

robroy1234

Absolam - Kernal is trolling and trying to prove that he is far more intelligent and knowledgeable than everyone else, even to the point of stating that he knows more about freemasonry than yourself and others. Best just to ignore him and let him go his way as no one likes a miserable begrudger....

Absolam

A money making group.

Kernel wrote: »

You've never participated in any ceremonial acts as a freemason? Ridiculous!

But, but, you said you didn't like people twisting words! You said it made you doubt their veracity. Is your veracity doubtful?

Kernel wrote: »

Please stop trying to use the analogy of freemasonry being comparable to a tennis club. It's insulting people's intelligence here tbh. And you've again dodged the question/point altogether.

So... are you admitting all organisations have secret knowledge per your definition, or do you want to specify what you're on about with regard to Freemasonry? Not trying to insult your intelligence tbh, just to get you to make a clear point.

Kernel wrote: »

No, I made the point that through advancement (you call it 'appendant' - obfuscation again, since the dictionary term for that word makes no sense to me in the context) you learn secret knowledge. Secret knowledge - secret society. You denied this, now you are simply trying to wriggle about. I think I've exposed you at this stage, and wonder if there is much point to continuing this merry jig.

And I made the point that there is no advancement as you've put it, but there are appendant degrees. Clarifying your point, not obfuscating it.

Kernel wrote: »

You 'alleged' that the reason you wont post your oath is because it is personal to you. I assume there are standard oaths for each lodge. Therefore, I conclude that the reason you refuse to post your oath is because it is either declared to be a secret from us profane, or else it utterly contradicts your argument. I vote for both the former and the latter.

Wow... if I give my own reasons for what I do, then I'm making allegations? But when you 'assume' and 'conclude' we should take that as 'veracity'? I must say calling yourself profane would seem to be putting yourself down, which is so not in character. But I love that if I don't tell you something, you can both fabricate a 'why' and then declare I'm contradicting my own argument with my own lack of statement. Bravo!

Kernel wrote: »

Come now, you cannot be serious. Because the Gardaí have not taken disciplinary action against a member does not imply that such a thing is allowed when one can clearly see, in the legislation, that membership of any secret society whatsoever is expressly forbidden. I think I've already proven that freemasonry is a secret-society regardless of how much you insist on your claim that it is, instead, a 'society with secrets'.

Come now indeed... believing something is the case without evidence is pure faith. You are demonstrating enormous faith in your own conclusion, but can't support it with any evidence. Therefore your conclusion lacks veracity. Repeating to yourself over and over that Freemasonry is a secret society isn't proving your point, it's just repeating yourself. Really, I'm beginning to grow more suspicious of the Kernel agenda now.

Kernel wrote: »

You must be very interested in me, if you have read through 3 years of posts. Can you provide the evidence for the rest of the good people on this forum? I know masons and ex masons and get on quite well with them. I know a lot more besides, but I choose not to reveal my hand on a public forum Absolam. I have been 50/50 with regard to freemasonry, but reading this discussion, the lies, the obfuscation, the half-truths etc., has actually given me more enlightenment into the true nature of freemasonry - through the attitude and seeming scotomas of it's own members.

Lest you feel overly flattered it was a mere matter of seconds, barely any trouble at all. Less trouble that you went to in finding your spurious oath I suspect. For any who wish to review the evidence: One clicks Kernels name, then selects 'Find More Posts by Kernel'. Review at your leisure, and see for yourself if Kernel has been '50/50 with regard to freemasonry' over the last few years. So you 'know a lot more besides' eh? I refer to my post #402.

Kernel wrote: »

I really think further debate is pointless at this stage, unless you have something new to bring to the discussion.

I don't recall there ever being a debate... you weighed in to tell us your opinions were fact, that anyone who disagreed with you lacked veracity, that anyone who called you out was abusing you, and that you know much more than you're letting on. What did you actually debate?

hooradiation

A money making group.

Kernel wrote: »

Each to their own. Initially I liked the thread and am all for the 'advancement of man and helping each other out' philosophy, but when pressed we have scientology-style Orwellian double-speak and outright obfuscation and truth-interpretation....

