Cancer Misdiagnosis Who's To Blame?

pfkf1

Yesterday, 3 reports were released, and we had Drum and Harney both saying there were failures, how come then no-one is responsible or accountable, Last night on the 6.01 news Drum said the "buck stops with me."

Do you think that Drum should go or Harney or both?

My own opinion is that both should go, as they are both a disgrace who show no courage, no vision, and no responsibility and the decent thing both of them should do is resign.

And Michael Martin should resign his post also as he has had a part in this sorry affair, he was made aware of this very issue, in 2002, and did nothing, he ignored the problem, he is also not fit for Office.

Auditor #9

Harney is justifying the centres of excellence now on Oireachtas report on the grounds that those tests should never have been carried out in Portlaoise. She's saying that women are voting with their feet now and going to those centres of excellence.

A 'systemic failure' is getting the butt of the blame now.

What the hell was the doctor involved with this actually doing?! (Ann O'Doherty)

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0306/breaking11.htm

stepbar

This is Ireland.... No one is to blame, remember?

pfkf1

Things need to be done, there is no accountability regarding health in this country, Now I don't believe in a 2 tier health service, I think that will be a disaster for this country, but if the government are going to force through a 2 tier health service against the wishes of the Irish people, the very least that we should expect is accountability.

The simple matter of fact that there was an ignoring of this problem for the last 6 years, until the problems reared their head in such an ugly way, the simple matter of fact is that both Martin, Harney and Drum are responsible for this, and all of them should go at once.

Gurgle

The same old problem in our so-called healthcare service.

The paperwork is done, re-done on a different colour form, checked, signed off, copied and filed.

Meanwhile, theres no supervision, review or double-checking on the medical staff.

Everybody makes mistakes, its the human condition.

How would the mistakes ever be caught when all the time, money & effort go into arse-covering paperwork instead of healthcare?

Auditor #9

Gurgle wrote: »

Everybody makes mistakes, its the human condition.

How would the mistakes ever be caught when all the time, money & effort go into arse-covering paperwork instead of healthcare?

Yes it's a systemic problem as you are saying rightly above. We don't put any value on allowing systems to develop which suit the particularities of a situation or unit - solutions are simply 'put in place'. You 'put in place' a bus shelter, not a system for dealing with cancer treatment and care.

It's possible that Portlaoise, for one place, has been adjusting to the hse changes being implemented there leading to such a failure. If so could Harney or Drumm have foreseen such issues with the implementation of such a project?

And, as the Opposition are saying, was/is that system appropriate for Ireland in the first place?

Raintonite

Tis Ireland, so nobody. When health care is privatised, as it will be, then only the average punter can be blamed. If he/she gets cancer and they can't afford treatment, it's their individual fault as they didn't make enough dosh. Problem solved. When all such problems are solved in this manner, the government can meet one day a year for a booze up without having to think about pesky little problems like this. Oh, and to pressure for another pay rise.

Heinrich

Simple answer - Ms Harney! She set that HSE disaster up and appointed Drumm. If she made such a whopping mistake in the private sector she would probably be in jail.

Sadly she is just at the top of the list of the incompetent ministers. Next on the list would be the minister for happiness.

Remember who voted this lot in. Those who did should share sme of the blame.

Heinrich

Heinrich wrote: »

Remember who voted this lot in. Those who did should share sme of the blame.

Fact of the matter is, the people who voted this lot in by and large don't get sick.They are awash with materialism and want to keep the monkey that feeds the materialism.
They want 3 or 4 hdmi cables in the house and the bouncy castle for the kids.

Because they don't get sick by and large then this is interesting news to them but irrelevant.
You can ask them in a poll if they are horrified and faced with that question,they'll probably answer yes-simply because they were asked.
But because it's irrelevant to their lives on a day to day level,they'll just get on with buying that extra hd telly.
Meanwhile when it comes to election time,selfishness will kick in and they vote the way they do.
It's a fact of life and the naked truth.

You can diss people like that but they form too significant a majority of the electorate,for people like you to do anything about it.

They're probably like me and buy private health care for less than a grand a year and be done with it,making what goes on in the public health service doubly irrelevant to them.
Personally I do care about the state of the public health service alright but I'd never use it , not in a million years when theres a cost effective almost effecient alternative available to me.
I've no faith in it being anything more than slightly improved either as if you were to rationalise and improve it,all you'd get is strike after strike after strike probably by ironically a lot of the very people who don't vote for the current government.

