Alcohol and Good Friday (reloaded)

philologos

JC 2K3 wrote: »

It's intolerant towards my beliefs.

Here's a thought: if Christians didn't want to drink on Good Friday, they could just not drink? Why impose it on other people who don't believe we shouldn't drink on Good Friday?

RLY? Is it a tenet of atheism to purchase drink on Good Friday? Why can't one merely just buy drink for themselves on the Thursday and keep it until the Friday and then consume it? It's hardly that much of a restriction is it?

They could just not drink, but if the Government wants to respect cultural values in the State it might be prudent to get behind it occasionally. For example in Israel they take Shabbat from 6pm Friday to 6pm Saturday, yet nobody deems it to be forcing Jewish beliefs upon the general population. Likewise, Pizza Hut and other outlets only serve kosher food, this isn't forcing Jewish beliefs on others.

JC 2K3

Jakkass wrote: »

RLY? Is it a tenet of atheism to purchase drink on Good Friday? Why can't one merely just buy drink for themselves on the Thursday and keep it until the Friday and then consume it? It's hardly that much of a restriction is it?

Atheism isn't a belief system.

I just personally would support secularism.

It's not a big restriction, but it's a restriction nonetheless, and an unecessary one.

Jakkass wrote: »

They could just not drink, but if the Government wants to respect cultural values in the State it might be prudent to get behind it occasionally.

So you're essentially saying the Government should be actively promoting Christianity? :S

Jakkass wrote: »

For example in Israel they take Shabbat from 6pm Friday to 6pm Saturday, yet nobody deems it to be forcing Jewish beliefs upon the general population. Likewise, Pizza Hut and other outlets only serve kosher food, this isn't forcing Jewish beliefs on others.

Is the Shabbat a law? Like public parks etc. being closed in Northern Ireland on Sundays in the past? If so, I'd very much dispute that "nobody deems it to be forcing Jewish beliefs upon the general population", I would contest that many non-Jews living in Israel would likely feel this way (Actually, from Googling, I see that it is not in fact a very strict law, it's observed in different degrees depending on the religiousness or secularness of the area. Also, they're seeking to relax the law even more: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/126959). As for Pizza Hut etc., that's just basic capitalism. If non-kosher food won't sell, then why would they serve it?

philologos

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Atheism isn't a belief system.

Fair enough.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

I just personally would support secularism.

I personally think secularism can go too far. People claim it is to support minorities, but in a survey carried out by the BBC in the UK, most of those of Sikh, Hindu and Muslim minority groups said they would prefer a Christian motivated State to a secular one.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

It's not a big restriction, but it's a restriction nonetheless, and an unecessary one.

I think some people use secularism to justify nitpicking.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

So you're essentially saying the Government should be actively promoting Christianity? :S

I don't see anything wrong with being culturally sensitive to the majority group in a country, or to recognise that a country has a Christian heritage behind it.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Is the Shabbat a law? Like public parks etc. being closed in Northern Ireland on Sundays in the past? If so, I'd very much dispute that "nobody deems it to be forcing Jewish beliefs upon the general population", I would contest that many non-Jews living in Israel would likely feel this way (Actually, from Googling, I see that it is not in fact a very strict law, it's observed in different degrees depending on the religiousness or secularness of the area. Also, they're seeking to relax the law even more: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/126959). As for Pizza Hut etc., that's just basic capitalism. If non-kosher food won't sell, then why would they serve it?

Yes Shabbat is a law, it's a day of rest. I believe in the past they had issues with medical centres being shut on Shabbat. As for non-Jews living in Israel, secular Jews by and large consider the Shabbat to be a cultural thing rather than a religious thing. It's like the concept of the Sunday off in Europe.

As for non-kosher food not selling. This isn't true. McDonalds have non-kosher branches, and contrary to popular belief you can buy bacon in Israel.

