rant on this country's failure.

andyl222

I know this is an oft discussed area of our modern society, but considering recent occurrences, I was wondering does anyone else agree that this country is becoming increasingly violent day by day. 2006 had more murders than a year during the Irish civil war for god sake, 1000+ sexual assaults (including 300+ rapes), what is happening??? What is making people (especially the youth of this nation) so oblivious to the consequences of their actions. If I had a screwdriver in my hand and thought it would be a good idea to stab someone in the head with it, I'd have the wherewithal to know it 'might' just KILL him. People answer with excuses; has a drug problem, a broken home, no education, but no one seems to think the youth in our society should be held accountable. These are merely extenuating circumstances, but by their very nature should not be seen to demerit the severity of an individual's crimes. Our society and legal system makes it easy for repeat offenders, people who commit heinous unthinkable acts, to walk free from a court with a probation act. That is not a deterrent,and I fear until there is a structure in place where the punishment fits the crime, this nation that used to pride itself on the sentiment of community and hospitality will spiral ever further into the depths of violent disarray.

Collie D

andyl222 wrote: »

2006 had more murders than the Irish civil war for god sake, 1000+ rapes,

:rolleyes:

Exaggerate much or do you just write for the Herald?

JavaBear

Do something about it

andyl222

Collie D wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Exaggerate much or do you just write for the Herald?

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/crime_justice/current/headlinecrime.pdf

andyl222

JavaBear wrote: »

Do something about it

I just thought it would be interesting to get peoples views on this. But your right, I'll go grab my balaclava......

AlmightyCushion

Back in my day we had nothing to do so we got bored. We used to knick knock and prank call people. Now a days kids are killing and raping people. While murders and rapes are higher than they ever were, I bet prank calls and knick knocking is at an all time low so it's not all bad.

whatsgoinon

i think it's a case of 'spare the rod and spoil the child' in this country. a bit of military service or something like that might be no harm.

JavaBear

andyl222 wrote: »

I just thought it would be interesting to get peoples views on this. But your right, I'll go grab my balaclava......

That's how you solve your problems, eh?

Collie D

andyl222 wrote: »

http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/crime_justice/current/headlinecrime.pdf

According to that there 323 cases of rape and about eighty murders. I'm not sure of the figures but I'm sure a lot more than eighty people dies during the Civil War.

andyl222

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Back in my day we had nothing to do so we got bored. We used to knick knock and prank call people. Now a days kids are killing and raping people. While murders and rapes are higher than they ever were, I bet prank calls and knick knocking is at an all time low so it's not all bad.

that true, i'd say petty disturbances and minor vandalism is at an all time low, now you just get your car burnt out and your head caved in... Good to see that with economic prosperity came criminal evolution.

andyl222

Collie D wrote: »

According to that there 323 cases of rape and about eighty murders. I'm not sure of the figures but I'm sure a lot more than eighty people dies during the Civil War.

Yeah I did misread what i'd written and corrected accordingly, and I did read in a report in the Independent recently the rape figure was much higher than that. Alas it may be that they lumped sexual assaults in with rape, which I'm sure you'll agree Collie is horrendous, imagine all those guys who just sexually assaulted women being tarred with the same brush as rapists. A crime in and of itself....

Steyr

A guy i work with used to be in the Dutch Police and he says what is going on over here is nothing compared to whats happening in Holland. Thats his view. Then again we are bigger geographically but not population wise.



Netherlands Area [sq. km]41,526
Ireland Area [sq. km]70,280

Collie D

andyl222 wrote: »

Yeah I did misread what i'd written and corrected accordingly, and I did read in a report in the Independent recently the rape figure was much higher than that. Alas it may be that they lumped sexual assaults in with rape, which I'm sure you'll agree Collie is horrendous, imagine all those guys who just sexually assaulted women being tarred with the same brush as rapists. A crime in and of itself....

No need to be sarcy because I pulled up your dodgy figures.

andyl222

Collie D wrote: »

No need to be sarcy because I pulled up your dodgy figures.

