Immigration checks

mick72 · 05-03-2008 8:32pm

We shouldn't accept it, but if you really want to control immigration, you do have to set up border crossing and ask for documents every person that comes along. That way no one would be discriminated against.

As someone said what happens if a black person who has been an Irish citizen for the past 5 years is found on a bus with no documents? Is that where prejudice takes over and you deport him since he does not 'look Irish'?

Could he perhaps go to court?

Tha Gopher · 05-03-2008 8:41pm

Studoc wrote: »

A friend of mine (black and Irish) is constantly stopped and basically harassed whenever she enters this country. Fair?

Define harassed. Asked to take out her passport? Like everyone else entering Dublin airport? Exactly what is the extent of this harassment? Because to me it sounds like someone who has a chronic chip in their shoulder.

Studoc wrote: »

The crime of rape cannot compare to some unfortunate individuals tyring to make their way (albeit unlawfully) south on a bus from Newry to Monaghan.

Every one of them is unfortunate? Every last one is fleeing war or famine?

Zoney wrote: »

I do not like this, because no Irish or British citizen should have to prove their citizenship. .

I have to do it every time I arrive in Dublin.

I dont mind. You want people to travel on planes without ID do you?

This thread is only 2 pages so far and some of the opinion posted is unbelieveable.

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

Every single f***ing time I come into this country I'm pulled over while everyone else goes on.

And exactly how long do they detain you when they do pull you in?

I had my bag thoroughly searched in Frankfurt airport. Maybe because

a- Im young and male

b- Im Irish

c- Frankfurt is a major transit point for Ireland bound weed from S Africa

I didnt bother kicking up a fuss.

As for the "black Irish citizen on the bus with no ID" example, he/she is bound to be carrying something. An ATM or credit card from an Irish bank for example, so Im sure it would seldom if ever pose a problem.

purple'n'gold · 05-03-2008 8:43pm

mick72 wrote: »

We shouldn't accept it, but if you really want to control immigration, you do have to set up border crossing and ask for documents every person that comes along. That way no one would be discriminated against.

As someone said what happens if a black person who has been an Irish citizen for the past 5 years is found on a bus with no documents? Is that where prejudice takes over and you deport him since he does not 'look Irish'?

Could he perhaps go to court?

If he’s an Irish citizen he would have nothing to worry about, if he gives his name and address the gardai in his local area can check that out. But I am sure that any person in that position would have some sort of identification on him.

mick72 · 05-03-2008 8:46pm

What's wrong with border though? It takes mere two seconds to show your ID

Studoc · 05-03-2008 9:45pm

"Define harassed. Asked to take out her passport? Like everyone else entering Dublin airport? Exactly what is the extent of this harassment? Because to me it sounds like someone who has a chronic chip in their shoulder."

No, a very well balanced person actually, being stopped and asked questions for several minutes, despite having a valid passport, while other Irish passport holders(white) stream past.

"Every one of them is unfortunate? Every last one is fleeing war or famine?"

Yes, they are unfortunate. By a dint of fate, they are born in a country where there is far, far less opportunity than here. Might not be fleeing war or famine, but these are not the only criteria for asylum. The risks many of them take to get here are extraordinary.

"This thread is only 2 pages so far and some of the opinion posted is unbelieveable."

Just because you disagree does not make the comments unbelievable.

"I had my bag thoroughly searched in Frankfurt airport. Maybe because

a- Im young and male

b- Im Irish

c- Frankfurt is a major transit point for Ireland bound weed from S Africa

I didnt bother kicking up a fuss."

Congratulations.

"As for the "black Irish citizen on the bus with no ID" example, he/she is bound to be carrying something. An ATM or credit card from an Irish bank for example, so Im sure it would seldom if ever pose a problem."

Maybe, but bet they did'nt ask the white Irish citizen next to him/her.

sovtek · 06-03-2008 11:17pm

purplengold wrote: »

It’s near time we got a handle on this illegal trespassing into our country.

