Ronaldo eh?

Dubit10

hamnegg wrote: »

Its Ronaldo's perfornances against top quality opposition. Its as if he goes missing, maybe afraid of the big game?? Pressure off he's brilliant. What game against top class opposition has he dominated? Had a Keane Vs. Juventus/Gerrard Vs. Milan/Gerrard Vs. *******kos/Fabregas Vs. Milan moment??

Any1???

That's an excellent point that is overlooked my the media in general.He is quality against the wigan's of this world but IMO the top players and teams have him in there pocket in the big games.Mind you same can be said for a lot of so called big name players in the premiership.

Unearthly

Xavi6 wrote: »

Clutchin at straws a bit there. Last time I checked all attacking players could dominate a game. The likes of Figo have dominated big games from a wide position. Ronny hasn't (yet of course).

What big games are these? I don't really watch much of Madrid/Barca/Inter/Portugal

I remember Madrid killing Man Utd a few years ago but he had Zidane pulling the strings in midfield

hamnegg

Unearthly wrote: »

I can't think of one but there is a fundamental flaw in your post there.

Keane, Fabregas and Gerrard play in positions that allow them to dominate games.

Fair point. But Ronaldo does go missing against big teams. He does dominate against the like of Fulham, Wigan etc. Why not against the big sides?

Liverpool this season for example. He didn't get a touch. Anderson was my MOM that day. Gerrard got very little at all out of him. Anderson didn't do a whole lot but he stood up when it really mattered

Unearthly

hamnegg wrote: »

Fair point. But Ronaldo does go missing against big teams. He does dominate against the like of Fulham, Wigan etc. Why not against the big sides?

Liverpool this season for example. He didn't get a touch. Anderson was my MOM that day. Gerrard got very little at all out of him. Anderson didn't do a whole lot but he stood up when it really mattered

I agree he doesn't perform in big games and it's disappointing but they do have world class defenders and world class defensive midfielders.

Liverpool for example have Mascherano, he kept Kaka quiet for the CL final till he was subbed(Kaka then went and set up a goal a few mins later)

I'd imagine he'd do the same to Messi

Xavi6

Unearthly wrote: »

What big games are these? I don't really watch much of Madrid/Barca/Inter/Portugal

I remember Madrid killing Man Utd a few years ago but he had Zidane pulling the strings in midfield

I recall at least one game around 2001 between Real and Barca where he turned in a superb performance in a 2-0 win against his old club, getting on the scoresheet as well. That's off the top of my head anyway.

And he did win FIFA World Footballer of the Year for 2001/02.

My point is that a wide player can dominate a big game just as much as a central player.

kryogen

hamnegg wrote: »

Its Ronaldo's perfornances against top quality opposition. Its as if he goes missing, maybe afraid of the big game?? Pressure off he's brilliant. What game against top class opposition has he dominated? Had a Keane Vs. Juventus/Gerrard Vs. Milan/Gerrard Vs. *******kos/Fabregas Vs. Milan moment??

Any1???

Roma last year, next subject, before all the bull**** of how Roma are not great and blah blah blah, since you have included Fabregas v milan that argument wont hold water here

PHB

nipplenuts wrote: »

But, PHB, I think even you will agree your statement above is peurile. The current state of English football is shocking when compared with the last 40 years. The sheer lack of class outside of the top four means the leading pack are playing against fodder week in/out so figures are not comparible with the 1970's 1980's and even 1990's.

We can all see the class in Europe of the top four in England, but where are the rest of them in the Uefa Cup, for example. If the EPL is of such a high standard then surely they wouild also ber dominating in the lesser competition too.

First off, players such as Gerrard, Van Nist, Henry, all great players, haven't been able to do this feat. Even in such a 'crap' league.

Just on this specific point, I think its a load of crap. There's a reason the FA Cup is being won this year by somebody not of the top 4. The League cup was won by Spurs.
Liverpool are under serious threat by 2 teams for their top 4 spot.
The league winning tally is likely to be significantly lower.
There is lots and lots and lots of class all over the league, players like Berbatov, Young, Areteta all doing fantastic.

