Drivers who cruise under the limit

D_murph

astraboy wrote: »

OK man. You keep puttering along at 80 in a 100, frustrating those behind you and acting the ignorant maggot refusing to move over when its safe for a few moments. Glad to be sharing the roads with people like you.:rolleyes: Who gives a crap what the out of date act says, its in the ROTR and is plain common sense! Your position(and arrognace) perplexes me to be honest.

didnt take long to prove me correct i see

L1011

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

The only time you may use the hard shoulder is when pulling over and coming to a stop..

Except thats not provided for in any SI either. What there is is the ROTR which makes no specific reference to stopping, but uses the term 'pull over' which is used elsewhere in the book to refer to stopping.

Theres no 'urban myth' here, theres (minor) legal chaos instead.

Steve

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You're making it up. That's not the legal position. It's urban myth.

in hole - still digging.

cyclopath, I don't think any Judge in the country will convict a motorist for following whats in the rules of the road - issued by the road safety authority and claims to be an interpretation of the road traffic act.

If you have an issue with whatever 'technicality' makes a hard shoulder not part of a roadway then take it to the legal forum, people there might be interested.

coolbeans

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You're making it up. That's not the legal position. It's urban myth.

It says no such thing in the Acts nor any statutory instrument.

The only time you may use the hard shoulder is when pulling over and coming to a stop..

As a member of the Garda Traffic Corps you should at least state what is law and what is administrative practice.

But, should anything go wrong, the law is what will be applied. Drivers must remember that.

Please provide a link from the ISB supporting your assertion. I've asked already, read the entire post this time. Thank you.

cyclopath2001

astraboy wrote: »

OK man. You keep puttering along at 80 in a 100, frustrating those behind you and acting the ignorant maggot refusing to move over when its safe for a few moments.

And you can drive like a bully intimidating others? Very nice.

Glad to be sharing the roads with people like you.:rolleyes: Who gives a crap what the out of date act says, its in the ROTR and is plain common sense!

It's not in the RoTR. The RoTR does not say you can drive on the hard shoulder, it says you can 'pull over'. You are seeing what you want to see. If you check the act you will see that there is absolutely no support for your interpretation. But alas, I see you do not respect laws. Merely, self-administered 'common-sense'.

Your position(and arrognace) perplexes me to be honest.

? I am pointing out if people follow 'advice' given here by others and drive on the hard shoulder, they do so at their own legal risk.

What arrogance If anyone is arrogant is is those who want make up their own laws and who try to force law-abiding citizens off the road.

The law does require all drivers to take up a position on the roadway which does not unnecessarily obstruct others overtaking, I observe that law. I also drive at appropriate speeds within the speed limit and try not to get frustrated by others who, for their own reasons, perhaps disability or nervousness choose to drive more slowly.

coolbaeans wrote:

Please provide a link from the ISB supporting your assertion.

Done in previous threads on this subject. The statute book requires that you drive on the roadway. The left hand edge of the roadway is defined by a broken yellow line. The term 'hard shoulder' has no legal meaning.

Why don't you provide a statutory source for your statements?

_Kaiser_

GTC wrote: »

Let me please clear up this godawful mess.

ON SINGLE LANE ROADS
You may use the hard shoulder for short periods of time to let another car pass.

You may not use the hard shoulder for extended periods, such as around a left turning bend (obviously) or accross a junction.

ON DUAL-CARRAIGE-WAYS
You may not use the hard shoulder for any reason other than breakdowns/accidents.

You must drive in the Driving Lane (Left lane) unless you are overtaking at good progress.

You must not use the overtaking (right) lane unless you are overtaking at good pace.

SOMETHING TO NOTE

As a member of the Garda Traffic Corps, I am not loathe to issue summons or fines for failing to yield where an individual remains in the overtaking lane while not making adequate progress.

I hate people who drive under the speed limit and hold up other traffic, and refuse to use the hard shoulder on single lane roads where safe to do so. I would love to see a new penalty points offence for not making adequate progress or similar.