Other rules in East Jerusalem where the ultra-Orthodox live, concern special buses which have separation between women and men, so as to keep to the Talmudic laws of modesty.

banquo

Look: if Christians don't want to drink on Good Friday then they have that option. What if Good Friday happened on my birthday? My atheist friends and I - who would otherwise love to celebrate in the pub - cannot because of a religious law that was written in a time when the whole country was religious.

Whatever DeV had in mine, we're the ones who have to live here.

A single day of drinking is not a huge deal. It's a tiny deal. But that businesses have to close on a certain day for a religious reason is preposterous. You say secularism can go too far. That's a perfectly valid opinion. I think that personal secularism can indeed go too far, but in a country with a salad of religions the state cannot go far enough.

philologos

banquo wrote: »

It infringes upon my right to choose.

What if Good Friday happened on your birthday?

I think I would respect it as a holy day even if it was my birthday. I consider following God to be more important than focusing on earthly things such as birthdays. Just my view though.

As I've said though, you can buy drink on the Thursday, and have your right to choose on the Friday. It doesn't really affect anyone that much.

Dont be at yourself

I don't see anything wrong with being culturally sensitive to the majority group in a country, or to recognise that a country has a Christian heritage behind it.

It's not a question of the government being culturally sensitive to Christians, it's about the government being culturally insensitive to those who aren't.

By lifting the ban, Christians could still uphold their beliefs and abstain from alcohol. The rest of us could enjoy our own cultural heritage: sharing a few pints in a pub after a busy week with our friends or family.

Seriously, why should it be mandatory? Those who want to practice this stuff surely don't need a nationwide ban to do so, do they?

JC 2K3

Jakkass wrote: »

I personally think secularism can go too far. People claim it is to support minorities, but in a survey carried out by the BBC in the UK, most of those of Sikh, Hindu and Muslim minority groups said they would prefer a Christian motivated State to a secular one.

I don't support secularism to support minorities, I support it because I think religion should be an entirely separate thing to the state.

Jakkass wrote: »

I think some people use secularism to justify nitpicking.

Just because it's not a big deal doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on it.

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't see anything wrong with being culturally sensitive to the majority group in a country, or to recognise that a country has a Christian heritage behind it.

For a start, the census stats are skewed. We might be a majority Christian country still, but not 85% or whatever the census says.

Secondly, I'd be very surprised if the majority of people in this country were Christians who support the prohibition of alcohol sales on Good Friday.

I'd be confident a referendum would see this law abolished.

Jakkass wrote: »

Yes Shabbat is a law, it's a day of rest. I believe in the past they had issues with medical centres being shut on Shabbat. As for non-Jews living in Israel, secular Jews by and large consider the Shabbat to be a cultural thing rather than a religious thing. It's like the concept of the Sunday off in Europe.

Exactly. And they generally don't prohibit anything on Sundays in Europe. It's voluntary and adhered to by those who wish to adhere to it. Shabbat law seems to be going that way, and it's a positive thing IMO.

Jakkass wrote: »

As for non-kosher food not selling. This isn't true. McDonalds have non-kosher branches, and contrary to popular belief you can buy bacon in Israel.

Well, the point is, it's not a law, it's voluntary.

philologos

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

It's not a question of the government being culturally sensitive to Christians, it's about the government being culturally insensitive to those who aren't.

I don't see how it is culturally insensitive, when people can clearly get alcohol for themselves a previous day.

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

By lifting the ban, Christians could still uphold their beliefs and abstain from alcohol. The rest of us could enjoy our own cultural heritage: sharing a few pints in a pub after a busy week with our friends or family.

They could, however the State has clearly decided to respect the Christian heritage of this country and to create a cultural norm that is to be held by it's citizens. There is nothing stopping you having a few points in a pub after a busy week, with your friends and family any other week, this is merely one day we are speaking of. Or God forbid, you could actually just drink at home for one day of the year?

JC 2K3 wrote: »

I don't support secularism to support minorities, I support it because I think religion should be an entirely separate thing to the state.

I'm becoming less and less sure of this every day as I see other countries taking it too far. I hope to God that they won't take it too far here.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Just because it's not a big deal doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on it.

