Time signatures

Spicy Lauren

I've never studied music theory so i'm a bit confused with this.

When I count '1 2 3 1 2' on a riff I've written, does that mean that the time signature is 3/2?

Any help in explaining how this works is greatly appreciated!

byebye
Lauren

BizzyC

Bit rusty but:

The top note in the pattern, ie 3 (3/2), indicates the number of notes used within 1 measure.
The bottom note, 2 in your guess, is the type of note used (2 = half note), which is the number of notes that should be present in a normal measure.

Example: in 4/4 you count '1 2 3 4', but in 3/4 you count '1 2 3', but because both are quarter notes(/4) they are played at the same tempo, but the measure is one note shorter.
4/4 - 1 2 3 4|1 2 3 4...
3/4 - 1 2 3|1 2 3|1 2...

if you compare 4/4 to say 4/6 then it changes the tempo of the count(but not the song), because the 4 notes you count are now spread across the space for 6 notes, but because the length of a measure hasnt changed (4), you speed up that measure to fit it in 6notes instead of 4.


If you count '1 2 3 1 2' in a single measure, then you are in 5/something.
I'd have to hear the timing of it to figure out what 'something' is.

Hope that helps somehow

Spicy Lauren

I didnt realise it had to do with notes at all, I thought it was down to beats, as in 177bpm in this case.
Yeah I think you might be right, it probably is a 5/something.
How do I figure the 'something'?

BizzyC

Not sure if there's an exact method, but you should know by the feel of the song.
If its a measure that's been extended by a note, then 5/4, if the measure is correct for the song throughout, you may be in 5/5...

Spicy Lauren

it aint the song throughout.
verse is 1 2 3 4 5 and also 4/4
chorus 1 2 3 4 5
bridge 4/4
end 4/4

I like to write complicated riffs it seems. It gives my drummer a hard time

So would that mean it's 5/4 and 4/4 job then?

-=al=-

Yup, sounds like it alright

BizzyC

Spicy Lauren wrote: »

it aint the song throughout.
verse is 1 2 3 4 5 and also 4/4
chorus 1 2 3 4 5
bridge 4/4
end 4/4

I like to write complicated riffs it seems. It gives my drummer a hard time

So would that mean it's 5/4 and 4/4 job then?

probably, but it depends.
Are the 5/4 measures longer than the 4/4 measures, or do they take the same amount of time?
if its longer, then yes, 5/4, if they're the same then maybe 5/5.

BizzyC

Also, Bpm is the tempo of the song. Drum beats are written as notes.
ie a 4/4 song at 200bpm is played twice as fast as a 4/4 at 100bpm, but its the same as an 8/8 song at 100bpm.

NotMe

Yeah 5/4 sounds right. Although wouldn't you count 1 2 3 4 5 rather than 1 2 3 1 2 which would suggest alternating between say 3/4 and 2/4

5/5? :eek: I think you generally only get x/2 x/4 x/8 x/16 x/32 etc. If it was like 5 notes in the space of 4 then it would be a quintuplet in 4/4 time?




*music theory confuses me

Gordon

An example of a 5/4 beat is Take five. That jazzy number. Think about the tune and count 5 beats to it.

If you feel that the phrasing is 123 12 (repeat) then this can simply mean that your 5/4 meter is phrased to be a "compound meter" that has a block of three and a block of two beats, repeated. Hence, it is still 5/4.

BizzyC

Gordon wrote: »

An example of a 5/4 beat is Take five. That jazzy number. Think about the tune and count 5 beats to it.

If you feel that the phrasing is 123 12 (repeat) then this can simply mean that your 5/4 meter is phrased to be a "compound meter" that has a block of three and a block of two beats, repeated. Hence, it is still 5/4.

Yep.
Forgot about compound meters, must get back into theory a bit...

ogy

If you feel that the phrasing is 123 12 (repeat) then this can simply mean that your 5/4 meter is phrased to be a "compound meter" that has a block of three and a block of two beats, repeated. Hence, it is still 5/4.

thats a composite meter. a compound meter is when the basic beat can be divided into 3 or 6 or 12 easily, like 6/8 time.

Spicy Lauren

You guys are awesome!
thank u

byebye x
Lauren

Orbghost

Gordon wrote: »

An example of a 5/4 beat is Take five. That jazzy number. Think about the tune and count 5 beats to it.

If you feel that the phrasing is 123 12 (repeat) then this can simply mean that your 5/4 meter is phrased to be a "compound meter" that has a block of three and a block of two beats, repeated. Hence, it is still 5/4.