The worst offenders are the selfish ones with the "I'm perfectly entitled to" mentality. It just sreams selfishness and willful ignorance.

We have issued summons and tickets for those who use the overtaking lane on motorways. HGVs are not allowed to use the overtaking lane, period, where the limit is above 65 kph, except in extraordinary circumstances.

And God help you if you don't move over for an emergency PSV, whether single lane or dual-carraigeway. You are not that important or significant.

+1 - Thanks for the "official viewpoint" GTC Just a quick question though if I may.. whats the general view in the Traffic Corps with regards to (briefly) exceeding the posted limit when overtaking? I'm not talking about doing double that limit obviously, but say 10-15 km/h for the duration of the manoeuvre, then dropping back to the limit once completed?

Myself I use the N3 daily and am sick to death of the number of dawdlers cruising along at or below 80 km/h while the queue of traffic builds behind their oblivious (or just plain uncaring) eyes. As already mentioned, many of the same idiots will continue to do their 80 km/h regardless even when the limit drops to 60 or 50.

I don't exceed the limits as a rule, but I do like to make good progress which means that if it's legal, safe and appropriate to drive at the limit then I will do so. On the other hand, I'll also move over briefly to allow someone pass, or slow in congested traffic to allow someone ahead in/out of a junction.
Driving isn't that hard really - as long as you're observant, use some common sense and have a bit of courtesy, you can't go too far wrong. Unfortunately there's far too many people on the roads who don't understand something as simple as "when it's dark/raining/foggy TURN YOUR LIGHTS ON", hence the problems and frustration that ensues.

One more thing for GTC: Do you ever pull people for not lighting up when it makes sense to do so? Or tell them to spend the €12 to replace that blown headlamp bulb? Or that the indicator stalk is there for a reason! I personally find these a lot more annoying (and dangerous) than someone doing maybe 5 km/h over the limit on a dual carriageway. I realise you (as in the Traffic Corps) are told where to set up, but given that we as are supposed to believe that the aim is Road Safety (rather than Revenue and Stats Generation), perhaps it might be worth feeding back some of the very valid comments on these threads to your superiors? Of course, it probably won't help, but as I once heard on Spitting Image - if you repeat something often enough, people will believe it!

coolbeans

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

And you can drive like a bully intimidating others? Very nice.

It's not in the RoTR. The RoTR does not say you can drive on the hard shoulder, it says you can 'pull over'. You are seeing what you want to see. If you check the act you will see that there is absolutely no support for your interpretation. But alas, I see you do not respect laws. Merely, self-administered 'common-sense'.

? I am pointing out if people follow 'advice' given here by others and drive on the hard shoulder, they do so at their own legal risk.

What arrogance If anyone is arrogant is is those who want make up their own laws and who try to force law-abiding citizens off the road.

The law does require all drivers to take up a position on the roadway which does not unnecessarily obstruct others overtaking, I observe that law. I also drive at appropriate speeds within the speed limit and try not to get frustrated by others who, for their own reasons, perhaps disability or nervousness choose to drive more slowly.

Where's the link? You're talking bull**** now and you're providing no evidence to support it.

_Kaiser_

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

It's not in the RoTR. The RoTR does not say you can drive on the hard shoulder, it says you can 'pull over'. You are seeing what you want to see. If you check the act you will see that there is absolutely no support for your interpretation. But alas, I see you do not respect laws. Merely, self-administered 'common-sense'.

This has been done here several times before, and it was generally agreed that you may indeed use the hard shoulder BRIEFLY to allow following traffic to pass - if safe/appropriate to do so!

This was (as already pointed out to you) in fact included in the ROTR (and still is in the current version), AND has been verified (and defined) on this very thread by a member of the Traffic Corps.

What more do you want? TBH you're verging on trolling I think.

astraboy

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

And you can drive like a bully intimidating others? Very nice.

It's not in the RoTR. The RoTR does not say you can drive on the hard shoulder, it says you can 'pull over'. You are seeing what you want to see. If you check the act you will see that there is absolutely no support for your interpretation. But alas, I see you do not respect laws. Merely, self-administered 'common-sense'.

