An intresting legal question

Grizzly 45

Was having a natter with my local Garda CPO about things firearms in general.He is actually quite approachable,and is even thinking of applying for a liscense himself for a handgun.
Two points came up of intrest.[1] In the future if you have a handgun and are transporting it by car it will have to be in a locked steel container secured to the car by either steel cable,chains or bolts to the car.Fair enough,and can be done without damaging the acr,if you use the chains,hawser and wrap them thru the seat mechanism.Lidil safesare cheap enough too. They arent too worried about long guns.Lock inthe boot,or secure in the car.

But this is what got him,supposing you are attending a pistol shoot,and are going to stay overnight somehere.What do you do with the pistol?
1] leave all in the car in the hope,car,safe,guns and ammo isnt all nicked?

2] Take to your room and secure by some means to somthing sturdy??Handcuff to the .....??? and proably give the chamber maid a coronory in the AM when she sees that?:D

3] Bizarrely,you can legally put the UNLOADED gun in your holster and put it under your jacket and wear in a public place.SOLONG as you are carrying your liscense on your person.Yes this is apprently 100% legal.:eek:It is an oversight of the law at the moment.But not adviseable as it gives us ligit shooters a bad name,and may attract an armed response unit,who might'nt be too up on current gun laws.:eek:

4] Take safe from car,bolt somhow to the wall of room.And end up paying a fortune for damage to the room???

5] Dissamble,and stash frame,clip and slide and barrel in room and carry other parts,stash other bits in car safe?

Dont worry it has the gardai baffled as well at the moment.

So anyone got any good ideas on this one??

Victor

1. Ask hotel for a room with a safe? Consider rendering weapon safe by taking something vital from it. The last thing you want is to go to the hotel bar have a few drinks and forget you are carrying it.

2. Local Garda Station.

3. Local club.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

3] Bizarrely,you can legally put the UNLOADED gun in your holster and put it under your jacket and wear in a public place.SOLONG as you are carrying your liscense on your person.Yes this is apprently 100% legal.

No, it's not. Look, this is not the first time it's been said. This sprouted from someone reading the form for the firearms cert as law (it's not, it's an instrument of the law). If you are stopped on the street with a firearm in a shoulder holster, you can be arrested under the 1990 firearms and offensive weapons act at the discretion of the arresting garda. In court, you can argue that you had a good reason for doing it, but the decision then is down to the judge, and most judges don't seem to think highly of people walking round the streets armed.

So anyone got any good ideas on this one??

Hotel safes are a good idea. Personally, the only times I've been in this situation, the rifles were squirrelled away in the room or rooms the team was sleeping in. Extraordinary measures not really needed. Common sense definitely required.

Grizzly 45

Local Garda station,unless it is a Div Hq wont be usually manned 24hrs.Nor will they accept responsibility for storage of private firearms.

Local club,unless it has storage facilities...??

Sparks

Most clubs know the nearest gun dealer (it being a symbiotic sort of deal), and all dealers need secure storage facilities. So the nearest dealer might be a good idea.

Grizzly 45

Sparks,
on this one I'll have to go with what a Irish law enforcement officer who deals with this every day says.
Also if this is the case,does that mean if you are walking ona public road going from one field to another going shooting game or whatnot.That you are now also in contravention of the law.as you are in a public place with a firearm.???

Hotel safes.The least safe option.Consider this,all hotel safes MUST have a master key and/or override for guests who lock their valueables in and forget the codes . It hasn't been unknown for not just manegerial staff to know this master code and for staff to help themselves to whatever takes their fancy.Happens a lot in Italy.I should know,my missus had 500 euros nicked from the hotel safe.

Sorry I should have added in previous post;this will be in Ireland,where hotel safes arent too common in country hotels or B&Bs,and [2] you are alone or in a group of two or three.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Sparks,
on this one I'll have to go with what a Irish law enforcement officer who deals with this every day says.

As much respect as I have for the job they do, I think it's pretty much common knowlege that the gardai's training in firearms law is somewhat... lacking. I would not cite them as good authorities on the subject.

Also if this is the case,does that mean if you are walking ona public road going from one field to another going shooting game or whatnot.That you are now also in contravention of the law.as you are in a public place with a firearm.???

As another member of the Gardai put it (and when it comes to how the law is enforced in practise, I think Gardai are authorities), if he saw you coming up from the river with a rod, a few fish and a fishing box and a six inch knife on your belt, it's a fishing knife for gutting and cleaning fish. If he saw you that night going into a disco with the same knife, it's an offensive weapon and you're going to get a good look at the inside of the cells in short order.

maglite

Not knowing the mechanics of specific handguns

but i would think the upper part of the gun looks and feels nothing like a gun, in an envelope in the safe or room, then

keep the handle, ie the bit that makes an impresion, in the car.

fro fifles you could have to bolt in the safe with the main body in the car or room,

another option is carry the bit you could put in a safe, you are not going to be carrying them for an extened period anyway

Traumadoc

Agree dismantle the firearm and seperate the parts.