A person will appear calm and amiable when you are in agreement with the lie or agenda - until you probe a little deeper into the truth they are trying to obscure. Then the true nature tends to surface. I believe that is what we have seen here.

The people who say that they are free masons in this thread have been very diplomatic in the face of constant questioning and an almost constant insistence that they are liars.

I cannot say I'd be as kind were I in their shoes and for that they have my respect.

robroy1234

Hooradiation - Being called a liar or ignorant of the rituals and upper echelons of freemasonry is part of the course and I am well used to it. I find it rather amusing to read and hear about all these things that we are supposed to be doing, especially when these people assert that these subversive things go on in the lodge. I must be either asleep or not paying attention....however, there is no need for these people to get so worked up and angry about something as benign as us freemasons, especially when they are impervious to humour....

Yitzhak Rabin

A money making group.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Hooradiation - Being called a liar or ignorant of the rituals and upper echelons of freemasonry is part of the course and I am well used to it. I find it rather amusing to read and hear about all these things that we are supposed to be doing, especially when these people assert that these subversive things go on in the lodge. I must be either asleep or not paying attention....however, there is no need for these people to get so worked up and angry about something as benign as us freemasons, especially when they are impervious to humour....

To be fair that's not unknown to happen

robroy1234

Sorry - I nodded off just then......did I miss something??? We do have one fella who zones out during meetings and seems baffled most of the time....but enough about me...

Kernel

A satanic cult.

Absolam wrote: »

But, but, you said you didn't like people twisting words! You said it made you doubt their veracity. Is your veracity doubtful?

I didn't twist words, ceremonial acts is in the definition of 'rites' which I posted. Congratulations on wriggling out of another point however.

Absolam wrote: »

So... are you admitting all organisations have secret knowledge per your definition, or do you want to specify what you're on about with regard to Freemasonry? Not trying to insult your intelligence tbh, just to get you to make a clear point.

This is really getting tedious... No, I do not concede that a tennis club is a secret society. Comparing freemasonry to a tennis or golf club is stretching it too far.

Absolam wrote: »

And I made the point that there is no advancement as you've put it, but there are appendant degrees. Clarifying your point, not obfuscating it.

There's no point continuing our discussion. Not worth my time. I think everybody can read over the posts and come to their own conclusion at this stage.

Kernel

A satanic cult.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Absolam - Kernal is trolling and trying to prove that he is far more intelligent and knowledgeable than everyone else, even to the point of stating that he knows more about freemasonry than yourself and others. Best just to ignore him and let him go his way as no one likes a miserable begrudger....

Well, you failed to answer my question on your Irish constitution point? As for trolling, that's yet another ridiculous statement. I'm curious as to why you think I'm a miserable begrudger for calling you lads out on some points?

Absolam

A money making group.

Kernel wrote: »

There's no point continuing our discussion. I think everybody can read over the posts and come to their own conclusion at this stage.

I'm hanging out the flags. That was unambiguous, not leading or inflammatory, and I agree.

robroy1234

Kernel - The constitution I am referring to is the constitution of the Grand Lodge of Ireland. As for trolling, that is because no matter what answer you get, you call that person a liar and then go on the extreme with your own views being superior to others. You therefore assume that you know more than everyone else and intellectually superior. As for begrudgery - that is pretty obvious, your insistence that you should decide what we can do in our own private lives, and with what organisations we are allowed to be members off. If there was anyone on this thread that resembles more the Orwellian big brother, it will be you.

Emme

Kernel wrote: »

IThis is really getting tedious... No, I do not concede that a tennis club is a secret society. Comparing freemasonry to a tennis or golf club is stretching it too far.

I think freemasonry compares very well to a golf club, particularly a golf club that doesn't admit women. OK, freemasonry has very different origins to a golf club and the activities of both clubs are vastly different but at the end of the day most people join a golf club or the freemasons to make social and business contacts.

