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Dutch Anti-Islamic Film To Air March 28th
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I am not a huge fan of Wilders, i was a fan of Fortuyn though. The only thing i admire Wilders for is that he is about the only one who tries to protect the values of Dutch society.
He pays a pretty high price for that as he has to be protected 24/7 against people who can't deal with criticism too well.
About the Koran he said: Half of what is written in there is as bad as what is written in Mein Kampf. We ban Mein Kampf in Holland, you can own Mein Kampf but it is forbidden to print it. Something that isnt printed you can not own.
While death threats against Wilders are abhorrent. It still doesn't change what he represents.
He is still a huge hypocrite I am afraid. If he is such a big believer in free speech, he would criticize the Koran and not call for a ban. Also, the Koran is hardly the only holy book which has violent themes, why hasn't he called for there banning also? I would at least expect him to be consistent. He is not the defender of free speech he claims to be, if he was he would be defending people right to read/print the Koran. He is just another hypocritical right winger, he wants free speech for himself and not for others.My point there was, 1 group is called "teenagers" and the others are called Skinheads. Call both groups teenagers and i am fine with it. Give specifics of one group, then do it for the other as well.
The Moroccans do belong to some kind of group, they form some kind of a rap group and their song texts don't leave much space for interpretation
If i hadn't seen a video recording of the incident than i would not have known what really was going on.
Things being said in that clip makes it a racist attack on the 2 white teenagers. I could post the link but since what is said is in Dutch....
Well I haven't see the report and can't make a judgment either way.
Also, one example of this type of reporting doesn't amount to much. Unless, the entirety of the media makes a habit of it and from I am seen it tends to be the other way around, at least in the reports I read in the BBC etc.0 -
Lennoxschips wrote: »Eoin5, his film hasn't been banned at all. Wilders' free speech is not under threat in the Netherlands. In fact, every breath that man utters is plastered all over the media. Anybody who lives here knows that. Wilders is a master of playing the media. The "PC liberal left-centre" agenda against him is a figment of people's imagination. That man has the Dutch press eating out of the palm of his hand.
Free speech is under threat in other ways. Last month protesters (inlcuding a member of parliament for the GreenLeft party) were arrested for displaying pickets that said "WILDERS=EXTREMIST". The Police said they were slogans of an insulting nature. Even Wilders himself (again, a master of playing the media) said they shouldn't have been arrested.
I'm not saying theyre denying it, I'm praising them for doing it. What I meant was that other nations seem to lack the conviction of their morals. What I'm worried about is that the dutch might be making a target of themselves as from the other side of the fence it looks like theyre trying to start a fight.0 -
I guess you also said that about Pim Fortuyn?Lennoxschips wrote: »Wilders is a master of playing the media. The "PC liberal left-centre" agenda against him is a figment of people's imagination.Lennoxschips wrote: »Free speech is under threat in other ways. Last month protesters (inlcuding a member of parliament for the GreenLeft party) were arrested for displaying pickets that said "WILDERS=EXTREMIST". The Police said they were slogans of an insulting nature. Even Wilders himself (again, a master of playing the media) said they shouldn't have been arrested.
Ok, so if Wilders defends freedom of speech by saying that those protesters shouldnt have been arrested, he is playing the media?
Let me ask you one thing? You pay rent?0 -
So you compare 1 hospital in Holland and 1 in Ireland and that justifies 42% tax.Lennoxschips wrote: »Yes, to visit my sister. She was in her own room with private bathroom. All through standard health coverage.
I also visited my grandfather in Ireland. He was in a room with 35 other beds and about 1 meter between each bed.
Health care in Holland, despite the 42%, is really not better than in Ireland. It used to be much better but where Ireland must have improved, health care in Holland is on a ride down hill.
I dont care if i have my own room in an hospital or not, it is nice, i agree. But the difference here is most likely in which hospital you end up than it is a general thing.
But what is important to me is waiting lists. And they are in Holland just as bad as in Ireland.
And i'd say only 1 newspaper is doing that, De Telegraaf. The rest of them is too busy being PC.Lennoxschips wrote: »The Dutch press almost always calls second and even third generation immigrants "Turks" an "Marrokaans". 99% of the time I'd say.
