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Alcohol and Good Friday (reloaded)

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    #152
    hideous ape
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭hideous ape


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Depends if you want to include the days of Saints. I personally believe all Christians are saints, as Paul refers to them as such at the beginnings of his letters to the new and rising Christian communities. However, this isn't a traditional Roman Catholic view by any means.

    For the love of bingo-wings this is like arguing with yourself in the mirror. People who are Christian believe their views should be forced on the rest of us. The non-believers feel that the choice should be up to the individual and not pushed on anyone as a state law. You are a believer who takes the Bible at face value. I and other atheists however take the Bible as a man-made novel with some history, some myth, lots of inaccuracies and a large dollop of made up rubbish.

    Like abortion, the choice should be available for each and every individual to make themselves...not a state law forced on everyone.


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    #153
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    hideous ape wrote: »
    For the love of bingo-wings this is like arguing with yourself in the mirror. People who are Christian believe their views should be forced on the rest of us.

    You can still drink on Good Friday, the only question that is raised is how does one acquire it. As such there is still a choice element involved.

    I'm not hugely opposed to drinking on Good Friday, I think the law should be kept as a matter of reverence for the day itself.
    hideous ape wrote: »
    The non-believers feel that the choice should be up to the individual and not pushed on anyone as a state law. You are a believer who takes the Bible at face value. I and other atheists however take the Bible as a man-made novel with some history, some myth, lots of inaccuracies and a large dollop of made up rubbish.

    Fair enough. As for taking the Bible at face value. I don't see what you mean. The Bible is far more than a book of regulations to me but an entire world view, a facinating text of the highest order. Taking it at face value wouldn't do it justice. It's something I'll be seeking to understand for the rest of my life.
    hideous ape wrote: »
    Like abortion, the choice should be available for each and every individual to make themselves...not a state law forced on everyone.

    When the choice amounts to the death of another individual, that's when I personally don't tolerate it.


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    #154
    hideous ape
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭hideous ape


    Jakkass wrote: »
    You can still drink on Good Friday, the only question that is raised is how does one acquire it. As such there is still a choice element involved.

    You keep missing the fundamental point...my actions have to be changed or shaped because of a religion that I have nothing to do with. Your believe should have no effect on my life and my believe should have no effect on yours. If I want to drink in my local on Good Friday and my girlfriend and I choose to have an abortion then that should be none of your business...ON ANY GROUNDS! Imagine if it became an atheist state law that on Xmas day everyone was banned from going to any church. I could use the same argument against you..."sure can't you pray at home or pray in the church the day before". In this example your actions would have to be shaped or changed because of a state law layed down according to one set of beliefs. A set of beliefs that you do not follow.

    Again you seem to firmly believe that it's perfectly acceptable for your reverance for Good Friday to be enforced by state law on me. Religion has no place in state affairs, religion is a life choice and as such it should have no binding state laws that effect all citizens. Even something as minor as selling alcohol on Good Friday.


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    #155
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    hideous ape wrote: »
    You keep missing the fundamental point...my actions have to be changed or shaped because of a religion that I have nothing to do with. Your believe should have no effect on my life and my believe should have no effect on yours. If I want to drink in my local on Good Friday and my girlfriend and I choose to have an abortion then that should be none of your business...ON ANY GROUNDS!

    Out of interest if you were in Saudi Arabia or Iran or some other country where alcohol was difficult to obtain would you be making the same points?

    I will state I've not been to either country so I don't know how foreigners get alcohol but would you be giving out all the same?


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    #156
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    hideous ape wrote: »
    You keep missing the fundamental point...my actions have to be changed or shaped because of a religion that I have nothing to do with.

    Have you formally left the church?
    Sure you're going to reply that you didn't have a choice in joining. But have you left or done anything about it? No is I'm guessing is the answer


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    #157
    hideous ape
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭hideous ape


    mikemac wrote: »
    Out of interest if you were in Saudi Arabia or Iran or some other country where alcohol was difficult to obtain would you be making the same points?

    I will state I've not been to either country so I don't know how foreigners get alcohol but would you be giving out all the same?

