Lease from 1740? where do i look?

ivanthehunter

I have just found a reference to a lease for a large south Dublin property which once belonged to my family. I found it in the folio map of the aforementioned property.. In 1740 the property was leased for 999years.. What does this mean in terms of ownership and why was it done for 999 years(i assume it was tax avoidance)
If the land was only leased then what would happen if i was the only surviving heir and i wanted to make a claim against the right on the land. by this i mean rights to fishing which i believe are held in ownership by the deeds.
Where would i find such deeds.
any way it looks like I'll be flat out searching archives and other possible areas for info:rolleyes:
Any clues as to, where to start the research in to the mammoth task of finding the old documents would be greatly appreciated.:)

johnfás

The Registry of Deeds I would imagine. I had to do a search there once, like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Maximilian

In a nutshell, 999 year leases were granted so that a freehold equivalent could be sold but with covenants or conditions attached eg. not to build a slaughterhouse on the lands. Such conditions couldn't effectively be attached if the freehold were sold.

I would guess however, for reasons too long to go into here, that the value of that lease would be little or nothing.

ivanthehunter

its the covenants and conditions that i,m interested in.. Some of the old folio maps had burdens which provided enjoyment rights for members of the original owners and their heirs and assigns etc.. i intend to claim that i am such an Heir(as i am related).... I will place the onus of proving this on the leaser( i hope that the low level of intrudment that these rights might inflict on them will not press them into doing so)
There are several properties which were sold in a 999 year lease fashion which once belonged to my family. there are also large tracts of land which i know where once belonging to my family which have never been registered. Again i state that i am only interested in the rights which were attached to these legal documents and in particular interest is the right to rome, hunt, and access the properties.. I thank you lads for your info

Victor

Would you name happen to be Darley, Fitzwillian, Herbert, Pembroke of the like? The title of some of those lands date back to Strongbow in the 12th century.

While the worth of a ground rent on residential property is negligible, the Pembroke Estate is reputed to be taking in nice sums of money from commercial property, especially where the occupier wants to make changes.

ivanthehunter

Jolly good stab at the name old chap!! This sort of thing is rather 'top drawer'.
The name is quite close, but coz i ave lived in dublin for years bud! i speaks like this now... yea got it.. sound!!! bud!!! sound!!!!:cool:

Victor

Oh, one thing, an ordinary right of way has to be in continuous use for it to be valid. One can't claim because your grandfather used X's garden as a RoW in 1930 that you can also, despite it not being used in the meantime.

I don't know how this affects rights included on deeds.

ivanthehunter

As far as i am aware a RoW is set in existence by agreement or by unmolested passage over a specific path or route for a period greater than 7 years for at least one day per year. It must be out of use for 12 years and the person should make a legal claim to have such a claim struck from a deed or folio map. i could be wrong as this info is not from the horses mouth

Tom Young

999 years is a long time.

ivanthehunter

Tom Young wrote: »

999 years is a long time.

Yes its a long time but it similar to a normal sale except that here the vendor can attach conditions and burdens to the sale as in reality he is still the owner.. The conditions i am interested in are in relation to access and sporting rights.

Tom Young

Really, so are we talking here about a 'sale' or a 'lease'?

Access and sporting rights, on the basis that the owner intends to frustrate the leaseholders interests, or other?

Tom

Victor

Such leases were created in a time where a landlord (who often was an actual Lord) wanted to sell of the farming and most other rights and keep the fishing and hunting rights for himself. I don't know when Irish lands were enclosed, but I imageine much of hte land was originally open pasture, without boundaries.

It is mostly likely a fee farm lease or somesuch where the occupier has pretty much all the rights of a free holder except for specific rights withheld, the "no slaughterhouse" being a typical one. Some leases had nominal rents, others were considered paid up from the start.

The expansion of the city into the countryside created obvious difficulties. However, these were largely resolved by allowing tenants buy out the ground rent.

ivanthehunter

thanks victor for that info, it very interesting.
I have recently found a reference to a fee farm but was un sure of it meaning.
In this particular reference there seems to be no mention of the party which held the sporting rights but thats probable going to involve a trip to the national archive office in bishop st....

Victor

Google "pembroke estate", you'll find a few interesting bits. I think some of the achieves are in Bishop Street and some in the UK.

---

Baggot Street Hospital has a plaque (main entrance hall) that notes a donation by Countess Pembroke

It gives family crests and aparently she was originally a Talbot. Your great, great, .... grand ma was a northsider!

ivanthehunter

All joking aside, I am related to the talbots.. Wish i had the money thet once had:D