Say what you will about Gormley but...

Stevie Dakota

Everybody is talking about lower C02 emissions. I would say that among all the posters here, only a TINY minority would have ever thought of the CO2 for their cars, and now EVERYBODY is. I find myself looking for the figure as readily as I would the 0-60 time. So I think hats off to them, it hasn’t been seamless, it won’t be easy, and being Irish everybody will complain, but at least now its on the agenda, and if you make a smart, low CO2 choice then you are going to save money.

So despite all the endless whinging, I think that most people will agree its a change for the better.

-Chris-

+1

flanzer

+2 ish....Unfortunately our little Island ain't gonna make much of a difference to world pollution when the likes of Russia, China and USA keeps bellowing out plumes of CO2. But I do agree, we're gonna save money short term but long term, our policies will have a negligable effect on world pollution.

Rowley Birkin QC

Yes it's good for the environment and it keeps the Global Warming brigade happy but it is bad for the diehard petrolhead. I'm not painting myself as one but it makes importing/buying a high powered big block petrol car vastly more expensive.

I know some people will argue that people who can afford to buy/import an M3/M5/DB9/Evo's/STi's etc. in the first place will be able absorb the extra cost but for other people whose dream it is to own something like this it places it that bit further away.

Thats my two cents and I find it also adds to my "green fatigue", I'm bloody sick of hearing about C02 everything, can't open the paper without finding out about some other thing that I won't be able buy or do in the future

JHMEG

Dear JHMEG,

The new co2 emissions will not apply to all vehicles. The original plan was
that this would apply to vehicles new or imported registered on or after the
1st of July 2008. But there is some talk that it maybe change to incorporate
vehicles first registered since the 1st of January 2008. But its likely that this
will only come into effect on the first taxing after the 1st of July 2008.

All other vehicles will continue to be taxed on egine cc.

If you wish to make a comment on this you can e-mail the Minister of
Environment at minister@environ.ie

Regards
Agnes O'Donoghue


>>> JHMEG wrote: >>>
>Hi,
>
>My wife bought a 2003 Honda Civic IMA (Hybrid) in May 2006. The CO2
>output is very low on this model at 114g/km, yet she is paying 320 euro per
>annum motor tax.
>
>Will she be able to avail of the CO2-based motor tax rates (she'd be paying
>150 euro per annum), seeing as she has been driving an environmentally
>friendly car long before January 2008 or July 2008, or will she continue to be
>penalised for being environmentally aware ahead of everyone else? In
>addition to this the resale value of her car will be greatly affected if it is
>"stuck" with the high rate of tax.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>JHMEG

Stephen

^^

Sh1t

woop

must agree, it has to be said that they do deliver what they promise with conviction even if its not a good idea, dont seem to be afraid of a backlash from the public
I say fair play to ye;)

Mitch Connor

flanzer wrote: »

+2 ish....Unfortunately our little Island ain't gonna make much of a difference to world pollution when the likes of Russia, China and USA keeps bellowing out plumes of CO2. But I do agree, we're gonna save money short term but long term, our policies will have a negligable effect on world pollution.

it is debatable whether anything humans do in general will actually have an effect on Global Warming full stop - considering cows are apparently as big a polluter as anything else on th eplanet.

craichoe

flanzer wrote: »

+2 ish....Unfortunately our little Island ain't gonna make much of a difference to world pollution when the likes of Russia, China and USA keeps bellowing out plumes of CO2. But I do agree, we're gonna save money short term but long term, our policies will have a negligable effect on world pollution.

Yeh, but with that attitude noone would bother

+1 to the OP, unfortunatly getting a performance car is going to cost more and more.

Gegerty

flanzer wrote: »

+2 ish....Unfortunately our little Island ain't gonna make much of a difference to world pollution when the likes of Russia, China and USA keeps bellowing out plumes of CO2. But I do agree, we're gonna save money short term but long term, our policies will have a negligable effect on world pollution.