Despite popular opinion I would say that the networking aspect of freemasonry is a bigger deal to most masons than the society with secrets aspect.

robroy1234

Emme - we are not permitted to make any business deal or contacts at all in the lodges, and I for one would never even use my membership for any such activity. It is however great for a social group. As for golf - my language and temperment would be inappropriate for such a pasttime. There are women freemasons, but none I am aware of are based here in Ireland - but women do have the ICA - a really subversive group if you ask me.

Emme

robroy1234 wrote: »

There are women freemasons, but none I am aware of are based here in Ireland - but women do have the ICA - a really subversive group if you ask me.

What's subversive about the ICA? They have a stand at the Ploughing Championships in Athy if you're anywhere near there today. You can ask them why learning to cook from proper ingredients, recycle your clothes, money management or any other such skills are subversive. The ICA is traditionally associated with strong women, maybe that's what's seen as subversive.

I don't believe that freemasons don't eventually make business deals or contacts through freemasonry. They might not do it directly but I bet it happens.

robroy1234

Emme - I am being fecetious about the ICA.

I can assure you that no activities such as business deals or business networking takes place in the lodge - that is something which is not permitted in the lodge and I for one would not allow any such activity take place, this also includes any member trying to use the membership as way to promote or engage in such activity outside of the lodge. We are prohibited to discuss politics, religion and business before, during and after lodge meetings, and we are also prohibited to use in anyway membership to promote political/relgious discourse, and to engage in anyway business deals.

Emme

robroy1234 wrote: »

Emme - I am being fecetious about the ICA.

I can assure you that no activities such as business deals or business networking takes place in the lodge - that is something which is not permitted in the lodge and I for one would not allow any such activity take place, this also includes any member trying to use the membership as way to promote or engage in such activity outside of the lodge. We are prohibited to discuss politics, religion and business before, during and after lodge meetings, and we are also prohibited to use in anyway membership to promote political/relgious discourse, and to engage in anyway business deals.

So this means that if you were building a house and wanted an architect you'd seek a non-mason or somebody who isn't in your lodge. Even if the non-masonic architects you met were useless and you had met a very talented architect who happened to be a fellow mason in your lodge.

If a deceased mason's wife was trying to make a go of her late husband's horticulture business would masons not give her some business if they a horticulturalist?

Or do you just not discuss business in the lodge and at masonic meetings? Is it ok to do business with masons outside the confines of the lodge the same way as you do business with anybody else?

robroy1234

So this means that if you were building a house and wanted an architect you'd seek a non-mason or somebody who isn't in your lodge. Even if the non-masonic architects you met were useless and you had met a very talented architect who happened to be a fellow mason in your lodge.

If only I had the money to build a house - but to answer your question. In selecting an Architect I would choose one who was a good, reputable Architect regardless of any affiliation he may have, this applies whether he is a mason or not. If however an Architect came to me with a tender and attempted to use his membership of freemasonry in order to obtain the commission, then he would be in violation of the Grand Lodge of Ireland constitution and thereby I would obliged to report such inappropriate behaviour. That mason would then be asked to leave the organisation, as such behaviour is not acceptable.

If a deceased mason's wife was trying to make a go of her late husband's horticulture business would masons not give her some business if they a horticulturalist?

In relation to a deceased mason's wife and family, we have members who go and visit with them and offer support and comfort. We provide a charitable trust which for a son/daughter of a deceased Brother Mason can continue their education. But, in relation to giving preferential treatment to a business because of such a situation as mentioned - it would be again inappropriate to give such preferential treatment. As I have said we provide comfort and support to widows and family of a deceased brother mason - this is the same with other organisations such as the Knights of St. Columba and the Catenians whom supported my mother when my father passed away. My father was a leading member of both.

Or do you just not discuss business in the lodge and at masonic meetings? Is it ok to do business with masons outside the confines of the lodge the same way as you do business with anybody else?

