Alcohol and Good Friday (reloaded)

philologos

Gazza22 wrote: »

I tend not to think about the relgious side of things, it's more tradition over religion for a lot of people in modern times tbh. For example my Muslim neighbours happily celebrate the santa claus element of Christmas for their kids. Religion goes out the window.

Because, religion apparently has no place in modern times, despite the 21st century so far being profoundly more marked with religious activity than the last decades of the 20th across the world?

Even though secular trends may have hijacked Christmas over recent years, I find the Christ part to be more important.

mloc

Jakkass wrote: »

Because, religion apparently has no place in modern times, despite the 21st century so far being profoundly more marked with religious activity than the last decades of the 20th across the world?

This is true! Well observed. A marked increase in fundamentalist violence, oppressive right wing religious activity in the US and backpeddling on progressive thinking within the Catholic church.

+1 for religion!

philologos

mloc: Hate to break it to you, I think you'll find that across the world as a whole Christianity in general is increasing rather rapidly, including moderates. It's merely that the world thinks that we need to change the way that we do church that certain groups struggle with attendance.

mloc

Jakkass wrote: »

mloc: Hate to break it to you, I think you'll find that across the world as a whole Christianity in general is increasing rather rapidly, including moderates. It's merely that the world thinks that we need to change the way that we do church that certain groups struggle with attendance.

I would disagree. With the exception of many african states where religion, both christian and islam, is being used as a means of justifying warfare and propogating lies amongst the populace and most of the middle east where Islamofacism is rife, a backlash against religion is present in more enlightened and developed countries.

It's not about changing the way we "do" church. Church has been "doing" us for quite a long time and I will admit its remarkable ability to reinvent itself to carry on misleading, lying and in many cases murdering in its name is impressive. This infectious, self-righteous nonsense seems to prosper best in poorer times, no doubt due to its deluded and empty promises of hope and I fear that a global economic reccession will only serve to have more credulous fools joining the ranks of these churches.

philologos

mloc wrote: »

I would disagree. With the exception of many african states where religion, both christian and islam, is being used as a means of justifying warfare and propogating lies amongst the populace and most of the middle east where Islamofacism is rife, a backlash against religion is present in more enlightened and developed countries.

Account for South Korea then? The second largest contributor of missionaries in the world right now. I think South Korea could be considered both modern and enlightened, enlightened to the truth of Christ that is (28% Christian, the largest religion in the country currently).

mloc wrote: »

It's not about changing the way we "do" church. Church has been "doing" us for quite a long time and I will admit its remarkable ability to reinvent itself to carry on misleading, lying and in many cases murdering in its name is impressive. This infectious, self-righteous nonsense seems to prosper best in poorer times, no doubt due to its deluded and empty promises of hope and I fear that a global economic reccession will only serve to have more credulous fools joining the ranks of these churches.

Explain why more modern and charismatic churches are growing faster than more traditional churches if it isn't about the way we do church?

As for self-righteous? How? We've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Jesus allows us to put ourselves right with Him before He will return to judge mankind in righteousness (2 Corinthians 5). We can repent of what we have done in the past, and have a chance at new life. I have sinned just as much as anyone else. This isn't a matter of me saying I am better than anyone else. I deserve the same penalty as the rest of us do for our sins. I have received the grace of Christ however.

If an economic recession does bring back people to the truth of Jesus Christ, then that's a victory. I wouldn't consider them fools for making the best decision they will ever make.

Then again, the cross is foolishness for those who are perishing (1 Corinthians 1).

mloc

Obviously everybody does immoral things (sin, of course, a ridiculous piece of religious jargon).

The self righteousness comes in the form of a belief that people can only be saved through believing in the same nonsense as they do. Each religion seems to think it holds the same monopoly on truth.

Your arguments seem to now take the form of bible passages, which I must say is hilarious, as so far that they have no validity except to "believers".

philologos

mloc wrote: »

Obviously everybody does immoral things (sin, of course, a ridiculous piece of religious jargon).

How do you define what is immoral?

mloc wrote: »

The self righteousness comes in the form of a belief that people can only be saved through believing in the same nonsense as they do. Each religion seems to think it holds the same monopoly on truth.

