Downloading case in the High Court

Jonathan

From rte.ie

Downloading case in the High Court


Four record companies have brought a High Court action to compel Eircom - the State's largest broadband service provider - to prevent its networks being used for the illegal downloading of music.
It's the first case to be aimed at the service provider rather than at individual illegal downloaders.
The four record companies taking the action are EMI, Sony BMG, Universal Music and Warner Music.
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Willie Kavanagh, Managing Director of EMI Ireland and Chairman of the Irish Recorded Music Association, said because of illegal downloading and other factors, the Irish music industry was experiencing a "dramatic and accelerating decline" in income.
He said sales in the Irish market dropped 30% in the six years up to 2007.
EMI and the other companies are challenging Eircom's refusal to use filtering technology or other measures to voluntarily block or filter illegally downloaded material.
Last October Eircom told the companies it was not in a position to use the filtering software.
Eircom also told the companies that it was not on notice of specific illegal activity which infringed the companies' rights and it had no legal obligation to monitor traffic on its network.

Irishdudedave

I was listening to something recently (Cant remeber what) and they were discussing this new approach of attacking the ISPs for illegeal downloading. They compared the situation to a shoplifter taking a bus to a music store, stealing an album, then taking the bus home again.
By the record companies new logic they could take the bus company to court to compel them not to provide transport to the shoplifter...which obviously wouldn't be held by a court! So why should this apply to eircom or any other ISP?

paulm17781

Fair play to Eircom for saying no. I wonder what the "other factors" could be. Perhaps people buying music online for cheaper? I also notice it is once again a group of record labels and not musicians... You know who downloading really hurts.

PogMoThoin

Even some artists are moving along a different road to the record companies. I've posted here before that

Radiohead have reported that they (the artists) made more money from their latest album, than they have on all their other albums put together, which they offered for download on their website & let the downloader name their price.

Now Nine Inch Nails have followed a similar path and uploaded the first part of their album to torrent sites, offering the second part at a cost of $5............and have reported to be happy with the money they are earning. more info here.

Seems like everyone's had enough of the record companies. Fair play to Eircom for standing their ground.

smellslikeshoes

Irishdudedave wrote: »

I was listening to something recently (Cant remeber what) and they were discussing this new approach of attacking the ISPs for illegeal downloading. They compared the situation to a shoplifter taking a bus to a music store, stealing an album, then taking the bus home again.
By the record companies new logic they could take the bus company to court to compel them not to provide transport to the shoplifter...which obviously wouldn't be held by a court! So why should this apply to eircom or any other ISP?

Theres a flaw in that logic though the shoplifter could simply walk to the shop if he wanted to, while the downloader must use an ISP to get online to download Illegal stuff. This will end up happening in some shape or form in my opinion, But
IMO is far too late to stop the decline in sales of hard copies of albums. If plans to stop downloading happens in a serious way worldwide there will be ways around it.

messinkiapina

Do other Irish ISPs like Esat, UTV and Smart monitor downloading traffic? Is this the beginning of a major crackdown on individual downloaders in Ireland?

jimmycrackcorm

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

Theres a flaw in that logic though the shoplifter could simply walk to the shop if he wanted to, while the downloader must use an ISP to get online to download Illegal stuff. This will end up happening in some shape or form in my opinion, But
IMO is far too late to stop the decline in sales of hard copies of albums. If plans to stop downloading happens in a serious way worldwide there will be ways around it.

Then you might argue that the council shoul block the roads to stop people from getting to the shop. The comparison is valid.

Gu3rr1lla

Maybe if the music was worth buying these days. Like, for a example, a friend of mine illegally downloaded Arcade Fire's album, he liked their music so much he went out and purchased their albums. If he had never downloaded their albums he would never hear them and wouldn't of purchased their albums. So there's positives to it too

smellslikeshoes

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Then you might argue that the council shoul block the roads to stop people from getting to the shop. The comparison is valid.

No sorry that doesn't make any more valid, I understand where you are coming from but the different costs involved between two things like that straight away makes the comparison not valid. Even if the original comparison was valid you could also argue that naturally the bus driver would comply with the authorities to help track down the suspect through identification.

Silly comparisons aside this is going to happen at some stage in some shape or form, there is too many people employed in the Music industry, Movie industry, Game industry and software industry for it not to happen.

Scram

Was just gonna post about this news story yikes didnt think this kinda think da think would happen here. I try to not download music i buy from itunes the odd time.

i cant see how records companies expect an ISP to do this? Has this happened in the UK and the states?

Boggles

I'd like to see the music industry tackle the real problem of a decline in music sales. Lack of any decent music!!

Oh dear

http://www.rte.ie/2fm/charts/albums.html

The defence rests!