It is strictly prohibited to attempt to discuss business or try to set up a business network within the lodge or use the lodge as a means to promote a business. But, it is ok to do business with masons outside the confines of the lodge the same way as you do business with anybody else - but, in no can any preferential treatment be given to a brother mason in light of such business, and that being a member of the lodge has in no influenced the decision to engage in such business.

Believe me, I am very much strict with this as much as I am strict with any discussion of religion and politics within the lodge.

robroy1234

We have to be strict in terms of discussing business, politics and religion, as such matters would disrupt the harmony of the lodge. The three founding principles of freemasonry are Brotherly love, Relief and Truth. Brotherly Love means that we are to be in harmony with each and meet in friendship. We are to be courteous and respectful to each other. We are taught to be fair, honest, and be straight to each other and to our neighbours. We therefore welcome visiting brothers and we also go out and visit other lodges whenever possible.
Relief - comes from the medieval tradition of the StoneMason's guild, where the work used to be quite dangerous with unstable or loose masonry, therefore injury or death would mean destitution to a mason and his family, therefore Relief is provided to those whom are in need.
Truth - relates to the principles that we hold dear, that we stick to human and natural laws as laid down in the bible (Torah, Koran, Vedas..etc.,)

Kernel

A satanic cult.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Kernel - The constitution I am referring to is the constitution of the Grand Lodge of Ireland.

I wasn't aware there was such a thing. What is the Irish Constitution of the Grand Lodge of Ireland? If you post it here, I'm sure it will clarify matters.

robroy1234 wrote: »

As for trolling, that is because no matter what answer you get, you call that person a liar and then go on the extreme with your own views being superior to others.

That would simply be me being obstinate and stubborn, rather than trolling to deliberately inflame, surely? And I tried not to post my own views, sticking instead to facts such as dictionary references to words, and Irish legislation.

robroy1234 wrote: »

You therefore assume that you know more than everyone else and intellectually superior.

Not at all, I just don't appreciate people trying to hoodwink me. I think I've already stated in this thread that I am far from an expert on your craft - hardly the words of one who .assumes he knows more than everyone else'.

robroy1234 wrote: »

As for begrudgery - that is pretty obvious, your insistence that you should decide what we can do in our own private lives, and with what organisations we are allowed to be members off.

You let slip when you used the word 'begrudgery'. It shows you feel that you are somewhat privileged or accomplished in that you are a freemason. That would indicate that the notion of the non-freemasons being the 'profane' is also correct.

robroy1234 wrote: »

If there was anyone on this thread that resembles more the Orwellian big brother, it will be you.

Hehe.. yes.

robroy1234

I wasn't aware there was such a thing. What is the Irish Constitution of the Grand Lodge of Ireland? If you post it here, I'm sure it will clarify matters

Kernel - you were steamrolling us and stating that you knew more about freemasonry than any of us. Constitution is available at the Grand Lodge of Ireland, Molesworth Street.

That would simply be me being obstinate and stubborn, rather than trolling to deliberately inflame, surely? And I tried not to post my own views, sticking instead to facts such as dictionary references to words, and Irish legislation.

You were putting in own views forward and rejected right out off hand any of our answers, stating that they were Scientology-type Orwellian double-speak - I am pretty sure that Scientology and Orwell are not referenced together in any dictionary. As for the Irish Legislation, there is nothing in freemasonry that is contrary to the Irish Constitution or to the State.

Not at all, I just don't appreciate people trying to hoodwink me

No one was being hoodwinked - just yourself not accepting any argument that supported your own position.

You let slip when you used the word 'begrudgery'. It shows you feel that you are somewhat privileged or accomplished in that you are a freemason. That would indicate that the notion of the non-freemasons being the 'profane' is also correct

I use the term begrudgery to show that you are more offended by what we would choose to do in our own private time. I assume that you would feel exactly the same towards any group of people that you feel excluded from. There is absolutely nothing profane about not being a freemason. I am a freemason out of my free will and choice, so there is nothing profane about being a non-mason, and there shouldn't be any animosity from people such as yourself.

Emiko

A money making group.

