Alcohol and Good Friday (reloaded)

mloc

Flukey wrote: »

I am not, but others apparently are. They do not want anything the church agrees with to be dictated to us by the state.

Murder is universally immoral. Not drinking on a particular arbitrary day has no innate morality outside of a religious context.

KoolKid

doonothing wrote: »

The fact of the matter is that if I want to drink today, I'll drink, if I don't want to, I wont, but it shouldn't be any more or less convenient to do so because of a religion I feel no obligation to. It's a matter of principle. Of course it's not that bad to not drink for one day, but that should be my decision and no one elses! Why is it legal to sell meat and not drink today anyway?

Exactly, why does the church not insist that it should be illegal for MacDonalds to open on good friday?

Flukey wrote: »

Fair enough Mloc, so we'll allow murder as a lot of religions think that is wrong too.

There is also religions that think it is ok, Should we allow it for that reason?

mloc wrote: »

Not drinking on a particular arbitrary day has no innate morality outside of a religious context.

A total waste of Garda resources. I wonder how many Guards are in on overtime today enforcing this outdated law.

JC 2K3

koolkid wrote: »

A total waste of Garda resources. I wonder how many Guards are in on overtime today enforcing this outdated law.

Good point, actually, since Jakkass was arguing that the reason for alcohol being unavailable was to make the day more peaceful for Christian Gardaí celebrating the day.

Flukey

mloc wrote: »

Murder is universally immoral. Not drinking on a particular arbitrary day has no innate morality outside of a religious context.

No one is disputing that Mloc, but people in this thread have been giving about the government imposing a law that goes along with the church. As it happens, in some quarters drinking alcohol would be regarded as immoral, and there are people who have no problem with murders and don't regard it immoral at all. In some countries a pub would not be allowed to open for 2 days in a year, never mind 363. I don't agree with everything the Irish government does, but I can live with this law, even though I do regularly go out on a Friday night. There are far larger issues to disagree with the government over, rather than bringing little ones like this up. It is the pettiness of this debate that is so amusing. The fact that people get so worked up over a workplace being closed for just two days in the year, one of which hardly bothers them anyway, is laughable.

As I said earlier, there would be uproar if all workplaces were open 363 days a year, even if we still got our statutory amount of days leave. There are lots of places that are closed that probably should be open more often. Banks being closed on a Saturday and banks calling 5pm "late opening", is far more ridiculous than pubs being closed two days in the entire year. It may not be done by legislation, but banks being closed that much is stupid. Here's another crazy one: Buses stopping completely at 11:30pm for an hour with thousands of people looking for transport, and then returning with a limited service, that seems to think that although we've been brought all over the city and county throughout the evening, we'll suddenly all appear around a little triangle of streets in the city centre and all want to go out. That is crazy, and from a state owned company.

There are far more crazy things in this country than pubs being closed on 2 days in the year, the fact that people make an issue of it being one of them, with their added delight that they can blame the church for it. If it was purely a decision of the government, with no connection to the church, you would still get uproar, but not nearly as much. Those making it take no consolation over the fact that there is no Angelus today. That is one issue they take up which just takes up two minutes in the day, which across a full year is far less than two days that the pubs are closed. The majority of people don't notice that there is no Angelus today, and equally the majority of people in Ireland have absolutely no problem with pubs being closed today, no matter what the reason behind it is, religion or otherwise. Some, drinkers included, may not even know. After Hours is renowned for its silly threads over silly issues, even getting mentions in national newspapers from some of them, and this is another silly issue for people to be making something of. Some night we can discuss it all over a pint in a nice pub on the southside of Dublin, where we both live. It shouldn't be too hard to find a suitable day. We have 363 a year to choose from.

javaboy

Flukey wrote: »

No one is disputing that Mloc, but people in this thread have been giving about the government imposing a law that goes along with the church.

More correctly, they have been giving out about the government imposing a law because it goes along with the church. That's an important distinction which you continue to ignore.

There are far larger issues to disagree with the government over, rather than bringing little ones like this up. It is the pettiness of this debate that is so amusing. The fact that people get so worked up over a workplace being closed for just two days in the year, one of which hardly bothers them anyway, is laughable.

It's irrelevant how big or small an issue it is.