Does that mean everyone is going to have to carry their passport if they are going to the north? I never have so what would happen to me when they check my Irish DL and hear my Texas accent? Deport me for not having a passport!!!!!!!

purple'n'gold · 07-03-2008 1:13pm

sovtek wrote: »

Does that mean everyone is going to have to carry their passport if they are going to the north? I never have so what would happen to me when they check my Irish DL and hear my Texas accent? Deport me for not having a passport!!!!!!!

If you are not an Irish citizen and you are resident in the Irish republic, it would be a good idea for you to carry your passport when you travel to another jurisdiction i.e. Northern Ireland. If on the other hand you are an Irish citizen you can explain this to the gardai, give your name and address, tell them where you have just come from and I am sure you will be allowed to go about your business. The border between the Irish republic and Northern Ireland is an international border and our authorities can police it as they see fit.

sovtek · 07-03-2008 3:16pm

purplengold wrote: »

If you are not an Irish citizen and you are resident in the Irish republic, it would be a good idea for you to carry your passport when you travel to another jurisdiction i.e. Northern Ireland. If on the other hand you are an Irish citizen you can explain this to the gardai, give your name and address, tell them where you have just come from and I am sure you will be allowed to go about your business. The border between the Irish republic and Northern Ireland is an international border and our authorities can police it as they see fit.

You cannot exclude foreign residence from the same law as everyone else. At airports everyone has to have a passport and be subject to inspection...that's fair. Telling non-citizens they have to carry their passport when no one else does...is not. That's pretty obvious to me.

purple'n'gold · 07-03-2008 3:27pm

sovtek wrote: »

You cannot exclude foreign residence from the same law as everyone else. At airports everyone has to have a passport and be subject to inspection...that's fair. Telling non-citizens they have to carry their passport when no one else does...is not. That's pretty obvious to me.

As I have said before it is up to the Irish authorities to police our international border as they see fit. I am not telling anyone to carry a passport when they travel across the border, just that it would be sensible for people who are not Irish or British citizens to do so. What you believe to be fair or not does not come into it. Methods used by law enforcement agencies all over the world to protect their countries borders are decided by what is best and most effective. Political correctness does not come into it.

The_Conductor · 07-03-2008 3:42pm

sovtek wrote: »

Telling non-citizens they have to carry their passport when no one else does...is not. That's pretty obvious to me.

Why?
I have to in France, or Germany, or the US (or pretty much any major country that you choose to name), while their citizens don't. I accept this- as a minor price to pay for visiting/living in those countries. Its the norm.

Calina · 07-03-2008 4:09pm

In France and Germany, citizens have to carry their official ID. Given that the nearest equivalant we have is our passports, I don't get what the issue is. As it happens I have mine with me at all times, even here.

mick72 · 08-03-2008 12:12pm

Guys. this is getting ridiculous!

Yes, if there is an international border (which is the case between the republic and north) everyone must have some sort of document (national ID, passport etc) regardless of whether a citizen or not.

When you land at Dublin airport (which is an international border), everyone has to show their passports to Gardai officers. Of course, Irish passport holders are not subject to stringent control (which is fine by all means) as opposed to nonEU nationals. Do you really think that it would not be discriminating if Irish citizens did not have to have any documents while others did?! Everyone is equal and the same rules apply to everyone.

Mucco · 08-03-2008 6:24pm

mick72 wrote: »

When you land at Dublin airport (which is an international border), everyone has to show their passports to Gardai officers. Of course, Irish passport holders are not subject to stringent control (which is fine by all means) as opposed to nonEU nationals..... Everyone is equal and the same rules apply to everyone.

The point is not about non-EU citizens:
Last time I flew into Dublin from London there was a black fella and his daughter (of about 3) in front of me at the immigration queue. He had a UK passport, she and Irish one. Their passports were closely examined, and they had several questions asked of them. I flashed my drivers license and was straight through. That's the issue.

M

Tha Gopher · 08-03-2008 8:13pm

Studoc wrote: »

1- No, a very well balanced person actually, being stopped and asked questions for several minutes, despite having a valid passport, while other Irish passport holders(white) stream past.

