How does one record thy vocals..

dav nagle

I am posting a thread that hopefully shall be peaceful and calm from my fellow 'crazy' engineers especially myself as I have been crazy a few time on boards. (Put your hands up for Detroit).

I would like to know what techniques people use both from a producers/engineer standpoint and from a singers point of view. I would like to hear some feedback from both the full time professional and the part time semi professional. Here is a few questions for starters?

1. A pro mic pre is hot on my agenda, will this drastically improve the sound? and without being a smarty pants I know it is mostly up to the singer to preform on the day.

2.I learnt to use a short delay on a vocal to give it more beef, anyone suggest any other alternatives?

3. Do engineers record the vocal directly into the mix or is there ever a time where they bounce down the music stereo file into multiple mono and import it back into their Daw and then record the vocals over the entire track?

4. Has anyone any tricks or tips using their plug in toolbox?

Thanks


D

red dave

I would add Reverb to the vocal mix

trackmixstudio

Making the singer comfortable is the most important thing.
First of all I always try a Nuemann with a pop shield. This will give you the best audio quality.
Lots of times, especially with rock or metal vocalists, I find that letting them hold an audix i5 or sm57 gets a MUCH better performance.
It is then my job in the mix to make this hand held mic sound good which is a pain in the @ss, but in the end the song sounds better because the vocalist gave a better performance.
In answer to your specific questions:
1. A good mic sounds good but the performance is WAY more important.
2.A short delay can work well, but also try a short plate reverb with the predelay set to a musically relevant interval.
3.I have had a few drinks and can't even begin to understand what you are talking about.
4.URS channel strip pro is really nice for vocals (and everything else). It is really expensive but worth every penny. I like IK's CSR for reverb on vox.

ogy

i like to get the performer to do 3 or 4 good takes, then build a composite track buy going through the tune and looping each line, flicking through the takes, and picking my favourite take of each line.

- For a pop vocal, and if you have a good singer, i get them to listen to the composite track for the little subtleties and then get them to sing it once more as closely as possible to the original. Once i have a level for my main vocal, i bring the second track up to a point where you can just about hear it then pull it back a few db, thickens things up nicely.

- If you record one quality vocal take, and if you have time to mess around, you can get some interesting vocals by recording takes in different ways and layering them e.g. whispery take, take in a corner, in the bathroom etc.

- The old ADT can be nice too for certain styles. Similar to what you mentioned about the short delay, but modulate the delay by a small amount and the little fluctuations add some interest. Obviously can sound a bit Lennony but its fun to mess with!:)

- As mentioned by trackmixstudio adding a predelay to the vocal reverb really helps it sit on top of everything in the mix.

I'd always record the vocal in the mix cos you can make EQ and panning adjustments to all the elements to make them all fit together, usually around the vocal. I think recording over a stereo mixdown is pretty limiting.

Oh yeh and btw Gated Reverb is Back! Check out Kings Of Leon - "On Call"

Einstein

to be honest depending on what the project is about will determine what way the vocals are recorded.
9 times out of 10 we use the Neumann TLM103 and Apogee PreAmp.

We'll do a number of vocal takes, and if the song is done to a click, really try to nail one really good chorus, and use it throughout the track...but again, depending on what kind of project we're doing, we'll sing right through...
Then within pro tools, create a new playlist on the Vox track, and literally go through all the other playlists and take the best sounding parts, so from about maybe 8 or 9 takes, different parts will be taken from each of those to make up one great take.

Once the mixing begins, its a personal preference as to how the vocals are blended into the track...normally we'll start with the Drums, bass, and start mixing in the Vocals from there...depends how i'm feelin on the day tho

PaulBrewer

dav nagle wrote: »

1. A pro mic pre is hot on my agenda, will this drastically improve the sound? and without being a smarty pants I know it is mostly up to the singer to preform on the day.

2.I learnt to use a short delay on a vocal to give it more beef, anyone suggest any other alternatives?

3. Do engineers record the vocal directly into the mix or is there ever a time where they bounce down the music stereo file into multiple mono and import it back into their Daw and then record the vocals over the entire track?

4. Has anyone any tricks or tips using their plug in toolbox?

Thanks


D

1. A pro mic pre is hot on my agenda, will this drastically improve the sound? and without being a smarty pants I know it is mostly up to the singer to preform on the day.

Like nearly everything in Recording - there ain't no rules. If it sounds good it is good.

For a HI-FI sound there ain't nothing to beat a large capsule condenser/capacitor mic into a juicy pre nicely squashed by a comp into a good A2D.

However lots of Metallers etc. use a SM58 (as often does the bould Bono).
The 'bandpassed' sound fits well into a rowdy guitar track.
Showing my age, I remember reading Phil Collins always used a Beyer M88
(I think?)