As I said earlier, there would be uproar if all workplaces were open 363 days a year, even if we still got our statutory amount of days leave.

Why would there be uproar? It's not like anybody would be forced to work more days than is legal.

There are lots of places that are closed that probably should be open more often. Banks being closed on a Saturday and banks calling 5pm "late opening", is far more ridiculous than pubs being closed two days in the entire year. It may not be done by legislation, but banks being closed that much is stupid.

Yes that's annoying but the point is that if a bank wants to open late it can. That's a commercial decision. This is a law.

Here's another crazy one: Buses stopping completely at 11:30pm for an hour with thousands of people looking for transport, and then returning with a limited service, that seems to think that although we've been brought all over the city and county throughout the evening, we'll suddenly all appear around a little triangle of streets in the city centre and all want to go out. That is crazy, and from a state owned company.

What does that have to do with the topic?

There are far more crazy things in this country than pubs being closed on 2 days in the year, the fact that people make an issue of it being one of them, with their added delight that they can blame the church for it.

So what if there are more crazy things going on. Are we only allowed to concern ourselves with the most important issue?

I couldn't care less about the church one way or another. I'm not anti-church by any stretch. But this is a religious law in a non-religious state. It is wrong.

the majority of people in Ireland have absolutely no problem with pubs being closed today, no matter what the reason behind it is, religion or otherwise.

Source?

philologos

javaboy wrote: »

Why would there be uproar? It's not like anybody would be forced to work more days than is legal.

I think the point of Good Friday being a bank holiday also is to allow Christian workers to be able to worship, and to reflect on the Passion wherever possible.

Red Sleeping Beauty

javaboy wrote: »

Asking? What do you mean asking? Nobody's asking. It's enforced by the Gardaí.

Indeed. Here's the laws - http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2008/en/act/pub/0017/print.html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1927/en/act/pub/0015/print.html

Ctrl + F and then search for "good friday".

Jakkass wrote: »

I think the point of Good Friday being a bank holiday also is to allow Christian workers to be able to worship, and to reflect on the Passion wherever possible.

I want a day off to worship the god of beer but will they give it to me ? Huh ? NoOOOooO!!!!

Ann22

I haven't read all of this thread so maybe someone has said this already but I'd just like to say....to recognise a Fast day like Ash Wednesday or Good Friday means that we have one main meal and two small ones and of course substituting meat with fish....I don't think it means you have to abstain from alcohol. The pubs are closed on Good Friday as a mark of respect 'cos it's an anniversary of the death of Jesus not because we can't drink.

Davidius

Sure, do you not get time off because of religious days anyway?

Sounds like a good deal! :pac:

javaboy

Ann22 wrote: »

The pubs are closed on Good Friday as a mark of respect 'cos it's an anniversary of the death of Jesus not because we can't drink.

It's still for religious reasons, which is nonsense in a secular country.

JC 2K3

Ann22 wrote: »

I haven't read all of this thread so maybe someone has said this already but I'd just like to say....to recognise a Fast day like Ash Wednesday or Good Friday means that we have one main meal and two small ones and of course substituting meat with fish....I don't think it means you have to abstain from alcohol. The pubs are closed on Good Friday as a mark of respect 'cos it's an anniversary of the death of Jesus not because we can't drink.

You're Catholic, a lot of people aren't.

PrivateEye

Booze in the bag and off to a house party to do my secular duty tonight.

Nobody died for me.

The Mad Hatter

Also, Good Friday isn't an anniversary - anniversaries fall on the same date every year.

philologos

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Also, Good Friday isn't an anniversary - anniversaries fall on the same date every year.

Problem: Passover falls on a different date each year also. Jesus was crucified during the Passover festivals. Thus it makes sense to keep it as close to the Passover festival as possible. Jews had their seder yesterday and remember Moses calling them out of Egypt, just as much as Jesus was doing the same thing with His disciples.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

Problem: Passover falls on a different date each year also. Jesus was allegedly crucified during the Passover festivals. Thus it makes sense to keep it as close to the Passover festival as possible. Jews had their seder yesterday and remember Moses calling them out of Egypt, just as much as Jesus was doing the same thing with His disciples.