? I am pointing out if people follow 'advice' given here by others and drive on the hard shoulder, they do so at their own legal risk.

What arrogance If anyone is arrogant is is those who want make up their own laws and who try to force law-abiding citizens off the road.

The law does require all drivers to take up a position on the roadway which does not unnecessarily obstruct others overtaking, I observe that law. I also drive at appropriate speeds within the speed limit and try not to get frustrated by others who, for their own reasons, perhaps disability or nervousness choose to drive more slowly.

I never "bully" those on the road. But your arrogance and ignornace astounds me. I am a sensible and experienced driver, I used "self-administered common sense" every time I drive my car, otherwise I would be dead. People need to use judgment when they are driving always. You appear to be a do-gooder bedwetter that is focused on the very letter of the law instead of what happens out on the road for real. Go back to your dream land. And yes, I do admit to occasionally breaking the speed limit where it is artificially too low for the conditions at the time, at least I'm not holding anyone up, I never endanger anyone on the road(cue "but you are breaking the speed limit" hopping mad posts:rolleyes:) and I have taken several advanced driving courses.

BTW, you can "pull over" onto the shoulder without stopping fully. You are the one who is dangerous on the roads, whats worse is the piss poor attempt to defend your position even after a member of the traffic core, the ROTR and many many posters proved you WRONG! Wake up.

As I said, jsut because I don't wish to be held up by your doddering does not make me a bully on the road. If your such a poor driver, that you are completely unaware of my presence a safe distance behind you, while I want to get past, and I need to flash my lights to inform you of my presence, you should not be on the road. You should be in the old-folks home. Drive at what speed you like, just don't have the arrogant attitude that you have the right to hold up others, because you don't.

Of course as a cyclist you can do as you wish on the roads.:rolleyes:

O ya, and post the link to the statute book to back up your position if your so sure? Sound man.

coolbeans

Of course as a cyclist you can do as you wish on the roads.:rolleyes:

O ya, and post the link to the statute book to back up your position if your so sure? Sound man.[/QUOTE]

Agree with everything you said there. Easy on the cyclists though. That's no reason to have a go. I do more cycling than driving myself.

Damien360

Calm down all.

If you wish to drive below the limit, it is your right, but please do it with due consideration to the people who are not just travelling 10 miles down the road to see Auntie Mary. They are in a rush but not all driving like lunatics. Nobody is asking anyone to stay in the hard shoulder and stay there around a bend. Just pull aside, half a car width is loads, and let the traffic past at regular intervals so it does not build up behind you.

It makes safe sense for you. When traffic builds up, irate drivers, (we all hate them but it is human nature), will jump the line and then it becomes dangerous for you and the person on the other side of the road. I do 30000miles a year covering all the country and I cannot count the amount of times I nearly got hit head on by someone getting very frustrated and overtaking on a blind bend or a blind hill. I can only assume it is frustration by the line of cars following one slow moving car. If I get hit, the odds are the slow moving car will also be hit. The Gardai will record it as speeding/dangerous overtaking but that is hardly consolation to you when you are hurt or dead due to the accident. Just a little bit of consideration would be nice.

I read GTC's post about emergency PSV's being blocked. I can testify that people are stupid enough to block an ambulance, lots of people, when my daughter recently had to be rushed by ambulance to Tallaght hospital from newbridge. Cars were actually moving lane to block it's progress all the way up the road, and it had it's siren at full blast on the journey. For those of you who do this, think, it could be your family member in that ambulance or your friends house burning down. Move aside.

cyclopath2001

I am sorry that my respect for the law and for vulnerable and senior members of our society has caused you such anger.

astraboy wrote: »

O ya, and post the link to the statute book to back up your position if your so sure? Sound man.

SI 182/1997
9. Save where otherwise required by these Regulations, a vehicle shall be driven on the left hand side of the roadway in such a manner so as to allow, without danger or inconvenience to traffic or pedestrians, approaching traffic to pass on the right and overtaking traffic to overtake on the right.

