Omg!!!

trackmixstudio

http://www.celemony.com/cms/index.php?id=dna
I will say no more. Just watch this and be amazed.

judas101

i can see that being an industry standard in a few years.

sei046

I was waiting for melodyne to be able for this. Was only a matter of a time. This is an absolutely invaluable piece of equipment. Its mine. I will pretty much pay anything!

cornbb

Very, very cool... it looks like a huge coup for Melodyne. AFAIK this sort of thing has been one of the holy grail-type projects of audio DSP for a while. I'd love to play around with this. I wonder how accurate the pitch/polyphony detection is and what sort of technology they used. I'm also wondering how consistent the sound quality is - while the output product does sound great I'm betting individually extracted notes would sound awful. Its got to be impossible for an algorithm to pick out every harmonic associated with each individual note. Quite a lot of harmonics would be created through a combination of notes anyway so I'm wondering how those are handled.

trackmixstudio

The only thing throwing me is this. They must be using some sort of band pass technology to separate the notes within the chord, but the low notes will have upper harmonics which will be shifted with the higher notes. With any demo like this I always think they are using the examples that work and not the MANY that sounded sh1t.
If it does work as advertised then it will be a great innovation that we will all need to have. Antares must be watching this and crying. I think Celemony have made a mistake showcasing this now for an Autumn release. A bit gossipy I think due to the Frankfurt show (first time in 9 years I'm not going thank God!!). They should be more like Apple and just release it, then brag about it. They are basically giving their competitors (antares) a 6 month warning to start work on their own version. You can bet your @ss Antares will have their own version of this by the time celemony release it.

sei046

I was a little confused about the very early warning alright. Seems a little strange. And yes i am pretty sure it wont work as well as advertised. But if it goes anywhere near its claims, It could save hundreds of "The Takes"

cornbb

I'm sure they'll be able to patent whatever trickery they've come up with. There must be a certain amount of smoke and mirrors involved though... They talk like they're going to challenge MIDI in a big way - this might chip away a little at one of MIDI's big advantages (the ability to rearrange stuff without re-recording) but not in a huge way I imagine...

JC 2K3

Class!

trackmixstudio

The main way I could see myself using this would be to intonate guitar chords rather than change majors to minors or other such nonsense. If it has the "snap auto correct" that normal melodyne has which I am sure it will, you could perfectly intonate a whole guitar track with one click.
In doing so there would be MANY tiny (or large for those c*nts who bend the strings slightly when playing power chords) shifts which it looks like the technology could handle with ease, judging by the demo video.
This will be a huge benefit when layering guitar tracks. At the moment I get the guitarist to tune up with my Korg rack tuner every time I hit stop.
I remember reading that on hysteria, Def Leppard tuned the guitars perfectly for each chord and dropped in on them one by one. This plugin would have saved them an inconceivable amount of time!.
Guitars are never perfectly in tune in all keys and this is a big part of the character of a guitar so maybe I won't do this. Will have to wait and see. I have a feeling that most of next years (and on) rock records will be full of big powerchords that sound like keyboards.

jtsuited

jaysus!!!. love that inventor guy - 'i knew it was theoretically impossible, but i did it anyway'. what a man!!

Seziertisch

As for the using it to intonate guitar chords, I feel your pain. I recently invested in a Peterson Strobostomp tuner; my main reason for doing this was my Boss tuner wasn't accurate enough to intonate a guitar properly.

Most guitarists I know aren't even aware of the need to intonate a guitar occasionally, let alone that it is an absolute prerequisite to avoid much weeping and gnashing of teeth in a recording situation.

In a recent Tape Op article on the lies that producers most commonly encounter "All our guitars have been set up and intonated" featured.

Guitars, like all stringed instruments, are by their very nature never going to be fully in tune, but at least trying to get the instrument in tune with itself is a start.

But yeah, investing in a decent tuner has been one of the best things I've done to improve the standards of my recording/playing. A little off the point in this tread, but a more immediate cure for those tuning blues.

Seziertisch

Re:Tuning http://www.endino.com/archive/tuningnightmares.html

teamdresch

Great.
Another excuse for people not to play their parts well.

Niall - Dahlia

Very impressive, but where will this end? God help us if every musician gets a whiff of this and tells you to "fix it with Melodyne" after every badly played take. Oh wait, every bad take? We only need one bad take now! :rolleyes:

I think this will be great for fixing parts of an otherwise perfect take. You capture a take that has energy and magic, but maybe the player slipped up with his fingering for one chord. Great, it'd save the day. But I can see this being abused and being way over-used. It's great from a technological point of view, and somebody was going to do it eventually, but from a creative point of view...sure why have a song finished before going to the studio? Can't settle on that final chord progression? Who cares, we can change it a thousand times after tracking until we get it perfect. Ugh...sounds horrible to me.

But yeah, I agree, strange how they couldn't keep it in their pants until release, maybe the details were already about to be leaked.

Savman

Why bother even learning instruments anymore? Some of us like the bum notes, they lead you down different paths you would not have went otherwise.