For anyone interested, the Freemason's headquarters in Molesworth St., Dublin, is open to the public today from 5pm, as part of Culture Night.

http://www.culturenight.ie/2011/05/freemasons-hall/

Kernel

A satanic cult.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Kernel - you were steamrolling us and stating that you knew more about freemasonry than any of us. Constitution is available at the Grand Lodge of Ireland, Molesworth Street.

Where did I state I knew more about freemasonry than anyone else? Can you post the Constitution up here for us? How about the oath sworn on entering?

robroy1234 wrote: »

As for the Irish Legislation, there is nothing in freemasonry that is contrary to the Irish Constitution or to the State.

Nobody said there was. There is an issue with Gardaí joining, according to the 2005 legislation however. No secret society whatsoever etc.

robroy1234 wrote: »

No one was being hoodwinked - just yourself not accepting any argument that supported your own position.

No, I simply refuse to be told that black is white and red is blue. There was some serious word twisting going on with reference to the term 'secret-society' and 'rites' among other things. I posted dictionary references which showed I have the correct interpretation. I fail to see how I am wrong, unless the dictionaries are wrong too.

robroy1234 wrote: »

I use the term begrudgery to show that you are more offended by what we would choose to do in our own private time. I assume that you would feel exactly the same towards any group of people that you feel excluded from.

Why would I feel excluded? I can join anytime I wish. To use your analogies, I don't play golf, but don't feel excluded from golf clubs. No, the issue I have is with fibbing. Do you accept that freemasonry is a secret society? Under the definition? Do you accept that you engage in rites (solemn ceremonies) and gain hidden (occult is another word for hidden) knowledge through progression (or whatever word you wish to use to convey the same meaning)?

robroy1234 wrote: »

There is absolutely nothing profane about not being a freemason. I am a freemason out of my free will and choice, so there is nothing profane about being a non-mason, and there shouldn't be any animosity from people such as yourself.

There would be no animosity, had freemasons not taken a stance that they were not a secret society, when that has clearly been proven. Are we all square here, I'm being on the level with you.

robroy1234

Where did I state I knew more about freemasonry than anyone else? Can you post the Constitution up here for us? How about the oath sworn on entering?QUOTE]

Posting the constitution here on this website would be far too much, and as for the oath - no. Nothing sinister, but that is part of the oath and I won't go and break my oath just to please you.

There is an issue with Gardaí joining, according to the 2005 legislation however. No secret society whatsoever etc

I used to be in the Civil Service in Dublin and the oath made by the Gardai is the same as the rest of the Civil Service, and I can assure you that there is nothing in the least contrary to the State in anyway in Freemasonry - if there was I wouldn't be a member.

No, I simply refuse to be told that black is white and red is blue. There was some serious word twisting going on with reference to the term 'secret-society' and 'rites' among other things. I posted dictionary references which showed I have the correct interpretation. I fail to see how I am wrong, unless the dictionaries are wrong too.

You plainly refuse to accept any of our answers and kept on calling us liars, as for secret-society and rites - that would apply to most organisations throughout Ireland from Banks, businesses, golf-club, GAA, and the ICA etc., everything can be interpreted and twisted to suit one's needs. If you like I can state that Golf-clubs are the most subversive International organisation in the World. Brian Cowen and Seannie Fitzpatrick made their deals whilst on the Golf course including the Bank Guarantee Scheme. Entry is restricted and elitist.

Do you accept that freemasonry is a secret society? Under the definition? Do you accept that you engage in rites (solemn ceremonies) and gain hidden (occult is another word for hidden) knowledge through progression (or whatever word you wish to use to convey the same meaning)?

As stated before we are a society with secrets, same applies to any other organisation. We have rites and ceremonies, and there is nothing wrong in them at all - I went to University in the States and the Greek Fraternities have all sorts of rites and hazing, same applies to the rituals the IDF have before going abroad on duty - again all open to interpretation. Hidden Occult knowledge through progression - There is nothing that is specifically hidden or occult, such as the symbols are pretty much well established, there are deeper meaning behind them - but with that we would then have to include the catholic church in having hidden and occult symbolism. The priests have an Egyptian Ankh symbol attached to certain items, do you really eat the flesh and blood of Christ? and how about reference to the Egyptian God Amon at the end of prayers. Also a progression of knowledge is entirely acceptable and is part of the system of learning.