People who entered the country before 2001 had had their cases dealt with.Lennoxschips wrote: »If you had read the pardon law you will note that it only applies to people who arrived before 2001 and had not yet been processed. That means people who had been waiting some six years in limbo. Some of them had Dutch born five year olds at school. The Dutch government couldn't run a proper immigration system, acknowledged this and granted asylum to people who were forced to suffer under it. That's what the pardon was about..
That the asylum process allowed them to keep appealing to the same decision time and again is because the process was crap. 1x appeal i can live with but if you are denied permanent residence 4 or 5 time i think you should take the message.
I like to point out that i have nothing against refugess coming in because they are in real danger in their own country. At 1 point though 85/90% of "refugees" were just coming in for economical reasons. And that is not what asylum is meant to be for.
You mention "growing up" so i suppose you were still a kid. Kids go for what they think are your weaknesses. If you would happen to be wearing glasses they probably would have told you "to "**** off 4-eyes"Lennoxschips wrote: »To be honest, the most problems I've had growing up in Holland have been with white people. Being at the playground and told to **** off back to Ireland while getting rocks thrown at you, that kind of thing. But despite that I have no issues with "the Dutch." I have the ability to seperate the actions of a few scumbags from their nationality/ethnic background at large.
Now i take it you are an adult, how many times does it happen a grown up native dutch (or white guy if you like) tells you to feck off because you are Irish?0 -
So you compare 1 hospital in Holland and 1 in Ireland and that justifies 42% tax.
Health care in Holland, despite the 42%, is really not better than in Ireland. It used to be much better but where Ireland must have improved, health care in Holland is on a ride down hill.
I dont care if i have my own room in an hospital or not, it is nice, i agree. But the difference here is most likely in which hospital you end up than it is a general thing.
But what is important to me is waiting lists. And they are in Holland just as bad as in Ireland.
The waiting list for an endoscopy in Ireland can be as much as 8 months. In the Netherlands it's 24 hours. If you had been following the Irish news then you would know that Ireland has some of the longest waiting lists in Europe. According to the latest EHCI report, the Netherlands has the second best health service in Europe.
If you are trying to argue that public services in Ireland are just as good as in the Netherlands then you are really on to a non-starter. Public transport, water supply, waste disposal, health services, roads, driving testing services, whatever, it's all better in the Netherlands and that's down to better taxation.And i'd say only 1 newspaper is doing that, De Telegraaf. The rest of them is too busy being PC.
NRC Handelsblad has a whole section devoted to it
Het Parool, Volkskrant, Trouw, AD, the TV news is all the same. Seriously, I wonder if you read the papers at all. Second or third generaton people born and raised in the Netherlands are referred to as "Turkish" or "Moroccan". Never "Dutch-Turkish" or "Dutch-Moroccan." And people wonder why these people feel alienated...People who entered the country before 2001 had had their cases dealt with.
That the asylum process allowed them to keep appealing to the same decision time and again is because the process was crap. 1x appeal i can live with but if you are denied permanent residence 4 or 5 time i think you should take the message.
I like to point out that i have nothing against refugess coming in because they are in real danger in their own country. At 1 point though 85/90% of "refugees" were just coming in for economical reasons. And that is not what asylum is meant to be for.
You have absolutely no proof that these people were denied residence "4 or 5" times. None at all. But, even if they did, they are in entitled to their due process and the fact of the matter is that the Dutch immigration services were unable to process them in a timely manner.
You also have absolutely no proof that "85/90%" came for economical reasons. None at all.You mention "growing up" so i suppose you were still a kid. Kids go for what they think are your weaknesses. If you would happen to be wearing glasses they probably would have told you "to "**** off 4-eyes"
Now i take it you are an adult, how many times does it happen a grown up native dutch (or white guy if you like) tells you to feck off because you are Irish?
Oh, if I mention that the weather is miserable today then sometimes I get told to go to Ireland if I don't like the Dutch weather. Stupid snide comments like that.