I'd have to say, life means more to me than to put up with that so I just by pass it.
Ergo I bypass the moaning which is also good for my mental health

Auditor #9

Deleted User wrote: »

They're probably like me and buy private health care for less than a grand a year and be done with it,making what goes on in the public health service doubly irrelevant to them.
Personally I do care about the state of the public health service alright but I'd never use it , not in a million years when theres a cost effective almost effecient alternative available to me.

So do you think that the misdiagnoses would not have happened had these patients been privately cared for?

Your post is scarily reflective of the truth by the way.

partholon

Heinrich wrote: »

Simple answer - Ms Harney! She set that HSE disaster up and appointed Drumm. If she made such a whopping mistake in the private sector she would probably be in jail.

Sadly she is just at the top of the list of the incompetent ministers. Next on the list would be the minister for happiness.

.

actually this is spot on.

ordinairly i'd blame either the doctors involved or, if the regime they were forced to work in meant they were over worked/under rersoursed and hence liable to make mistakes, the management who rostered them/ supplied the tools necessary in such a way.

and i'd demand the fcuckers were sacked. period.

but mary's said its a "systemic failour". SHE set up the system in its present form, so seeing as shes exempted the staff responsible for this that makes her responsible.

i wasnt one of those demanding her or drumms head. its ultimately the managements fault. but by blaming the system harneys taken the blame on herself and in that light , she should go.

partholon

Deleted User wrote: »

.



They're probably like me and buy private health care for less than a grand a year and be done with it,making what goes on in the public health service doubly irrelevant to them.
Personally I do care about the state of the public health service alright but I'd never use it , not in a million years when theres a cost effective almost effecient alternative available to me.
I've no faith in it being anything more than slightly improved either as if you were to rationalise and improve it,all you'd get is strike after strike after strike probably by ironically a lot of the very people who don't vote for the current government.

I'd have to say, life means more to me than to put up with that so I just by pass it.
Ergo I bypass the moaning which is also good for my mental health

man , i hope you dont get sick anytime soon because private health care does fcuk all for you.

i know 3 people whove had to go to hospital recently who've been private suscribers for decades.

NONE of em could get into a private clinic.

it might be grand for getting your expense's back later or dealing in cosmetic/non essential health care but in the real world private health care is a fecking scam. if you need urgent attention odds are you'll still end up down an A&E for 3 days looking for a bed in a public ward before you'll get any come back from bupa or vhi.

you want my advice? save your money and fcuk off to france on a "holiday" and use their health service.

905

Heinrich wrote: »

Simple answer - Ms Harney! She set that HSE disaster up and appointed Drumm. If she made such a whopping mistake in the private sector she would probably be in jail.

Sadly she is just at the top of the list of the incompetent ministers. Next on the list would be the minister for happiness.

Remember who voted this lot in. Those who did should share sme of the blame.

I wouldn't go so far as that. The cards were on the table for the PDs before the election and nobody thought they would be allowed back in Health, never mind carry on as before. I don't think FF is following the wishes of their electorate on this one.

Does this government have any ambition to be re-elected? They all seem to be acting like Bertie, not giving a damn because they won't be contesting another election. I can understand Bertie and Harney not caring (doesn't make it right though) but what about the rest of them?

I suppose the idea behind putting Harney back in Health was filling the Angola post with a non-FFer. Never mind that it was apparant during the elections that the HSE wasn't a roaring success. Never mind that the public had voiced their opinion of the PDs. FF first, country later. But did they not think how such a move would look? Harris' appointment to the senate pales in comparison with this (though I remember he was speculating about a possible cabinet post where he could take on the Islamo-Provo-Nazis). But in the long term this is going to sting FF.

meriwether

Someone is to blame.
It may not necessarily be Harney or Drumm, but to blame a systemic failure is nonsense.
The HSE systems are made up of people and processes. Each process is the responsibility of someone.
Outdated technology - thats the fault of someone.

