Drivers who cruise under the limit

voxpop

This issue as i see it is that alot of drivers tend to be blinkered. They are only concerned with themselves and dont have any consideration what so ever for other road users.
If you are driving along and someone behind obviously wants to overtake - let them overtake ffs, move in a little, slow a little to give a gap in front (in a line of traffic), whatever. There really seems to be a mindset of "Im driving here and I dont care what anyone thinks, I have a right to be here".
A little bit of courtesy for other road users would allow slower drivers to drive at whatever speed they like while giving faster drivers the opportunity to overtake.

L1011

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Making other people pull over is called 'bullying'. And, let's remember that driving along on the hard shoulder is both dangerous and illegal.

The ROTR is hideously vague on this issue, telling you you can "pull over" but not actually even implying if you need to stop or can keep driving on...

andrewh5

flogen wrote: »

It strikes me that some people in this thread think hitting the speed limit is their right as a driver and anyone stopping them from achieving this should get out of their way no matter what.

If you drive at 80KPH on a dual carriageway with a speed of 100KPH when it is safe to drive at the higher speed whilst taking your test you will be failed (quite rightly) for 'failing to make progress'. If people don't feel safe driving at the recommended maximum when it is clearly safe to do so they should consider whether or not they should be driving IMHO.

prospect

This conversation came up before about 12months ago.

The amount of people who said they wouldn't move over was phenomonal, and their only reason was because they were not obliged too .......

It is perfectly legal to move into the hard shoulder to let someone pass (except motorways). Infact in one section of the old ROTR it encouraged drivers to do this.

And on 90% of the roads I have driven, it is perfectly safe to do so. If it isn't safe on a particular road, then that is fine.

So the legality and safety arguments are invalid. Not allowing a faster vehicle to pass is quite simply an act of ignorance and selfishness.

Fey!

flogen wrote: »

It strikes me that some people in this thread think hitting the speed limit is their right as a driver and anyone stopping them from achieving this should get out of their way no matter what.

And what about those who believe t's their divine right to impede everyone elses progress?

If you are only capable of driving at 50kph on a 100kph stretch of road, then let others pass you out. Staying in the middle of the road and making it dangerous for them to overtake is simply ignorance.

Likewise, it someone in front of you isn't going as fast as you'd like, then don't sit on their bumper.As for the usual "it's a limit, not a target" brigade you spout the same line over and over, as well as the "speed is the cause of most deaths" faction, here are a couple of points.

1) It may be a limit, but many people are capable of driving at the limit, and it is NOT your place to enforce your own perceptions of the law.

2) Speed is a factor in a lot of accidents, but more often than not so are stupidity and ineptitude. However, it wouldn't be PC to target idiots.

If I want to drive 125 miles (200km) on a road with a 100kph limit, then I expect that I should be able to finish my journey in 2 hours. However, if some ignoramous or incompetent driver in front of me is only doing 60kph (which happens on roads all over the country), then my 2 hour journey becomes 3:20 hours instead. And then there will be the line of people behind me that they're slowing up as well.

In summation, both sides are partially right and both sides are partially wrong, but nobody will ever find a solution to the problem because each side has their heads wedged so far up their own backsides that they'll only ever see black, not white or even grey.

--amadeus--

Once you pass your test no-one even looks at the ROTR. And frankly you shouldn't need them in this instance.

The problem is not really one of safety, no matter how others want to paint it. Nor is the issue one of road condition, or the appropriateness of speed limits or even about enforcement or teh visability of the Guards.

There are -as I see it - two related issues here.

First is simple awareness. We have all been stuck behind Auntie Mary on her way to Mass at a steady 25kph or Oul' Paddy as he poottles into town for his messages more times than I can count. You recognize them straight away - death grip on teh wheel, myopic peering over teh dash, glacial reactions and unpredictability. It's not even about age - timid drivers come in all ages and sizes and they simply are not aware of thier surroundings or other roads users. How can they move over for you if they don't even know you are there?