There are many ways to recorded a cat being skinned....

2.I learnt to use a short delay on a vocal to give it more beef, anyone suggest any other alternatives?

A slapback delay is a wonderful thing - I've recently been told the EchoBoy plugin is a monster and intend to check it very soon.

Your 'beef' can often be added by matching the mic to the singer. Someone with a lot of midrange bark might sound best on a C12 for example, soft as it's midrange is.
Compression can also bring out weight in the tone.

3. Do engineers record the vocal directly into the mix or is there ever a time where they bounce down the music stereo file into multiple mono and import it back into their Daw and then record the vocals over the entire track?

What are you talking about you lunatic? Huh?:D

4. Has anyone any tricks or tips using their plug in toolbox?

Experiment, and don't be shy, if you're unsure, pull out the CD collection (or Empty Trees as you kids do be listening to) and find a track similar in flavour to what you're at and reference that for guidance.

dav nagle

Thanks Paul, Trackmix, Einstein, Red Dave and Ogy, great reply . All this formation is very valuable. So if I may throw out one question that really has been sitting under my cap for a while?


You know when you listen to a Kylie Minouge track and the backing vocals and harmonies sound Really processed. It is hard to explain what I am getting at but you know that really 'shiny' 'sweet' 'sparkling' 'tight' backing vocal? How is this achieved? Do they layer upon layer and then eq the high end and serve verb ? I would really like to know how to get that sensational shinning bright backing vocal sound? Any clues? Sorry for the mediocre description..It was done allot in the 80's I believe and I want to do it .

sei046

Its exactly what you just said. HEAVILY PROCESED. They would be autotuned to take as much "performace" out of it as possible so kylie is still the main focal point. They would also be very compressed. THey would be eqd to sit just with the vocals. So prob a lot of low end taken out and a few narrow cuts to leave space for the main vox. And yes a lot of layering

ogy

yeh layering is definitely the way to go for that pop sheen. probably tonnes of outboard and expensive mics too though:)
Someone once told me a Sony C-500 is a renowned mic for capturing pristine pop vocal tracks, is the mic used by the likes of Dr. Dre for his vocalists and by Madonna too apparently. I've never been able to find out much about it though as its discontinued.

PaulBrewer

sei046 wrote: »

Its exactly what you just said. HEAVILY PROCESED. They would be autotuned to take as much "performace" out of it as possible so kylie is still the main focal point. They would also be very compressed. THey would be eqd to sit just with the vocals. So prob a lot of low end taken out and a few narrow cuts to leave space for the main vox. And yes a lot of layering

Yes sei46 is right. Autotuned, maybe Vocaligned, compressed to death, hacked apart with EQ, beheaded with De-essing and Multitracked forever!

On a related Tangent ....

A good lot of Kylie's stuff was written and recorded by Richard + Julian a UK team known as Biffco. They were based in Windmill for a few years. A Irish man was their engineer Alvin Sweeney.

Maybe he will make a post!

PaulBrewer

ogy wrote: »

yeh layering is definitely the way to go for that pop sheen. probably tonnes of outboard and expensive mics too though:)
Someone once told me a Sony C-500 is a renowned mic for capturing pristine pop vocal tracks, is the mic used by the likes of Dr. Dre for his vocalists and by Madonna too apparently. I've never been able to find out much about it though as its discontinued.

Twas the C800 as far as I remember

http://www.soundpure.com/showProduct.do?id=183

dav nagle

I probably don't have the processing power or the outboard gear. I find when recording that the better something sounds the more taxing it can be on the CPU.

Here are some more questions:

1.Ok so Bono has been mentioned. I heard he uses an sm58 sometimes? What kind of voice has he got? The tone of his voice is low I know that much. What type of delay does he use? Slap back or echo or pre delay?

2. Gated reverb was mentioned , how is this achieved? Does one automate a gate?

3. Plate and spring reverb, whats the difference?

Cheers guys

ogy

thats the one nice one paul!

PaulBrewer

dav nagle wrote: »

I probably don't have the processing power or the outboard gear. I find when recording that the better something sounds the more taxing it can be on the CPU.

Here are some more questions:

1.Ok so Bono has been mentioned. I heard he uses an sm58 sometimes? What kind of voice has he got? The tone of his voice is low I know that much. What type of delay does he use? Slap back or echo or pre delay?

2. Gated reverb was mentioned , how is this achieved? Does one automate a gate?

3. Plate and spring reverb, whats the difference?

Cheers guys

He does, there's one lying on the couch all the time plugged in ready for when the Muse strikes.

Gated Reverb was originally just that , a reverb with a gate after it.
The Phil Collins drum sound (sh@te that's twice I've mentioned him today!) was based on gated reverb.