Apologies, but while accepting the figures were misjudged, I am yet to hear your point of view on the subject. This is a message board for discussion is it not, so I would assume while pointing out the flaws in my initial post,you might also have a substantial response also???

Collie D

In fairness I think your exaggeration and wrong figures makes your point invalid. Which was my point

dsmythy

Down with the banana Republic i say. Bring on the 2nd Republic.

andyl222

Collie D wrote: »

In fairness I think your exaggeration and wrong figures makes your point invalid. Which was my point

Oh your right, because I mistakenly put an incorrect figure (which I subsequently corrected) into my post the whole topic is redundant. So by that statement you deem the level of violent crime, murder, rape and sexual assaults in this country to be of an acceptable level... Fair enough.

Hellm0

andyl222 wrote: »

Oh your right, because I mistakenly put an incorrect figure (which I subsequently corrected) into my post the whole topic is redundant. So by that statement you deem the level of violent crime, murder, rape and sexual assaults in this country to be of an acceptable level... Fair enough.

Sensationalism and finger pointing like that are what lead to police states. God forbid the government should ever listen to the likes of you. We've enough trouble with the road safety nazi's, the anti drugs sheep and the health care/economy moaners.

Try to look on the bright side for once eh?

Collie D

andyl222 wrote: »

Oh your right, because I mistakenly put an incorrect figure (which I subsequently corrected) into my post the whole topic is redundant. So by that statement you deem the level of violent crime, murder, rape and sexual assaults in this country to be of an acceptable level... Fair enough.

No, I just get fed up with the constant hype about it. Are you afraid to leave your house? If no, then the country is hardly on the verge of collapse. If yes, then you meed to grow some balls, man

andyl222

Hellm0 wrote: »

Sensationalism and finger pointing like that are what lead to police states. God forbid the government should ever listen to the likes of you. We've enough trouble with the road safety nazi's, the anti drugs sheep and the health care/economy moaners.

Try to look on the bright side for once eh?

I agree with you with regard to sensationalism and finger pointing can lead to a 'form' of police state, and that is not what I was aiming for. What I was hoping for was a discussion whereby people would voice their opinions on the matter of the increasing crime rate in ireland, more specifically with regard to violent crime and sexually motivated attacks. F*ck sake, I'm only 24 and I am not attempting to stir up some mass movement for legal reform, I'm simply a concerned citizen of this nation where it seems violence is escalating. If you can say it's not then fair enough. It just gets tiresome when you open any newspaper and read that some person is murdered in an unprovoked attack by cretins who will in all probability get the minimum sentence for the crime commited. I'm not looking for a police state, and believe it or not I hate the hysteria based lunacy of some contributors on here, I just simply wanted to hear people's opinions. Yours it would appear is that I'm some hysteria hyped soapbox stomper, so be it.

andyl222

Collie D wrote: »

No, I just get fed up with the constant hype about it. Are you afraid to leave your house? If no, then the country is hardly on the verge of collapse. If yes, then you meed to grow some balls, man

No I have no problem leaving my house, and I hardly said the country was on the verge of collapse. My post was merely a (rectified) statement of how I feel the country is failing with regard to violent crime in ireland. While I don't fear leaving my house, I do worry about the safety of my g/f, friends and relatives when I read the incessant stream of articles about unprovoked attacks and murders in this country.

Hellm0

andyl222 wrote: »

Yours it would appear is that I'm some hysteria hyped soapbox stomper, so be it.

Given what you say above I'm willing to change that opinion:P

However when you say

andyl222 wrote: »

It just gets tiresome when you open any newspaper and read that some person is murdered in an unprovoked attack by cretins who will in all probability get the minimum sentence for the crime committed.

I can empathize. The nature of the media is intrinsically linked with sensationalism as that is what attracts attention. I really don't think Ireland is such a bad place to live, the people are generally very nice and I have to say I miss the Irish mentality.

In short, don't believe anything the media tells you. Just like Satan* they mix the truth with lies.

*Colorful language, I dont believe in the devil or a Judeo Christian god for that matter.

orestes

As the population of a country grows it seems to make sense that crime rates would too. I wonder what the comparison in violent crimes between the civil war and today would be like if they were compared on a per capita basis?