But there is zero accountability within the HSE.
And zero accountability breeds its own problems. We saw this in the corporate scandals in the US- there was a consequence of malpractice - firms collapsed.
The consequence of malpractice in a Health service - someone dies, or loses a breast.

gordon_gekko

recent experience has shown me that private health care is seriously over rated
for instance , its not worth the paper its printed on if you happen to show up at casualty in a public hospital ,i dont live in dublin so a private hospital is simply too far away

private health care is about making money for the likes of sean quinn plus doctors and consultants who like to make another 225k on there private time


there are 2 reasons people become doctors , they come from doctor stock or they are social climbers
oh yeah and the moneys good

Akrasia

When this topic first came up on this forum
here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055177332&highlight=misdiagnosis&page=3
I suggested that the 'individual radioraphers' who were being blamed for the misdiagnosis were being scapegoated for wider systemic failures.

Needless to say, I was laughed at by a certain moderator.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54362390&postcount=44

The recent developments make it clear that the minister and senior figures in the HSE were informed that the machines were faulty almost a year before, and they still insisted on blaming the individual front line staff and potentially ruining their careers to cover up their own failures.

partholon

partholon wrote: »

you want my advice? save your money and fcuk off to france on a "holiday" and use their health service.

Frankly thats terrible advice

akrasia wrote:

The recent developments make it clear that the minister and senior figures in the HSE were informed that the machines were faulty almost a year before, and they still insisted on blaming the individual front line staff and potentially ruining their careers to cover up their own failures.

It always fascinates me the different takes people have on similar things depending on a predisposed viewpoint.
For instance,I look at the situation in apparently a polar opposite way to you.
My take would be that you do have to concentrate resources into adequately located centres rather than trying to have one in every town or every few towns.
In this case we have 9 mistakes (yes 9 not 99) out of how many? being mis diagnosed in an inadequately resourced hospital compared to say Dublin based ones.
In adequately resourced in the sense that there was only one doctor making the decisions compared to a prefered position of having a few.

I've heard great things about the Cuban health service (A friend on holiday there last year had to go in) but frankly,I'd travel an extra 40 miles to get expert help than have to put up with the cost of needlessly resourcing a hospital in every other town with everything other than say an essential A&E.
Thats imbyism at its worst.


As regards the competence of the doctor concerned,it just shows how easy it is for a doctor on his/her own to occassionally get things wrong.
Lesson? Go and concentrate the resources within an acceptable distance and make them good there.
Of course this is Ireland,there'll be a lot of spanners thrown in the works by short term thinking imbyists and general stupid howling and screaming by said imbyists in the meantime.
My nearest hospital A&E is 30 miles and that is on the East Coast.
Cancer care is either 40 or 60 miles away depending on which one you choose.
Not too bad in my opinion and certainly comparable to where people near Portlaoise will be soon hopefully-except they will have a better service.

I'd respectively suggest that theres a lot more to getting things right than blaming a minister.
Start by looking at the electoral spanner throwing of imbyists's and unions.
Consign that to the dustbin in favour of pragmatism and we'll get somewhere.

pfkf1

I heard Michael Martin saying this morning, that he is not to blame as he signed a cheque to fix the problem, but the money wasn't spent where it should have been by the health board.

Is that good enough, I don't think so, he should have followed up the cheque, and made sure the money was spent correctly, he didn't and he failed to do his job.

Eamonn Gilmore, and James Reilly have both called for either, Michael Martin or Mary Harney to be sacked from their ministerial posts over this mess.

Neither are fit for office and both should go in my opinion.

partholon

i was listening to that myself.

classic "not my fault!" arse covering. the craps really hitting the fan over this letter. martin tried to dismiss if but the fact is these guys were denying it ever existed till it was stuck under their noses.

fierce similar to the "missplaced" dossier he was supposed to read last time around in regards to another issue.

Akrasia

Deleted User wrote: »

Frankly thats terrible advice :)It always fascinates me the different takes people have on similar things depending on a predisposed viewpoint.
For instance,I look at the situation in apparently a polar opposite way to you.
My take would be that you do have to concentrate resources into adequately located centres rather than trying to have one in every town or every few towns.