As a child or as a grown up, I've never had negative treatment from a Moroccan, only from white Dutch. I'm not saying that this is indicative of an overall trend, it's just my experience.0 -
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speedboatchase wrote: »and is known for his anti-Islamic views, for example calling the religion "retarded
He makes a good point, he should have just added all other religions in there as well.0 -
Lennoxschips wrote: »The waiting list for an endoscopy in Ireland can be as much as 8 months. In the Netherlands it's 24 hours. If you had been following the Irish news then you would know that Ireland has some of the longest waiting lists in Europe. According to the latest EHCI report, the Netherlands has the second best health service in Europe.
Did you read what i said? Ireland is trying to improve whereas Holland is in decline as it comes to health service.
Senior citizens, the ones who built up the country after WW2, who are in need of daycare, are getting bathed once a week, if they are lucky.
It might still be better in Holland but it all started with you pointing out that 42% tax on your salary is fine because there is such great health service in Holland. On top of that 42% tax on your income, you have to have health insurance and pay an awfull lot for that.Lennoxschips wrote: »If you are trying to argue that public services in Ireland are just as good as in the Netherlands then you are really on to a non-starter. Public transport, water supply, waste disposal, health services, roads, driving testing services, whatever, it's all better in the Netherlands and that's down to better taxation.
Public transport in Holland is changing and again, it is goign downhill. Last time i checked i still had to pay for it too, doesnt come out of the 42%
Water supply, everybody has to pay for their water, doesnt come out of the 42%
Waste disposal is indeed better in Holland.
Driving test in Ireland are a joke. But it is also not exacly free in Holland. Doesnt come out of the 42%
So far i havent seen anything you mention that justifies having to pay 42% of my income to the tax office. Why i have to pay 1,50 for a liter of petrol, why i have to pay tax on tax when i buy a car.
I dont know about you, you might like to work more than 3 hours of the day for absolutely nothing but i dont like it.
Going rather off topic here though
Since these people themselves say they are Turkish and Moroccan even after being born in Holland, why would i bother calling them Dutch-Turkish and Dutch-Moroccan?Lennoxschips wrote: »NRC Handelsblad has a whole section devoted to it
Het Parool, Volkskrant, Trouw, AD, the TV news is all the same. Seriously, I wonder if you read the papers at all. Second or third generaton people born and raised in the Netherlands are referred to as "Turkish" or "Moroccan". Never "Dutch-Turkish" or "Dutch-Moroccan." And people wonder why these people feel alienated...Lennoxschips wrote: »You have absolutely no proof that these people were denied residence "4 or 5" times. None at all. But, even if they did, they are in entitled to their due process and the fact of the matter is that the Dutch immigration services were unable to process them in a timely manner.
You also have absolutely no proof that "85/90%" came for economical reasons. None at all.
100.000 people came in every single year from everywhere in the world and you are telling me that those were genuine refugees?
It always amazed me how people, more often than not without any education at all, were capable of finding that ****ty little country in western europe. Maybe you can explain that?
Here is 20 eurocent, go call reality please.Lennoxschips wrote: »Oh, if I mention that the weather is miserable today then sometimes I get told to go to Ireland if I don't like the Dutch weather. Stupid snide comments like that.
Arent we a little sensitive?
If i don't like something here and people tell me go back to Holland, they are right.
But i thin kthey are right... Being Irish you shouldnt complain too much about Dutch weather ;-)
Well.... when i was groing up and in school i had 1 Chinese guy, a girl from Surinam, a guy from pakistan and a yugoslavan girl in my classroom and maybe 1 or 2 from Indonesia. we are talking 6 out of 25/30 kids.That for me is acceptable.Lennoxschips wrote: »As a child or as a grown up, I've never had negative treatment from a Moroccan, only from white Dutch. I'm not saying that this is indicative of an overall trend, it's just my experience
The place i lived wasnt exactly a village.
Nowadays, certainly on VMBO, we see classrooms of 80% turkish and moroccan kids. And believe me, the few dutch kids in those classes have it way harder than you ever had for being Irish in Holland.0 -
Water supply, everybody has to pay for their water, doesnt come out of the 42%
Holland is under sea. The government has to build dykes and keep out the sea. That comes out of your tax money. Water has to be taken from polluted rivers and heavily purified. This process is heavily subsidised. The metering of water in the Netherlands doesn't reflect the real cost, surely you know that.