Absolam

A money making group.

Kernel wrote: »

Where did I state I knew more about freemasonry than anyone else? Can you post the Constitution up here for us? How about the oath sworn on entering?

Ahem...

Kernel wrote: »

Or perhaps you don't understand the reality of masonry?

Trying to give us the impression you do?

Kernel wrote: »

For Jahbulon's sake, you are sworn to secrecy on pain of death

Kernel wrote: »

You're a true brother Absolam. A poor widow's son, no doubt.

Kernel wrote: »

I know masons and ex masons and get on quite well with them. I know a lot more besides, but I choose not to reveal my hand on a public forum Absolam.

Yes... you're definitely not trying to give the impression you know more than you let on!

Kernel wrote: »

Nobody said there was. There is an issue with Gardaí joining, according to the 2005 legislation however. No secret society whatsoever etc.

Be clear... you believe there is an issue. Your posts:

Kernel wrote: »

I checked that in the legislation myself, but I'm pretty sure that 'freemasonry' was specifically included in the oath. Maybe ask over at emergency services forum for a definitive answer... Either way, I still say that freemasonry is a secret society - regardless of the PR stance.

and

Kernel wrote: »

Part of the Garda Oath sworn before attestation (getting the badge) is that they will not be a part of any political part or secret society. In fact, I believe that freemasonry is actually specifically mentioned in the oath.

So... we've all seen that Freemasonry is not specifically mentioned in the oath. Yet you continue to believe without any supporting evidence other than your own conjecture.

Kernel wrote: »

No, I simply refuse to be told that black is white and red is blue. There was some serious word twisting going on with reference to the term 'secret-society' and 'rites' among other things. I posted dictionary references which showed I have the correct interpretation. I fail to see how I am wrong, unless the dictionaries are wrong too.

You posted dictionary references which showed that portions of your definitions in your opinion could be applied to aspects of Freemasonry. You also refused to accept that those portions coould be applied to other organisations. Almost as if you weren't approaching Freemasonry with regard to being '50/50'.

Kernel wrote: »

There would be no animosity, had freemasons not taken a stance that they were not a secret society, when that has clearly been proven. Are we all square here, I'm being on the level with you.

Back to my post 402...

Kernel

A satanic cult.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Posting the constitution here on this website would be far too much, and as for the oath - no. Nothing sinister, but that is part of the oath and I won't go and break my oath just to please you.

Because it's a secret obviously. Hence, secret society.

robroy1234 wrote: »

I used to be in the Civil Service in Dublin and the oath made by the Gardai is the same as the rest of the Civil Service, and I can assure you that there is nothing in the least contrary to the State in anyway in Freemasonry - if there was I wouldn't be a member.

Civil service and Gardaí are two different animals really. Does the civil service use the same oath as we have posted from the 2005 legislation?

robroy1234 wrote: »

You plainly refuse to accept any of our answers and kept on calling us liars, as for secret-society and rites - that would apply to most organisations throughout Ireland from Banks, businesses, golf-club, GAA, and the ICA etc., everything can be interpreted and twisted to suit one's needs. If you like I can state that Golf-clubs are the most subversive International organisation in the World. Brian Cowen and Seannie Fitzpatrick made their deals whilst on the Golf course including the Bank Guarantee Scheme. Entry is restricted and elitist.

Again, this analogy is stretching it too far. Golf clubs may be subversive in your opinion, but the issue here is with freemasonry being a secret society. All rational people accept that freemasonry is a secret society. If freemasonry is not a secret society then the term is a nonsense, and there is no such thing as a secret society. A subversive organisation is something different.

robroy1234 wrote: »

As stated before we are a society with secrets, same applies to any other organisation. We have rites and ceremonies, and there is nothing wrong in them at all - I went to University in the States and the Greek Fraternities have all sorts of rites and hazing, same applies to the rituals the IDF have before going abroad on duty - again all open to interpretation.