Portlaoise was supposed to be a centre of excellence, it was designated as a breast cancer centre 7 or 8 years ago.
The equipment was faulty and needed to be replaced, but government policy is fixed on creating the conditions for a private health care market (and that requires letting the existing system fall into disrepair to generate pent up demand for private services)

I've heard great things about the Cuban health service (A friend on holiday there last year had to go in) but frankly,I'd travel an extra 40 miles to get expert help than have to put up with the cost of needlessly resourcing a hospital in every other town with everything other than say an essential A&E.
Thats imbyism at its worst.

Again, Portlaoise was supposed to be a specialist centre for the treatment of breast cancer.
Your comment about 'travelling 40 miles for treatment' is very crass.
Are you suggesting that all medical treatment in the whole country other than A&E should be provided in one or two super hospitals and if you need to travel 8 hour round trips several times a day to access the treatment, you should suck it up?

As regards the competence of the doctor concerned,it just shows how easy it is for a doctor on his/her own to occassionally get things wrong.
Lesson? Go and concentrate the resources within an acceptable distance and make them good there.

Given you're in favour of concentrating services in order to build up expertise, I assume you're opposed to private hospitals.
How is it morally justifiable to shut down public hospitals to make room for private hospitals? And if there's only room for a small number of high capacity hospitals, why is harney pushing for the development of dozens of brand new hospitals in the private sector?

I'd respectively suggest that theres a lot more to getting things right than blaming a minister.

The minister has failed in all of the initiatives she has been responsible for. At what point does here honeymoon period end? At what point do we hold her to account?

pfkf1

pfkf1 wrote: »

Eamonn Gilmore, and James Reilly have both called for either, Michael Martin or Mary Harney to be sacked from their ministerial posts over this mess.

Neither are fit for office and both should go in my opinion.

I'd kind of agree and disagree.
Martin is just in my opinion a do enough to get you by sort of person.
He's a product of the town council of bally begorrah attitude that was pervasive during the health board mess that was our health system.
Imbyism galore with jobs for the bous galore probably making the admin the size that it is now and hard to reverse.
For instance the HSE is the same size administeratively as it's old counterparts as ye know.
Why? For the reason I pointed out.Too many people to be sacked so that kind of upheaval was to be avoided.

It's natural to think Rielly and Gilmore would downsize it but Hello do ya really think so?
Gilmore is too tied to the unions to sack people and Reillys party was part and parcel of the local health board system for so long appointing people right left and centre that expecting them to go on a rationalisation spree is a bit much too.

Just like you're never going to get Munster supporters to praise Leinster players or one GAA parish team to praise or not slag the other,your not going to get rid of the short sightedness and imbyism that is actually at the root of this problem in my opinion.
It's endemic,systematic and it's symptoms come out in every politician.
Would that perfection was mandatory but really here in Ireland, the work is cut out for you to change the mindset and the expectations to something approaching realism.
Good luck with that

At least Harney is heading against the wind somewhat towards previous incumbants,albeit a tad unsucessfully.

gandalf

To be honest there should be multiple firings/resignations. Harney and Drumm at this stage should go, neither seem to be in control of their respective organisations. The HSE is massively oversubscribed on admin and middle management staff. These should be cut down and those that are left made work as if they were in the private sector. The only problem is we need politicians who are honest, hard working & stead fast to carry out such a clean up on the Health Service. I look at Dail Eireann and I see no one who is capable of such actions.

The only reason the Health Service functions is the dedication of the front line staff, which I unfortunately have seen close hand due to family illnesses over the last couple of years. If the management in the HSE, the staff in the Department of Health or the politicians who claim to represent us showed just a degree of the dedication of the front line Health Workers then this situation will be sorted.

Oh just in case people think that their VHI, Quinn or Vivas will give them superior service in the Health Service, they should think twice. Health Insurance is fine if you are having planned elective treatment. If you have an acute illness you will be in the Public system, they will of course charge your Health Insurance though.

pfkf1

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd kind of agree and disagree.
Martin is just in my opinion a do enough to get you by sort of person.
He's a product of the town council of bally begorrah attitude that was pervasive during the health board mess that was our health system.
Imbyism galore with jobs for the bous galore probably making the admin the size that it is now and hard to reverse.
For instance the HSE is the same size administeratively as it's old counterparts as ye know.
Why? For the reason I pointed out.Too many people to be sacked so that kind of upheaval was to be avoided.