Scram

Boggles wrote: »

I'd like to see the music industry tackle the real problem of a decline in music sales. Lack of any decent music!!

Aye just 10 years ago there was a great period of music the "Brit pop" years Oasis, Blur,Supergrass,Ocean Color Scene etc nowadays theres a few good bands here and there but nothing that "Special". I cant even think of any album i would even bother to download atm well maybe one or two but id rather pay for it tbh if its good.

Marlow

Well,

in Denmark, IFPI (International Federation of the Phonographic Industry) had got a court injunction to force Tele2's danish branch to block access to the IP's of Pirate Bay.

Once they announced, that they are fighting the court case, most of the other ISPs actually joined in there: http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/02/13/Danish-ISP-prepares-to-fight-Pirate-Bay-injunction_1.html

Ironic part is, that after Tele2 blocked Pirate Bay, traffic from Denmark towards Pirate Bay shot up by 12% due to Media Coverage

/Marlow

Scram

Boggles wrote: »

I'd like to see the music industry tackle the real problem of a decline in music sales. Lack of any decent music!!

Oh dear

http://www.rte.ie/2fm/charts/albums.html

The defence rests!

lol true only album id even consider would be
Alive 2008
Daft Punk

The rest are pure ****e.

Boggles

Scram wrote: »

lol true only album id even consider would be
Alive 2008
Daft Punk

The rest are pure ****e.

Indeed, I count 9 greatest hits aswell.

The music industry would never just flog old ****e that was out years ago and is equally crap now, would they?

- What do you mean those downloading freeloaders won't buy the same music twice from us???

Surely they would never try and profit from someones death, Mr. Dolan?

Gu3rr1lla

Scram wrote: »

lol true only album id even consider would be
Alive 2008
Daft Punk

Any good? Is it worth downloading? :rolleyes:

kin9pin

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Then you might argue that the council shoul block the roads to stop people from getting to the shop. The comparison is valid.

....or maybe they should pursue the guy that sold the person the shoes that were used to walk to the shop......I say go for the parents for teaching the damn kids to walk in the first place.

bigpaddy2004

At the end of the day the guy who walks into the shop and lifts items is a thief the same as peer 2 peer's knowingly download copyrighted music and pay nothing. Its all theft I believe Eircom could of made a better move twoards this an be an example for every other ISP out there.

thefinalstage

bigpaddy2004 wrote: »

At the end of the day the guy who walks into the shop and lifts items is a thief the same as peer 2 peer's knowingly download copyrighted music and pay nothing. Its all theft I believe Eircom could of made a better move twoards this an be an example for every other ISP out there.

Not theft as theft implies that the original owner no longer has use of the item in question.

bigpaddy2004

thelastangryman wrote: »

Not theft as theft implies that the original owner no longer has use of the item in question.

Nonsense.

I come accross circumstances everyday where I find people downloading music, films, etc not even released over here or in the cinemas as of yet.

If you go into a record store pick up "2008 best singles" or what ever latest album is out now then proceed to walk out the door without paying for it, thats theft.

Downloading the same album from these file sharing clients is practically the very same, you dont pay for your new album?

Im sure there is lots of people who will try to make this situation seem different in their own favour.

Everyone is complaining about the lack of music out there these days, and why should'nt there be? They are looseing millions every year due to p2p, millions which is not going back into the music industry to strengthen it.

Boggles

bigpaddy2004 wrote: »

Everyone is complaining about the lack of music out there these days, and why should'nt there be? They are looseing millions every year due to p2p, millions which is not going back into the music industry to strengthen it.

That old chest nut. We don't have money to reinvest in the talent. What cliched crap. The music industry is money driven, they will not invest in anything unless they get a return, they have created a market where they will pluck some 18 year old from obscurity, force her to release an album of covers while making a fortune from the 12 year olds who buy this crap who woundn't know talent if it kicked them in the Ipod. The 18 year old has a number one selling album, her eagerly awaited 2nd album is her own material, it sells 3 records and the label drops her like a ginger step child. She then spends the next 10 years appearing in show's like "I was kinda famous once, throw stones at me", etc.

Does this sound familair to you?

messinkiapina

Ok, I agree that downloading music is theft, but you will have a hard time convincing 99.9% of the population that a crime that primarily affects the fat cat records bosses is a serious offence. It's no different to copying an album onto a blank cassette back in the day, and anyone who says they never did that is a bare faced liar.

So do you equate everytime you copied something to your blank cassette back in 1988 to sticking a CD under your jumper in the local record store? Get real, the whole country would be under lock and key.

mjsmyth

I love the way record companies blame illegal downloading for drops in their revenue....