Second - and far more common - is simply courtesy. I am sick of being stuck behind tractors or 4*4's towing trailers and horse boxes on the main arterial routes of this country. They dawdle along at minimum speed, carefully hugging the centre line and with literally dozens of cars strung out behind them. How difficult would it really be for them to move over and let the traffic through? If there are other cars there and they look like they want past why not facilitate that? If there is a climbing lane why not pull into it? If there is space in teh inside lane why not use it? It won't slow you down in your journey and it reduces stress all round - you don't have angry tailgaters and they don't risk killing themselves trying to pass you when it's not safe.

But for some unknown reason some people on the roads think that they are unmarked speed guardians. They think that they have an obligation to determine the safe speed and by God they will make everyone stick to it.

Turbodreams

andrewh5 wrote: »

Automan you have hit the nail on the head! British drivers have it drummed into them that they should stay in the left lanes unless overtaking. Here people seem to think that they can drive in any damn lane they want! Yesterday I was driving south on the M50 from Sandyford to Wicklow. A woman was sat in the outside lane at 100KPH when the inside lane was totally clear and the limit was 120KPH. Perfect road conditions & visibility. There is (and never will be) no excuse for her driving behaviour. She should have been in the left lane. Several drivers had to undertake in order to make progress - illegal and dangerous. What else were they to do? Stay behind her on a perfectly clear motorway because she was too damn selfish to move into the left lane?

This stretch of road i think is one of the worst for people sitting in the overtaking lane. its just beyond me why people seem to feel more comfortable or safer commuting in the overtaking lane whilst the inside lane is clear

And just a tip for people who might have a short temper like myself, there is no point tailgating people on national roads( or any road) because if they are one of the few who actually look in their mirrors, they will most like become more nervous and make a mistake! what i try to do is imagine the slow person infront being your mother/ relation etc. it usually helps me.
you have to remember that unfortunately, driving is not a natural comfortable process for some people.

andrewh5

Turbodreams wrote: »

you have to remember that unfortunately, driving is not a natural comfortable process for some people.

Then IMHO they should not be driving.

Turbodreams

andrewh5 wrote: »

Then IMHO they should not be driving.

i agree 100%. but we all know they do. i was hit by an old lady a few years back. there was damage to all the panels on the drivers side of my car so i called the Guards. after exchanging details etc, the guard said she could go on her way. she then reversed into a pillar and drove into the side of a parked car. needless to say, the guard drove her home!

ballooba

I see the main problem being two things:
1) The lack of safe places to overtake. This is an engineering problem.
2) Lack of discipline in keeping left and overtaking right.

I don't think drivers should have to drive on the hard shoulder. It's unsafe and that is not what it is there for.

astrofool

People who says "It's a limit, not a target", if you go into the test with that attitude, you'll fail for not making progress. You should be driving at the limit, conditions permitting, and if you can't, then you shouldn't be driving (with exceptions for vehicles unable to travel at the limit, e.g. HGV's, or towing a trailer).

faceman

prospect wrote: »

It is perfectly legal to move into the hard shoulder to let someone pass (except motorways). Infact in one section of the old ROTR it encouraged drivers to do this.

Yeah i was going to post that too. Although it has the usual caveat of "as long as its safe to do so" etc

flogen wrote: »

As for people in Ireland not using the right-hand lane on a Motorway as they should; the fact that it's referred to by most people as the fast lane rather than the overtaking lane says it all really.

to make matters worse, im sure the regular m50 users noticed it a few weeks ago when one of the traffic warning signs (southbound i think) asked drivers to use the "fast lane" if not getting off at N7 of ballymount or something.

coolbeans

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Making other people pull over is called 'bullying'. And, let's remember that driving along on the hard shoulder is both dangerous and illegal.