Compare that to Ireland, where there is an abundance of clean, fresh water, yet the government still manages to get human excrement into the water supply.Public transport in Holland is changing and again, it is goign downhill. Last time i checked i still had to pay for it too, doesnt come out of the 42%
Don't play the fool, public transport in the Netherlands has been and is heavily subsidised. Public transport in Ireland is virtually non-existant in many areas.
How is Dutch public transport going downhill? On my bus route the buses couldn't have been more than 10 years old, yet they've replaced all the buses again with brand new ones. And they're building a new metro line. And just doubled the number of train tracks going to Utrecht. Train delays are being reduces again. Once again, the difference between your political view and reality come home to roost.Since these people themselves say they are Turkish and Moroccan even after being born in Holland, why would i bother calling them Dutch-Turkish and Dutch-Moroccan?
I hear that lame excuse a lot. If people aren't accepted, then they will act as if they are not accepted, so they won't be accepted, and the vicious cycle goes on. It's a chicken and egg situation. But if nobody is willing to do anything about it then you'll never get anywhere, will you? Blame everyone else, I guess that's the easiest way.0 -
I seem to recall you bringing this up on another thread, quoting similar figures and failing to back it up with any sources.People who entered the country before 2001 had had their cases dealt with.
That the asylum process allowed them to keep appealing to the same decision time and again is because the process was crap. 1x appeal i can live with but if you are denied permanent residence 4 or 5 time i think you should take the message.
I like to point out that i have nothing against refugess coming in because they are in real danger in their own country. At 1 point though 85/90% of "refugees" were just coming in for economical reasons. And that is not what asylum is meant to be for.
+1bill_ashmount wrote: »He makes a good point, he should have just added all other religions in there as well.
Do they? In what way?Nowadays, certainly on VMBO, we see classrooms of 80% turkish and moroccan kids. And believe me, the few dutch kids in those classes have it way harder than you ever had for being Irish in Holland.0 -
Lennoxschips wrote: »Holland is under sea. The government has to build dykes and keep out the sea. That comes out of your tax money. Water has to be taken from polluted rivers and heavily purified. This process is heavily subsidised. The metering of water in the Netherlands doesn't reflect the real cost, surely you know that.
Compare that to Ireland, where there is an abundance of clean, fresh water, yet the government still manages to get human excrement into the water supply.
You are confusing 2 things, Water supply and water management. The dykes are water managemnt, you were mentioning water supply.
Dutch government should go after the poluters of the rivers in Europe in stead of again come up with some stupid tax for the working guy.Lennoxschips wrote: »Don't play the fool, public transport in the Netherlands has been and is heavily subsidised. Public transport in Ireland is virtually non-existant in many areas.
How is Dutch public transport going downhill? On my bus route the buses couldn't have been more than 10 years old, yet they've replaced all the buses again with brand new ones. And they're building a new metro line. And just doubled the number of train tracks going to Utrecht. Train delays are being reduces again. Once again, the difference between your political view and reality come home to roost.
Reality is that lines are being cut, where there used to be 4 buses in 1 hour, now there is 2 in 90 minutes.
Really, what you experience is not the standard in Holland. Go tell my sister that there is brilliant public transport in Holland when she had to travel for 3 hours for a check up in the hospital, a trip that by car would have taken her 25 minutes. Unfortunately she was banned from driving due to illness.
Those so called improvements you mention are all in your local area. YOUR situation might improve, in general it is going down.
I can tell you that Irish public transport is absolutely fantastic..... for me. I get where i need to be in short time.
But, unlike you, i realise that my situation is not the general situation. So i know PT is bad in Ireland. The way the buslines are set up in Dublin is an absolute joke.
And i am getting tired of being blamed for the fact that these people dont feel accepted. Why would i keep making efforts while they dont even take on the most basic skill requiered to get along, the language.Lennoxschips wrote: »I hear that lame excuse a lot. If people aren't accepted, then they will act as if they are not accepted, so they won't be accepted, and the vicious cycle goes on. It's a chicken and egg situation. But if nobody is willing to do anything about it then you'll never get anywhere, will you? Blame everyone else, I guess that's the easiest way.
40 years in Holland and still not being able to speak Dutch? Tell me... where is that my fault? Where did i make them feel not accepted?