People havn't done great in the UEFA cup, I accept that, although I still expect Spurs to go through. Nonetheless, losing to Florentina in Italy, or PSV in Holland is not a bad result. They are doing well enough in the cups.
But Bolton were able to beat Athletico Madrid.

I don't think that the premiership has gotten worse in quality. What I do think is that there are about 4 top teams, 7-9 very good teams, 4-5 of which are of serious quality and can challenge the top 4 in most games, especially at home. and then the rest are crap.

Also, I think the whole idea that the league used to be better is equally crap. First off, I don't think anyone on this board was around when Best was playing for United So I can't imagine anyone actually can remember and compare. Personally, I think since the 1990s that I started watching, the legue has gotten noticably better.

p.s. Domination is such a silly requirement for Ronaldo. A midfield can dominate a game, wingers don't as much. They can produce some great stuff going forward, but they are much more reliant on others to give them the ball. They don't win the ball back, or dictate tempo. Ronaldo will never have a Keane like game vs. Juventus. He might have a great attackers game, and do some magic, but he's never gona do what Keane did, nor will he ever do what Gerrard did, it's not like he's gona revert to RB and defend amazingly like

kryogen

Nailz wrote: »

Gerrard Vs. Milan?? Don't you mean Hamann?

+1

hamnegg

Unearthly wrote: »

I agree he doesn't perform in big games and it's disappointing but they do have world class defenders and world class defensive midfielders.

Liverpool for example have Mascherano, he kept Kaka quiet for the CL final till he was subbed(Kaka then went and set up a goal a few mins later)

I'd imagine he'd do the same to Messi

True. Sure didn't Sissoko make a bitch out of Ronaldinho last year!!!

The thing is Arbeloa marked Ronaldo that day. He's not world class as much as i wish he was!

hamnegg

kryogen wrote: »

+1

Missed that sorry. Gerrard had a blinder that night. Hamann was class though. Point being Gerrard did not disappear.

And Roma. Its easy play well when ur playing a team that concedes 7 against you. no real pressure

PHB

Sure its easy to play well against a team that concedes 3 goals in 15 minutes, no real pressure.

hamnegg

PHB wrote: »

Sure its easy to play well against a team that concedes 3 goals in 15 minutes, no real pressure.

CL Final, 3 down. Thats pressure. Can anyone tell me when he's dragged his team on his own ala Keane Vs. Juve? Figo Vs. Barcelona

PHB

2-1 down from the first leg, looking like going out to a talented Roma team, and then utterly destroyed them with a MOM performance.

Now I'm happy to accept that Roma aren't as good as Milan, but to argue that that wasn't a performance where he was unreal is just stupid. Then again, this whole argument is stupid. The internet eh

hamnegg

PHB wrote: »

I'm happy to accept that Roma aren't as good as Milan,

not a top bracket team. They would have hammered Roma without him, even with John O'Shea on the wing!


The chap is brilliant. He has matured a lot from when he arrived at united first. Maybe in the next few years he'll stop hiding in the big games against the big teams.

Mr. Presentable

PHB wrote: »

Also, I think the whole idea that the league used to be better is equally crap.

Why? You only started watching football relatively recently so you have very little perspective. I'm pointing out the gulf between the top clubs and the rest. To spot three players from 16 clubs is not an illustration of depth of quality. The league did used to be better, more competitive. There really was a time when a side could come from relative obscurity and challenge for honours. I offer you Ipswich Town 80/81 -81/82, Derby County 72 and 75, West Brom, Southampton, QPR, Aston Villa.

I am not having a go at C Ronaldo, merely observing he is not offered the quality of opposition he might have had in the past, or have in a different league. Can you imagine Denis Teuart whinging that he's not allowed display his skills? I wonder how a modern player would fare with the likes of Bremner, Styles, Smyth and Jones playing against him, with no "protection" from the ref and proper cloggers for boots.

hamnegg

nipplenuts wrote: »

Why? You only started watching football relatively recently so you have very little perspective. I'm pointing out the gulf between the top clubs and the rest. To spot three players from 16 clubs is not an illustration of depth of quality. The league did used to be better, more competitive. There really was a time when a side could come from relative obscurity and challenge for honours. I offer you Ipswich Town 80/81 -81/82, Derby County 72 and 75, West Brom, Southampton, QPR, Aston Villa.