Society with secrets? PR again. See above.

robroy1234 wrote: »

Hidden Occult knowledge through progression - There is nothing that is specifically hidden or occult, such as the symbols are pretty much well established, there are deeper meaning behind them - but with that we would then have to include the catholic church in having hidden and occult symbolism.

The catechism of the Catholic Church are free and open for anyone to see though, not the case with freemasonry. I mean, you won't even post the constitution or the oath you swear on entering for feck sake.

robroy1234 wrote: »

The priests have an Egyptian Ankh symbol attached to certain items, do you really eat the flesh and blood of Christ? and how about reference to the Egyptian God Amon at the end of prayers. Also a progression of knowledge is entirely acceptable and is part of the system of learning.

I don't really want to get into the Catholic mystery of transubstantiation, as it's irrelevant to this discussion. As for a system of learning, that's fine, but the fact that the learning is not open, but rather only revealed through progression lends further weight to the fact that freemasonry is a secret society.

I mean, logically, the 'system of progression' can mean that an initiate into your organisation does not know what it is really about until he has progressed to master mason, or above. And you still don't think of it as a secret society? Really?

Kernel

A satanic cult.

Absolam wrote: »

Ahem...
Trying to give us the impression you do?

I merely used a few references to freemasonry, fair and square, I stated from the beginning that I am no expert on your craft. And I certainly wouldn't purport to know more about it than you or robroy or any other freemason.

Freemasonry is a secret society. The oath in question is a declaration that the person will not belong to any secret society whatsoever.

Yitzhak Rabin

A money making group.

Kernel wrote: »

Again, this analogy is stretching it too far. Golf clubs may be subversive in your opinion, but the issue here is with freemasonry being a secret society. All rational people accept that freemasonry is a secret society. If freemasonry is not a secret society then the term is a nonsense, and there is no such thing as a secret society.

You keep saying that, but you are wrong.

Secret societies are ones which their existence, meeting times/places, purpose, goals etc. are kept secret. Masonry is open about its existence. It welcomes non masons to view their lodges. It publishes its meeting times and places.

Kernel saying the masons are a secret society and anyone who disagrees is irrational doesn't make it so.

Absolam

A money making group.

Kernel wrote: »

Because it's a secret obviously. Hence, secret society.

Societies with secrets aren't secret societies... As discussed ad nauseum so far. Or are you now allowing all societies with secrets as secret societies... Including golf clubs, tennis clubs, county councils etc?

Civil service and Gardaí are two different animals really. Does the civil service use the same oath as we have posted from the 2005 legislation?

. Does the Garda oath specifically mention Freemasonry, as you claimed?

the issue here is with freemasonry being a secret society. All rational people accept that freemasonry is a secret society.

. When did that become the issue? And what evidence can you provide to back up your assertion that "All rational people accept that freemasonry is a secret society"? That must have been some survey! Or should we conclude that you believe only people who agree with your conjectures can be considered rational?

The catechism of the Catholic Church are free and open for anyone to see though, not the case with freemasonry. I mean, you won't even post the constitution or the oath you swear on entering for feck sake.

But you can't deny that there aspects of the Catholic Church which are kept secret from 'the profane' as you say? Even that there is secret knowledge provided to people at different levels of the Church? Yet you're not accusing the Catholic Church of being a secret society. You've been told you can obtain a copy of the Constitution if you want; you could probably order a copy from your local library if you want. But because we won't do your leg work for you, you think it's secret. A bit lazy really...

Absolam

A money making group.

Kernel wrote: »

Freemasonry is a secret society. The oath in question is a declaration that the person will not belong to any secret society whatsoever.

But you can't provide any evidence that the Garda Commissioner shares your belief that Freemasonry is a secret society? Perhaps he's not a rational person? That would be a worry.

Richard tea

A group to make contacts.

yekahS wrote: »

You keep saying that, but you are wrong.