Being able to communicate in your "new" country is the minimum of affort a person can do when living somewhere else.
I think that if i would be speaking Dutch here in Ireland life would not be easy. I even might feel as if i am not accepted. But i guess i should be blaming the Irish in that case according to your logic.
"No one gives us a job" or No one gives us internships" i hear and read a lot
Well.... i dont know about you, but no one has ever given me a job either. I had to make an effort for it.
These people make no effort whatsoever the become part of the Dutch society. They want to start their own little society within a society, go to their own mosques that are currently being built on about every free street corner.
The islam is a religion that is intolerant to other eligions or people who dont beleive in religion at all. Women are treated as 2nd rate, gays should be thrown of a flat with their heads down. It is ok for a muslim to lie to non-believers and i can keep going on with this.
Do you mind if i dont want that in my back garden? Do you mind that i tell these people that if they want to live according to medieval rules they should do that in a country where the majority like living like that?0 -
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I find all this talk about defending free speech to be severely hypocritical. The truth is that there are certain boundaries that are not crossed, specifically those that can lead to unrest and violence and amount to incitement.
In the UK for example, if someone wants to peddle pro-terrorist chants and encourage people to become suicide bombers, it is (rightly in my view) illegal and indeed criminal for them to do so, because they are trying to incite a criminal act and cause harm to others.
Similarly Nazi propaganda is illegal in Germany.
I won't even start on the U.S. and their version of "freedom" and "free speech."
The comments and the film by Mr. Wilders also should fall into this category. He is making a very personal and opinionated generalisation that demonises a large section of society and encourages division and hatred. Granted he isn't directly calling for violence, but he doesn't need to. Creating hate is more than enough. His actions constitute incitement to racism and violence and should not be tolerated in a supposedly secular society.
If tomorrow someone walked around the streets of Ireland calling for all the Bibles in the world to be burned he'd at the very least be dismissed as a nutjob. Why should Mr. Wilders' actions then recieve preferential treatment?
If you are going to defend his "right" to demonise Muslims, then you should defend the "right" of extremist Muslims to call for terrorists acts against westerners also.
Or is this another case of, hey if he's demonising Muslims, us white folk won't have to worry about being knifed in an alley by a racist scumbag who didn't have the sense to think for himself and was influenced by his polarised polemic?0 -
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I seem to recall you bringing this up on another thread, quoting similar figures and failing to back it up with any sources.
just to add a point here off the top of my head; the Irish government figures around the turn of the 21st century when the asylum issue was gaining momentum was that 90-something % (can't remember exactly what the 'something' was; maybe 4?) of all applications processed to that date had been rejected as not falling under the UN charter on refugees. In otherwords they were found to be economic migrants. I would imagine those figures have not deviated much (give or take 5-10%) in the intervening years.
I'd need to go digging for the details and tbh, I can't be arsed. If someone else wants to; you're more than welcome. My point is that I see little stretch of the imagination between the Dutch figures & Irish figures. Both small, fairly insignificant countries on the western peripheries of Europe, surrounded by lots of other well developed nations.0 -
I seem to recall you bringing this up on another thread, quoting similar figures and failing to back it up with any sources.
Here you go
http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/table.asp?STB=T&LA=nl&DM=SLNL&PA=37970ned&D1=a&D2=a,!0-24&HDR=G1
(Sorry, only able to get on this side via webproxy, i cant make nice looking links)
Unfortunately this is only going back till 2000. The 100.000 refugees a year era was mid 90's
But i hope you can see that if out 45000 in 2000 only 1810 got the A-status (definately a refugee in danger)
Then some 8500 more got a permit to stay
So 10.000 out 43000 if you like to see all of those 10.000 as refugees. 1800 only who got the real refugee staus.
You do the maths
And before you dismiss this link, as you seem to do a lot, this link is from CBS.nl
The link i couldnt find in english, lots of other stuff on that side is in english and i am sure there must be an "about cbs" link ther as well.
As said, because of awkward ways to get here, linking is not advised for me.0 -
Then try explaining this. Or indeed, this.I find all this talk about defending free speech to be severely hypocritical. The truth is that there are certain boundaries that are not crossed, specifically those that can lead to unrest and violence and amount to incitement.