2- Yes, they are unfortunate. By a dint of fate, they are born in a country where there is far, far less opportunity than here. Might not be fleeing war or famine, but these are not the only criteria for asylum. The risks many of them take to get here are extraordinary.

3- Just because you disagree does not make the comments unbelievable.

4- Congratulations.

5- Maybe, but bet they did'nt ask the white Irish citizen next to him/her.

1- So?

I have been at nightclub doors pleading my case while foreigners stroll in. Probably because the bouncers know that most of them drink less than Irish people, its unlikely they will be getting severely drunk and fighting.

2- What in the name of God are you on about?

3- But its not just my opinion that what was said is nonsense. It IS nonsense.

4- Thanks. Tell your mate to adopt a similiar attitude.

5- Of course they didnt. Because that person looks Irish. And unless you want to be whiney about it it doesnt really matter

sovtek wrote: »

Telling non-citizens they have to carry their passport when no one else does...is not. That's pretty obvious to me.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Telling foreigners to carry a document proving they are legally in the country is quite fair. Do you disagree with motorists always having to carry their licences?

purplengold wrote: »

. If these immigration checks are upsetting the nonsensical pc brigade, well, good!

Best reason I have heard to do the checks

djpbarry · 08-03-2008 9:19pm

mick72 wrote: »

Of course, Irish passport holders are not subject to stringent control (which is fine by all means)...

Why? Surely that in itself is something that could be exploited, no? Same rules should be applied to everyone - no exceptions.

Studoc · 08-03-2008 9:59pm

Tha Gopher wrote: »

1- So? I have been at nightclub doors pleading my case while foreigners stroll in. Probably because the bouncers know that most of them drink less than Irish people, its unlikely they will be getting severely drunk and fighting.

Not the same thing. At all.

2- What in the name of God are you on about?

You asked whether all illegal immigrants are unfortunate.

3- But its not just my opinion that what was said is nonsense. It IS nonsense.

Right. Quite a tautology. Impossible to argue against. A masterful argument. Career at the bar?

4- Thanks. Tell your mate to adopt a similiar attitude.

No. I was being sarcastic.

5- Of course they didnt. Because that person looks Irish. And unless you want to be whiney about it it doesnt really matter

It does matter. It matters greatly. From your posting I get the impression that your only experience of discrimination is being stopped going into the pub.

cabinteelytom · 08-03-2008 10:45pm

Chasing down buses will not do. It will be neccessary to restore formal border checks ( which was the case until about 1975) because of policies being pursued in the UK.
See UK Borders and Immigration Agency website ( www.bia.gov.uk) and go to 'news' and see on 14-1-08 the minister's '10 point plan' to be implemented DURING 2008. The accompanying pdf document details;
*fingerprinting of all extra-europe arrivals before (sic) a visa is issued, *automatic deportation of non-national convicts (no legal-aid gravy train), *on the spot fines for employers who do not make the correct right-to-work checks,
* compulsory ID cards for foreign nationals who wish to stay in UK,
* a points system (modelled on the successful Austrailian example they say) to select the highly skilled non-EU immigrants.
This is why , certainly in the short-term ie 2008, but in the long-term also unless we follow suit, there will be a lot more people boarding the bus from the UK to the Irish Republic.

Chunky Monkey · 08-03-2008 11:24pm

Mucco wrote: »

The point is not about non-EU citizens:
Last time I flew into Dublin from London there was a black fella and his daughter (of about 3) in front of me at the immigration queue. He had a UK passport, she and Irish one. Their passports were closely examined, and they had several questions asked of them. I flashed my drivers license and was straight through. That's the issue.

M

Coming off the ferry as well. My two white companions weren't asked to show their passports, I was. For all they knew my friends could have broken out of jail and were escaping to Ireland. But no they decided to pull over the dark skinned girl.