SI 181/1997
Edge of Roadway.
28. Traffic sign number RRM 025 shall—
(a) indicate the line of the edge of a roadway, other than a motorway, and
(b) consist of a broken yellow line along the edge of a roadway, consisting of segments not less than 100 millimetres and not more than 150 millimetres wide, approximately 2 metres long and approximately 2 metres apart.

The alleged traffic garda is correct in stating what the administrative practice is but everyone should be aware of when they are placing themselves in legal jeopardy.

coolbeans

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I am sorry that my respect for the law and for vulnerable and senior members of our society has caused you such anger.







The alleged traffic garda is correct in stating what the administrative practice is but everyone should be aware of when they are placing themselves in legal jeopardy.

Legal jeopardy my arse! I'm putting myself in 'legal jeopardy' if I pull over momentarily to let faster traffic go by. Come on...
As I've alluded to already the law is open to interpretation in a court of law but rules are not. There's not a sane judge in the country who'd rule that driving on the hard shoulder is illegal for the purpose of letting faster traffic pass.
Think about it. :eek:

By the way you're quotes from the ISB don't help you're argument at all. Anyway, I'm off cycling. Too many people like you on the road to drive.

cyclopath2001

coolbeans wrote: »

Legal jeopardy my arse! I'm putting myself in 'legal jeopardy' if I pull over momentarily to let faster traffic go by. Come on...

Picture this: You pull and drive along the hard shoulder to let faster traffic past, you wreck one of your nice alloy wheels in a concealed crater. Your insurance company denies liability because you're not insured for 'off-road' and the local council rather correctly points out that you were not driving on the roadway & they have no liability either.

Scenario 2 is scenario (1) plus that you lose control and collide with someone & it comes up in court that you were driving erratically and not keeping to the road.

Your choice.

By the way you're quotes from the ISB don't help you're argument at all.

My argument is only about the legal aspect. Actually, I cycle on the hard shoulder myself so as to avoid intimidation from road bullies.

pburns

'cycleopath' - do you actually drive? A car I mean, not a bicycle or a put-put...

I suspect you do but from your profile it is pretty obvious that you are extremely pro-cyclist and consequently 'perhaps' a little anti-car...

Your position is indefensible and still you nag and nag and nag like an oul wan goin through the menopause. From the sound of it that's about the level of your driving.

You quote the rule of law like a Deep-South bible-bashing preacher but you have not an iota of common sense or humanity. Either that or you are a troll. Scarily I think you're real:eek:...

stepbar

Nobody is asking you to pull over on to the hard shoulder.... but for christ sake pull over to the left enough so I can get by you :rolleyes: If you think I'm staying behind you the whole way to Dublin you can k1ss my ass. If you're not comfortable driving to the limit then perhaps you shouldn't be driving in the first place. As I've said travelling at 50 - 80kph on a road which has a limit of 100kph is absolute stupidity. In fact it's retarded.

D_murph

in fairness if you cant pull over into the hard shoulder for a few seconds to let someone out, there must be something wrong with you.

then again if all you can manage is 80km in a 100, then that would confirm it. that coupled with the fact that while doing this far from death defying speed you still cant either notice that you are holding up everyone else or dont give a toss shows your ignorance and/or ineptitude towards the job at hand.

then again i heard the saying before that ignorance is bliss :rolleyes:

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Actually, I cycle on the hard shoulder myself so as to avoid intimidation from road bullies.

its a wonder indeed :rolleyes:.

how awful for you that everyone else is wrong and you are being bullied like that :rolleyes:.

sounds like someone needs some self confidence classes

Steve

This topic went on for 11 days last time. same arguements, same posters, same posts - what's the point.
@ astraboy & cyclopath, you know you'll never find common ground here, give up and agree to disagree.

cyclopath, you were asked to provide an example of someone being convicted for the commonplace and heinous crime of driving partially in the hard shoulder to allow someone pass, despite your vast legal knowledge - you couldn't.
GTC posted on more than one occasion with the traffic corps view on the matter which you also ignored.