Jimi Hendrix would be spinning in his grave :mad:

Niall - Dahlia

Yeah, can you imagine Hendrix recording Are You Experienced in a modern studio in 2008?!

Every note in his solos would be edited perfectly in time and perfectly tuned...that wicked vibrato? No way, it goes out of tune! His feedback and wammy divebombs would be tuned to be in key with the song...that classic guitar tone? Nah, it needs to go through an amp modeler! His vocals would be tuned to "perfection"...every drum hit would be quantised to grid and each drum sound replaced and layered with samples...bass would be pocketed to kick to within 0.1ms...the whole mix would be crushed to 0dB with limiters...

All this technology can save a bad performance, but it can also ruin a great one.

studiorat

I still can't get the ordinary one to work.

sei046

This is another good example of one of the things i hate. People cannot accept something and trust themselves with it. Everyone gets all hot bothered over products like this because it takes over the playing and stunts the creative side etc. THEN DONT LET IT! I think these people have low confidence in themselves so they feel if they have it they have to use it in all the bad ways. Same with having someone like a dealer around you. You can take what there is to be taken out of them and use it to your advantage... OR Why not just bitch about how uncomfortable it makes you feel and about how you cant make up your own mind.

I can see a lot of people getting like this over the melodyne thing. WE DONT WANT TO GO FORWARD!?!?!??! IF WE CAN DO IT WE WILL HAVE TO!?!?! I CANT NOT!!!! Or are they worried about the weaker engineers using this stuff in a bad way? If so spend more time on your own work and less on other peoples

PaulBrewer

sei046 wrote: »

This is another good example of one of the things i hate. People cannot accept something and trust themselves with it. Everyone gets all hot bothered over products like this because it takes over the playing and stunts the creative side etc. THEN DONT LET IT! I think these people have low confidence in themselves so they feel if they have it they have to use it in all the bad ways. Same with having someone like a dealer around you. You can take what there is to be taken out of them and use it to your advantage... OR Why not just bitch about how uncomfortable it makes you feel and about how you cant make up your own mind.

I can see a lot of people getting like this over the melodyne thing. WE DONT WANT TO GO FORWARD!?!?!??! IF WE CAN DO IT WE WILL HAVE TO!?!?! I CANT NOT!!!! Or are they worried about the weaker engineers using this stuff in a bad way? If so spend more time on your own work and less on other peoples

Cup of green tea Dave?

I see your point though, like the people who hate Mobile phones..... If you've ever tried to call me you'll know what I mean.... Ignore 'em!!

sei046

I am for anything forward looking. A lot of my favourite albums are very modern. I love the Production on radioheads stuff and S&M Metallica was produced unbelievably. and guess what! Modern Equipment! Stuff we couldnt do back then. That isnt to say that I dont adore Dark Side of The Moon. But we really need to look forward technoligy wise and embrace any new products which add something to our arsenal(?). I welcome this melodyne innovation and look forward to all the possibilitys in both correctin and creativity.

I know i can offer more to bands on a budget if i have this. They dont have the time in the studio to be getting their vibrato perfect or intonation perfect on every string but if its what they want then i would be delighted to be able to offer that much quicker than they can

Savman

sei046 wrote: »

I think these people have low confidence in themselves so they feel if they have it they have to use it in all the bad ways

What exactly are you insinuating, that I have low confidence in myself? Anything else you'd care to diagnose me with? :rolleyes:

It's all very well having the latest bells and whistles and I'm all for forward movement, that doesn't mean I want live music and real musicians to die off altogether or get buried into some over produced track. The next step will just be guitar machines. We already see how the widespread availability of the Drum Machine and Live Backing Tracks has generally been very bad news for all but the very best Acoustic Kit Drummers. No matter how many advances they make in that field, I'll always prefer the sound of a live kit over ****ty sounding samples. It's not the technology I've a problem with, it's the application.

sei046

No Sav you know what I mean. What i am saying is the technology is in our hands. So whats the problem with having something if you have no intentions of letting it replace musicians? I dont think ANYONE here prefers midi sounds over the real thing. I think you went to far to say ****ty sounding samples considering some of the drum sounds out there on these records sound amazing and its BFD or something.

I just cannot get my head around people getting so worked up over technology if they dont intend to use it badly. Do you not see what I am saying Savman? I cant understand why people associate new innovations with the death of old ones. Has anyone here let Antares replace making a singer sing until we are happy?

I just laugh that people have SUCH high opinions of themselves that they go on about only wanting to use real this and real that and only this mic and only the best singers. If they are that good they prob wouldnt be on boards, they would be out working with the worlds best. And I REALLY am not talking about people on here BTW so dont think i am getting at you. Im just saying we dont live in an ideal world and if people keep demanding 100% budget, talent, equipment and studios they are going to get nowhere. Or they can accept whats going do their best and let whats out at the min try and do something with the stuff that isnt the way you want it. That or just scrap the whole album, or even leave in a clearly bad sounding take out of principal

PaulBrewer

sei046 wrote: »

Im just saying we dont live in an ideal world and if people keep demanding 100% budget, talent, equipment and studios they are going to get nowhere. Or they can accept whats going do their best and let whats out at the min try and do something with the stuff that isnt the way you want it. That or just scrap the whole album, or even leave in a clearly bad sounding take out of principal

Green Tea, Sav?

