Discrimination against non Muslims?

andrewh5 · 13-03-2008 11:52am #1

I recently had a relative fly into Dublin. In front of her at the Garda immigration desk was a muslim woman dressed in a burqa so all that was visible were her eyes. The Garda apparently glanced at the woman's passport (which had a photo of her wearing a burqa) & waved her on. When my relative went to him he scrutinised her photo and her face quite intently.

Think now of the sign on bank doors. Most say something to the effect of 'Motorcyclists please remove helmets before entering the branch'. Now, as a biker myself, I know that you can see a lot more of someone's face behind a motorcycle helmet than you can behind a burqa yet muslim women wearing them do not have to lift the veil when the enter a bank.

The person behind the burqa could be anyone - male or female. One of the London bombers tried to flee the UK wearing a burqa. Why are we so stupid as to allow burqa wearers entry to the country and to banks without demanding that the burqa be lifted for identification purposes? Why do we accept passport & ID photographs with a person wearing a burqa?

Is this not some kind of discrimination against everyone who is not a muslim female burqa wearer? Is it not discrimination against motorcyclists?

Comments please.

Fratton Fred · 13-03-2008 12:10pm

You are perfectly entitled to wear a Burqa if you like. Just because it is traditional for Muslims, doesn;t mean you can't wear one.

13-03-2008 12:12pm

Right-wing lamenters of the glory days of the Empire frequently complain about the hijacking of the term 'discrimination'. It used to mean good judgement, now it's a dirty word.

Generally they complain about complete lack of discrimination. You can't do anything that discriminates, even if it is important. A huge row was kicked up a while back about the British actively discriminating against young Muslim men in airport security. As a young man with a beard I can sympathise.

They will probably lament this tolerance of headgear as the latest example of lefty hypocrisy. Of course, they should be congratulating the bank on standing up for discrimination.

The real problem is the sexism. Expect a fiery polemic from Myers about the shabby treatment of beardy foreign men at airports while their bomb-carrying sisters are let waltz through...

13-03-2008 12:14pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You are perfectly entitled to wear a Burqa if you like. Just because it is traditional for Muslims, doesn;t mean you can't wear one.

Back in the Sheik garda reserves debacle, I was a fan of the idea that the problem would be solved if all gardaí wore turbans.

El Stuntman · 13-03-2008 12:23pm

905 wrote: »

Back in the Sheik garda reserves debacle, I was a fan of the idea that the problem would be solved if all gardaí wore turbans.

Sikh surely, not Sheikh?? two very different things

anyway I like your thinking

13-03-2008 12:32pm

El Stuntman wrote: »

Sikh surely, not Sheikh?? two very different things

anyway I like your thinking

Oooh, sorry I didn't swallow the pc guide to foreigne - sorry, interesting ethnicly diverse, enriching people. I suppose I deserve to be stoned now.

It wasn't my idea. It was a letter in either the Times or the Indo.

wes · 13-03-2008 12:36pm

905 wrote: »

Oooh, sorry I didn't swallow the pc guide to foreigne - sorry, interesting ethnicly diverse, enriching people. I suppose I deserve to be stoned now.

Being able to distinguish between 2 very different groups of people is hardly being PC. Its just common sense

.

andrewh5 · 13-03-2008 12:42pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You are perfectly entitled to wear a Burqa if you like. Just because it is traditional for Muslims, doesn;t mean you can't wear one.

I bet the Gardai would make you remove it for iedentification purposes if you had a male sounding voice and white hands though.

lostexpectation · 13-03-2008 12:48pm

don't worry andreh5 seeing you'll never leave the country it won't happen to you.

El Stuntman · 13-03-2008 12:48pm

andrewh5 wrote: »

I bet the Gardai would make you remove it for iedentification purposes if you had a male sounding voice and white hands though.

please, please try this out and report back to us with results

andrewh5 · 13-03-2008 12:57pm

lostexpectation wrote: »

don't worry andreh5 seeing you'll never leave the country it won't happen to you.

What makes you think that?

andrewh5 · 13-03-2008 12:58pm

El Stuntman wrote: »

please, please try this out and report back to us with results

I'm too busy with work. Please feel free to try it yourself though.

bonkey · 13-03-2008 1:06pm

andrewh5 wrote: »

The Garda apparently glanced at the woman's passport (which had a photo of her wearing a burqa) & waved her on.

How do you know what was on her passport photo?

Is this not some kind of discrimination against everyone who is not a muslim female burqa wearer? Is it not discrimination against motorcyclists?

Its possibly discrimination towards muslim female burka wearers who have passport photos of them wearing a burka.

It certainly isn't discrimination against anyone.

Comments please.

Rather than complaining that the rules apparently aren't being applied to some subset of travellers, you've complained that all travellers aren't being treated the same as this subset.

Its almost as though you're looking to make yourself hard done by.

andrewh5 · 13-03-2008 1:13pm

bonkey wrote: »

How do you know what was on her passport photo?

Its possibly discrimination towards muslim female burka wearers who have passport photos of them wearing a burka.