I am not having a go at C Ronaldo, merely observing he is not offered the quality of opposition he might have had in the past, or have in a different league. Can you imagine Denis Teuart whinging that he's not allowed display his skills? I wonder how a modern player would fare with the likes of Bremner, Styles, Smyth and Jones playing against him, with no "protection" from the ref and proper cloggers for boots.

BRILLIANT

PHB

hamnegg, Roma are currently 2nd in the league, 10 points clear of AC Milan in the league. Yet Fabregas vs. Milan was a top class performance, but Roma vs. Ronaldo wasn't?

The thing about this debate is, it'll never be settled until Ronaldo wins a Champions League final. Luckily, I think this year might be the time :P

Unearthly

nipplenuts wrote: »

Why? You only started watching football relatively recently so you have very little perspective. I'm pointing out the gulf between the top clubs and the rest. To spot three players from 16 clubs is not an illustration of depth of quality. The league did used to be better, more competitive. There really was a time when a side could come from relative obscurity and challenge for honours. I offer you Ipswich Town 80/81 -81/82, Derby County 72 and 75, West Brom, Southampton, QPR, Aston Villa.
.

The competitiveness of a league doesn't define the quality of it.

Eircom League has a different winner most years but wouldn't be near Prem/Serie A/La Liga

Mr. Presentable

Unearthly wrote: »

The competitiveness of a league doesn't define the quality of it.

Eircom League has a different winner most years but wouldn't be near Prem/Serie A/La Liga

Agreed. There would be a relativley even spread of quality and that's the point!

PHB

nipplenuts wrote: »

Why? You only started watching football relatively recently so you have very little perspective. I'm pointing out the gulf between the top clubs and the rest. To spot three players from 16 clubs is not an illustration of depth of quality. The league did used to be better, more competitive. There really was a time when a side could come from relative obscurity and challenge for honours. I offer you Ipswich Town 80/81 -81/82, Derby County 72 and 75, West Brom, Southampton, QPR, Aston Villa.

The league was more competitive. I'm not denying that. What I am denying is that that means that the other teams are ****ter than they used to be. It just means that the top 4 have gotten a lot better.
People talk about how great La Liga is, because the crap teams beat Barca and Madrid all the time, but that's because Barca and Madrid are terrible defensively! It's not that they have better lower table teams, its that they are nowhere near as consistant as the top top 4 in England, especially defensively.

The teams below are just as good, and imo, better than they ever were. It's just that the top 4 have taken the game to a whole new level.
I'm not saying that those 3 players are a reflection of the standard, I'm saying if you look at Everton, Villa, Rovers, City, Porstmouth, Spurs, West Ham you can find real quality throughout the side!
Everton have some great players, Arteta, Cahill, Yakubu
Villa have some great players, Mellberg (who is off to Juve next season), Laursen, Young, Agbanlahor
Rovers have some great players in McCarthy [CL winner btw], Bentley, Pederson
City have some great players, Elano, Pertrov, Dunne, Richards, Benjami
Portsmouth have some good players too, Defoe, Diarra, James, Distin
West Ham have a great player in Ashton and a good player in Parker.
Spurs have some real quality players, Berbatov, Keane, Woodgate, King, Lennon are all very very good players, yet they are only 11th in the league!
There is real quality in the league this year, especially in the defences.

Indeed, the premiership imo has the most top quality central defenders in any league in the world. After the top 4, you have pairings like Dunne + Richards, Distin + Campbell, Woodgate + King, Laursen + Davies, Yobo + Lescott

Unearthly

nipplenuts wrote: »

Agreed. There would be a relativley even spread of quality and that's the point!

imo Ronaldo would score against every team then

hamnegg

PHB wrote: »

hamnegg, Roma are currently 2nd in the league, 10 points clear of AC Milan in the league. Yet Fabregas vs. Milan was a top class performance, but Roma vs. Ronaldo wasn't?