Plate reverbs was originally actually a metal plate with pickups similar to guitar pickups that a signal was fed into and brought back in the mix.

They're often fairly long and 'dark' and 'smooth' sounding.

Springs were a poor mans Plate, again literally a stretched Spring with transducer either end! Still used on guitar amps.
Recognizable by their 'twangy' sound on large transients.

PaulBrewer

ogy wrote: »

thats the one nice one paul!

The yoke on the back is a heat sink for the electronics.... daft lookin' thing!

dav nagle

PaulBrewer wrote: »

The yoke on the back is a heat sink for the electronics.... daft lookin' thing!

Looks like a beast of a microphone!

ogy

1. Not what you were asking but just thought id mention: Dunno if this is true but I've heard bono records all vocals on sm58 using the monitors, no headphones, bleed and all!

2. No, you put a gate on a very noticeable reverb, so the reverb only kicks in when the singer sings loud enough to trigger the gate. So when the singers singing quietly its up front cos theres no verb, then when he belts it out it sounds like hes in a stadium:) listen to that tune to check it out:
"i'm on call" - dry bit, "too be there!" - reverb bit. i think it got a bit overdone in the 80s but i think it can be cool if used in the right place. Heroes by David Bowie is the famous original track it was used on i think. Bowie was at one end of a long large hall. There were 3 mics, one near, one further away, and one very far away. The second 2 mics were gated so to trigger the second one he had to sing louder and to trigger the third he really had to lash it out! obviously the further two mics picked up a lot more of the natural reverb of the hall, very cool:) Check out heroes too, he gets gradually louder with each verse, so you hear the massive reverb on the last bit "

3. Plate and spring were the old artificial ways of creating reverb. Plate literally involved running the signal to a big metal plate, gold i think was quite good, and running the signal back out off the plate, creating a reverb like effect. They cost a bomb but can sound amazing. Spring is a similar idea but a lot cheaper, just running the signal through a metal spring to create a similar effect, you get it in fender amps. So plate and spring in your waves plugin or whatever are just digital recreations of these effects. Another example of something trying to copy a natural thing but becoming important in its own right, like electric pianos and hammond organs:)

ogy

Looks like a beast of a microphone!

and a steal at only eight and a half thousand dollars:)

dav nagle

Once again thanks for the feedback and on this topic no spill as of yet! (b dum tis!)

1. I see so if I stick a reverb on a channel strip and then stick a gate on it I can achieve this effect with some tweaking? I use pro tools with the good old D-verb and have the waves diamond but I am not really a fan of the Diamond reverb.

2. What is the auto tune ratio? Who uses it, when and why? I have auto-tune but never bother with it. Is it essential?

3. Does Bono lie on the couch in the studio?

ogy

1. yeh. try it with a track that has a nice dynamic range, like quite verses loud choruses or something like that. set the threshold so that the gate only opens when the singer gets to the loud bit, and mess with the release, maybe to make it slam closed on the beat or something.

2. i think auto-tune sounds noticeable and rotten most of the time. i guess in some styles its part of the sound now though.

3. does the pope only use an sm57 on guitar cabs in the woods?

dav nagle

ogy wrote: »

1. yeh. try it with a track that has a nice dynamic range, like quite verses loud choruses or something like that. set the threshold so that the gate only opens when the singer gets to the loud bit, and mess with the release, maybe to make it slam closed on the beat or something.

2. i think auto-tune sounds noticeable and rotten most of the time. i guess in some styles its part of the sound now though.

3. does the pope only use an sm57 on guitar cabs in the woods?

Hey cheers Ogy, great tips. Come on lads keep the vocal tips and tricks coming!!! )

PaulBrewer

ogy wrote: »

1. Not what you were asking but just thought id mention: Dunno if this is true but I've heard bono records all vocals on sm58 using the monitors, no headphones, bleed and all!

2. No, you put a gate on a very noticeable reverb, so the reverb only kicks in when the singer sings loud enough to trigger the gate. So when the singers singing quietly its up front cos theres no verb, then when he belts it out it sounds like hes in a stadium:) listen to that tune to check it out:
"i'm on call" - dry bit, "too be there!" - reverb bit. i think it got a bit overdone in the 80s but i think it can be cool if used in the right place. Heroes by David Bowie is the famous original track it was used on i think. Bowie was at one end of a long large hall. There were 3 mics, one near, one further away, and one very far away. The second 2 mics were gated so to trigger the second one he had to sing louder and to trigger the third he really had to lash it out! obviously the further two mics picked up a lot more of the natural reverb of the hall, very cool:) Check out heroes too, he gets gradually louder with each verse, so you hear the massive reverb on the last bit "

3. Plate and spring were the old artificial ways of creating reverb. Plate literally involved running the signal to a big metal plate, gold i think was quite good, and running the signal back out off the plate, creating a reverb like effect. They cost a bomb but can sound amazing. Spring is a similar idea but a lot cheaper, just running the signal through a metal spring to create a similar effect, you get it in fender amps. So plate and spring in your waves plugin or whatever are just digital recreations of these effects. Another example of something trying to copy a natural thing but becoming important in its own right, like electric pianos and hammond organs:)

1. Not what you were asking but just thought id mention: Dunno if this is true but I've heard bono records all vocals on sm58 using the monitors, no headphones, bleed and all!
Yep, as you say. Though I do think there are times that a 'real' set-up is used.