While I agree with that, on the other hand it is not good enough, to say "sure he wouldn't know any better" He was minister for Health, he was made aware of the problem, he half did his job, this is not good enough, he should go, or she should go.

As for the HSE, having too many staff, we all know that is the case, but most of that is in admin staff, what needs to be done, is as follows

1. An agreement with all vested interests in the health service, to agree to an audit and agree to accept the findings.
2. Carry out the audit, on every aspect of the health service, from technology, equipment, labs, hospital cleanness, amount of doctors, how good their performance. I mean every last detail, it may take 2 years to carry out but needs to be done yesterday.
3. Publish the report, and if the report suggests that we have 5,000 too may admin staff, then they should go, simple.

This is the only thing that is going to sort out the health service, we need to sit everyone down, get them to agree, that the health service is a mess, get them to agree, that something needs to be done, get them to agree to the audit and get them to agree to the findings and recommendations of the audit without any complaints or strikes, for the benefit of the health of this country, which is a complete shambles.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote: »

Portlaoise was supposed to be a centre of excellence, it was designated as a breast cancer centre 7 or 8 years ago.
The equipment was faulty and needed to be replaced, but government policy is fixed on creating the conditions for a private health care market (and that requires letting the existing system fall into disrepair to generate pent up demand for private services)

So you say regarding government health policy.So you say.

Again, Portlaoise was supposed to be a specialist centre for the treatment of breast cancer.
Your comment about 'travelling 40 miles for treatment' is very crass.

Your attitude there is Perfect example of the imbyist attitude thats at the heart of the problem and an example of the throw the resources every few miles approach.
The latter is laudable but impractical from a cost point of view and an effeciency point of view.
Cost wise because your work is going to be cut out making the case for the inevitable rise in taxes to the party generation.

Are you suggesting that all medical treatment in the whole country other than A&E should be provided in one or two super hospitals and if you need to travel 8 hour round trips several times a day to access the treatment, you should suck it up?

Now don't be exaggerating there for effect Sir.
I did not say one or two hospitals and I don't know of any patient that has to to and fro several times a day to a hospital for chemo or to see the same doctor.
Thats ridiculous and doesn't inspire confidence in the rest of what you might have to say.

Given you're in favour of concentrating services in order to build up expertise, I assume you're opposed to private hospitals.
How is it morally justifiable to shut down public hospitals to make room for private hospitals? And if there's only room for a small number of high capacity hospitals, why is harney pushing for the development of dozens of brand new hospitals in the private sector?

Upset you a bit now have I? Given that you want to talk about something else ideological.
Doesnt surprise me that you'd want to veer away to something else given you made some ridiculous point about cancer patiens having to too and fro home and back to a hospital several times a day.

The minister has failed in all of the initiatives she has been responsible for. At what point does here honeymoon period end? At what point do we hold her to account?

You see this is the narrow attitude thats pervasive with you it seems.
Your answer sack the minister.
How about trying to persuade the mindset instead thats causing the problem.Less of the imbyism and more of the realism.
I'd see nothing wrong with 5 or 6 hospitals adequately resourced or 7 even.

By the way, my private health insurance will cover me for accomadation when getting treatment away from home and even for relatives who must visit me.Not bad for less than a 1000 bucks a year.
You'll have to convince me very strongly to go the public route when thats on offer.I've long since lost faith in change there though for the reasons outlined.

Heinrich

There's a lot more to the HSE debacle than the 9 cases of cancer misdiagnosis. There are many other area in cancer alone which are not being discussed. Cervical cancer screening is one major issue that has been swept under the carpet.

Mental health for young people. Dentistry for young people. Proper services for autism in young children. Cystic fibrosis treatment for young people. There is a very long list of incompetence of the HSE, Drumm and Harney.

We won't mention maternity hospital facilities. Still, you go with your idealism and pay your VHI but try not to become ill in the meantime.

gandalf

gandalf wrote: »

Oh just in case people think that their VHI, Quinn or Vivas will give them superior service in the Health Service, they should think twice. Health Insurance is fine if you are having planned elective treatment. If you have an acute illness you will be in the Public system, they will of course charge your Health Insurance though.