FYP :P

philologos

Sam Vimes wrote: »

FYP :P

The crucifixion is a historically verified event, I don't doubt that it occurred.

rlogue

Good man Flukey,

It's good to see you're still out here on the Interweb doing what you do best - defending the Irish Status Quo, no matter how bizarre or how outmoded it is. Long ago we used to frequent a now dead board known as "Free the Eritrean One" where Flukey would lob a few conservative catholic grenades into the liberal consensus on that board to mass outrage.

I actually believed Flukey was an auld fella until I saw a picture of him and found out he was actually younger than me. Not difficult mind. Most people are!

However, if there's a bizzare outmoded feature of Irish society out there, Flukey will defend it. Postcodes? Don't need them. Abortion? Don't have sex. The Angelus on TV? Sure, what's a minute of bongs anyway?

I must say I have had a very pleasant Good Friday. I spent most of the day a friend's place where we enjoyed several lumps of finely grilled meat and drank some rather fruity wines to accompany them. Some fine Jamaican Rum (it must have been good, it had a British Royal Warrant on the bottle) finished off the meat-feast nicely.

I find Good Friday a great excuse to eat good red meat and drink fine wine. It just needs a little planning and advance purchases because of our outmoded licencing laws that Flukey makes sure we keep, however no law or church rule is going to stop me from meeting my carnivourous needs.

L'Chaim!

Firetrap

I don't care. As I type this, I've got a can of ice cold Budweiser to hand. (Purchased a couple of days ago - didn't want to seem that desperate)

rainbow kirby

Steak and cider makes a gooooood Friday.

rlogue

Amen to that, sister!:D

rainbow kirby

rlogue wrote: »

Amen to that, sister!:D

FYP :pac:

tippspur

Firetrap wrote: »

I don't care. As I type this, I've got a can of ice cold Budweiser to hand. (Purchased a couple of days ago - didn't want to seem that desperate)

Fair play,just about to lash into a few cans meself right now..:)

philologos

rlogue wrote: »

Good man Flukey,

It's good to see you're still out here on the Interweb doing what you do best - defending the Irish Status Quo, no matter how bizarre or how outmoded it is. Long ago we used to frequent a now dead board known as "Free the Eritrean One" where Flukey would lob a few conservative catholic grenades into the liberal consensus on that board to mass outrage.

So if you are conservative, and Catholic, and you disagree with liberal posters that's called "lobbing grenades". Why should people conform to the "liberal consensus" just for the sake of it? I also don't see how an opposing view should cause "mass outrage" anywhere.

rlogue wrote: »

I actually believed Flukey was an auld fella until I saw a picture of him and found out he was actually younger than me. Not difficult mind. Most people are!

Ad hominems don't really help your point though.

rlogue wrote: »

However, if there's a bizzare outmoded feature of Irish society out there, Flukey will defend it. Postcodes? Don't need them. Abortion? Don't have sex. The Angelus on TV? Sure, what's a minute of bongs anyway?

Abortion is morally contentious still, throughout the world, and not just in Ireland. I'm not sure if being pro-choice is in anyway progressive, but that's for another thread.

As for the Angelus on TV, who cares? A minute or two to reflect before the news if you bother to watch it. It's not as if you are watching a sermon.

rlogue wrote: »

I must say I have had a very pleasant Good Friday. I spent most of the day a friend's place where we enjoyed several lumps of finely grilled meat and drank some rather fruity wines to accompany them. Some fine Jamaican Rum (it must have been good, it had a British Royal Warrant on the bottle) finished off the meat-feast nicely.

I'm glad you did enjoy yourself, I'm also happy that Christians are taking the chance to worship the Passion of Christ.

rlogue wrote: »

I find Good Friday a great excuse to eat good red meat and drink fine wine. It just needs a little planning and advance purchases because of our outmoded licencing laws that Flukey makes sure we keep, however no law or church rule is going to stop me from meeting my carnivourous needs.

Good for you. I don't consider it outmoded to provide a decent and peaceable climate for Christians to be able to worship in though at the same time.

rlogue

Well, why force the rest of us to follow your rules? Are you that insecure in your faith that you need the full force of the state to impose your beliefs on the rest of us?

We don't need the state to reinforce a Roman Catholic prayer on the TV every night except Good Friday and we certainly don't need the state to give bar workers a day off on Good Friday.