We need to sort our own back yard out first before we have the right to critisise other countries. What Ireland can do is try to set an example. So far Gormley is just copying other countries policies. It's a step in the right direction but lets hope the greens can now come up with a good plan for green energy and fast.

unkel

The only way to crack down on pollution / CO2 generation is to limit usage. The polluter pays. Tax the fuel, not the person or the car

A Mercedes S-class driver doing 5,000km per year should not pay more tax who drives 50,000km in his efficient diesel...

unkel

Gegerty wrote: »

So far Gormley is just copying other countries policies

As in copying the UK? Funny results when different countries are using different systems instead of the universally working "the polluter pays" principle. Take this example, a brand new BMW 316i 1.6l petrol

In Ireland, this car will no longer be available after 01/07/2008. It is not good enough in terms of CO2 emissions compared to it's bigger engined 2.0l brother, the 318i. With the VRT changes it would cost effectively the same to buy and tax as a 318i, so no one would buy one. BMW is axing it

In the Netherlands, the 316i has just been introduced. VRT in the Netherlands is based on energy rating (not CO2) and it happens the 316i has got an A-rating for efficiency (the highest you can get)

Both systems are pathetic imho :mad:

Steve

Nobody can disagree that the topic is out there, they've achieved that.

What disturbs me about the whole thing is that diesel engines, while they are amongst the lowest for CO2 figures, spew out a whole cocktail of NOx and pp emissions which are known to cause cancer and respiratory problems.
People are being misled as to how "environmentally (un)friendly" diesels actually are.

Eoin

unkel wrote: »

A Mercedes S-class driver doing 5,000km per year should not pay more tax who drives 50,000km in his efficient diesel...

And someone driving an Irish car should not be paying any more or less road tax than the exact same car that has been imported.

I sort of agree with the OP - it has raised awareness, which can't be a bad thing. But it was an easy thing to implement - it was "revenue neutral" for the government. I heard one guy on the Last Word saying that Ireland will have to cull 50% of our cattle in order to have a hope in reducing our emissions to reach the targets set.

Gegerty

unkel wrote: »

The only way to crack down on pollution / CO2 generation is to limit usage. The polluter pays. Tax the fuel, not the person or the car

A Mercedes S-class driver doing 5,000km per year should not pay more tax who drives 50,000km in his efficient diesel...

You can "fix" the mileage on your car very easily. In fact it is rampant in the irish 2nd hand car industry. Think you're getting a 2nd hand car with low mileage for a bargain? Think again! A tax based on mileage would need a tamper proof mileage system and the technology just doesn't exist. And even if it did it would be hacked before the cars hit the Irish market.

Eoin

Gegerty wrote: »

You can "fix" the mileage on your car very easily. In fact it is rampant in the irish 2nd hand car industry. Think you're getting a 2nd hand car with low mileage for a bargain? Think again! A tax based on mileage would need a tamper proof mileage system and the technology just doesn't exist. And even if it did it would be hacked before the cars hit the Irish market.

Tax the fuel?

Gegerty

eoin_s wrote: »

And someone driving an Irish car should not be paying any more or less road tax than the exact same car that has been imported.

I sort of agree with the OP - it has raised awareness, which can't be a bad thing. But it was an easy thing to implement - it was "revenue neutral" for the government. I heard one guy on the Last Word saying that Ireland will have to cull 50% of our cattle in order to have a hope in reducing our emissions to reach the targets set.

Or genetically engineer them to fart oxygen

C_Breeze

JHMEG wrote: »

Dear JHMEG,

The new co2 emissions will not apply to all vehicles. The original plan was
that this would apply to vehicles new or imported registered on or after the
1st of July 2008. But there is some talk that it maybe change to incorporate
vehicles first registered since the 1st of January 2008. But its likely that this
will only come into effect on the first taxing after the 1st of July 2008.

All other vehicles will continue to be taxed on egine cc.