Secret societies are ones which their existence, meeting times/places, purpose, goals etc. are kept secret. Masonry is open about its existence. It welcomes non masons to view their lodges. It publishes its meeting times and places.

Kernel saying the masons are a secret society and anyone who disagrees is irrational doesn't make it so.

Im tired of reading this line '' It welcomes non masons to view their lodges '' big cheese. You can view the white house, Vatican etc... but it does not mean you can view- witness what happens inside these places.

Absolam

A money making group.

Richard tea wrote: »

Im tired of reading this line '' It welcomes non masons to view their lodges '' big cheese. You can view the white house, Vatican etc... but it does not mean you can view- witness what happens inside these places.

True.... All of the above have matters they keep private. It doesn't make any of them secret societies. I might look at your house, but it doesn't entitle me to know what you do in it.

squod

A group to make contacts.

yekahS wrote: »

You keep saying that, but you are wrong.

Secret societies are ones which their existence, meeting times/places, purpose, goals etc. are kept secret. Masonry is open about its existence. It welcomes non masons to view their lodges. It publishes its meeting times and places.

Secret societies take an oath of secrecy.

Can you post the Constitution up here for us? How about the oath sworn on entering?

robroy1234 wrote: »

Posting the constitution here on this website would be far too much, and as for the oath - no. Nothing sinister, but that is part of the oath and I won't go and break my oath just to please you.
.

Like this sort of thing. ^

It's not a credible or reasonable argument that any of you are putting across on this issue and I believe you know as much. Freemasonry is as I've always said it was. I've yet to hear any compelling evidence to the contrary.

Absolam

A money making group.

squod wrote: »

Secret societies take an oath of secrecy.

Just so we're clear, is that your sole defining characteristic for a secret society, or will you be looking to introduce others? Only it occurs to me there may be quite a few organisations that require members/employees to take oaths/sign agreements of secrecy. I believe Roman Catholic priests are oath bound to the secrecy of the confessional?

It's not a credible or reasonable argument that any of you are putting across on this issue and I believe you know as much. Freemasonry is as I've always said it was. I've yet to hear any compelling evidence to the contrary.

I think in fairness you have yet to present any evidence for your argument whatsoever. And the sum of both yours and Kernels opinions amount to; we don't like things we don't know about and we don't like people who won't tell us whatever we want to know.

If the Freemasons on this forum were to lay bare every secret, every ritual, and every nuance of Freemasonry for you to pick over, you would still believe there was more hidden from you, and the truth was being denied to you. Frankly, that's not a problem with Freemasonry, it's a problem with you. So we'll continue to answer questions from people with a genuine interest in the Craft, we'll continue to be straightforward about the parts we won't answer questions on (because there are secrets, and it is a private members association), and we'll continue to correct, and educate, the misinformed reactionaries.

Kernel

A satanic cult.

yekahS wrote: »

You keep saying that, but you are wrong.

Secret societies are ones which their existence, meeting times/places, purpose, goals etc. are kept secret. Masonry is open about its existence. It welcomes non masons to view their lodges. It publishes its meeting times and places.

Kernel saying the masons are a secret society and anyone who disagrees is irrational doesn't make it so.

But it's not just me who says it, it's the dictionary definition of 'secret society'. Jeebus, it's like banging your head against a wall talking to you lads. Almost every rational non-mason will agree with the fact (yes fact) that freemasonry is a secret society. Publishing meeting times etc. has **** all to do with it, tbh, when what happens inside is a secret.

I mean, you guys have a guard (tyler) on the outside door and inside door to the lodge to ensure that no non-mason can get access during the meetings. Secret society. :mad:

Kernel

A satanic cult.

Absolam wrote: »

But you can't provide any evidence that the Garda Commissioner shares your belief that Freemasonry is a secret society? Perhaps he's not a rational person? That would be a worry.

Any secret society whatsoever is pretty clear in the legislation to me. You will continue to assert that you are not a secret society, but a society with secrets ad nauseum now, and once again we get nowhere.