    I don't think those countries are Republics with religious freedom and tolerance enshrined in their Constitutions. This Republic was originally fought and killed for so that we all had the freedom to live how we wanted and without state persecution based on religious grounds. Sadly the Catholic hardliners took control of the State and it held our nation back from the 1930's up until the last 20 years. We probably need another 20 or 30 years before we are a truly developed nation.


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    #158
    Random
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,080 ✭✭✭✭Random


    mikemac wrote: »
    Have you formally left the church?
    Sure you're going to reply that you didn't have a choice in joining. But have you left or done anything about it? No is I'm guessing is the answer
    You have to formally leave the church? Screw that to be honest. I don't recognise the membership as having existed in the first place.


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    #159
    hideous ape
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭hideous ape


    mikemac wrote: »
    Have you formally left the church?
    Sure you're going to reply that you didn't have a choice in joining. But have you left or done anything about it? No is I'm guessing is the answer

    Like most atheists I was forced to go to Church up until I had the intellect to question the whole stage show. So at around the age of 12 I weighed up everything and reached the conclusion that there is more chance of me leaping over the moon in a single jump as any religion been true. Now at the age of 32 I still haven't seen or read anything to change my mind. I base my view on my experiences and all the advances the human race has made not on the experiences of some illiterate people 2000 years ago.


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    #160
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    hideous ape wrote: »
    I don't think those countries are Republics with religious freedom and tolerance enshrined in their Constitutions. This Republic was originally fought and killed for so that we all had the freedom to live how we wanted and without state persecution based on religious grounds. Sadly the Catholic hardliners took control of the State and it held our nation back from the 1930's up until the last 20 years. We probably need another 20 or 30 years before we are a truly developed nation.

    Well you'll have to forgive me for not reading the Saudi Arabian or Iranian constitution but you didn't answer my question at all.

    Firstly you say the Republic was founded so that we all had the freedom to live how we wanted and without state persecution based on religious grounds

    Fair enough but the 1937 constitiution recognized the special position of the Catholic Church. Now this reference is now gone but the Republic was not instituted until 1949, 12 years later.
    So where is This Republic was originally fought and killed for
    Because it wasn't before the constitution for sure


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    #161
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    hideous ape wrote: »
    L I base my view on my experiences and all the advances the human race has made not on the experiences of some illiterate people 2000 years ago.

    2,000 years ago eh?
    Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were illiterate.
    Most of being tough for your teacher to explain all the x's and other marks in the bible they read to you.

    Criticize the early church if you want but they weren't illiterate. This is leaving aside the other gospels too.


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    #162
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Terry wrote: »
    It's the fact that we are deprived of the choice due to archaic laws that people disagree with.

    After 800 years of being told what to do by the british, is it a massive shock that when the church tell us what to do, we rebel?

    I really dislike being told what to do. Certain things are necessary. For example, taxes, I hate to say it, taxes are necessary. How else will roads and hospitals be built. That said, tax the pint and then tell me when I can and cannot buy it is just daft.

    Roll on 24 licensing. 365 days a year. 366 in a leap year!!!


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    #163
    Sir Digby Chicken Caesar
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,556 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    syklops wrote: »
    . For example, taxes, I hate to say it, taxes are necessary. How else will roads and hospitals be built.


    Tolls and fees. If you want to use the road, you pay for it. If you don't, you don't. Same general idea for healthcare, but alot more complicated and serious.


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    #164
    hideous ape
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭hideous ape


    mikemac wrote: »
    2,000 years ago eh?
    Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were illiterate.
    Most of being tough for your teacher to explain all the x's and other marks in the bible they read to you.

    Criticize the early church if you want but they weren't illiterate. This is leaving aside the other gospels too.

    Surely you do realise that the Bible is possibly the longest running text edit in human history. Bits are removed, bits are added and other bits are banned by the Church over the years. Most of the Bible was not written by people present during the time of Jesus...the earliest fact we know is that some was put together from around 60AD onwards. So roughly one or two generations later based on life expectancy at the time. The majority was written down in the 2nd Century. So yes a lot of the original stories were passed on verbally by illiterate people until it was written down.