If you wish to make a comment on this you can e-mail the Minister of
Environment at minister@environ.ie

Regards
Agnes O'Donoghue


>>> JHMEG wrote: >>>
>Hi,
>
>My wife bought a 2003 Honda Civic IMA (Hybrid) in May 2006. The CO2
>output is very low on this model at 114g/km, yet she is paying 320 euro per
>annum motor tax.
>
>Will she be able to avail of the CO2-based motor tax rates (she'd be paying
>150 euro per annum), seeing as she has been driving an environmentally
>friendly car long before January 2008 or July 2008, or will she continue to be
>penalised for being environmentally aware ahead of everyone else? In
>addition to this the resale value of her car will be greatly affected if it is
>"stuck" with the high rate of tax.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>JHMEG

JHMEG - really not having a go at you here, but......

The point your making is all well and good ... but you also failed to mention to the minister that you drive a Civic VTI which pollutes how much????


Would you be happy if they responded saying .... "Yes Mr. JHMEG , we'll backdate your wifes Hybrid car to save her €150 on tax on the condition that we backdate your Civic too and raise it from 1.6cc tax to €1000 per annum Co2 Tax" .... i'll let you do the maths and figure out your profit/loss! :rolleyes:

See thats the problem, people will always complain about what suits them but keep hush hush if it affects them adversely in anyway.


Anyway, my main point is that a backlash - if they were to backdate Co2 - would be far greater from current performance car drivers (golf GTI's , audi TT's, Mazda RX-8s... even Civic VTI's , SiR's, type R's and Glanzas) than it would be from PRIUS & CIVIC IMA DRIVERS etc :rolleyes:

Gegerty

eoin_s wrote: »

Tax the fuel?

Ah of course One step at a time. I'm sure this will follow soon.

Eoin

Actually - on the tax the fuel idea:

These figures are completely taken out of the air, but I'm trying to guess what might be considered an average car - 1598cc / 40MPG / 12000 miles per year.

That's an annual consumption of 300 gallons or 1362 litres. If the car is already registered, the road tax will be €428. If that was scrapped, would that mean the government would have to add 31 cents per litre or so to recoup that cost - or do I have my figures completely arseways?

JHMEG

C_Breeze wrote: »

JHMEG - really not having a go at you here, but......

The point your making is all well and good ... but you also failed to mention to the minister that you drive a Civic VTI which pollutes how much????

I get your point, but it's misplaced. My wife bought her car specifically with CO2 in mind. She was ahead of the green curve, but isn't getting rewarded like the late comers to the party will be.

OTOH Like pretty much everyone else CO2 didn't even enter my head when buying my car, but whether my tax should change or not isn't the issue.

pedro ferio-vti

Say what you will about Gormley but.......

But what? The Government are just just implementing a revenue neutral system with a "Green" spin to make it more pallatable to the average car-owner who probably doesn't know much about cars anyway. Which, in my opinion anyway, doesn't do much for the environment but is squarely aimed at deterring car buyers from looking outside the Irish market dominated by the SIMI and it's artificially overinflated prices?

As mentioned above, measurement of CO2 is NOT the be all and end all of how efficient a vehicle uses it's fuel..... but hey, it get people like Stevie Dakota singing the governments praises for being lobbied into introducing stupid systems like this with alternative agendas so why not.

Stevie Dakota

Ah Pedro, you need a hug...

I'm not singing the governments praises, but a move, no matter who it is implemented by, that gets people in a mindset where they start talking and thinking about how much they pollute has to be considered a move in the right direction. It is not the solution, but it is part of it.

is_that_so

Not really a hard thing to do and eminently more sensible than whacking fuel, which the Greens would gladly have done before they realised what being in government meant.
It also sounds a lot better and more believable from a Green who genuinely espouses it than some FF lackey cooling his heels in a "cushy ministry".
There is some credit due but IIRC FF were talking about this anyway in their programme for government. Gormley has been inclined to claim everything "environmental" for the Greens since he got in.

JHMEG

unkel wrote: »

TTax the fuel, not the person or the car

If VRT was scrapped and the tax put on fuel to compensate, the cost of a litre of fuel would increase by 50c.