The thing about this debate is, it'll never be settled until Ronaldo wins a Champions League final. Luckily, I think this year might be the time :P

Traore has 1. He didn't play well in the Final. When he does it when the chips are down. Fabregas was up against it last week. United were 4 up by half time.

He layed off a simple ball for Carricks opener(peach of a goal) but that was it until the second half.

When it was 4-0, i.e. pressure off. Great performance all right

Unearthly

hamnegg wrote: »

He layed off a simple ball for Carricks opener(peach of a goal) but that was it until the second half.

When it was 4-0, i.e. pressure off. Great performance all right

He destroyed Panucci I think it was for the 4th goal and slammed it in.

PHB

That's such a terrible way to understand football its unreal In the Roma game, his all round game was amazing, and his end results were great.
The idea that he can't deal with pressure is just so silly, since he just scored against Lyon. That said, his all round game wasn't great. Which counts more

Nonetheless, let's give it some time, next friday will show the next team he'll be up against

hamnegg

PHB wrote: »

Nonetheless, let's give it some time, next friday will show the next team he'll be up against

Fair enough, We'll talk again apres quarter finals!

eZe^

PHB wrote: »

People talk about how great La Liga is, because the crap teams beat Barca and Madrid all the time, but that's because Barca and Madrid are terrible defensively! It's not that they have better lower table teams, its that they are nowhere near as consistant as the top top 4 in England, especially defensively.

Bull**** tbh, Madrid have only become bad defensively recently, and Barcelona have the best defensive record in La Liga. La Liga's top 4 changes regularly (well, 2 of the 4 spots), with the likes of Valencia, Atletico Madrid, Deportivo La Coruna, Sevilla, Zaragoza and Villareal being there in the past couple of years.


Ronaldo's a great player, why dont we leave it at that?

Dubit10

PHB wrote: »

Sure its easy to play well against a team that concedes 3 goals in 15 minutes, no real pressure.

Your being silly now.:o Gerrard was emmence in that game.Are you for real with that comment?

Nailz

Dubit10 wrote: »

Your being silly now.:o Gerrard was emmence in that game.Are you for real with that comment?

Emmence?? I don't think so, Hamann had the game of his life!

PHB

Dubit10 wrote: »

Your being silly now.:o Gerrard was emmence in that game.Are you for real with that comment?

I was pointing out how silly the initial statement was through an apt comparison.

Bull**** tbh, Madrid have only become bad defensively recently, and Barcelona have the best defensive record in La Liga. La Liga's top 4 changes regularly (well, 2 of the 4 spots), with the likes of Valencia, Atletico Madrid, Deportivo La Coruna, Sevilla, Zaragoza and Villareal being there in the past couple of years.

Indeed, their top 4 does change. No denying that. That's because none of the top 4 stepped up. If Ambrovomich hadn't come into the PL, our top 4 would change reguarly, indeed it used to

Barca have concedded 21.
Real have concedded 24.
Villareal have concedded 35.
Atletico have concedded 32.

Arsenal have concedded 21.
United have concedded 15.
Chelsea have concedded 17.
Liverpool have concedded 20.

In the CL, you will find that English teams have a better defensive record also. Marquez is a average player when compared to the top 4 defenders. Pepe is no better than Brown. La Liga defenses are worse, its why their league is much more 'open', despite the fact that Real Madrid or Barca win it every year

Mr. Presentable

Dubit10 wrote: »

Your being silly now.:o Gerrard was emmence in that game.Are you for real with that comment?

Immense.

But couldn't keep his feet, IIRC

flyswatter

He's a very talented player getting better all the time. He's only 22. I can see him having a bigger impact in more important matches as he matures as a player.

eZe^

La Liga is more open because the Spanish style of play is more open. Pepe? He's Madrids 3rd choice defender, he was also not even finished his first season, he was bought as a future prospect. Marquez is also barca's 3rd/ 4th choice CB, he has definitely been playing badly the past 2 seasons but when 2 years ago he was fantastic for both club and Mexico at the WC.