Did I say you couldn't? I'm not here to censure your opinion, but rather just to have a casual back and forth on the subject

JC 2K3 wrote: »

For a start, the census stats are skewed. We might be a majority Christian country still, but not 85% or whatever the census says.

95% (90% Catholic, 5% Protestant). I don't believe it for a second either.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Secondly, I'd be very surprised if the majority of people in this country were Christians who support the prohibition of alcohol sales on Good Friday.

I'd be confident a referendum would see this law abolished.

I'd support a referendum on it.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Exactly. And they generally don't prohibit anything on Sundays in Europe. It's voluntary and adhered to by those who wish to adhere to it. Shabbat law seems to be going that way, and it's a positive thing IMO.

I think Shabbat law shouldn't go that way. If Israel wishes to have a Jewish identity it's perfectly reasonable that there should be such cultural norms associated with it. I don't think knocking down cultural norms is really that good an idea, but apparently you're ready to come in with the bulldozer with them

JC 2K3

Jakkass wrote: »

I think Shabbat law shouldn't go that way. If Israel wishes to have a Jewish identity it's perfectly reasonable that there should be such cultural norms associated with it. I don't think knocking down cultural norms is really that good an idea, but apparently you're ready to come in with the bulldozer with them

Not really. Basically, IMO:

Democracy > Cultural Norms.

dublinario

As both a raging alcoholic and a Christian fundamentalist, Good Friday poses a unique set of problems for me. On the one hand, I need to drink until I pass out; but in doing so, I fear my God will smite me. Over the last couple of years, I've found heroin to be a good surrogate for beer on Good Friday, and one with which God has no clear, documented beef.

philologos

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Not really. Basically, IMO:

Democracy > Cultural Norms.

I'll be waiting for the plebiscite then. There's currently no evidence that this is contrary to democracy or democratic will. If said evidence is produced then the Government should accomodate this.

Dont be at yourself

They could, however the State has clearly decided to respect the Christian heritage of this country and to create a cultural norm that is to be held by it's citizens.

You mean the State has clearly decided to disregard the large minority of non-Christians in the country by enforcing a religious rite indiscriminately.

There is nothing stopping you having a few points in a pub after a busy week, with your friends and family any other week, this is merely one day we are speaking of. Or God forbid, you could actually just drink at home for one day of the year?

God forbid, we could be allowed make the choice for ourselves? I don't see what business it is of the government or of Christians if I want to go to my local pub on the long weekend. Why should I be forced to drink at home, or drink midweek, just because of another person's beliefs?

'Treat others as you want others to treat yourself' does not mean enforcing your own religious beliefs on others.

Gadfly

I am sober 16 years and I still believe people should have the right to buy alcoholic beverages on Good Friday or any other time for that matter! :mad:

mloc

It's just another hangover from our church poisoned past. The sooner all references to God and so on are stripped from the constitution the better, religions should get no more benefit than a social club should.

People have the right to delude themselves but that right should not extend into letting those delusions effect the law of the state.

philologos

mloc wrote: »

It's just another hangover from our church poisoned past. The sooner all references to God and so on are stripped from the constitution the better, religions should get no more benefit than a social club should.

People have the right to delude themselves but that right should not extend into letting those delusions effect the law of the state.

Church poisoned? I'm left to wonder what happened to you to make you so bitter? Over a single day where you cannot buy alcohol, it really isn't that big a blight. Please tell me what the issue is with buying drink on the Thursday and drinking it on the Friday?

mloc

Jakkass wrote: »

Church poisoned? I'm left to wonder what happened to you to make you so bitter? Over a single day where you cannot buy alcohol, it really isn't that big a blight. Please tell me what the issue is with buying drink on the Thursday and drinking it on the Friday?

It's the principle of it. Some deluded unfortunates decided that for some bizarre and frankly, comical reason alcohol should not be consumed on a particular (and at this stage, chronologically arbitrary) day and this delusion was passed into legislature.