So? I don't think this is self-righteousness, we are all as sinful as eachother. I'm no better than you or any other person. It is only by God's grace which you too can receive that I have been saved.

mloc wrote: »

Your arguments seem to now take the form of bible passages, which I must say is hilarious, as so far that they have no validity except to "believers".

This isn't an argument per sé. It's merely an explanation of how in Christian belief we aren't meant to be self-righteous. Paul quotes Jeremiah saying "If we are to boast at all boast in the Lord". I'm nothing in and of myself if I don't have God with me. So yes, scriptural references indicate that I am basing it on something instead of waffling.

I've yet to hear how South Korea a country which is modern, has adopted Christianity in such large numbers so rapidly so that it is now the state's largest religion there, and how so many South Koreans serve God. You might have seen the incident in Afghanistan in 2001 or 2002 (not quite sure) when the Taleban put a group of South Korean missionaries to death for what they believed in.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

We've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Jesus allows us to put ourselves right with Him before He will return to judge mankind in righteousness (2 Corinthians 5).

Indeed. And let us not forget Chronicles 15:13

Whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman

Killing spree anyone? God says it's ok

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

So? I don't think this is self-righteousness, we are all as sinful as eachother. I'm no better than you or any other person. It is only by God's grace which you too can receive that I have been saved.

His point is that you think that people can only be saved through YOUR god's grace but we don't believe in your god

philologos

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Indeed. And let us not forget Chronicles 15:13

Whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman

Killing spree anyone? God says it's ok

No, God doesn't deem it okay. The penalty for sin is death. If Jesus has atoned for our death through the Crucifixion, we have no right to punish others for their sins as we too have received His mercy. Key difference between Jewish and Christian theology.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

His point is that you think that people can only be saved through YOUR god's grace but we don't believe in your god

I don't think that I can be judged by the local court. That's basically the effect of what you are saying in a Christian context.

Just as the State has dominion over us at a local level. If God is indeed the creator of the world, we are also subject to His law, and His authority. As such He has every right to judge us at the end of time. And, "I don't believe in you" won't be a valid excuse. God in Christian belief is deemed to be apparent through the Creation (Romans 1:20-22), and if the Resurrection is false our faith is in vain (1 Corinthians 15:14).

I don't consider that to be self-righteous, that isn't a profession of self, but rather a profession of God and His glory and authority in the world.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

No, God doesn't deem it okay. The penalty for sin is death. If Jesus has atoned for our death through the Crucifixion, we have no right to punish others for their sins as we too have received His mercy. Key difference between Jewish and Christian theology.

So are you saying that's not in the bible?

Or that he was joking?

Did he have a change of heart and decide killing people wasn't ok anymore? Doesn't sound like something an all knowing and timeless god would do

It's pretty clear cut so I doubt we're misunderstanding it

Or does that not fit with your idea of God so you just ignore that bit?

philologos

Sam Vimes wrote: »

So are you saying that's not in the bible?

Or that he was joking?

It's pretty clear cut so I doubt we're misunderstanding it

Or does that not fit with your idea of God so you just ignore that bit?

No, I'm not saying that it isn't in the Bible. You've just provided the quote. The law of the State of Israel and God's relationship with the Jewish people is a separate covenant relationship than His covenant relationship with the Christians following the Resurrection.

1) The Torah bound State of Israel doesn't exist (modern Israel, contrary to popular opinion is a secular country), therefore the legal Torah laws concerning how Israel was governed can't be applicable. This is the view in both modern Judaism and Christianity. We are subject to the State, as well as to God's moral laws for mankind. (Romans 13).

2) Ceremonial laws concerning animal sacrifice are fulfilled through Jesus Christ. John the Baptist says "Behold the Lamb of God" (John 1:29). Jesus of Nazareth was crucified for our iniquities as in Isaiah 53. On the day of Judgement Christ will pass over all those who believe in Him as the Angel of Death passed over the houses of the Israelites during the Passover (Exodus 12).

As such we are left with Torah law concerning morality. Christians don't govern the State, but rather are subservient to it.

I've explained that the relationship between God and mankind differed between the time of the law of Moses in the sense that if we have received mercy from God through Christ's crucifixion, we are expected to do the same to others. As such we do not have any authority to punish another for their sins.