It certainly isn't discrimination against anyone.

Rather than complaining that the rules apparently aren't being applied to some subset of travellers, you've complained that all travellers aren't being treated the same as this subset.

Its almost as though you're looking to make yourself hard done by.

Not at all. Is it right that burqa wearers are allowed to bypass correct facial identification? Surely it isn't. If all other females have to display their faces on their passport photographs and remove sunglasses etc when they go through immigration/security, so should burqa wearers? Surely it is a security issue?

El Stuntman · 13-03-2008 1:21pm

why is this thread in politics, should it not be moved to commuting and transport?

andrewh5 · 13-03-2008 1:32pm

El Stuntman wrote: »

why is this thread in politics, should it not be moved to commuting and transport?

isn't political correctness a political issue then?

Gobán Saor · 13-03-2008 4:32pm

Surely her passport photo can't be of her wearing the burka? I mean that would be useless for identification purposes. There are strict requirements for Irish (and EU) passports which specify the type of face shot that's acceptable, ie no dark glasses, eyes open, white background etc. If other countries issue passports that don't allow visual identification of the carrier then we should simply refuse admission to those passport holders. (Or perhaps issue a special visa with acceptable photo ID?) Problem solved.

In any event, if it is deemed necessary to visually identify passport holders at passport control, then burkas, motorcycle helmets, balaclavas and any similar headgear should be removed. It's our country, our borders and (subject to EU law regarding freedom of movement for EU citizens) we are allowed set out our conditions for entry. And visual identification against a passport photo is an eminently reasonable entry requirement. If you don't like it, you don't have to come here.

andrewh5 · 13-03-2008 4:43pm

Gobán Saor wrote: »

Surely her passport photo can't be of her wearing the burka? I mean that would be useless for identification purposes. There are strict requirements for Irish (and EU) passports which specify the type of face shot that's acceptable, ie no dark glasses, eyes open, white background etc. If other countries issue passports that don't allow visual identification of the carrier then we should simply refuse admission to those passport holders. (Or perhaps issue a special visa with acceptable photo ID?) Problem solved.

In any event, if it is deemed necessary to visually identify passport holders at passport control, then burkas, motorcycle helmets, balaclavas and any similar headgear should be removed. It's our country, our borders and (subject to EU law regarding freedom of movement for EU citizens) we are allowed set out our conditions for entry. And visual identification against a passport photo is an eminently reasonable entry requirement. If you don't like it, you don't have to come here.

I agree with you totally but I have two questions:
1/ Are immigration officials/Gardai/bank offisking them to lift their veils? I doubt it.
2/ Can you imagine the crys of islamophobia/racism that would occur if an official carried out that action?

the GALL · 13-03-2008 4:51pm

could they not just check the signatures on the passports?.
It's just a thought, or like the US do a finger print scan or retinal scan.

andrewh5 · 13-03-2008 5:28pm

the GALL wrote: »

could they not just check the signatures on the passports?.
It's just a thought, or like the US do a finger print scan or retinal scan.

We don't have the technology here for retinal scans and signatures are notorious to forge. Why can't they just lift the veil? There is absolutely nothing in the Q'uran that says they must cover their faces anyway so it is not a religious requirement.

Fratton Fred · 13-03-2008 5:40pm

andrewh5 wrote: »

We don't have the technology here for retinal scans and signatures are notorious to forge. Why can't they just lift the veil? There is absolutely nothing in the Q'uran that says they must cover their faces anyway so it is not a religious requirement.

They are made to lift their veil in a lot of countries, most airports have a private room in which this can be done. If the women was travelling on an EU passport though, they may not have considerd this necessary.

rowlandbrowner · 13-03-2008 5:42pm

jaysus, all this pc nonsence, white middleclass men have never had it so bad....

Airport authorities are simply trying to make a balance between security fears and not offending somebody’s culture. Its pains me to hear people argue that white Christians with no distinguishing cultural traits for the authorities to politely excuse are somehow the ones being discriminated. Maybe I’m a deluded lefty but in my opinion people who think PC - which is fundamentally a law to insure people are threated fairly - is somehow a bad thing are idiots. The same type of idiots who vote bnp and read those rags produced by Murdoch.

meditraitor · 13-03-2008 5:53pm

andrewh5 wrote: »

I recently had a relative fly into Dublin. In front of her at the Garda immigration desk was a muslim woman dressed in a burqa so all that was visible were her eyes. .

Strangely enough I never considered the fact that some muslim woman have a picture of a burkha covered head on their passport.
I believe strongly that they should be refused entry if they dont show their face.

andrewh5 wrote: »

Is it not discrimination against motorcyclists?

.

Your answering your own question ;-

andrewh5 · 13-03-2008 6:09pm

rowlandbrowner wrote: »

jaysus, all this pc nonsence, white middleclass men have never had it so bad....