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    #165
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Sure wasn't the Bible the inspiration for wikipedia? :pac:


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    #166
    hideous ape
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭hideous ape


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Sure wasn't the Bible the inspiration for wikipedia? :pac:

    Yip I believe wikipedia is the new battleground for God and the Devil. God only allows facts to be posted but the Devil posts naughty made up stuff about people.


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    #167
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Captain Mords Spiced Bum wrote: »
    Tolls and fees. If you want to use the road, you pay for it. If you don't, you don't. Same general idea for healthcare, but alot more complicated and serious.

    Your point is.....?


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    #168
    TwoShedsJackson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,438 ✭✭✭TwoShedsJackson


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Fair enough. As for taking the Bible at face value. I don't see what you mean. The Bible is far more than a book of regulations to me but an entire world view, a facinating text of the highest order. Taking it at face value wouldn't do it justice. It's something I'll be seeking to understand for the rest of my life.

    It's probably fair to say from this and other posts, that you're a fundamentalist.

    Can I ask, assuming you're Irish or were born elsewhere into a predominantly Catholic society, do you think if you'd been born in a mainly Islamic country you would attach the same importance to the Qu'ran, or to the Talmud if you were Jewish etc?


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    #169
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    TwoShedsJackson wrote: »
    It's probably fair to say from this and other posts, that you're a fundamentalist.

    Interesting, I go to a rather traditional church, and I usually respect the beliefs of others in public and see them as my equal. As such I don't think I take a fundementalist distortionist view of Christianity. I'm trying my best to be as positive an influence to other people as possible. I don't think it's too much to ask for people not to buy drink on two days of the year (Good Friday, and Christmas). That's my main point. I don't see how that brands me as what you have described.
    TwoShedsJackson wrote: »
    Can I ask, assuming you're Irish or were born elsewhere into a predominantly Catholic society, do you think if you'd been born in a mainly Islamic country you would attach the same importance to the Qu'ran, or to the Talmud if you were Jewish etc?

    I'm Irish, but not Catholic. Anyhow I'll deal with your question. I think that I may well be Muslim or Jewish. However I do know of many exceptions to the case who have converted from both Islam, and Judaism to Christianity. So I think that given the global nature of Christianity, that I might have found God even in cultures such as these where people are becoming Christians on a daily basis.


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    #170
    TwoShedsJackson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,438 ✭✭✭TwoShedsJackson


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Interesting, I go to a rather traditional church, and I usually respect the beliefs of others in public and see them as my equal. As such I don't think I take a fundementalist distortionist view of Christianity. I'm trying my best to be as positive an influence to other people as possible. I don't think it's too much to ask for people not to buy drink on two days of the year (Good Friday, and Christmas). That's my main point. I don't see how that brands me as what you have described.

    I don't use fundamentalist there as a slur, more that you seem to regard the Bible as an actual blueprint for living your life on a daily basis here in the 21st century. You quote it on a literal level to describe how you think others should behave.

    I don't think it's too much to ask people to not buy drink two days of the year, either, but I do think it should be up to them to decide, and not to the State, via a religious institution, to prescribe the two days in question.

    For many people, denying them access to something they desire simply motivates them to obtain it by other means, witness queues out the door of offies the Thursday evening prior to Good Friday, and stockpiling of drink at Christmas as if the shops would never open again.
    I'm Irish, but not Catholic. Anyhow I'll deal with your question. I think that I may well be Muslim or Jewish. However I do know of many exceptions to the case who have converted from both Islam, and Judaism to Christianity. So I think that given the global nature of Christianity, that I might have found God even in cultures such as these where people are becoming Christians on a daily basis.

    OK, so you clearly feel Christianity is innately superior to Islam or Judaism - two religions which can really be viewed as branches of the same monotheistic original idea of God, which has become distorted over the centuries. All three set out their ideas in a sacred text and are convinced that their followers alone are correct - is it simply your faith that convinces you that you are right?


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    #171
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    TwoShedsJackson wrote: »
    I don't use fundamentalist there as a slur, more that you seem to regard the Bible as an actual blueprint for living your life on a daily basis here in the 21st century. You quote it on a literal level to describe how you think others should behave.