(that might have been done in the article in the link earlier but it won't open for me so sorry if this post is irrelevant)

More news reports do not mean more crime though. If you think that the country (or indeed any country) was some kind of wonder land in the past and has just gone to the dogs in the last generation or two you are mistaken.

andyl222

Hellm0 wrote: »

Given what you say above I'm willing to change that opinion:P

However when you say


I can empathize. The nature of the media is intrinsically linked with sensationalism as that is what attracts attention. I really don't think Ireland is such a bad place to live, the people are generally very nice and I have to say I miss the Irish mentality.

In short, don't believe anything the media tells you. Just like Satan* they mix the truth with lies.

*Colorful language, I dont believe in the devil or a Judeo Christian god for that matter.

I agree with you about the Irish mentality, and it is a sad loss. I'm by no means a pessimistic person, but what I was hoping to convey in the post was the sheer loss of conscience and sense of consequence that is occuring in many of the offenders & young offenders in this country. Sociopathic to a point. All of our ould fellas would say that in their day if there was a fight yadda yadda yadda it was a fair fight etc. In this age, if there is a fight you'd be lucky not to be blinded,maimed or killed. Young fella's bottling people for no reason, carrying weapons ( knives and screw drivers etc) in case there is any form of altercation, attacking people for the sake of it, all without the slightest thought of how their violence could result in the death of someone. It's not an optimistic sign to the future, but as I said, perhaps with a legal deterrent that amounts to more than a slap on the wrist it doesnt have to be a damning inevitability.

andyl222

orestes wrote: »

As the population of a country grows it seems to make sense that crime rates would too. I wonder what the comparison in violent crimes between the civil war and today would be like if they were compared on a per capita basis?

(that might have been done in the article in the link earlier but it won't open for me so sorry if this post is irrelevant)

More news reports do not mean more crime though. If you think that the country (or indeed any country) was some kind of wonder land in the past and has just gone to the dogs in the last generation or two you are mistaken.

I would agree that there is a certain correlation between crime rates and population growth, but what I do wonder about is the increase of severity & violence involved in these crimes. The state pathologist Dr. Marie Cassidy commented that she used to see someone with 1 or 2 stab wounds on her autopsy table, now she sees people with 10+, she states this is known as over-kill, which would infer an increased level of violence.

Hellm0

andyl222 wrote: »

I agree with you about the Irish mentality, and it is a sad loss. I'm by no means a pessimistic person, but what I was hoping to convey in the post was the sheer loss of conscience and sense of consequence that is occuring in many of the offenders & young offenders in this country. Sociopathic to a point. All of our ould fellas would say that in their day if there was a fight yadda yadda yadda it was a fair fight etc. In this age, if there is a fight you'd be lucky not to be blinded,maimed or killed. Young fella's bottling people for no reason, carrying weapons ( knives and screw drivers etc) in case there is any form of altercation, attacking people for the sake of it, all without the slightest thought of how their violence could result in the death of someone. It's not an optimistic sign to the future, but as I said, perhaps with a legal deterrent that amounts to more than a slap on the wrist it doesnt have to be a damning inevitability.

Well I concur that the types of crimes that are being commited are escalating in severity in relation to the types of crimes that would have been seen say 50 years ago in Ireland however remember that society is a very different creature to what it was back then.

There is more money around, communities do not exist in the same sense as they did back in the day. The fabric of society is changing along with that of the world, and I agree that it is not always changing for the better.

That said what cannot be abandoned is optimism. Buying into media hype and believing anything they say only perpetuates the problem and creates more problems than it creates.



Given that heroin was added to the Irish scene(or at least was adopted as the drug of choice by Ireland's poor at least) relatively recently it is no surprise that organized crime is on the rise.

andyl222

Hellm0 wrote: »

Well I concur that the types of crimes that are being commited are escalating in severity in relation to the types of crimes that would have been seen say 50 years ago in Ireland however remember that society is a very different creature to what it was back then.

There is more money around, communities do not exist in the same sense as they did back in the day. The fabric of society is changing along with that of the world, and I agree that it is not always changing for the better.