Love 5/4 but you rarely see it in popular music. The only other one I can think of that made it to no 3 in the charts was Jethro Tull, Living In The Past.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3TN7VlnPvKg

parasite

Nick Drake - River man is 5/4 too

Spicy Lauren

Actually lads, I've an other question... (to see if I understood well)
If I count 1 2 3 4 5 6 (repeat) through a whole song, whats that - 6/6?

Orbghost

Spicy Lauren wrote: »

Actually lads, I've an other question... (to see if I understood well)
If I count 1 2 3 4 5 6 (repeat) through a whole song, whats that - 6/6?

Ah, now we move into 6/8 territory.

Spicy Lauren

Orbghost wrote: »

Ah, now we move into 6/8 territory.

Are you fukcin serious??!

-=al=-

mhmm... its not as hard as u think im sure there are a lot of songs in 6/8 u know of already

Time signatures are pretty simple once u know how they work

BizzyC

Orbghost wrote: »

Ah, now we move into 6/8 territory.

Could be 6/6 also, depends on the song...

Gordon

ogy wrote: »

thats a composite meter. a compound meter is when the basic beat can be divided into 3 or 6 or 12 easily, like 6/8 time.

I knew I'd get that wrong! Never knew that Riverman was 5/8, love that song.

There is no such signature as 6/6 surely as there is no 6th note? Or will I be proved wrong? The reason for the second number in the time signature is due to the designation of the note to be counted. (I thought)

4/4 means 4 beats of note number 4 are in the bar. Note number four being a crotchet (quarter note). Note one being a semibreve, 2 = minim, 4 = crotchet, 8 = quaver, 16 = semiquaver. I guess, come to think of it, 6/6 is technically possible as a 6 note is probably a dotted crotchet (dotted means that you add half of the time of the note on to the note length), but I would put money on there being no more than one musical composition made in 6/6 (known composition..).

Time signatures can be really really tricky to get your head around and then one day it may just click, like a metronome.

Spicy Lauren wrote: »

Actually lads, I've an other question... (to see if I understood well)
If I count 1 2 3 4 5 6 (repeat) through a whole song, whats that - 6/6?

I wasn't so hot on time signatures when I did music so I could be wrong here. In my opinion that would probably be either 6/4 or 6/8. Which is 6 beats of crotchet or 6 beats of quaver in a bar. As has been mentioned they can actually sound the same technically but in reality the time signature should fit the feel and mood of the song/piece also.

So, if a bar has 6 beats of a slightly slower pace, a walking pace for example then one would probably term it as being a 6/4 piece. Thats six beats of the crotchet type. If the piece was more up-beat then each beat may feel like it didn't deserve to be labelled as a crotchet but as a quaver and hence it would be a 6/8 piece.

A quick wikipedia on Time Signature throws up some examples of 6/4 and 6/8.

Try counting up to 6 over this song (tricky beat so count slow and steady to get it) 6/4. Once you have that slow steady beat, can you go double time? Can you count up to six on a faster beat? If you can (double the speed of your counting) it won't sound right.

Now listen to this fantastic (bodhran?) beat. Listen to the first half of the mp3 (the second half goes a bit mad!) and count 6. You will only be able to count 6 quickly 6/8 - can you count 6 at a slower pace? Where the accents of the drum hit are being placed? Probably not as it also doesn't sound quite right maybe.

Actually, I can't really explain the difference between the two, I'm thinking to myself now that the difference is that one is faster! Surely that's not how you explain it?! It's all just how you look at it, like art and perspective..

Jeanious

BizzyC wrote: »

Could be 6/6 also, depends on the song...

nah generally anything your gonna write in a band or whatever is gonna have the bottom number /2 /4 or /8. If your countin 1 2 3 4 5 6 its 99.9% gonna be in 6/8 time or possibly 3/4. Countin 1 2 3 4 5 is gonna be in either 5/4 or 5/8.

While stuff like 3/9, 5/5, 6/11 can exist, ive been playin music in orchestras and rock bands for nigh on 16 years and ive never ever ever seen anything on the bottom of a time signature except /1 /2 /4 /8 or /16.

(in case anyone was interested!)

-=al=-

I was, as for I have never seen 6/6 before either

I am also the mayor of Albaquerke

BizzyC

I know that in all likelihood its almost deifnitely 6/8, just pointing out that it's not impossible to have a /6 sig.

NotMe

Gordon wrote: »

Actually, I can't really explain the difference between the two, I'm thinking to myself now that the difference is that one is faster! Surely that's not how you explain it?! It's all just how you look at it, like art and perspective..

This example from wikipedia is confusing me.


It says it alternates between 6/8 and 3/4 but what is the difference? Sure enough the first bar has 6 eighth notes and the second has 3 quarter notes.. but why can't it all be in 3/4. Can't you have eighth notes in 3/4? What if the second bar had some eighth notes in it.. would it become 6/8? And what if the first bar was sixteenths.. would it be 12/16?