This would give an average litre of petrol price of €1.67:eek:, the dearest in Europe, if not the world.

People would bitch, moan and complain about fuel prices.
The inflation index would go through the roof.
Property prices "down the country" would collapse.
The economy would probably collapse as we rely on road hauliers to transport goods.

craichoe

JHMEG wrote: »

If VRT was scrapped and the tax put on fuel to compensate, the cost of a litre of fuel would increase by 50c.

This would give an average litre of petrol price of €1.67:eek:, the dearest in Europe, if not the world.

People would bitch, moan and complain about fuel prices.
The inflation index would go through the roof.
Property prices "down the country" would collapse.
The economy would probably collapse as we rely on road hauliers to transport goods.

A. Where did you get this '50 cent' figure from.
B. Petrol is already between 1.58 and 1.70 a litre here in Holland. I don't see the total collapse you foresee and they haul just as much stuff by road here. from other countries.

JHMEG

craichoe wrote: »

A. Where did you get this '50 cent' figure from.

I calculated it based on number of litres of motor fuel sold in 2006 and based on a VRT figure of €1.5 billion.

craichoe wrote: »

B. Petrol is already between 1.58 and 1.70 a litre here in Holland. I don't see the total collapse you foresee and they haul just as much stuff by road here. from other countries.

€1.53 is the average price in the Netherlands. Shock their economy by putting fuel up to €2.18 (42%) and watch it collapse.

kona

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

Everybody is talking about lower C02 emissions. I would say that among all the posters here, only a TINY minority would have ever thought of the CO2 for their cars, and now EVERYBODY is. I find myself looking for the figure as readily as I would the 0-60 time. So I think hats off to them, it hasn’t been seamless, it won’t be easy, and being Irish everybody will complain, but at least now its on the agenda, and if you make a smart, low CO2 choice then you are going to save money.

So despite all the endless whinging, I think that most people will agree its a change for the better.

i dont care tbh:o

once the car makes me mile i dont give a ****:D:D

im a selfish bastard.........looking at a 5.7 v8 vette for the weekends:p:D

craichoe

JHMEG wrote: »

I calculated it based on number of litres or motor fuel sold in 2006 and based on a VRT figure of €1.5 billion.


€1.53 is the average price in the Netherlands. Shock their economy by putting fuel up to €2.03 and watch it collapse.

Thats a very round number, could you explain how that calculation was performed ?

and another point

Petrol is MORE expensive in Germany, i always fill up here before i get there .. So i still don't get your point, people will pay if they are willing to drive.

And average makes no sense, if you live around Den Haag, Amsterdam, Rotterdam your stuck paying at the high end of the scale, unless you want to drive about 100km, currently its 1.67 at at the Texaco around the corner from me. The cheapest i could find was at a Q8 garage about 40 minutes drive away and thats 1.56 a litre.

I could in theory live 100km away from the city but then i'd have to drive and end up spending more on fuel rather than have my car for leisure use on the weekends.

http://www.q8.be/nl/prijzen.cfm

So give me a break :rolleyes: its alot cheaper to own/drive a car in Ireland than it is in Continental Europe.

JHMEG

craichoe wrote: »

So give me a break :rolleyes: its alot cheaper to own/drive a car in Ireland than it is in Continental Europe.

How do you work that out? Or is that based purely on the fact that petrol is cheaper here?

Is there a VRT equivalent in Holland? What are the road tax rates?

[To raise €1.5bn from ~3bn litres requires an increase of 50c/litre. I'm not counting in a further €900m of motor tax, but I think I should have]

Eoin

craichoe wrote: »

Thats a very round number, could you explain how that calculation was performed ?

Look at my earlier post - I got 31 cents, just for the government to break even on a 1.6 doing 40mpg and 12000 miles a year (instead of charging €430 or so road tax). That consumption could well be on the low side, so 50 cents isn't unreasonable.

If you took an average of 40 cents per litre extra instead of road tax, I wonder how many people it would actually benefit.