2. No, you put a gate on a very noticeable reverb, so the reverb only kicks in when the singer sings loud enough to trigger the gate. So when the singers singing quietly its up front cos theres no verb, then when he belts it out it sounds like hes in a stadium:) listen to that tune to check it out:
"i'm on call" - dry bit, "too be there!" - reverb bit. i think it got a bit overdone in the 80s but i think it can be cool if used in the right place. Heroes by David Bowie is the famous original track it was used on i think. Bowie was at one end of a long large hall. There were 3 mics, one near, one further away, and one very far away. The second 2 mics were gated so to trigger the second one he had to sing louder and to trigger the third he really had to lash it out! obviously the further two mics picked up a lot more of the natural reverb of the hall, very cool:) Check out heroes too, he gets gradually louder with each verse, so you hear the massive reverb on the last bit "

Yes that is gated reverb too.

The more common Gated Reverb got popular in the early 80's on drums and is credited to Hugh Padgham who was recording
Phil Collins (3rd mention!) in the Townhouse Studio with an SSL.

Have a look at -

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_phil_collins_air/

The Gated Reverb sound then got very popular when manufacturers started putting similar sounding presets in their Digital Hardware Units which were only starting to appear around that time - I however, could never get them to sound right on a Big Tom track!
I remember the Yamaha Rev 7 and 5 had them and I think the AMS Non Lin setting was the same (StudioRat can correct me there)

dav nagle

I am dying to test out these techniques!!!

dav nagle

Have a look at -

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_phil_collins_air/


God the work Phil Collins put into that track. Great drum sound.

PaulBrewer

dav nagle wrote: »

Have a look at -

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_phil_collins_air/


God the work Phil Collins put into that track. Great drum sound.

Adult Oriented Rock ain't easy you know!

frobisher

ogy wrote: »

2. No, you put a gate on a very noticeable reverb, so the reverb only kicks in when the singer sings loud enough to trigger the gate. So when the singers singing quietly its up front cos theres no verb, then when he belts it out it sounds like hes in a stadium:) listen to that tune to check it out:
"i'm on call" - dry bit, "too be there!" - reverb bit. i think it got a bit overdone in the 80s but i think it can be cool if used in the right place. Heroes by David Bowie is the famous original track it was used on i think. Bowie was at one end of a long large hall. There were 3 mics, one near, one further away, and one very far away. The second 2 mics were gated so to trigger the second one he had to sing louder and to trigger the third he really had to lash it out! obviously the further two mics picked up a lot more of the natural reverb of the hall, very cool:) Check out heroes too, he gets gradually louder with each verse, so you hear the massive reverb on the last bit "

When I was training I heard about this story and it really captured my imagination. Love it! http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Oct04/articles/classictracks.htm

PaulBrewer

frobisher wrote: »

When I was training I heard about this story and it really captured my imagination. Love it! http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Oct04/articles/classictracks.htm

Ah! Back in the day when we had no shoes and ate grass....

Seriously, in da ould days if you wanted to make a 'different' sound you had to actually make it! None of this Plug In messin!

The first studio I worked in had a Great British Spring Reverb, 2 Kepex gates, a Audio+Design compressor and.............................that was it!

I remember making a record (yes THAT far back) with a band called Royal Flush who went on to be Big Generator.

We were mixing and used the GB Spring on the vocal and wanted some reverb for the snare...but only had the spring.
So, we sent out a signal to a speaker in the Kitchen and Miced the return.
Hey presto a short room verb!

That night was very windy and we must have done 20 run throughs to get a take with no creaks from the door in the mix.

It's mad when you think about it now!!

frobisher

PaulBrewer wrote: »

So, we sent out a signal to a speaker in the Kitchen and Miced the return.
Hey presto a short room verb!

Classic! The place I trained in had a huge wooden room that was a venue/sports hall to which we had an xlr snake rigged. Great fun sending drum submixes to a marshall amp with the microphones placed at various points of the hall. Oh the nerdy-ness/

studiorat

I made up a gated reverb today on a mix. Keyed the gate from the snare send, and set it to the tempo (dotted feel of course)! Sinking it back it you can make it sound quite natural, like one of those small booshy drum rooms.