If you had something in 4/4 like:
|x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-|x---x---x---x---|
you wouldn't say it alternates between 8/8 and 4/4?

NotMe

NotMe wrote: »

This example from wikipedia is confusing me.


It says it alternates between 6/8 and 3/4 but what is the difference? Sure enough the first bar has 6 eighth notes and the second has 3 quarter notes.. but why can't it all be in 3/4. Can't you have eighth notes in 3/4? What if the second bar had some eighth notes in it.. would it become 6/8? And what if the first bar was sixteenths.. would it be 12/16?

If you had something in 4/4 like:
|x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-|x---x---x---x---|
you wouldn't say it alternates between 8/8 and 4/4?

The first bar is divided into 2 groups of 3 quavers. If it was 3/4 it would be 3 groups of 2 quavers. 3/4 has always 3 distinct groups/beats of notes that form a full crotchet, whether it's 2 quavers, 4 semiquavers, etc. A 6/8 bar has 2 distinct groups/beats.

The second bar is in 3/4 because as you see there are 3 beats. To turn it into 6/8, you would need to have two dotted crotchets or groups that form dotted crotchets - i.e. the same thing as the first bar.

Gordon, 6/8 would only have 6 quavers which is fewer to a bar than 6/4 which may be why you are confused about the speed.

ogy

heres a basic rundown on time signatures (some repeating of what was said before)

the top number is how many beats there are in a bar.
the bottom number is the type of beat
4 = quarter note (crotchet)
8 = eighth note (quaver)
2 = half note (minim)
there the most common thing you'll find on the bottom.
If your counting 1 2 3 4 along with your average song each number is a quarter note. The words quarter/eighth/half note only really make sense in a bar of 4-4 time (cos theres 4 quarter, 8 eights, 2 halfs). But theyre still used in other time signatures just out of convenience. You'll usually come across either a 4 or an 8 on the bottom, anything else doesn't have any REAL relevance in modern music.

Theres two types of time signatures: simple and compound
In a simple time signature the basic beat can be divided into 2/4/8/16. So in a simple time signature the bottom number is usually 4 ie. theres x amount of quarter notes in a bar. e.g. 4-4, 2-4, 3-4. Theres 4 pulses in a bar of four four, 2 pulses in a bar of 2-4 etc.
In a compound time signature the basic beat can be divided into 3/6/12. 8 is usually the bottom number of a compound time signature. 6-8, 9-8, 12-8 are examples. The difference about compound time signatures is that every 3 quavers is just 1 beat/pulse. So in a bar of 6-8 you have 2 pulses, not 6. 9-8 is 3 pulses, 12-8 is 4 pulses. So 6-8 has the same pulses as 2-4, 9-8 has the same pulses as 3-4, and 12-8 has the same pulses as 4-4. Its just that in 2-4, 3-4,4-4 the beat can only have divided into 2/4/6/8, but in 6-8,9-8,12-8 it can be divided into 3/6/12

I didn't explain that very well, its way easier to just draw on a page. in a rush right now but i'll try and explain better later or answer any questions to suss stuff out.

Ziltoid

You're all overcomplicating this shizznizzle.

First number is number of beats per bar
Second number is the type of beat

That's time signitures covered

ie

5/4= 5 quarter notes(crotchets) per bar 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5
6/8= 6 eigth notes(quavers) per bar 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
7/16= 7 16th notes per bar 12345671234567
3/2= 3 half notes(minims) per bar 1 2 3 1 2 3



http://www.myspace.com/inkspastic

BossArky

Ziltoid wrote: »

You're all overcomplicating this shizznizzle.

First number is number of beats per bar
Second number is the type of beat

That's time signitures covered

ie

5/4= 5 quarter notes(crotchets) per bar 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5
6/8= 6 eigth notes(quavers) per bar 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
7/16= 7 16th notes per bar 12345671234567
3/2= 3 half notes(minims) per bar 1 2 3 1 2 3



http://www.myspace.com/inkspastic

+1

JC 2K3

Given that every time signature is written in the form nx/ny, is the value of n just a guideline depending on the general contents of the majority of bars? Or is there a specific, rigid method for determining the value of n?

BobTheBeat

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Given that every time signature is written in the form nx/ny, is the value of n just a guideline depending on the general contents of the majority of bars? Or is there a specific, rigid method for determining the value of n?

I think your referring to a scenario where an entire song is not in a specified time signature, yes? Well in that case, if a change takes place, the new signature is written at the start of the bar wherein it applies. Then it when that bar ends, you are back to regular time, (unless otherwise specified)