That said what cannot be abandoned is optimism. Buying into media hype and believing anything they say only perpetuates the problem and creates more problems than it creates.



Given that heroin was added to the Irish scene(or at least was adopted as the drug of choice by Ireland's poor at least) relatively recently it is no surprise that organized crime is on the rise.

The economic prosperity of a country shouldn't automatically reflect the severity of violent crimes,regardless of whether it creates a bigger social divide between the higher & lower classes. Look at that guy that got kicked to death outside Annabel's. Also to consider the heroin problem amongst the disadvantaged to be relatively young would be misguided when it has been circulating widely in Ireland for the last 30 years. I encounter junkies on almost a daily basis, and the vast majority are oblivious to passers by, where the minority will be appear aggressive. The real issue is the new breed of what we all call scumbags, skobes etc etc. The ever furrowed brow of anger clearly visible beneath the sparkling white angled peak of some branded cap, while they aggressively posture along the street. These cretins I fear are the future of this country, because it seems with the law the way it is, they'll do what they want and never stand to any realistic form of punishment.

Hellm0

A valid point however these really are sociological and cultural(or the lack of culture) problems rather than purely economic. That said the deterioration of culture and community can be traced to rapid economic expansion. I believe that people react to the way you treat them and in more established first world countries people are treated as quantifiable drones who's only purpose in life is to consume and produce, which is a required assumption if you believe in economics as a science.
To those that this system reject this may seem like a rather bitter dismissal and negative reactions are understandable in this context. In an egalitarian society where income and wealth are taken to be a measuring stick of character those that are not wealthy are naturally treated with some level of disdain. How do you react to being discriminated against?

andyl222

Hellm0 wrote: »

A valid point however these really are sociological and cultural(or the lack of culture) problems rather than purely economic. That said the deterioration of culture and community can be traced to rapid economic expansion. I believe that people react to the way you treat them and in more established first world countries people are treated as quantifiable drones who's only purpose in life is to consume and produce, which is a required assumption if you believe in economics as a science.
To those that this system reject this may seem like a rather bitter dismissal and negative reactions are understandable in this context. In an egalitarian society where income and wealth are taken to be a measuring stick of character those that are not wealthy are naturally treated with some level of disdain. How do you react to being discriminated against?

To make that point, would be to again disregard the accountability of the individual and once again thrust responsibility on society, and I have to say I just can't agree with that. If some skobe starts on me and him and his 6 friends kick me to death, its for nothing more then their own amusement and some bizarre primal concept of alpha male supremacy. To say its is becaue they are upset and dejected at not being part of the social majority is a cop out. There are plenty of homeless people on our streets (another issue altogether), who don't feel the need to carry knives, bottle random passers by or beat people to death, and these individuals you agree would be peak of this angered disadvantaged paradigm you mentioned.

kleefarr

I know it's based on American statistics, but it says something to me...

Collie D

kleefarr wrote: »

I know it's based on American statistics, but it says something to me...

Hmm, I don't believe that graph. Wasn't there a period when capital punishment was outlawed across the US so therefore the graph should show zero for executions. Also, I am pretty sure nearly every study in the US has shown that the death penalty has had no effect on the murder rate nationwide

kleefarr

Collie D wrote: »

Hmm, I don't believe that graph. Wasn't there a period when capital punishment was outlawed across the US so therefore the graph should show zero for executions.

It looks like it does between about 1961 and 1980. (Edit - actually looks more like '67 - '77. I don't know the actual statistic as you may have guessed.)

Collie D wrote: »

Also, I am pretty sure nearly every study in the US has shown that the death penalty has had no effect on the murder rate nationwide

They were just getting withdrawal symptoms.

Collie D

kleefarr wrote: »

It looks like it does between about 1961 and 1980.

Silly me...so it does. I mixed the lines up somehow

Hellm0

Whilst I would never denounce personal responsibility I am advocating that these circumstances breed the kind of mentality which lends itself to violent outbursts and anti social behavior.
In the same vein, to say that wealth affects everyone the same way poverty does is nonsensical. People are all different of course, which in fact reinforces my proposed line of reasoning. Not all poor people are heroin addicts, not all rich people are greedy, but the relative circumstances(in terms of environment and mentality) certainly do have a noticeable effect upon behavior.