Christians are rightly free to worship at any time. Now why do you feel the need to shove your rules down our throats?

philologos

rlogue wrote: »

Well, why force the rest of us to follow your rules? Are you that insecure in your faith that you need the full force of the state to impose your beliefs on the rest of us?

No, I'm not insecure about my faith at all.

You didn't deal with my point concerning the views of conservatives and Catholics in my last post.

rlogue wrote: »

We don't need the state to reinforce a Roman Catholic prayer on the TV every night except Good Friday and we certainly don't need the state to give bar workers a day off on Good Friday.

I don't think we do either, I personally tolerate it however as a non-Catholic, and I think that there is nothing wrong with doing so in the slightest in relation to the Angelus.

rlogue wrote: »

Christians are rightly free to worship at any time. Now why do you feel the need to shove your rules down our throats?

I don't feel the need to shove any rules down your throat. I do support efforts to make the day as peaceable as possible for those who wish to worship the holiest day of the year in Christian though.

Briandamage

mikeindublin wrote: »

Dear God, to think of all the drinkers roaming the streets with nothin' to do on Good Friday. A day without alcohol, hope it won't make people realise how meaningless and direction-less their lives are!

That's exactly what happened me tonight! (And most nights actually since I've moved back to the double-K ghost town...) Oh well, at least the pub is open again in a few hours

KoolKid

Ann22 wrote: »

The pubs are closed on Good Friday as a mark of respect 'cos it's an anniversary of the death of Jesus .

Anniversary? Really?? What date did he die then??

Jakkass wrote: »

The crucifixion is a historically verified .

Verified?? How? Source??

philologos

koolkid wrote: »

Verified?? How? Source??

For Christ's crucifixion it is documented in extra-biblical works:
Tactius' Annals:
http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.html

The Babylonian Talmud (over 10,000 pages hardly easy reading, Jewish priests spend their whole lives studying it):
http://wilkerson.110mb.com/index.htm

Lucian of Samasota:

The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day,--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account

Also concerning the Holy Sepulchre:

Wikipedia wrote:

However, it has since been determined that the site was indeed outside the city walls at the time of the crucifixion. The Jerusalem city walls were expanded by Herod Agrippa in 41–44, and only then enclosed the site of the Holy Sepulchre, at which time the surrounding garden mentioned in the Bible would have been built up as well. To quote the Israeli scholar Dan Bahat, former City Archaeologist of Jerusalem: "We may not be absolutely certain that the site of the Holy Sepulchre Church is the site of Jesus' burial, but we have no other site that can lay a claim nearly as weighty, and we really have no reason to reject the authenticity of the site.

Note it isn't the Crucifixion that is being doubted here, but rather the location of said crucifixion.

Concerning Christ's existence:
Josephus' - The Jewish War:
http://classics.mit.edu/Josephus/j.bj.html

Josephus' - Jewish Antiquities:
http://classics.mit.edu/Josephus/j.aj.html

Pliny the Younger's correspondence with Trajan:
http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/pliny.html

In the Jewish Antiquities the figures of John the Baptist, James the Righteous, and Pontius Pilate are also verified.

KoolKid

Jakkass wrote: »

For Christ's crucifixion it is documented in extra-biblical works:
Tactius' Annals:
http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.html

The Babylonian Talmud (over 10,000 pages hardly easy reading, Jewish priests spend their whole lives studying it):
http://wilkerson.110mb.com/index.htm

The romans crucifixed loads of people. The story of Christ is no more verified than any other religions .
If its verified where then how does faith come into it?

philologos

koolkid wrote: »

The romans crucifixed loads of people. The story of Christ is no more verified than any other religions .
If its verified where then how does faith come into it?

I don't think I need to have faith in the Crucifixion or the existence of Christ, just in that Christ is who He said He was, the Son of God, and the Lamb of God who would take away the sins of the world, the Messiah, and the bringer of the New Covenant and that He rose again on the Sunday.

N.B I don't need to have faith in the Crucifixion, or Christ's existence, as it is widely written of, and many secular historians accept it. It's more accepting what happened to me anyway. I personally don't doubt the existence of the Buddha either. I accept the Buddha existed, but do I have to have faith in the Buddha? Of course not.