Wrong, wrong and wrong again. The rules of the road state quite clearly that a driver may legally pull onto the hard shoulder to allow faster moving traffic to pass. Look it up. You are of course required to move back ASAP after aforementioned faster traffic has passed as the hard shoulder is not to be treated as a lane in its own right.
I agree that using the hard shoulder can be dangerous at times due to the quality of the roads however there are many, many roads where it's anything but dangerous to pull onto the hard shoulder.
Bullying? You must be easily intimidated. It's unreasonable not to allow others to travel at the legal maximum speed just because you choose not to. I don't tailgate but damn those of you who make a point of travelling under the speed limit and impeding others progress on marble smooth roads where the hard shoulder is as wide as the road itself. Just let them by when it's safe to do so.

OldmanMondeo

I drove from home to work this morning, 40 mile trip, both "R" roads and Motorway. I stuck as near to the speed limit as I could, maybe 5kph over. I did not drive on the hard shoulder and never will, to many people killed in hard shoulders while walking. I was over taken by loads, well in excess of the speed limit. Overtaken on bends, on double white lines, hatched areas, you name it, any where that you should not overtake it happens.

These are the people who should not eb on the road. People driving slowly can be passed safetly and I would rarther meet these on the road than someone in a rush.

jaggiebunnet

coolbeans wrote: »

Wrong, wrong and wrong again. The rules of the road state quite clearly that a driver may legally pull onto the hard shoulder to allow faster moving traffic to pass. Look it up.

Where does it say that?

Does the number of people killed by cars ploughing into the back of their cars while they are parked on the hard shoulder because it is for emergencies and stopping only - not make it obvious that it is dangerous driving? If you can prove that it is legal it still doesn't make it right, common sense tells you it is dangerous.

As a driver who comes from the UK and sat his licence in the UK I think the problem we have over here is that

a. The roads are not good enough.

b. To be honest I had never seen hard shoulders on secondary roads like you see them over here until I came here - this is probably because of the lack of motorways but if they turned them into proper lanes with a real hard shoulder every now and again then it would help and reduce the need for motorways throughout the country.

c. Inconsiderate drivers - whether it is the silly woman who has no idea of what is going on around her or the muppet speeder who thinks he has to be 1 mm away from your bumper - they all need some decent training and proper enforcement of the law.

d. In addition to c are the guys who just don't know how to drive - you are always going to get them unfortunately I think the number appears to be aggravated in this country due to the roads.

flogen

andrewh5 wrote: »

If you drive at 80KPH on a dual carriageway with a speed of 100KPH when it is safe to drive at the higher speed whilst taking your test you will be failed (quite rightly) for 'failing to make progress'.

I find that hard to believe - I'm happy to be corrected but I do.

80KPH is hardly slow or dangerously slow, even if it isn't the fastest possible speed you can travel at.

Fey! wrote: »

And what about those who believe t's their divine right to impede everyone elses progress?

They're idiots too - my blood boils when I see people who purposely try to impede other drivers, even ones that are going over the limit. If I'm at the limit and someone behind me wants to overtake me because I'm not going fast enough I won't stop them - I won't make it any easier for them, though.

If you are only capable of driving at 50kph on a 100kph stretch of road, then let others pass you out. Staying in the middle of the road and making it dangerous for them to overtake is simply ignorance.

Well the figure I'm basing what I say on is 80 on a 100kph stretch; and I agree with you on the second point.

In summation, both sides are partially right and both sides are partially wrong, but nobody will ever find a solution to the problem because each side has their heads wedged so far up their own backsides that they'll only ever see black, not white or even grey.

True - I think the problem is that everyone is just looking out for themselves. The guy driving too slow doesn't give a shít that he's holding people up and the guy who wants to drive fast doesn't give a shít that the guy in front wants to drive at a speed below the maximum, as is his right to do so.

What you end up with is a few slow people impeding those trying to drive at a normal speed and a few speeders trying to bully those trying to drive at a normal speed.

coolbeans

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

Where does it say that?

Does the number of people killed by cars ploughing into the back of their cars while they are parked on the hard shoulder because it is for emergencies and stopping only - not make it obvious that it is dangerous driving? If you can prove that it is legal it still doesn't make it right, common sense tells you it is dangerous.