In case anyone missed it, all points already raised in this thread and all points yet to be be raised are here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055131641

Can a mod please lock this now for the sake of sanity.

cyclopath2001

pburns wrote: »

'cycleopath' - do you actually drive? A car I mean, not a bicycle or a put-put...

Yes. Got the test first time. Years of cycling experience helped. When driving, I try to fit in with the normal flow.

stevec wrote:

cyclopath, you were asked to provide an example of someone being convicted for the commonplace and heinous crime of driving partially in the hard shoulder to allow someone pass, despite your vast legal knowledge - you couldn't.

Correct, but I never said it was a crime heinous or otherwise. I just said is was illegal.

Do you agree or disagree that the law is that drivers must drive on the roadway and that a broken yellow line indicates the left hand edge of the roadway?

GTC posted on more than one occasion with the traffic corps view on the matter which you also ignored.

Not correct, I acknowledged his statement of the administrative position.

I agree with those here who say that drivers should stay to the left of the roadway in such a manner so as to allow, without danger or inconvenience to traffic or pedestrians, approaching traffic to pass on the right and overtaking traffic to overtake on the right.

Grinderman

Oh, some very interesting replies from some people. Let me ad mine.
I don't have a problem with anyone going at half speed as long as they are not tailing someone, you should be able to pass in the next few minutes. I have a major problem with tailing.

I dont agree with using the hard shoulder, it is illegal, dangerous and you are not insured to drive on the hard shoulder.

Another problem i have is with a combination of peoples attitude, driving style and vehicle type. If i am driving at 80-100 in a 100 zone and mr asshole speeds up behind me, i will do everything in my power to piss them off (staying within the law). If the person gets extremely close, i have been known to use my finger. If the driver starts "the i am more important than you attitude" i will drive slow around bends.

Another thing i do is never let out people who drive 4x4's in the city or who are pushy about being let into trafic

On the road I AM IN THE FLOW OF TRAFFIC, so BE NICE and people like me will be nice back.

Cionád

Grinderman wrote: »

Oh, some very interesting replies from some people. Let me ad mine.
I don't have a problem with anyone going at half speed as long as they are not tailing someone, you should be able to pass in the next few minutes. I have a major problem with tailing.

I dont agree with using the hard shoulder, it is illegal, dangerous and you are not insured to drive on the hard shoulder.

Another problem i have is with a combination of peoples attitude, driving style and vehicle type. If i am driving at 80-100 in a 100 zone and mr asshole speeds up behind me, i will do everything in my power to piss them off (staying within the law). If the person gets extremely close, i have been known to use my finger. If the driver starts "the i am more important than you attitude" i will drive slow around bends.

Another thing i do is never let out people who drive 4x4's in the city or who are pushy about being let into trafic

On the road I AM IN THE FLOW OF TRAFFIC, so BE NICE and people like me will be nice back.

I am actually in shock reading this. I'm not a fan of 4x4's but your attitude is aggressive and extremely dangerous.

This topic has run it's course, there's no arguing with these people.

Steve

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Do you agree or disagree that the law is that drivers must drive on the roadway and that a broken yellow line indicates the left hand edge of the roadway?

With all due respect, I don't disagree with what you are saying is indeed written in the relevant SI's and RTA.

This does not necessarily mean it's the law. I'm not saying that I'm a legal expert, however my other half is practicing law for 8 years now and would argue that in this country, 90% of the law is based on precedent and until this particular SI is brought before the courts and the meaning within the context of an incident where someone momentarily drove a vehicle on the hard shoulder in order to let someone else pass is decided by a judge, then it is not actually "the law".

Again, if someone were to be convicted using this particular SI then yes, I and everyone else would then take it into consideration in everyday driving.

I have more than a passing interest in things legal and I once thought as you do that if its written down then it's law. The reality of it in this country is that it's what the Judge decides 'on the day'.

That is why I suggested earlier that you discuss this in the legal forum, then you might understand.

Seth Brundle

stevec wrote: »

Can a mod please lock this now for the sake of sanity.

Yes please!

Oh and Grinderman's banned for their offensive contribution!