I admit that the top 2 Spanish sides atm have worse defenses than those in the PL, but I also bet if those teams played in La Liga week in week out they'd concede more goals than they currently do.

PHB

Fair enough about those players, and I do think that PL defences would probbaly concede more, but I was just using them to make the point though.

The thing is also, as a team they defend much worse, largely because their midfielders don't defend much That's why they drop so many points though, often getting hit on the break, which happens very rarely to United or Chelsea.
You're right, their open style of play is the reason why they concede more, but it's also the reason the league is more open. It's not because the other teams are better.

Mr Alan

PHB wrote: »

By the age of 23, the following players had won:

Zidane - Nothing
Seedorf - 2 CL's, La Liga, 2 Dutch titles
Maldini - Serie A, 2 CLs
Del Piero - 2 Serie As, 1 CL
Shevchenko - Ukranian League 5 Times
Trezeguet - World Cup, EC
Raul - La Liga twice and a CL
Henry - World Cup, EC
Ronaldinho - Brazilian League, Intertoto Cup
Robinho - La Liga
Kaka' - Serie A
Messi - Still only 20, has won the League and the CL [although played no part in the latter campaign due to injury]

You need to get out more man

eZe^

Messi won 2 league titles btw.

Tusky

How can people even argue against the fact that Ronaldo is top class. He is 23 years old, is a winger and is top scorer in the league and on 30 goals in all comps. Its not even up for debate and I'm a life long Liverpool fan!

In regards to him not scoring against the big teams or not dominating games...you could say the same about any other winger in the world pretty much. Did I mention the boy is 22 ?

hamnegg

Tusky wrote: »

How can people even argue against the fact that Ronaldo is top class. He is 23 years old, is a winger and is top scorer in the league and on 30 goals in all comps. Its not even up for debate and I'm a life long Liverpool fan!

In regards to him not scoring against the big teams or not dominating games...you could say the same about any other winger in the world pretty much.

He is class! But he hides in big games, in my opinion,

Mr Alan

I aint saying he does go missing in big games.

BUT does it really ****ing matter when he does it 4 games out of 5?! he is still world class.

Nunu

Tusky wrote: »

He is 23 years old,

Did I mention the boy is 22 ?

No, you didn't:D

hamnegg

Mr Alan wrote: »

I aint saying he does go missing in big games.

BUT does it really ****ing matter when he does it 4 games out of 5?! he is still world class.

When that 1 game in 5(and its more like 1 in 20), is when ur back is to the wall u need a class player to deliver

He is up there as one of the best in the worl at the moment. He has come on a huge amount since he arrived. If he matures and improves at this rate its scary how good he will become.

Where he needs to improve is in the big games.

Tusky

Nunu wrote: »

No, you didn't:D

bahaha. Egg & my face have a dinner date.

Mr Alan

hamnegg wrote: »

When that 1 game in 5(and its more like 1 in 20), is when ur back is to the wall u need a class player to deliver

He is up there as one of the best in the worl at the moment. He has come on a huge amount since he arrived. If he matures and improves at this rate its scary how good he will become.

Where he needs to improve is in the big games.

but isnt he getting better in them already? his CL goals this year and game at the emirates show that no?

he has been up there as one of the best in the world for the last 2 years, and rightly so.

he's still a gimp though;)

hamnegg

Mr Alan wrote: »

he's still a gimp though;)

Most sensible thing anyone has said here all day!!! including myself!

DSB

I haven't bothered reading the 5 pages of this thread. Because even the idea of it is ridiculous. His name is Cristiano RONALDO. He is clearly a good player. Stop being bitter and get over yourself.

hamnegg

DSB wrote: »

I haven't bothered reading the 5 pages of this thread. Because even the idea of it is ridiculous. His name is Cristiano RONALDO. He is clearly a good player. Stop being bitter and get over yourself.