As a driver who comes from the UK and sat his licence in the UK I think the problem we have over here is that

a. The roads are not good enough.

b. To be honest I had never seen hard shoulders on secondary roads like you see them over here until I came here - this is probably because of the lack of motorways but if they turned them into proper lanes with a real hard shoulder every now and again then it would help and reduce the need for motorways throughout the country.

c. Inconsiderate drivers - whether it is the silly woman who has no idea of what is going on around her or the muppet speeder who thinks he has to be 1 mm away from your bumper - they all need some decent training and proper enforcement of the law.

d. In addition to c are the guys who just don't know how to drive - you are always going to get them unfortunately I think the number appears to be aggravated in this country due to the roads.

I can't be bothered formatting this as I copied it directly from TRotR page 60.:rolleyes:

A single broken
yellow line along
the side of the
road
This road contains a hard shoulder,
which is normally only for
pedestrians and cyclists.
If a driver wants to allow a vehicle
behind them to overtake, they may
pull in to the hard shoulder briefly as
long as no pedestrians or cyclists are
already using it and no junctions or
entrances are nearby.
Different rules exist for hard
shoulders on motorways. See
Section 11 for details.

On single carriageway national roads there are many instances where it is perfectly safe and acceptable to pull onto the hard shoulder. The crucial point is to be AWARE OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS, i.e. don't pull onto the hard shoulder unless you can be perfectly sure that there is nothing or no-one on it in the first place. For example it's not a good idea to use the HS when going around a corner as there could be a vehicle pulled over that'll only become apparent on exiting the bend. I would have thought this obvious.

jaggiebunnet

coolbeans wrote: »

I can't be bothered formatting this as I copied it directly from TRotR page 60.:rolleyes:

and does your common sense tell that it is safe?

B00MSTICK

I travel from Galway to Shannon quite often and thankfully don't see this very often maybe the odd tractor slows things up but he often has nowhere to pull in.

What does get me though is when some person in a hurry is right on your bumper (Im more than likely over the limit) and you have nowhere safe to pull in, they then make a dangerous overtaking maneuver and speed off.
A few mins later you hit the Ennis bypass D.C and safely cruise by him. Whats the point in dangerously overtaking when youre approaching a road where you can go as fast as you like safely? (Really is a lovely road)

coolbeans

jaggiebunnet wrote: »

and does your common sense tell that it is safe?

Yes in certain instances it is perfectly safe. In others it's not as I've outlined. I regularly drive from South Tipperary to Dublin. I come across the situation described quite regularly.
Only pull in onto the HS when you can see what's ahead of you. What's wrong with that?

coolbeans

B00MSTICK wrote: »

I travel from Galway to Shannon quite often and thankfully don't see this very often maybe the odd tractor slows things up but he often has nowhere to pull in.

What does get me though is when some person in a hurry is right on your bumper (Im more than likely over the limit) and you have nowhere safe to pull in, they then make a dangerous overtaking maneuver and speed off.
A few mins later you hit the Ennis bypass D.C and safely cruise by him. Whats the point in dangerously overtaking when youre approaching a road where you can go as fast as you like safely? (Really is a lovely road)

+1:)

--amadeus--

A while back I had to drive regularly from Limerick to Dublin, leaving between 6 and 6:30 to be in Dublin for 9. It was the nicest driving I have ever some in this country. The roads were obviously less crowded before 7 but the best part was that the vast majority of people on teh road at that time of the morning were professional drivers, lorry drivers, reps and the like. The standard of driving was far higher, awareness of other road users was higher, no muppets tailgating, no dodgy overtaking, courtesy and people getting out of each others way so that all could travel at a speed they felt comfortable with.

Then as it ticked towards and past 8am the commuters and school run folk started to appear standards plunged and chaos, self interest and ignorance ruled again.