Mellor

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Sparks,
on this one I'll have to go with what a Irish law enforcement officer who deals with this every day says.

See, its your assumption thats wrong there. Guards are trained in law enforcement, not in application of law, slight difference.
Areas of law are so vast that not every guard is fully trained in every aspect, there are task forces, narc unit will have a better knowledge of drugs, ERU would probablm have a decent knowledge of firearms etc. There just isnt time to train them in every aspect. As for everyday, most will rarely deal with this stuff. I have friends in the guards that would ask me about firearms, esp handguns.

meathstevie

+1 For Mellor. Have had similar experiences with a mate who's stationed in South Dublin. Something down the lines of : the FO isn't in, have you any idea what that yoke your man is on about is ? Saves me ringing around the shops.. . It's not that daft really : if you were a cop and you need to know something about let's say waste trafficing wouldn't you talk to one of your mates who works for a waste management company and might be knowledgeable about the issue ?

As for bringing your handgun for an overnighter stripping it down and keeping a few bits and bobs on you and the rest in the car/hotelroom might be the most workable option.

As for Sparks's example of the knife, that would be a common sense way of dealing with the issue of authorisation to carry a firearm allright. I'd look upon the guard who stops me with the shotgun over my shoulder down a country lane in mid November as a bit of an eejit but I'd regard the same lad as being very sensible if he stopped me to ask a few questions if he saw me carrying what looks like a gun case through a town center .

Grizzly 45

Ok,stripping and seperating seems to be the best option then.

Seeing that this is being considerd or will soon be law regarding safes in cars etc.Should we suggest that this might be the more sensible idea for carrying handguns in the future to and from shoots to the Gardai/DOJ?? With the exception of certain handguns that cannot be easily stripped down[IE single shot or target pistols].Which should be then locked in a hard shell and then secured to some point in the car?

As for the fisherman/hunter example.Is that safe anymore either??Considering how many piegon shooters in cammo have attracted an armed response ,courtsy of some Biddy Townie Curtaintwitcher who has mistaken the local hunter for the AlQuiedaout on manouvers??Sparks alluded that it has happened to a couple of folks already here in Ireland in another post??

Bananaman

I always take the barrel with me.

If the worst happens and the car or the hotel safe is robbed - the worst thing that happens is that you walk into a Garda station - show them the barrel - with serial num and your license and say that someone has robbed the other - userful as paperweigts - parts of this firearm.

Not a great situation I agree - you just lost your baby - but a hell of a lot better than reporting a stolen firearm and possibly never getting another !!!

I think the spirit of the thing is that you must do all in your power to ensure that a working firearm does not find it's way into the wrong hands.

(I even take the barrel out before I put it in my own safe at home)

B'Man

Taradusk

Sparks.
You say "If you are stopped on the street with a firearm in a shoulder holster, you can be arrested under the 1990 firearms and offensive weapons act at the discretion of the arresting Garda." I would be interested in knowing what Section of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons 1990 Act creates the offence of being in possession of the licenced Firearm, and cant find it. The possession use and carriage of a firearm seems to be governed by this text from the 1925 Act,,,,,,

Restrictions on possession, use, and carriage of firearms. 2.—(1) Subject to the exceptions from this section hereinafter mentioned, it shall not be lawful for any person after the commencement of this Act to have in his possession, use, or carry any firearm or ammunition save in so far as such possession, use, or carriage is authorised by a firearm certificate granted under this Act and for the time being in force.

[GA] (2) Save in any of the cases hereinafter excepted from this section, every person who after the commencement of this Act has in his possession, uses, or carries any firearm without holding a firearm certificate therefor or otherwise than as authorised by such certificate, or purchases, uses, has in his possession, or carries any ammunition without holding a firearm certificate therefor or in quantities in excess of those authorised by such certificate, or fails to comply with any condition subject to which a firearm certificate was granted to him, shall be guilty of an offence under this Act and shall be punishable accordingly.

[GA] (3) This section shall not apply to any of the following cases and such cases are accordingly excepted from this section, that is to say:—

[GA] ( a ) the possession or carriage of a firearm under and in accordance with a permit issued under this Act and for the time being in force;

Your Firearms Certificate reflects this possession use and carriage. If there is no special condition on this possession use and carriage, then you are apparently within your rights to possess the firearm if it is properly licenced. Notwithstanding this, it would be lunacy for a holder of a licenced firearm to carry it in such a manner as to cause a member of An Garda Siochana or a member of the public concern. Perhaps future licences should place such restrictions on owners to make it an offence to have a firearm in an inappropriate "personal defence" role.

The licence however, does permit possession use and carriage without restriction.