    I didn't. I quoted it to prove that evangelism is a rather regular part of Christian belief. Please don't distort my views. The Bible to me is a guide to my life yes, but it is far far far more than that too. It explains to me why the world is, why people are the way they are, and how we can have a relationship with God. That's more than rule of regulations.
    TwoShedsJackson wrote: »
    For many people, denying them access to something they desire simply motivates them to obtain it by other means, witness queues out the door of offies the Thursday evening prior to Good Friday, and stockpiling of drink at Christmas as if the shops would never open again.

    Go on Wednesday then? :)
    TwoShedsJackson wrote: »
    OK, so you clearly feel Christianity is innately superior to Islam or Judaism - two religions which can really be viewed as branches of the same monotheistic original idea of God, which has become distorted over the centuries. All three set out their ideas in a sacred text and are convinced that their followers alone are correct - is it simply your faith that convinces you that you are right?

    Well Judaism is true too by my book. However Christianity to me is the fulfillment of the Jewish prophesies concerning the Messiah.

    Likewise, Islam contains truth, but Christianity is more accurate I think.


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    #172
    Gummy Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,919 ✭✭✭✭Gummy Panda


    Caoimhín wrote: »
    Maybe not the right forum....

    Does anyone know if the banks are open this Friday (it being good friday)?

    AIB Branches in particular.

    Think so. It's only a holy day and not a bank holiday.


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    #173
    nlgbbbblth
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,668 ✭✭✭nlgbbbblth


    Gummy Panda wrote: »
    Think so. It's only a holy day and not a bank holiday.

    The banks have never opened on Good Friday and this year is no different.


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    #174
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    No wonder the Jews reject it...


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    #175
    Korvanica
    Registered Users Posts: 3,992 ✭✭✭Korvanica


    PARTY!!!!!! YEAAAA


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    #176
    KoolKid
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,789 Mod ✭✭✭✭KoolKid


    Here the thing.. They close the pubs because its a religious thing right.
    Its also a religious thing that your not to eat meat ( why its allright to kill a fish is beyond me though) So why is Mac Donalds etc not made close????


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    #177
    Gazza22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭Gazza22


    It's a big up yours to the ridiculous Christian ethos in Irish law.


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    #178
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    koolkid wrote: »
    Its also a religious thing that your not to eat meat ( why its allright to kill a fish is beyond me though) So why is Mac Donalds etc not made close????

    It makes Biblical sense to try to alleviate drunkeness on a holy day (Ephesians 5:13), it doesn't make Biblical sense to not eat meat.

    Gazza22: Have fun doing that. Doing something merely to oppose the role of Christianity in this country is a bit futile though. What difference does it make?


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    #179
    Gazza22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭Gazza22


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Gazza22: Have fun doing that. Doing something merely to oppose the role of Christianity in this country is a bit futile though. What difference does it make?

    I will :). (Not that that it will be any different from any other Friday) Personal satisfaction. As ridiculous the notion or how futile it may be


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    #180
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Gazza22 wrote: »
    I will :). (Not that that it will be any different from any other Friday) Personal satisfaction. As ridiculous the notion or how futile it may be

    Go have fun then. Christians will be still remembering the Passion of Christ over Easter, and challenging people to take up our cross and follow Him in our daily lives. If you don't want to be a part of it don't. I assume you will be as dedicated concerning Christmas and other Christian holy days throughout the year?


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    #181
    Gazza22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭Gazza22


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Go have fun then.

    Thanks :)
    Jakkass wrote: »
    Christians will be still remembering the Passion of Christ over Easter, and challenging people to take up our cross and follow Him in our daily lives. If you don't want to be a part of it don't. I assume you will be as dedicated concerning Christmas and other Christian holy days throughout the year?

    I tend not to think about the relgious side of things, it's more tradition over religion for a lot of people in modern times tbh. For example my Muslim neighbours happily celebrate the santa claus element of Christmas for their kids. Religion goes out the window.

    Good Friday - Drink

    Easter - Chocolate

    Christmas - Family, drink, food, getting together, gifts

    You get the picture on an atheist's/non-christian's 'dedication'.

    Jebus, aul Máire and the greatest story ever sold aka the bible = poop and don't go through our minds.

    Now you too have fun :)


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