I don't believe the Bible is a "straight forward" book, or a book that "says it therefore do it". You need to think about the context, the background of the writing, amongst other things. Contrary to popular opinion the Bible is not merely a rule book.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

No, I'm not saying that it isn't in the Bible. You've just provided the quote. The law of the State of Israel and God's relationship with the Jewish people is a separate covenant relationship than His covenant relationship with the Christians following the Resurrection.

1) The Torah bound State of Israel doesn't exist (modern Israel, contrary to popular opinion is a secular country), therefore the legal Torah laws concerning how Israel was governed can't be applicable. This is the view in both modern Judaism and Christianity. We are subject to the State, as well as to God's moral laws for mankind. (Romans 13).

2) Ceremonial laws concerning animal sacrifice are fulfilled through Jesus Christ. John the Baptist says "Behold the Lamb of God" (John 1:29). Jesus of Nazareth was crucified for our iniquities as in Isaiah 53. On the day of Judgement Christ will pass over all those who believe in Him as the Angel of Death passed over the houses of the Israelites during the Passover (Exodus 12).

As such we are left with Torah law concerning morality. Christians don't govern the State, but rather are subservient to it.

Firstly you can say all you want that it only applies to Jews but it's still in our bible

Secondly, if you're telling us to disregard the old testament because it applies to Jews you can't go on to use it as supporting evidence for god because you'd be proving the Jewish god

And finally I can't see anything there that overrules the previous instruction

Edit:unless you're making the point that we can't follow the instruction because the laws of the state apply to us and they overrule it? Surely god's law supercedes state law? And whether the state allows it or not is irrelevant, the fact is God is telling us it's ok to kill people

walshb

SDooM wrote: »

I'm torn between the fact that a religion shouldn't be forcing restrictions on people, and the fact that pub workers deserve a couple of nights off a year as a holiday.

I'm sure pub workers are more than happy to work and they do still get holidays, just like the nurses and Gardai and everyone else. You would swear they were slaves.

My opinion is that if someone wants to open then they should have that choice and not be forced to close all because of some out dated religious law!

I work on Good Friday, as do many other people!

I really believe no day is different from any other and if folks want
to work and earn a few bob, then no law or no lobby should
be stopping them!

That includes every single day of the year!

philologos

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Firstly you can say all you want that it only applies to Jews but it's still in our bible

Moral Torah is binding on all Christian men, judicial and ceremonial have been fulfilled as Christ said (Matthew 5:17). Theres no point in me trying to give you the Christian understanding of it though if you're not willing to be open to it.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Secondly, if you're telling us to disregard the old testament because it applies to Jews you can't go on to use it as supporting evidence for god because you'd be proving the Jewish god

I amn't theres much value in it. Christians view it differently to Jews however. I think the Old Testament is one of the finest religious texts I've ever read in it's own right.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

And finally I can't see anything there that overrules the previous instruction

Because you've disregarded my explanation, which is fair enough despite Paul and others giving a similar view to what I have in the New Testament.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Edit:unless you're making the point that we can't follow the instruction because the laws of the state apply to us and they overrule it? Surely god's law supercedes state law? And whether the state allows it or not is irrelevant, the fact is God is telling us it's ok to kill people

Legal Torah was carried out by the Sanhedrin High Priests. The book of Hebrews in the New Testament tells us that Jesus is the High Priest of Christianity, as such it is Christ's judgement of the Old Testament that matters. How can we take Christ's judgement of the Old Testament into account then? Well, it's rather clear to me, Christ gives his understanding of many Old Testament passages, and we as Christians should apply them to our reading of the Old Testament.

BTW, God is deeming it acceptable to punish people for having foreign gods or idols actually if you read the whole chapter. This was the law of Israel, if you did this you were to die. Paul goes on to note that all sinners are deserving of death in Romans 1, but through Christ's grace we have received an opportunity to put ourselves right with God. NT explains OT in that situation too.

But Sam, since I'm a Christian, everything I explain must automatically be wrong?