It could have absolutley nothing to do with the ****e they release on a weekly basis and the fact that people cannot truly be arsed buying it.

It could also have absolutley nothing to do with the fact there are many more options for buying music more cheaply over the internet than going to your local Golden Discs, HMV or Zavvi (Virgin). I can't remember the last time I bought myself a CD in a store. I use CDWow practically all the time. I am sure I am not the only one.

Anyway... what would i know!

mj

DJ_Spider

Think yourselves lucky you're not in the UK. This has been worrying DJ's since it came out in June 2005. http://www.pcdj.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=13 Luckyly in Ireland we have a more simpler/cheaper system where the venue has to have the licence. But I'm sure soon IMRO will follow the UK and so DJ's will have to raise thier prices.

GhostInTheRuins

rte wrote:

the Irish music industry was experiencing a "dramatic and accelerating decline" in income.
He said sales in the Irish market dropped 30% in the six years up to 2007.

First of all - lol at "Irish music industry".

In my opinion people that buy cds are still going to buy them anyway. The majority of people that download music wouldn't have bought the stuff they download if they didn't have the option of downloading. IMO the vast majority of their loss of income is because people are wising up to the extremely overblown cd prices in this country. Why the hell would I pay €20+ for an album in hmv/golden discs/Sound Cellar/virgin etc when I can get the exact same thing for €7 or €8 delivered directly to my door?

mjsmyth

According to the Digital Rights Ireland website, CDWow say they have over 120000 registered Irish users........ and that was back in late 2005.

http://www.digitalrights.ie/2005/11/16/irmas-legal-action/

mj

radiospan

bigpaddy2004 wrote: »

If you go into a record store pick up "2008 best singles" or what ever latest album is out now then proceed to walk out the door without paying for it, thats theft.

Downloading the same album from these file sharing clients is practically the very same, you dont pay for your new album?

Downloading isn't the same as theft. If you steal a CD from a shop, the shop no longer has it, it's not able to sell that CD + plastic case on to someone else, and it would have if it hadn't been stolen.

If I pick a random song to download, say one I've never heard of, is that theft?

JC 2K3

Emm, how the hell can Eircom block illegal downloading? They can't block P2P traffic, as P2P isn't illegal...

jor el

bigpaddy2004 wrote: »

Downloading the same album from these file sharing clients is practically the very same, you dont pay for your new album?

Stealing from a shop results in an actual loss for the shop. Downloading results in a possible loss of a potential sale, vastly different things. The music industry quotes their losses based on the number of songs they estimate are circulating freely, and saying that everyone who downloads the song would have paid for it, therefore they have lost all that money. However some people will just never pay for certain things, so if it's not available for free, they do without. Others will even go and purchase after they have illegally downloaded, try before you buy style. I've done this many times as it save me wasting money on crap, and I've bought more music since P2P has become available than I ever did before. I'm sure I'm not the only one either.

I'd love to know what portion of the 30% drop in sales was picked up by the likes of CDWow, Play.com, Amazon, eBay and all the other sites where you can pick up CDs, legally, for half the price you pay in Ireland? Conveniently forgetting the actual facts are lies well versed by the likes of IRMA, IMRO, etc.

It would also be interesting to know what kind of filtering software the record companies are talking about. Does this actively monitor the contents of everything you download (serious privacy concern) or does it just blanket block certain traffic?

I hope nothing will come of this, as it's really just another attempt by the aging giants to protect their cozy little cartel now that they've realised their days are numbered. Artists don't need the record companies any more. All you need now is the talent (seriously lacking in a lot of what's in the charts) an Internet connection and MySpace. That gets you known, it gets you played, you don't need the record companies to run PR or get you on the radio any more.

niall mc

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Emm, how the hell can Eircom block illegal downloading? They can't block P2P traffic, as P2P isn't illegal...

Thats what I was thinking, P2P is used for lots of legal downloads as well.
Linux distributions are most commonly downloaded using torrents.

Also, I cant see Eircom spending money on new ways of blocking the pirates.
The download methods will always be ahead of the anti-piracy measures.
Will they block access to Google, rapidshare, torrents, IRC and any new methods that surface?
It will just cost too much, if its even possible...
The only way to stop it is to go after the people who upload, not downloaders, which they have been trying to do.

bigpaddy2004

plazzTT wrote: »

Downloading isn't the same as theft. If you steal a CD from a shop, the shop no longer has it, it's not able to sell that CD + plastic case on to someone else, and it would have if it hadn't been stolen.

If I pick a random song to download, say one I've never heard of, is that theft?

Is it not true that if you download an album from a file sharing client, you will not be paying the music industry for that album? Is that not stealing? As for what I can make out they will be looseing out on the sale of that record.