If everyone had their passports examined thoroughly I certainly wouldn't mind. I understand that illegal immigration is a big problem (though I do think it's odd that the government can get so worked up losing money over that but can run up electricity bills worth tens of thousands of euros heating empty health care facilities). It's the fact that they only look closely at the passports of foreign looking people and have a demeaning, gruff attitude when they do so that pisses me off.

cabinteelytom · 09-03-2008 12:46am

The Proclaimation...is always a sound moral starting point; 'The Republic guarantees equal rights and equal opportunities to all it's citizens'.
To it's citizens...not to the citizens of everywhere in the world.
If you are a foreigner in Ireland, enjoy your trip, but we reasonably expect you to produce a visa or a permit issued by our government proving your entitlement to be here.
And I've found things to be no different in the three other continents I've been to; with my passport, my airline ticket home and my valid visa. And inspected very carefully they were too in America and Africa.

Chunky Monkey · 09-03-2008 12:49am

I'm an Irish citizen. And I'm talking about other Irish citizens. Not all Irish citizens are white.

Tha Gopher · 09-03-2008 2:15am

Studoc wrote: »

Tha Gopher wrote: »

1- So? I have been at nightclub doors pleading my case while foreigners stroll in. Probably because the bouncers know that most of them drink less than Irish people, its unlikely they will be getting severely drunk and fighting.

Not the same thing. At all.

2- What in the name of God are you on about?

You asked whether all illegal immigrants are unfortunate.

3- But its not just my opinion that what was said is nonsense. It IS nonsense.

Right. Quite a tautology. Impossible to argue against. A masterful argument. Career at the bar?

4- Thanks. Tell your mate to adopt a similiar attitude.

No. I was being sarcastic.

5- Of course they didnt. Because that person looks Irish. And unless you want to be whiney about it it doesnt really matter

It does matter. It matters greatly. From your posting I get the impression that your only experience of discrimination is being stopped going into the pub.

1- Not the same thing eh? A bouncer is thinking, based on race, there is less chance of this crowd of Spaniards getting very drunk and brawling than this Irishman.

2- And you think that they are all unfortunate. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

3- Allow me to explain. If I went onto the Boxing forum and said Ali was the worst boxer of all time, yes its an opinion, but it is an opinion which is complete bollix.

4- I know. Does this mate even exist anyway?

5- Actually I was turned away from two hostels in Dublin by Australian staff before being allowed into a third, some kip, and the Pole behind the desk even said they normally didnt accept Irish people. In work I have seen less experienced female colleagues with stats well below mine get promoted before me. So yes, Ive experienced more than nightclub doormen brush offs.

mick72 · 09-03-2008 10:15am

Hahaha

Bring your passport with you and you needn't worry.

Saying this, I have to stress, if I was non-white Irish citizen and was pulled out the bus for not having my passport on me while all other Irish citizens remained on the bus, I would certainly go to my solicitor and argue that I had been singled out because of my looks, certainly it caused me an embarrassment. Never mind the bus leaving while Gardai checks the status in the state.

DJPBarry,

of course Irish passport holders are not subject to stringent control, I mean you don't expect an Irish citizen to answer questions such as: What's the purpose of your trip, How long are you staying for, where are you staying etc.....

Our man in Havana · 09-03-2008 12:36pm

cabinteelytom wrote: »

Chasing down buses will not do. It will be neccessary to restore formal border checks ( which was the case until about 1975) because of policies being pursued in the UK.
See UK Borders and Immigration Agency website ( www.bia.gov.uk) and go to 'news' and see on 14-1-08 the minister's '10 point plan' to be implemented DURING 2008. The accompanying pdf document details;
*fingerprinting of all extra-europe arrivals before (sic) a visa is issued, *automatic deportation of non-national convicts (no legal-aid gravy train), *on the spot fines for employers who do not make the correct right-to-work checks,
* compulsory ID cards for foreign nationals who wish to stay in UK,
* a points system (modelled on the successful Austrailian example they say) to select the highly skilled non-EU immigrants.
This is why , certainly in the short-term ie 2008, but in the long-term also unless we follow suit, there will be a lot more people boarding the bus from the UK to the Irish Republic.