If I could propose a solution to the problem it would be increased public spending on education and health care combined with social initiatives to increase a sense of community in poorer areas. The apathy shown by our government to the disenfranchised is exemplified by the judicial systems sentencing. I agree that sentences handed out for violent crime are completely ineffective(both in duration and in result) as they lack the redemptive element necessary to discourage repeat offenses. Rather than straight up sending people to jail, perpetrators need to learn WHY their crimes are socially unacceptable and be exposed to the results of their actions in a way which educates them rather than just stigmatizes them driving them further down a path of criminal activity.

codewarrior

I think you over-analyze the effects of capitalism and the fourth estate on the situation mr. H3mmo. The issue here is probably largely due to the population explosion on the Emerald Isle and the influx of different cultures into your population. Population density and increased friction caused by cultural differences ring far more true to me then the "rampant apathetic consumerism" argument. Also 80 murders a year for a population c. 5 Million would be considered acceptable by anyone from the colonies. My city (Chicago) has 2.8 million people and 435 murders (2006), New York had fewer than 500 murders (a record) with a population of 8 million (2006) and LA had 392 murders in 2006 with a population of 3.6 million. I'm not saying that these numbers are good, but these are the 3 largest urban centers in one of the most decidedly first world countries in the world.

Collie D

codewarrior wrote: »

I think you over-analyze the effects of capitalism and the fourth estate on the situation mr. H3mmo. The issue here is probably largely due to the population explosion on the Emerald Isle and the influx of different cultures into your population. Population density and increased friction caused by cultural differences ring far more true to me then the "rampant apathetic consumerism" argument. Also 80 murders a year for a population c. 5 Million would be considered acceptable by anyone from the colonies. My city (Chicago) has 2.8 million people and 435 murders (2006), New York had fewer than 500 murders (a record) with a population of 8 million (2006) and LA had 392 murders in 2006 with a population of 3.6 million. I'm not saying that these numbers are good, but these are the 3 largest urban centers in one of the most decidedly first world countries in the world.

Thank you for putting our murder rate into perspective. I still think Ireland is a safe country

gondorff

I blame the Spice Girls.

andyl222

codewarrior wrote: »

I think you over-analyze the effects of capitalism and the fourth estate on the situation mr. H3mmo. The issue here is probably largely due to the population explosion on the Emerald Isle and the influx of different cultures into your population. Population density and increased friction caused by cultural differences ring far more true to me then the "rampant apathetic consumerism" argument. Also 80 murders a year for a population c. 5 Million would be considered acceptable by anyone from the colonies. My city (Chicago) has 2.8 million people and 435 murders (2006), New York had fewer than 500 murders (a record) with a population of 8 million (2006) and LA had 392 murders in 2006 with a population of 3.6 million. I'm not saying that these numbers are good, but these are the 3 largest urban centers in one of the most decidedly first world countries in the world.

There is no denying that they are damning figures for the murder rates in those cities in the states, however I'd say you have to take into account the gun laws to a certain extent, not to mention the proclavity of gang related mortalities in the cities you cited. Also you need to bear in mind that that statistic is based around a concentrated centre of urbanisation with a very high density populace.

also this is a pretty apt essay on the subject of crime in ireland, p22 onwards
http://books.google.ie/books?id=58gF9X9Ooy0C&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=irish+crime+statistics+1970&source=web&ots=k67OZV2ZQj&sig=HyhpDIa6lEN7bR69AiTiEljbAao&hl=en#PPA21,M1

Black Swan

Close Shannon to the US military and stop lending support for their war?