In the UK for example, if someone wants to peddle pro-terrorist chants and encourage people to become suicide bombers, it is (rightly in my view) illegal and indeed criminal for them to do so, because they are trying to incite a criminal act and cause harm to others.
All gives rise to legitimate question about the role of Islam in modern Western society.
Which I don't think is right, tbh. After all, logic and circumstance today tells modern Germans that they have no quarrel with the Jews. So banning Mein Kampf doesn't really achieve anything except to give it a certain mystique. Banning something critical about Islam when its clear some senior figures and a lot of ordinary Muslims have a serious problem with the West and our lifestyles, that's another matter altogether.Similarly Nazi propaganda is illegal in Germany.
Why not? The likes of the KKK, as well as groups like the Black Panthers all have their full rights to speak, march or write whatever they like. There is a full and open exchange of ideas, even if those ideas are worthless.I won't even start on the U.S. and their version of "freedom" and "free speech."
I don't know anything about him or his work, granted, but he should still be free to speak his piece without fear of repression or murder.The comments and the film by Mr. Wilders also should fall into this category. He is making a very personal and opinionated generalisation that demonises a large section of society and encourages division and hatred.
With Islamic sensitivities in the balance, merely asserting your right to freedom of expression is enough to spark off a wave of madness and savagery, as Kurt Westergraad, Salman Rushdie, Theo Van Gogh all found out to their peril. We all know this. What is your point?Granted he isn't directly calling for violence, but he doesn't need to.
Because I would defend his right to SAY that, but would have no part in any actual bible burning. Merely protecting his right to say what he feels is what is required.If tomorrow someone walked around the streets of Ireland calling for all the Bibles in the world to be burned he'd at the very least be dismissed as a nutjob. Why should Mr. Wilders' actions then recieve preferential treatment?
They have, but IMHO they should all be deported if they hate us so much.If you are going to defend his "right" to demonise Muslims, then you should defend the "right" of extremist Muslims to call for terrorists acts against westerners also.0 -
If you are going to defend his "right" to demonise Muslims, then you should defend the "right" of extremist Muslims to call for terrorists acts against westerners also.
Right, so you think it is ok to start killing when someone verbally critisizes you?
For me, the way the Islamic world is reacting on this movie only proofs Wilders has a point.
Flag burning, calls for killing Wilders while there has not been a single second of that movie made public.....0 -
Here is the official data on asylum applications for the 10-year period from 1990 - 1999; it's a long way off 100,000 per year.The 100.000 refugees a year era was mid 90's
He didn't say anything about killing. If Wilders can say whatever the hell he wants, then surely the same privilege has to be extended to everyone else, Muslim or not, no?Right, so you think it is ok to start killing when someone verbally critisizes you?0 -
He didn't say anything about killing. If Wilders can say whatever the hell he wants, then surely the same privilege has to be extended to everyone else, Muslim or not, no?
(Western headbanger) Wilders demonises Muslims; nobody gets killed
Muslim headbanger demonises van Gogh: he gets stabbed to death in the street
spot the difference?0 -
I never said I agreed with what Memnoch said.El Stuntman wrote: »(Western headbanger) Wilders demonises Muslims; nobody gets killed
Muslim headbanger demonises van Gogh: he gets stabbed to death in the street
spot the difference?0 -
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how do you know wilders has not incited anyone to kill or act violently agasint people?0
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lostexpectation wrote: »how do you know wilders has not incited anyone to kill or act violently agasint people?
I'm willing to bet he hasn't - show me a link that says otherwise0 -
It is possible that Wilders' comments are inciting hatred, resulting in someone from an ethnic minority being attacked or even just racially abused. I'm not saying that this has definitely happened (I would imagine the latter has), but it is certainly possible.El Stuntman wrote: »I'm talking about the difference between inflammatory speech on both radical sides and the consequences
I'm suggesting that there's a massive disparity, surely you have to acknowledge this?
Suppose a Muslim is killed and the murderer dedicates the crime to Wilders - should Wilders be censored then?0 -
Lennoxschips wrote: »The waiting list for an endoscopy in Ireland can be as much as 8 months. In the Netherlands it's 24 hours. If you had been following the Irish news then you would know that Ireland has some of the longest waiting lists in Europe. According to the latest EHCI report, the Netherlands has the second best health service in Europe.