I'll repeat it - if everyone was aware of thier surroundings and showed a bit of courtesy then the roads would be a safer and nicer place.

Blazer

What I hate is these ppl who say "it's a limit ,not a target".
This includes the head of the NRA who said the same thing on the Matt Cooper show a few weeks ago.
Yet if you do a driving test you will fail if you don't keep to the limit as it shows that firstly you're not aware of the speed limit on that stretch of road and secondly you are holding up traffic behind you and providing an obstruction to other traffic.
There should have been penalty points introduced for this but they chickened out of it. In England you will receive points on your license for obstructing traffic in this manner.

Witcher

milltown wrote: »

Was that 30Mph or Kmph?
If it's Kms then rant away. If it's mph then it's not such a sensational amount below the limit on long stretches of the M50 these days.

My €0.02: While it can be annoying, it should be remembered that the numbers on the signs are Limits, not Targets. Leave a little earlier and don't get so wound up about it and you'll reduce your own risk of having an accident and won't need anyone else to blame.

km, forgot to post it



:cool::cool::cool:

S.I.R

nobodys perfect...

The hardest thing about driving is never knowing what the driver ahead or around is going to do... if they drive slow on the motorway , indicate to overtake... he should then move out of the way and let you by ( traffic providing ) if not... though luck. Not everyone on the road are Good drivers, they could be a bucket a nerves for all i care but still , common sense & common courtesy are 2 things that seem to be rarer then Bertie Ahern paying his tax's

pburns

flogen wrote: »

I find that hard to believe - I'm happy to be corrected but I do.

80KPH is hardly slow or dangerously slow, even if it isn't the fastest possible speed you can travel at.

Well almost 10 years ago when i was doing my test I was told by 2 different instructors to do just under 40 in a particular 30 zone or I would be marked down for failing to make progress!

How about we just introduce a blanket, countrywide 40km/h speed limit (20km/h in built up areas) and be done with it.That way road deaths drop to zero & greenhouses gases magically disappear...:D Fact is cars crash, people die, **** happens. Except in the PC world of today that's simply unacceptable...

Dolph Starbeam

The worst thing about them is not only do they go 80 in a 100 zone but they don't even slow from 80 in a 50 zone, really pi$$es me off....

nicholi

I generally try to drive as close to the speed limit as is possible as long as it is safe to do so. (ie speed limit of 100kph speed limit between Ennis and Lahinch not safe) The "it's a limit, not a target" are technically correct. However as my Dad (who used to put up around 50,000 plus miles per year once pointed out, you just never know why someone is driving so fast and it's not out place to judge them without knowing the full facts (that the guards job), the other thing is that if there is some muppet tailgating you, why not let him off away from you, where his or her driving will no longer be an immediate threat to you or the other passengers in your car. It might seem selfish but to me it makes sense, I don't think I've a death wish on the roads but if someone else does they're not taking me with them. Don't see the point in trying to hold someone up if they are in a hurry, they could have a genuine reason to be in a hurry (eg sick child in hospital etc)

hope this makes sense

andrewh5

MOG7 wrote: »

The worst thing about them is not only do they go 80 in a 100 zone but they don't even slow from 80 in a 50 zone, really pi$$es me off....

It does me too so.

LFCFan

Whatever about driving below the limit on a good road, what really grates on my nerves is the drivers who can't keep a consistant speed. They will be doing 100KMH for a few miles and then suddenly drop to 80KMH for no obvious reason and continue to fluctuate. these drivers on Motorways are the worst. They will be dong 110KMH so you overtake and then suddenly they speed up and overtake you and pull in again in front, only to slow down again further up the road and you have to over take them again. I've had this happen on multiple occassions on the M7. There are the people who are hardly moving on windy roads who feel it neccessary to brake going around slight bends. People who pull out from minor roads onto Primary roads and don't get up to speed quickly or at all, causing all traffic behind them to break suddenly. There are so many inexperienced and bad drivers on our roads. Add to this the amount of poor roads and it's no wonder there's so many people dying!