Private clamping

seamus

Wahey a real thread!

OK, was having a "debate" with my family last night. They were basically saying that if you get clamped by anyone other than the corporation, you have the right to remove their clamp through whatever means necessary. More specifically, you would be well within your rights to take an angle grinder to it.

I argued that this would be criminal damage - the clamp isn't yours and although you're entitled to remove it from your vehicle, you're not entitled to damage it in the process - that two wrongs don't make a right.

They argued that the initial offence was the other company clamping your vehicle - by putting the clamp on, they have interfered with your vehicle and are therefore guilty of an offence. They have no legal grounding which gives them the right to interfere with and immobilise your vehicle, even on private property. Since the initial offence is theirs, you can't be guilty of an offence when removing the clamp.

So who is right? Or are we both right?

Tom Young

I'd tend to agree with you on the criminal damage aspect of your point, Section 2 etc. That said if the person parks on property and is given notice of the fact that a clamping policy is in effect then I'd imagine that the onus would be on the person who was clamped to show that they lawfully parked in the space.

Its an awfully emotive topic really.

seamus

Tom Young wrote: »

That said if the person parks on property and is given notice of the fact that a clamping policy is in effect then I'd imagine that the onus would be on the person who was clamped to show that they lawfully parked in the space.

A notice of a policy though hardly gives one carte blanche though surely?

If I put a sign up on my front door saying that I had a policy of electrocuting all callers, surely they could all sue me?

More seriously, if the company had a policy of letting the air out of the tyres of any vehicles parked on private property, surely this would constitute unlawful interference with someone's property?

Maximilian

My view is that they have no right to clamp your car without your permission. Therefore, you are within your rights to smash the thing to pieces. Or pay someone to remove it and sue the clampers for the expense. Any accusations of criminal damage could be countered with ones of extortion.

If the local authorities needed legislation to enable them to legally clamp cars, then I certainly imagine private individuals would also.

seamus

Maximilian wrote: »

If the local authorities needed legislation to enable them to legally clamp cars, then I certainly imagine private individuals would also.

Does the private -v- public argument hold any water though? That is, local authorities would of course need legislation to clamp a vehicle parked illegally in a public place. But could a car park be classed as a private area? Most places where they claim clamping are in fact privately-owned property but to which the general public have been given access - does this change the nature of the property?

And would the law support clamping on private property? Or does it seem like it's such a small amount of money that nobody has tested it?

randombar

This is definitely one I'm subscribing to, come legal eagles!

seamus

Yes of course this being a public discussion, note that nobody here is right or wrong but just giving their view. Any action you take based on opinions offered in this thread is entirely your own responsibility.

Tom Young

seamus wrote: »

A notice of a policy though hardly gives one carte blanche though surely?

If I put a sign up on my front door saying that I had a policy of electrocuting all callers, surely they could all sue me?

More seriously, if the company had a policy of letting the air out of the tyres of any vehicles parked on private property, surely this would constitute unlawful interference with someone's property?

Not carte blanche but cretes notice.

Examples: (Volenti non-fit injuria)

Beware of dogs
Danger - Enter at own risk
CCTV in operation .........

Who's property rights are infringed if someone parks without permission? Particularly on a car space charged per day /per diem? ....its a trespass situation and the test is Direct Consequences.

Tom

dermot_sheehan

You are trespassing on private property if you enter it without a licence. They make the condition on entering the property and being granted a licence consenting to being clamped if you fail to buy a ticket, etc, etc. Therefore you have consented to being clamped and if you damage the clamp are guilty of criminal damage.

Or another analogy, you drive into someone's driveway where they put a big sign saying if you park here without permission you agree to pay me €80 or else I close the gate. They close the gate. What are your remedies? Can you break open the gate? It would probably be criminal damage if you did. Same with a clamp.

briantwin

This happened to a friend of mine. He went to court over it as well. His was avary similar situation to the one described. He was parking on the grounds of his college. They have notices up about clamping, the clamping company they use was the corporation clampers. Anyway long story short. He took the clamp off without damaging it.

Several weeks later, contacted by the gardai. Looking for the clamp etc. Let it slide for a while, then got clamped again. Got caught taking this clamp off. Eventually got brought to court.

Anyway the clampers were demanding all sorts in court.
The judge asked simply who employed them? They said the county council. he asked what right they had to clamp on private property.
They said , the college had a deal with the county council to do with the clamping.
The judge just laughed, said that didn't change the law and legislation governing clamping on private property and public thoroughfares and swiftly cleared my friend of the charges.

Maximilian

seamus wrote: »

Does the private -v- public argument hold any water though? That is, local authorities would of course need legislation to clamp a vehicle parked illegally in a public place. But could a car park be classed as a private area? Most places where they claim clamping are in fact privately-owned property but to which the general public have been given access - does this change the nature of the property?

And would the law support clamping on private property? Or does it seem like it's such a small amount of money that nobody has tested it?

Yeah I think it does. Private clamping simply has no legal basis at all in common law or otherwise. Its extortion at worst, its an "unfair consumer term" at best. I simply cannot see it ever being upheld by a Court.

It is arguably a form inertia selling and illegal under the Sale of Goods Act. I'm sure you could find dozens of ways clamping is wrong.

Our man in Havana

Was this Waterford IT by any chance?

Our man in Havana

Maximilian wrote: »

Yeah I think it does. Private clamping simply has no legal basis at all in common law or otherwise. Its extortion at worst, its an "unfair consumer term" at best. I simply cannot see it ever being upheld by a Court.

It is arguably a form inertia selling and illegal under the Sale of Goods Act. I'm sure you could find dozens of ways clamping is wrong.

In Scotland the courts have taken the view that clamping is nothing but extortion and therefore illegal there.

CantGetNoSleep

Bond-007 wrote: »

Was this Waterford IT by any chance?

I saw a thread about this somewhere in WIT, it might have been on here, i'll have a look

CantGetNoSleep

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055176010&highlight=clamping

And for anyone thats been clamped lately, here's a guy from Amsterdam's solution

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/43238/7856f9ab/cursus_wielklem_verwijderen.html

seamus

gabhain7 wrote: »

Or another analogy, you drive into someone's driveway where they put a big sign saying if you park here without permission you agree to pay me €80 or else I close the gate. They close the gate. What are your remedies? Can you break open the gate? It would probably be criminal damage if you did. Same with a clamp.

But they don't have any legal right to detain your property, surely? You could contact the Gardai and have them force the property owner to release your vehicle without charge?

Sully

If you want to do clamping on private property, you must have permission by the Council and the appropriate bye-laws must be in place. In the case of the WIT incident, the judge ruled that the college had no legal right to clamp. The situation now is that they claim to have the full permission and bye-laws since the incident.

However, someone else challenged it again since the new clampers came in. They got an angle grinder and took it off. Guarda refused to come out saying it was on private property and the council said there was no permission granted for clamping. The clampers started to record the incident and were warned to stop, so they did. Nothing happened since.

Our man in Havana

I reckon they are on very shakey ground. I doubt they would win another court case.