EamonnKeane

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate shows that Ireland has a very low homicide rate: 0.91 per 100,000 compared to UK 2.03. Australia 1.28. Ireland are the 6th lowest in Europe, behind Greece, Lux, Norway, Denmark, Austria.

dr.bollocko

I cant believe the English are better at murder than us. Even their country cousins Australia are better.
Right. Im getting our numbers up.

utick

EamonnKeane wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate shows that Ireland has a very low homicide rate: 0.91 per 100,000 compared to UK 2.03. Australia 1.28. Ireland are the 6th lowest in Europe, behind Greece, Lux, Norway, Denmark, Austria.

sorry thats incorrect, 84 murders in a population of 4 million would put ireland over 2 murders per 100,000 leaving us somewhere in the middle of europes murder statistics

AlmightyCushion

utick wrote: »

sorry thats incorrect, 84 murders in a population of 4 million would put ireland over 2 murders per 100,000 leaving us somewhere in the middle of europes murder statistics

That list's most recent figures for Ireland is 2004 whereas the most recent figures in pdf file linked to above is 2007. In the wikipedia article (which could be 100% false), if you compare our 2004 figures to most other countries 2004 figures then we still rank pretty far down the list.

If someone has a more up to date list of other countries homicide rates then we could compare them with those and see where we stand with more recent figures.

Edit: In 2006, we had 67 murders. Given a population of 4,000,000 this works out at around a homicide rate of 1.675 for every 100,000 people. In 2006, Canada had a homicide rate of 1.85 for every 100,000 people so we aren't doing too badly.

Black Swan

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Edit: In 2006, we had 67 murders. Given a population of 4,000,000 this works out at around a homicide rate of 1.675 for every 100,000 people. In 2006, Canada had a homicide rate of 1.85 for every 100,000 people so we aren't doing too badly.

Piece of cake! Compare this with Los Angeles County that had a 2007 year total of 324 murders, with an estimated population of 10.33 million.

Read someplace that Bush has been scraping the barrell trying to find recruits for his Iraq War, and has been overlooking the backgrounds of many of them to fill the ranks. Recruiting offices in LA's gangland?

Tuesday_Girl

Steyr wrote: »

A guy i work with used to be in the Dutch Police and he says what is going on over here is nothing compared to whats happening in Holland. Thats his view. Then again we are bigger geographically but not population wise.



Netherlands Area [sq. km]41,526
Ireland Area [sq. km]70,280

What's happening in Holland that's so much worse than what we're seeing in Ireland?

0ubliette

I dont think theres even the most blinkered of boards users on here who could argue that the place isnt getting worse. You only need to take a walk through town even on a saturday afternoon to see just how bad its getting. Gangs of junkies congregating in the alley next to wynns hotel, gypsies begging on every street corner, drunks abusing passers by (and this was what i saw last saturday afternoon, it wasnt even nighttime). The city is going to the dogs...and sadly all the bitching about it on boards wont do a blind bit of difference. The only thing that will help change it is if we get a proper government elected who actually have the balls to tackle the problems in our own country before looking to send ****ing peace envoys to bumfcuk, Egypt or wherever the lastest humanitarian crisis is. I dont mean to sound bad but ****in Bertie on his trips to south africa makes my blood boil, weve enough problems of our own here that need sorting out before you try and sort out the rest of the worlds ills.

Collie D

0ubliette wrote: »

The city is going to the dogs...and sadly all the bitching about it on boards wont do a blind bit of difference.

So it would be irrelevent to read your post?

topper75

There is a general abdication of responsibility in this society. People think education can solve it but don't realise the far greater power of the 'home' culture. Teachers haven't a hope. The parent(s) send them off to a baby-sitting service and couldn't care less what happens there. The attitude is 'What my child does/doesn't do is nothing got to do with me... don't bother me about it.' We'll see a lot more of screwdriver in the head stuff over the next 10/20 years before people get angry enough about it I'm afraid.

jester77

Bring back corporal punishment. What harm did it do to anyone who grew up knowing that if they stepped out of line they would get a slap from their parents or teacher? It made them think twice before acting, that's what. Nowadays children have free reign at school, at home and out in public. Teachers can't touch them, parents can't touch them and because they are minors in the eyes of the law they get away with most of their actions.

Collie D

Corporal punishment, eh? Violence upon children to prevent future crimes? I know if any teacher had laid a hand on me as a child they'd have taken a table to the mouth

Femelade

i come out better financially by working part time, than i would if i worked full time. - go figure.