Sam Vimes

We're taking yet another thread off topic so I've started a new one to deal with this

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055533968

Flukey

I just knew this topic would be here. You can always rely on it coming up. Twice a year, in the run up to Christmas Day and in particular in the run up to Good Friday, it is always here. It is pathetic. Surely you can go two days out of the entire year without going into a pub. I often go out on a Friday night, but I am sure like me, there are a lot of Friday nights that people are at home. It doesn't seem to bother them. If you go out to a pub every other Friday of the year, then it is probably a good thing to stay at home for one. As every pub is closed, you are not going to miss anything. Come this Saturday night, you'll have forgotten all about the fact that you were not out on Friday. With Monday being a bank holiday, then you'll have Sunday night to go out on too, not to mention Thursday, for those that are not working on Friday. So between it all, you would probably spend more time in the pub over an Easter weekend than you would on most others when the pubs are open on the Friday. It is the same with Christmas, with people spending more time in the pubs over the few days around Christmas than they normally do, even though the pubs are closed on one of those days. I intend to have a few pints over the weekend, but the fact that they pubs are going to be closed on Friday doesn't bother me in the slightest. Sláinte.

Gazza22

This law is one of the last vestiges left in Ireland of the time when the Catholic Church ruled the country and said that all bars must be closed on Good Friday.

People are not willing to have self restraint on this matter because simply, Good Friday is a Christian Religious holiday. To me and any other non-christian or Atheist, Good Friday is just like any other Friday and we should be able to go about our business as normal without fcuking retarded laws influencied by the church getting in our way.

toiletduck

Flukey wrote: »

I just knew this topic would be here. You can always rely on it coming up. Twice a year, in the run up to Christmas Day and in particular in the run up to Good Friday, it is always here. It is pathetic.

One would then expect you not to engage in it (with the most tired argument going to boot)!

I am pie

buy some cans. drink cans. stop whinging. drink more cans. have craic.:cool:

Morag

Gazza22 wrote: »

This law is one of the last vestiges left in Ireland of the time when the Catholic Church ruled the country and said that all bars must be closed on Good Friday.

People are not willing to have self restraint on this matter because simply, Good Friday is a Christian Religious holiday. To me and any other non-christian or Atheist, Good Friday is just like any other Friday and we should be able to go about our business as normal without fcuking retarded laws influencied by the church getting in our way.

Afúckingmen

df1985

im not religious but doesnt bother me.going gym friday evening instead so will wake up with bout 150 quid in my bank account that i would of spent and a few extra calories off the tummy.ive saturday and sunday to put them all back on and spend that money.if it was good tuesday no one would give a ****e.

Flukey

Gazza22 wrote: »

This law is one of the last vestiges left in Ireland of the time when the Catholic Church ruled the country and said that all bars must be closed on Good Friday.

People are not willing to have self restraint on this matter because simply, Good Friday is a Christian Religious holiday. To me and any other non-christian or Atheist, Good Friday is just like any other Friday and we should be able to go about our business as normal without fcuking retarded laws influencied by the church getting in our way.

So I suppose you don't take holidays at Christmas, don't go to Christmas parties, always return your Christmas bonus, and won't be taking Easter Monday off and were disgusted by the fact that your workplace/place of study was closed recently on St. Patrick's Day. You'd probably much preferred to have been able to "go about your business as normal" of studying or working, and you would prefer to do so during Christmas too. You probably also hate the fact that places of education and most workplaces close at weekends, particularly on Sunday. :rolleyes: People have no problem with the good things that come as a result of Christian holidays in Ireland and other positive things that are as a result of Ireland being a Christian country, even the atheists and non-Christians, yet they have a problem with something that happens on just two days in the entire year. There may not be laws associated with those other days, but the Christian Churches don't like murder, so maybe we should get rid of the laws outlawing that too. As I said in my earlier post, the vast majority of us probably don't go to a pub on a lot more than 2 days in the year, including many Fridays, so surely we can deal with 2 days out of the entire year that they are closed, whatever our religious beliefs.

I am looking at this from a common sense perspective, not a religious one. Think of it this way: Imagine the uproar we would have if it was decided that all workplaces and schools and colleges etc. were to be open all but 2 days in the entire year. Boards.ie wouldn't be able to cope with the amount of threads that would come up. Even if we still got our regular allocation of total days leave, people would still be up in arms about it. Many pubs are privately owned, often by families, so they have to keep it going all year round, even though they do get away themselves occasionally. They cannot close the place though, so they have to organise cover. Aren't they entitled to be able to close the place for two days in the year? Workplaces like hospitals or fire stations have to be open all year round, but a pub is not exactly an essential service.