It is a source of embarrasment that part of our country's constitution is based on the belief that a carpenter's son, who supposedly died over two thousand years ago in a completely different part of the world, must be placated by abstaining from alcohol for a day.

philologos

Why is Christianity any more deluded than anything else? Because you deem it so?

mloc

I'm not going to start into a debate on why any belief in a God is good bad or otherwise.

The fact that legislation is based on completely unfounded blind faith of any kind is problematic, whether it's a good friday prohibition or sharia law. Shades of grey, tbh.

hideous ape

I pay my taxes and I work bloody hard all week. Good Friday is just another Friday for me and I want to go out to a gig or bar and have a few pints at the end of the week. I shouldn't have to prepare my social life because a religion that has nothing to do with me has a rule in it.

Imagine if on a specific day of the year all Catholics were expected to travel to Rome for some major outdoor money-making...I mean Holy event. So everything shutdown in Ireland so that those that practised could head off to Rome. Now I want to order a pizza and go to a bar but can't because the pizza place is closed and so are the bars. Our state is independant from religion and therefore religious rules and days should not be legally imposed on people like me who do not follow that particular brand of fiction.

Eric Cartman

does anyone know if pubs in teneriffe close on good friday ? i should hope not because i plan to be slaughtered drunk there

mikemac

I've read the last five pages.
In fact I posted on Page 1 back in 2008

And it's the thread with the same points this as 2008 and 2007 and ever since I joined boards.....

On to my point, two lousy days a years so people should have nothing to complain about.
If you are stuck you:

1. have a houseparty, watch the supermarkets queues this Thursday evening!
2. Get yourself in a hotel as a resident. Some hotels have residents bars though I'm not sure what most hotels are doing
3. I've heard drink is served on trains though that might be an urban myth

Sorted!

SV

Why should non christians have to go out of their way for the sake of christians?

hideous ape

SV wrote: »

Why should non christians have to go out of their way for the sake of christians?

Exactly my way of thinking...if us heathens are all gonna miss out on heaven then we'll just have to make up for it during life;)

philologos

SV wrote: »

Why should non christians have to go out of their way for the sake of christians?

I don't know, maybe to respect the Christian tradition that this island has inherited since the days of Patrick and other missionaries?

mloc

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't know, maybe to respect the Christian tradition that this island has inherited since the days of Patrick and other missionaries?

That I'm afraid is a non-sequitor. By the same logic should we not still sacrifice animals on the equinox by law to respect the even older pagan traditions?

SV

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't know, maybe to respect the Christian tradition that this island has inherited since the days of Patrick and other missionaries?

Why would non christians want to do that?

hideous ape

I also believe human sacrifice may have also been popular among our ancient relatives...ie bog bodies. So is anyone up for a bit of human sacrificing?

We live in a modern secular Republic but some laws are in effect for religious reasons. I don't believe in your religion but I am a citizen of this state so I am bound by the laws of this state.

People can worship the Holy Order Of Doughnuts for all I care...it's none of my business. But I should not have to obey or shape my life in ANY way for laws that are founded from a religion that I don't follow.

philologos

mloc wrote: »

That I'm afraid is a non-sequitor. By the same logic should we not still sacrifice animals on the equinox by law to respect the even older pagan traditions?

If you want to do that sure go ahead.

I don't think it is too much to ask for off-licenses and pubs not to sell alcohol for a single day, especially so when you can buy it the day before? I've yet to see how you're "going out of your way" to accomodate Christianity.

Random

Jakkass wrote: »

If you want to do that sure go ahead.

I don't think it is too much to ask for off-licenses and pubs not to sell alcohol for a single day, especially so when you can buy it the day before? I've yet to see how you're "going out of your way" to accomodate Christianity.

It's one group of people inflicting their beliefs on another.

SV

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't think it is too much to ask for off-licenses and pubs not to sell alcohol for a single day, especially so when you can buy it the day before? I've yet to see how you're "going out of your way" to accomodate Christianity.

Why on earth do you think you have the right to ask Off Licenses and Pubs for anything?

for old times sake?