Airport authorities are simply trying to make a balance between security fears and not offending somebody’s culture. Its pains me to hear people argue that white Christians with no distinguishing cultural traits for the authorities to politely excuse are somehow the ones being discriminated. Maybe I’m a deluded lefty but in my opinion people who think PC - which is fundamentally a law to insure people are threated fairly - is somehow a bad thing are idiots. The same type of idiots who vote bnp and read those rags produced by Murdoch.

You said it & i don't read any Murdoch rags or vote BNP. I am concerned that PC is going too far. If we moved to Saudi Arabia would we expect our wives/girlfriends/daughters to be able to walk around in belly tops & mini skirts & drive cars? The answer is no because Saudi law prohibits all of those. Given that, why do we allow muslim women to dress in burqas or at least not lift their veils for identification purposes? As another poster has said, some countries do insist on it.

the GALL · 13-03-2008 6:10pm

andrewh5 wrote: »

We don't have the technology here for retinal scans and signatures are notorious to forge. Why can't they just lift the veil? There is absolutely nothing in the Q'uran that says they must cover their faces anyway so it is not a religious requirement.

Have you read the Q'uran(koran)
4:34 Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other,and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts beacuse GGod has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, forsake them in beds (or bedrooms) apart, and beat them. then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surlely God is hihg, supreme.
And here's some more
24:30 enjoin believing men to turn their eyes away from temptation and to restrain their carnel desires. This will make their lives purer. God has knowledge of all their actions.
Enjoin believing women to turn their eyes away from tempetation and to preserve thier chastity; Not to display their adornments (except such as are normally revealed); to draw veils over their bosoms and not to display their finery except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands fathers, their sons, their step sons, their brothers, their brothers son's their sisters' sons, their women servents and their girls; male attendents lacking in neutral vigour, and children who have no carnel knowledge of women. And let them not stamp their feet when walking so as to reveal their hidden trinkets.
Believers turn to God in your penitence, that you may prosper.

Allah akbar

Read the book then post.

andrewh5 · 13-03-2008 6:13pm

the GALL wrote: »

Have you read the Q'uran(koran)
4:34 Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other,and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts beacuse GGod has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, forsake them in beds (or bedrooms) apart, and beat them. then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surlely God is hihg, supreme.
And here's some more
24:30 enjoin believing men to turn their eyes away from temptation and to restrain their carnel desires. This will make their lives purer. God has knowledge of all their actions.
Enjoin believing women to turn their eyes away from tempetation and to preserve thier chastity; Not to display their adornments (except such as are normally revealed); to draw veils over their bosoms and not to display their finery except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands fathers, their sons, their step sons, their brothers, their brothers son's their sisters' sons, their women servents and their girls; male attendents lacking in neutral vigour, and children who have no carnel knowledge of women. And let them not stamp their feet when walking so as to reveal their hidden trinkets.
Believers turn to God in your penitence, that you may prosper.

Allah akbar

Read the book then post.

Nowt about covering faces there :rolleyes:
Says a lot about it being a loving religion tha treats women as equals too which a lot of islamic supporters claim :rolleyes:

the GALL · 13-03-2008 6:18pm

Read it again or will I put it in capitals and put more spaces in.

andrewh5 · 13-03-2008 6:24pm

NOTHING about veils over faces! Veils over bosoms yes. faces NO. Unless of course you are just reading into the text what you want to see?

Oh and god is not great. S/he is a fairy story but that's another post.

the GALL · 13-03-2008 6:59pm

andrewh5 wrote: »

NOTHING about veils over faces! Veils over bosoms yes. faces NO. Unless of course you are just reading into the text what you want to see?

Oh and god is not great. S/he is a fairy story but that's another post.

Your missing the point, your beliefs are your beliefs.
The muslim beliefs are taken from the koran, the koran is the book of God. The muslim lives their life according to the bookof God.
What your saying doesn't make sence because you don't believe/like in the muslim religon/custom it's wrong. How is it wrong?
The muslim also abstains from alcohol ....that's wrong?
The muslim ceases trade on friday's ......that's wrong?
The muslim don't eat pork......now that's definitaly wrong?
I think your just jumping on the band wagon. Have you been outside the state?, it really is nice with lot's of different culture's and people

djpbarry · 13-03-2008 8:37pm

andrewh5 wrote: »

Can you imagine the crys of islamophobia/racism that would occur if an official carried out that action?

No. What would it be like?

andrewh5 wrote: »

Given that, why do we allow muslim women to dress in burqas ...

You think that women should be told how to dress?

Raintonite · 13-03-2008 9:13pm

After working in London, we sped down the road to Holy head and bought a ticket from Holy Head at the last minute for the ferry to Dublin. When security heard our accents they immediatedly stopped us and took us in for questioning one by one. We obviously missed the ferry and couldn't get a refund. When did this happen? In July 1979. No, in July 2007. We have Ulster accents although we all live in the republic. Obviously, the "authorities" in Wales hadn't heard about the cease-fire and the new arrangements. After being kept from the first ferry, and knowing we were "legitimate" passangers they tried the same caper the next morning. Only until I, as the driver, said they wouldn't do this to a black man in public hearing did they let us go on our way. Figure.