Tom,I agree with you 100%. It is time to have formal checks on every road, ferryport, airport and train station where people can enter the republic from another country. I would welcome the installation of booths on the N1 (and all other drivable roads) to check people coming from Northern Ireland.

mick72 · 09-03-2008 1:37pm

I agree with Tom.

Not just because of illegal immigrants, but our own citizens who might have committed various crimes, and are trying to get to the UK

Studoc · 09-03-2008 1:50pm

Tha Gopher wrote: »

Studoc wrote: »

1- Not the same thing eh? A bouncer is thinking, based on race, there is less chance of this crowd of Spaniards getting very drunk and brawling than this Irishman.

I'd say he's making his decision based on you rather than race.

2- And you think that they are all unfortunate. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Know any?

3- Allow me to explain. If I went onto the Boxing forum and said Ali was the worst boxer of all time, yes its an opinion, but it is an opinion which is complete bollix.

I'm afraid you have not explained yourself at all.

4- I know. Does this mate even exist anyway?

Yes

5- Actually I was turned away from two hostels in Dublin by Australian staff before being allowed into a third, some kip, and the Pole behind the desk even said they normally didnt accept Irish people. In work I have seen less experienced female colleagues with stats well below mine get promoted before me. So yes, Ive experienced more than nightclub doormen brush offs.

Good stuff, you should be able to empathise then with people who experience discrimination on a daily basis.

djpbarry · 09-03-2008 5:15pm

mick72 wrote: »

of course Irish passport holders are not subject to stringent control, I mean you don't expect an Irish citizen to answer questions such as: What's the purpose of your trip, How long are you staying for, where are you staying etc.....

Suppose I have a counterfeit passport?

On the subject of the border check-points - I would imagine the vast majority of people on both sides would oppose such a regression. I'm not sure the massive Garda effort that would be required would be worthwhile. I was not aware that Ireland has a major problem with illegal immigration?

I would suggest that efforts should be concentrated on removing the incentives for illegal immigrants:

Employers who employ illegals should certainly be heavily fined - they are often guilty of exploitation
Reform the social welfare system - this would effectively kill two birds with one stone, seeing as the vast majority of fraud is committed by Irish individuals.

gaf1983 · 09-03-2008 6:01pm

Tha Gopher wrote: »

5- Actually I was turned away from two hostels in Dublin by Australian staff before being allowed into a third, some kip, and the Pole behind the desk even said they normally didnt accept Irish people. In work I have seen less experienced female colleagues with stats well below mine get promoted before me. So yes, Ive experienced more than nightclub doormen brush offs.

Did you go to the Equality Tribunal in either of these cases?

walrusgumble · 09-03-2008 10:27pm

Studoc wrote: »

Stubbing your cigarette out on the street, jay walking and going at 85mph on a motorway are crimes too. The crime of rape cannot compare to some unfortunate individuals tyring to make their way (albeit unlawfully) south on a bus from Newry to Monaghan. I think it is an incredible waste of garda (and by extension, our) resources.

really? any better solutions? a garda's job is to detect and prevent crime. european courts (human rights courts) recognise that a member state has the right to guard and control its boarders. it also recogises that there is no right for non eu national to be entitled to enter a member state (i mean an absolute right to do so -even if they are married to eu nationals (unless they have been settled in spouse's country prior)

if, i as an irish national entered the US boarder via mexico or canada and wa deteted i would epect to be either detained or refused entry and returned to where i came from. every other country have immigration police. i do not know why there is a thread here, any one who hs travelled up around the 9 counties of ulster over the past number of years on public transport would have noticed the gnib at some point.

you are complaining on waste of resources. good man , great thinking there! what about the great waste of resources thrown away in genuine frivolous cases in the high court (up to €50k per day the hearing is held)?

i am sorry for your friend's trouble, but face facts, not all like her, go about things the correct way. what do you mean by harrassement? (i am sure it does be embarrassing etc) she is asked for id? (what is wrong with co-operating with police instructions when she enters an airport) just flash her irish passport or gnib certificate of registration. simple. that is not harrassement in the legal sense. if she feels that way the ombusman could be contacted.