If you are trying to argue that public services in Ireland are just as good as in the Netherlands then you are really on to a non-starter. Public transport, water supply, waste disposal, health services, roads, driving testing services, whatever, it's all better in the Netherlands and that's down to better taxation.
NRC Handelsblad has a whole section devoted to it
Het Parool, Volkskrant, Trouw, AD, the TV news is all the same. Seriously, I wonder if you read the papers at all. Second or third generaton people born and raised in the Netherlands are referred to as "Turkish" or "Moroccan". Never "Dutch-Turkish" or "Dutch-Moroccan." And people wonder why these people feel alienated...
You have absolutely no proof that these people were denied residence "4 or 5" times. None at all. But, even if they did, they are in entitled to their due process and the fact of the matter is that the Dutch immigration services were unable to process them in a timely manner.
You also have absolutely no proof that "85/90%" came for economical reasons. None at all.
Oh, if I mention that the weather is miserable today then sometimes I get told to go to Ireland if I don't like the Dutch weather. Stupid snide comments like that.
As a child or as a grown up, I've never had negative treatment from a Moroccan, only from white Dutch. I'm not saying that this is indicative of an overall trend, it's just my experience.
you state that public serivces are better in holland because of fairer taxation
if the highest earners her paid 70% , our services would still be crap for the simple reason that public servants here dont have a sense of duty
they have a sense of entitlement0 -
It is possible that Wilders' comments are inciting hatred, resulting in someone from an ethnic minority being attacked or even just racially abused. I'm not saying that this has definitely happened (I would imagine the latter has), but it is certainly possible.
Suppose a Muslim is killed and the murderer dedicates the crime to Wilders - should Wilders be censored then?
to back up your point, please provide some Wilders quotes that could reasonably be construed as an incitement to kill Muslims. I'll concede the point once you do but I don't expect to have to0 -
El Stuntman wrote: »to back up your point, please provide some Wilders quotes that could reasonably be construed as an incitement to kill Muslims.
http://infidelsarecool.com/2007/02/17/amsterdam-politician-get-rid-of-half-the-koranTake a walk down the street and see where this is going. You no longer feel like you are living in your own country. There is a battle going on and we have to defend ourselves. Before you know it there will be more mosques than churches!
Sounds pretty militant to me.
More mosques than churches?!? :eek: May God have mercy on us all!0 -
http://infidelsarecool.com/2007/02/17/amsterdam-politician-get-rid-of-half-the-koran
Sounds pretty militant to me.
More mosques than churches?!? :eek: May God have mercy on us all!
lol @ the name of the site you're using to back up your argument, what's their story?
there is nothing that suggests violence in that article anyway (unless it's violence towards books)0 -
Fine. The quote's reprinted here. And here. I could go on...El Stuntman wrote: »lol @ the name of the site you're using to back up your argument, what's their story?
That particular quote certainly does suggest violence, depending of course on one's interpretation of the words "defend" and, in particular, "battle".El Stuntman wrote: »there is nothing that suggests violence in that article anyway (unless it's violence towards books)0 -
I'll make it easy for you: here's some paraphrasing
Nutjob A: "Muslims/Christians/Jews (delete as takes your fancy) are a backward religion and their culture is abominable to me and my value system. If they want to come and stay in my country, they should abide by the cultural and societal norms of my society. If they don't like those norms, they can get the hell back to where they came from"
Nutjob B: "Nutjob A's views are a sin in the eyes of Allah/Jesus/Yahweh (again delete as appropriate). It is your duty as a Christian/Muslim/Jew/Flying Yogic master/whatever to kill this infidel and be rewarded by your co-religionists on earth and in heaven by your God"
now neither is particularly pleasant but there are relativities here, which is worse?0 -
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Ignoring the fact that Nutjob A seems likeable compared to Wilders, B is obviously worse, but that's not the point. The issue is how will some other irrational low-life interpret and/or act on the words of Nutjob A/B.El Stuntman wrote: »now neither is particularly pleasant but there are relativities here, which is worse?0
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