Its my God given right to be bitter!! I nor any1 else here said he wasn't a good player. Just doesn't turn it on when the chips are down

ironingbored

PHB wrote: »

First off, players such as Gerrard, Van Nist, Henry, all great players, haven't been able to do this feat. Even in such a 'crap' league.

Just on this specific point, I think its a load of crap. There's a reason the FA Cup is being won this year by somebody not of the top 4. The League cup was won by Spurs.
Liverpool are under serious threat by 2 teams for their top 4 spot.
The league winning tally is likely to be significantly lower.
There is lots and lots and lots of class all over the league, players like Berbatov, Young, Areteta all doing fantastic.

People havn't done great in the UEFA cup, I accept that, although I still expect Spurs to go through. Nonetheless, losing to Florentina in Italy, or PSV in Holland is not a bad result. They are doing well enough in the cups.
But Bolton were able to beat Athletico Madrid.

I don't think that the premiership has gotten worse in quality. What I do think is that there are about 4 top teams, 7-9 very good teams, 4-5 of which are of serious quality and can challenge the top 4 in most games, especially at home. and then the rest are crap.

Also, I think the whole idea that the league used to be better is equally crap. First off, I don't think anyone on this board was around when Best was playing for United So I can't imagine anyone actually can remember and compare. Personally, I think since the 1990s that I started watching, the legue has gotten noticably better.

p.s. Domination is such a silly requirement for Ronaldo. A midfield can dominate a game, wingers don't as much. They can produce some great stuff going forward, but they are much more reliant on others to give them the ball. They don't win the ball back, or dictate tempo. Ronaldo will never have a Keane like game vs. Juventus. He might have a great attackers game, and do some magic, but he's never gona do what Keane did, nor will he ever do what Gerrard did, it's not like he's gona revert to RB and defend amazingly like

Ronaldo is a good player not a great player. Last year in Milan he was utterly owned by Gattuso and shown what real football is all about by Kaka' and Seedorf. Same goes for Rooney.

mmmm....wingers who have dominated big games = Pavel Nedved. Had Real Madrid for breakfast in two CL semi finals. Messi is such a better all round player who dominates big games. Luis Figo, how many games has he dominated on his own. Donadoni...

Ronaldo was muck against Lyon, an ok team. Did nothing against a nothing portsmouth side except whinge because they wouldn't let him use his "skill". He should ask Marco Van Basten about that.

kryogen

Jesus stop being so stupid, Ronaldo is a great player, its simple.

why is this stupid argument going on every ****ing week? its been done, if you dont think hes great fair enough, your point has been made, if you do think hes great your point has also been made.

boring

FatherTed

I think scoring in the quarter-finals and semi-finals of the FA Cup & Champions League, as well as finals of the FA Cup & League Cup count as "Big Games".

Dubit10

kryogen wrote: »

Jesus stop being so stupid, Ronaldo is a great player, its simple.

why is this stupid argument going on every ****ing week? its been done, if you dont think hes great fair enough, your point has been made, if you do think hes great your point has also been made.

boring

Because he hasnt turned it on in big games on a consistent basis.When he does people will stop threads like this

Hobart

ironingbored wrote: »

Ronaldo is a good player not a great player. Last year in Milan he was utterly owned by Gattuso and shown what real football is all about by Kaka' and Seedorf. Same goes for Rooney.

mmmm....wingers who have dominated big games = Pavel Nedved. Had Real Madrid for breakfast in two CL semi finals. Messi is such a better all round player who dominates big games. Luis Figo, how many games has he dominated on his own. Donadoni...

Ronaldo was muck against Lyon, an ok team. Did nothing against a nothing portsmouth side except whinge because they wouldn't let him use his "skill". He should ask Marco Van Basten about that.

I actually agree with you there. I think he is a good player, with a lot more potential. He's not at the level of Messi, for example, and yes, Gattuso (a world class player) ran rings around him.

The boy has a lot of talent, but he has some way to go before he should be considered "World Class" , 2 or 3 more seasons like this one, and he can assume the crown, not yet though.