In fairness,My Mum went into a public A&E on a friday and stayed on a trolly untill a monday morning whereupon her specialist arranged for a private ambulance to bring her to Blackrock clinic and a private room all paid for by health insurance.I know because I got the statements.Thats what convinced me to keep mine come hell or high water.
That said I don't want to go into that story any further for obvious reasons.

As regards Harney,my own personal view would be sacking her would be a token waste.
I'm not of the view that she has super human powers capable of over coming decades of sloth in the running of the service.She'll be gone anyway by the nexty election.
I am of the view though that this service is not going to improve much because the will isn't there to improve it.The politicians are only as good as the people that put them there and with Very few exceptions (Joe Higgins was one),politicians once elected rarely if ever want to do anything other than look over their shoulder in fear of those extra few votes they need to be re elected.
There we have it.
Magic wand please

partholon

so your gonna block A&E for 3 days? thanks alot

in seriousness, your ma was lucky. my best mates dad has been with VHI since the 1950s. when he needed treatment blackrock was a no go, ditto for beacon, he had to get the GP to refer him to tallaght A&E where he spent 3 days in a SEAT before getting the colonosopy he needed and was stuck in a public ward.

privates good for non essential stuff but when you get serious it all gets chucked back to the public sector.

guinnessdrinker

I can't see either Martin or Harney beig sacked, I would be absolutley amazed if the gov had the balls to do it.

I do think Harney should resign though. I know that by her resigning the problem isn't going to be solved but she is being paid the big bucks to sit at the top of the ladder and shows no responsibility for it. Her resignation (or sacking) would send a message to the subsequent Minister fof Health to get their act together and sort out the Health system in Ireland. Harney has had four years to do it and has failed so bring someone else in.

Auditor #9

pfkf1 wrote: »

While I agree with that, on the other hand it is not good enough, to say "sure he wouldn't know any better" He was minister for Health, he was made aware of the problem, he half did his job, this is not good enough, he should go, or she should go.

As for the HSE, having too many staff, we all know that is the case, but most of that is in admin staff, what needs to be done, is as follows

1. An agreement with all vested interests in the health service, to agree to an audit and agree to accept the findings.
2. Carry out the audit, on every aspect of the health service, from technology, equipment, labs, hospital cleanness, amount of doctors, how good their performance. I mean every last detail, it may take 2 years to carry out but needs to be done yesterday.
3. Publish the report, and if the report suggests that we have 5,000 too may admin staff, then they should go, simple.

This is the only thing that is going to sort out the health service, we need to sit everyone down, get them to agree, that the health service is a mess, get them to agree, that something needs to be done, get them to agree to the audit and get them to agree to the findings and recommendations of the audit without any complaints or strikes, for the benefit of the health of this country, which is a complete shambles.

Yes yes yes - and do some comparisons with other EU countries into the bargain if not similar international countries if that was possible. I'm sure there are plenty of disgruntled groups in other countries which could lend some data. A comparison like this might shock us out of our insularity.

This is exactly what the Opposition need to be turning their energies to - let the facts and stats hang Harney and whoever. If the Germans can have salaries of X for medics then why do we have to have salaries of X*Y because I believe it's a multiple.

Look under every stone, count every public paid taxi trip, every piece of equiptment and employ professionals from the private industry to do assessments of the public. Shame the shaggers out of it.

EDIT
If it takes 5 years it will be a job well done by the Opposition I swear to you.

partholon

interesting aside but i was listening to newstalk during the week and theyve essentially been blacklisted by the HSE for "harassing " their public relations staffer i.e phoning him up on a regular basis looking for info for listeners caught in a bind. and refuse to put a spokesperson up now when they cover issues

theyve also pulled all advertising revenue from the station.

nice little republic we have here isnt it ?

Auditor #9

Well, is that comment really an aside? The Newstalk woman ultimately wanted someone to take responsibility when they were clearly shirking her off. They told her to go through the press office and that they were not obliged to speak to her live on air, unannounced. Fair enough to a degree but how long had she been going to the press office?

They're avoiding a lot but blaming someone in particular won't help. I don't even know if making an example of someone helps. The Oireachtas Committee yesterday with Brendan Drumm before the Headmaster is something we should get used to seeing on TV. Eamon Ryan is trying to get this live Oireachtas station running and the health service is one thing that should feature prominently with prominent figures being questioned (maybe even by the public) in a public way like this. Let the people decide.