Good Point, and even more so in the Last 10 years.
Never the Less while budgets change, the Laws of Physics won't!!

Have a look at at my 'Bit of Fun ' post and download the tracks. Some sound good, the strings in my opinion and some gank, the Vocal for instance. However when it's all mixed up the track sound good! Application is all.

PaulBrewer

Savman wrote: »

What exactly are you insinuating, that I have low confidence in myself? Anything else you'd care to diagnose me with? :rolleyes:

It's all very well having the latest bells and whistles and I'm all for forward movement, that doesn't mean I want live music and real musicians to die off altogether or get buried into some over produced track. The next step will just be guitar machines. We already see how the widespread availability of the Drum Machine and Live Backing Tracks has generally been very bad news for all but the very best Acoustic Kit Drummers. No matter how many advances they make in that field, I'll always prefer the sound of a live kit over ****ty sounding samples. It's not the technology I've a problem with, it's the application.

There is a guitar machine! What was it called? made by the same lads who did Groove Agent ..... Amusing for a week it was!

sei046

Yup! anyway Melodyne.................I Loik it... I loik it a loh! As the lads were saying it will be interesting to see how well it works in the real world. I could never get the original to do exactly what i wanted. to be fair it is very good and i have got some good stuff out of it. I remember guys telling me before about the polyphonic melodyne and i was tryin to explain you could shift polyphony but all together, not seperate pitches and they were like "NO! Seriously" But now its out.

cornbb

Ok... this is pure speculation but this is how I'm guessing how this technology works... I'm not sure if standard (monophonic) Melodyne algorithms even use FFT techniques.

The user has the ability to set the "sensitivity" of the algorithm... lets say s/he is asked to enter the approx. no of notes in the chord. Also possible the user is asked what instrument is being played, this gives the algorithm a better chance of figuring which harmonic belongs with which note as many basic instrument types have well-defined harmonic series.

The chord is passed through a high resolution fast fourier transform, (which uses a huge array of bandpass filters as trackmixstudio suggested) thus breaking it up into a large number of pitch/amplitude pairs of data. If the user has stated that there are 3 notes in the chord then the 3 highest "peaks" in the FFT data are specified as the root pitches of the notes. If the chord type - eg diminished 7th - is specified by the user then the chances of the algorithm getting this right are increased greatly, as it will be able to verify the ratio of the differences in pitch (link).

The algorithm uses the instrument information supplied by the user to guesstimate which harmonic belongs with each root pitch. The root/harmonic FFT information for each note is then separated accordingly and may be pitch shifted, time stretched or otherwise manipulated independantly, and resynthesised with inverse FFTs.

Niall - Dahlia

Sei I also welcome the new technology, I don't think anybody would rather it didn't exist, and to top it all off the creator has an awesome beard.

But who's getting worked up over technology they don't intend to use badly? Yes the technology is in my hands, your hands...we know we could trust ourselves to use it tastefully...but unfortunately it's also in the hands of producers who are going to "abuse" it and insist on its use on every track, just like Autotune has been overused and replied upon, sucking the life out of performances. Of course it's subjective whether it'll be a good or bad thing.

Anyway, I think we all agree it's a huge innovation and will potentially have a massive impact on how we work. Funny thing, I just showed my girlfriend the video; complete apathy, not impressed! And it made me think of all them singers who come to the studio with backing tracks who want you to "remove that backing vocal" on a stereo track and are disappointed (and think you can't do your job) when you explain to them the limitations. Your average Joe and below average musician think this kind of thing is already possible. Anyway, interesting times comes Autumn.

Paligulus

This should be pretty exciting for guitar players. Being able to convert guitar chord parts into Midi and use with your favourite Fender rhodes, organ.. VST is pretty usefull.
That's what really stood out for me.

sei046

But to be honest i dont really care too much how producers use it. They are are not makng my or my clients music. and there is a LOT of space out there for cds so they arent really doing any harm. They will not thrive unless people like that sound and if they do? great there is a market!

judas101

i wonder does the program work as well for distorted guitar parts as opposed to clean guitar as used in all the examples there.

does any techno-geek have an opinion? i imagine it'd be more difficult to distunguish between notes.

thoughts?

cornbb

judas101 wrote: »

i wonder does the program work as well for distorted guitar parts as opposed to clean guitar as used in all the examples there.

does any techno-geek have an opinion? i imagine it'd be more difficult to distunguish between notes.

thoughts?

Every instrument has a different set of characteristic harmonics/overtones, which play a large part in determining the timbre of the instrument. Distorted guitar is richer in such harmonics than clean guitar. As the software would probably perform better the fewer the harmonics it has to identify/change, then I'm guessing it might not work so well for distorted guitar. It might get the pitch/time-shifting right but it would be more likely to screw up the timbre. It would probably have variable success across a varied range of instruments. This is all pure speculation though.