Studoc · 10-03-2008 12:23am

walrusgumble wrote: »

really? any better solutions? a garda's job is to detect and prevent crime. european courts (human rights courts) recognise that a member state has the right to guard and control its boarders. it also recogises that there is no right for non eu national to be entitled to enter a member state (i mean an absolute right to do so -even if they are married to eu nationals (unless they have been settled in spouse's country prior)

Yes, there are better solutions. And yes the Garda's job is to prevent and detect crime (and keep the peace). I'm not sure what ruling or indeed what court you are referring to. European Court of Justice or the European Court of Human Rights?

if, i as an irish national entered the US boarder via mexico or canada and wa deteted i would epect to be either detained or refused entry and returned to where i came from. every other country have immigration police. i do not know why there is a thread here, any one who hs travelled up around the 9 counties of ulster over the past number of years on public transport would have noticed the gnib at some point.

Presume you mean if you entered the US illegally.

you are complaining on waste of resources. good man , great thinking there! what about the great waste of resources thrown away in genuine frivolous cases in the high court (up to €50k per day the hearing is held)?

Any particular case spring to mind?

i am sorry for your friend's trouble, but face facts, not all like her, go about things the correct way. what do you mean by harrassement? (i am sure it does be embarrassing etc) she is asked for id? (what is wrong with co-operating with police instructions when she enters an airport) just flash her irish passport or gnib certificate of registration. simple. that is not harrassement in the legal sense. if she feels that way the ombusman could be contacted.

She is very certain that she is treated differently based solely on the colour of her skin. That is harassment.

walrusgumble · 10-03-2008 1:51am

Studoc wrote: »

Tha Gopher wrote: »

1- So? I have been at nightclub doors pleading my case while foreigners stroll in. Probably because the bouncers know that most of them drink less than Irish people, its unlikely they will be getting severely drunk and fighting.

Not the same thing. At all.

2- What in the name of God are you on about?

You asked whether all illegal immigrants are unfortunate.

3- But its not just my opinion that what was said is nonsense. It IS nonsense.

Right. Quite a tautology. Impossible to argue against. A masterful argument. Career at the bar?

4- Thanks. Tell your mate to adopt a similiar attitude.

No. I was being sarcastic.

5- Of course they didnt. Because that person looks Irish. And unless you want to be whiney about it it doesnt really matter

It does matter. It matters greatly. From your posting I get the impression that your only experience of discrimination is being stopped going into the pub.

with regard to point numbe 2, you previouly stated that war and famine are not the only reasons for asylum. well the person that asking you what the hell you were on about, he is correct. you said asylum. well under section 2 of the refugee act, they are precisely the types of areas that are included if you have suffered persecution (religious, political,membership of social membership group, nationality, stateless). the un handbook on the criteria and procedures on determining refugee claims makes it very very clear that economic migrants are not grounds for asylum. anything else is unfounded. i doubt all illegals go to much hard ship, excluding financial or trafficking (as oppose to smuggling, which is voluntary) to get here. its there choice after that. (yes i have heard all the horrible stories of nationals dying in containers trying to get into england and please, i am trying not to be dispassionate or dismissive) however, the only internatinal obligation ireland has to non nationals who enter this state illegally is to not return them if they genuinely have reasons to believe that they would likely suffer persecution or serious harm and depending on any refugee scheme etablished by the government of the day catering for humanitarian disasters such as famine and floods and general warfare.

why should they be rewarded for bravely entering the state despite of state in spite of dangers if there is no need for them legally and they can safely return home?. (in that i am referring to the state requiring more people for work force ie work visas - which we dont need as in this climate there are plenty to take from the national or european work force pool and of course the non eu nationals already here)

by the way, being refused entry into a public house is not always discriminatoty as you well know,

Immigration checks

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