While they will be closed tomorrow, you can see through this thread and others, that many of us will be getting a few cans in tomorrow night, so it is not really affecting us and this thread is just a chance to jump on a bandwagon and vent off. Most will be having a great time tomorrow night, and on Saturday in the pub they'll be telling all their friends how great a time they had, rather than be complaining about the pubs having been closed. Sure, it would be nice to be going to the pub tomorrow night, but we'll survive.

Anyway, if you do stay at home, it'll give you a chance to think about how best to tell your boss or the person that runs your school or college, that you no longer want the place to be closed at weekends, during Easter or at Christmas, and you do not want your Christmas bonus or a Christmas party or any of that stuff ever again, because they all arise out of Christian holidays and other things related to Ireland being a Christian country. As Fr. Ted said "Down with that sort of thing."

So, would you prefer that the pubs be open on those two days of the year, or to keep your Christmas and Easter holidays, Christmas bonus and parties, weekends off etc.? It is your choice, but I know which I would choose. So as much as I like going out on a Friday night like the rest of us here do, I think I can live with the pubs being closed tomorrow. Thanks to Ireland being a Christian country, I am not back at work until Wednesday, and the people that own and run where I work are not even Christian! Happy Easter and enjoy your few cans tomorrow night.

mloc

Flukey wrote: »

Waffle

Firstly, Christmas was around as a holiday long before any carpenter's sons were getting nailed to trees.

Your argument makes no sense. People need weekends and holidays as they are functional important breaks to the working year. Call them something else if you like, but people need time off. Every culture has holidays, and many countries have holidays around the same periods. Ours happen to be Christian, but needn't be. In many countries, holidays are placed to celebrate secular affairs; Labor Day in the US is such an example.

Good Friday, on the other hand, is a purely christian affair, with regulation of alcohol sales on that day directly and exclusively caused by religofacism.

philologos

Religious fascism because you can't buy drink for one day in the year? You sound a bit like an alcoholic?

mloc

Religious facism because a religion is dictating my choices against my will. The fact that it is alcohol is irrelevant.

Flukey

People do indeed need time off Mloc, and that includes publicans. Weekends originate from the combination of the Jewish and Christian Sabbaths. Mid-winter festivals may predate Christianity, but you don't mind taking advantage of the particular things associated with Christmas that I posted about in my last post. We have holidays around secular things too. After Easter, our next one is the bank holiday for May. That is a relatively new thing in Ireland, and it originates from other countries having one for workers at that time of year, similar to America's Labour Day. If you are old enough you may remember the great Mayday marches in Moscow and other communist countries. Our May bank holiday comes from that.

The pubs may be closed tomorrow, but people are stocking up today so it won't really affect them, yet they still complain. Don't forget that hotels can sell alcohol to residents tomorrow. Book into a hotel if you want the bar experience. 2 days in the entire year, and people make a big fuss about it, although you hear very little around Christmas Day, even when that is on a Friday. So in effect this whole debate is about the pubs being closed on one particular day in the entire year. It is a fuss over nothing, no matter what your religious beliefs are or how much alcohol you consume.

Peiking Duck

Cider in the fridge for a day of PS3 and drunken shenanigans

rainbow kirby

Jakkass wrote: »

Religious fascism because you can't buy drink for one day in the year? You sound a bit like an alcoholic?

I almost never drink and I still think that it's absolutely ridiculous that you can't buy drink on Good Friday. The law is pure pandering to the Catholic Church. If Catholics want to choose not to drink on Good Friday, fine, but don't impose it on others who do not share their belief.

Gazza22 wrote:

Good Friday is just like any other Friday and we should be able to go about our business as normal without fcuking retarded laws influencied by the church getting in our way.

+1

javaboy

Jakkass wrote: »

You sound a bit like an alcoholic?

Careful now.

Flukey wrote: »

The pubs may be closed tomorrow, but people are stocking up today so it won't really affect them, yet they still complain.

If the publicans had the choice I'm sure they wouldn't choose to do stocktakes, carpet changing etc. on one of the busiest nights of the week. They're just making the best of a bad situation.