Taradusk

An interesting Case Stated...

http://www.courts.ie/Judgments.nsf/09859e7a3f34669680256ef3004a27de/e72a3d3cc7c26bb280256f2300331e63?OpenDocument

Double-Alpha

Forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm only new to all this including shooting & target sports but my oppinion would be that the person carrying their sporting target pistol / revolver in a shoulder holster or consealed under their jacket somewhere, would be a totaly irresponable shooter bringing the sport into serious disrepute.

What is that person trying to prove or do by carring his / her firearm in such a manner, are they coming or going to the target range, I don't think so, what do they intend to do with it hidden in such a fashion ??

I think only an idiot would do this, dispite what your certificate says.

At home my pistol is stripped and the parts stored in three diferent alarm protected safes. While in transit it is again stripped and stored in a fixed safe which is bolted into my car boot. I usually keep the barrel in my jacket pocket.

Thats my twopence worth, thanks for listening. :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Reason I asked was[1] There is No Clear law on carrying a firearm in a secure manner in Ireland going to or coming from a range,etc.
2] For advise on what would be the most safest way of carrying it and storing it if you were staying over night somwhere,or even if say your car broke down goung to or coming from the range.Would you like to leave your firearm and ammo in a car while you search for a phone for the AA or a scenario like that?
As I said even the Gardai are stumped on this one as well.So trying to find best practise,might even be the unpalatable methods as well.

Taradusk

The Guards are in no way stumped as to what action they might carrry out. A person would be quite foolish to carry a firearm in such a silly way given it was granted for sporting or recreational purposes. One of the conditions for the grant of a certificate is that the holder not be of unsound mind.

While possession use and carriage is a broad term, it is based on possession use and carriage for those sporting or recreational purposes. Having it in a shoulder holster would not meet those conditions. If found carrying, say goodbye to it, as it will be seized as evidence in relation to the investigation of an offence, and you will never see it again (unless in your dealers shop).:D

Sparks

Taradusk wrote: »

Sparks.
You say "If you are stopped on the street with a firearm in a shoulder holster, you can be arrested under the 1990 firearms and offensive weapons act at the discretion of the arresting Garda." I would be interested in knowing what Section of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons 1990 Act creates the offence of being in possession of the licenced Firearm

Section 9(5) and 9(6) of the 1990 Act.

(5) Where a person has with him in any public place any article intended by him unlawfully to cause injury to, incapacitate or intimidate any person either in a particular eventuality or otherwise, he shall be guilty of an offence.
(6) In a prosecution for an offence under subsection (5), it shall not be necessary for the prosecution to allege or prove that the intent to cause injury, incapacitate or intimidate was intent to cause injury to, incapacitate or intimidate a particular person; and if, having regard to all the circumstances (including the type of the article alleged to have been intended to cause injury, incapacitate or intimidate, the time of the day or night, and the place), the court (or the jury as the case may be) thinks it reasonable to do so, it may regard possession of the article as sufficient evidence of intent in the absence of any adequate explanation by the accused.

I've highlighted the parts that give this act jurisdiction over someone found carrying a firearm. Also, in the Firearms Act as amended, the section you quoted reads :

(2) ... every person who ... has in his possession, uses, or carries any firearm without holding a firearm certificate therefor or otherwise than as authorised by such certificate, ... , or fails to comply with any condition subject to which a firearm certificate was granted to him, shall be guilty of an offence under this Act and shall be punishable accordingly.

I've taken out the boilerplate here to make it a bit clearer. Now, note the preconditions of granting a firearms licence:

4. Before granting a firearm certificate to any person under this Act the superintendent of the Gárda Síochána or the Minister (as the case may require) shall be satisfied that such person—
...
( b ) can be permitted to have in his possession, use, and carry a firearm or ammunition without danger to the public safety or to the peace

Now, you may believe you're not a danger to the peace walking about with a firearm in your pocket. That most certainly is not, however, what the Gardai or Minister for Justice would believe. The Gardai are very explicit on their beliefs in this. For support, read this from the DoJ website:

Firearms certificates are only granted for recreational or sporting purposes. You will not be granted a licence for any weapon for the purposes of personal protection, protection of others or the protection of property.

In other words, you get caught carrying a pistol in a shoulder holster on O'Connell Street and the arresting Garda can charge you under the 1990 Act, show you to the cells, and you'll have to get up in the court in front of a judge and try to argue that the wording of your firearms cert (which is not set out in the Act by the way) somehow trumps the specifically worded part of section 9. You'll have to argue that despite the Gardai saying you couldn't have a firearm for self defence, you were allowed carry it in a way that is only suited to self defence. You'll have to argue that a citizen - not a Garda or a soldier on duty - walking down the street with a gun is somehow not a disturbance to the peace.

Frankly? I wouldn't waste breath trying to figure out the odds on that one. You'll get a raised eyebrow from the judge in all liklihood, and he'll probably enjoy telling the anecdote to his learned colleagues at some future date, by which time you'll be convicted of a breach of section 9 of the firearms and offensive weapons act 1990, which carries a penalty of up to a year in jail if you plead guilty; and up to five years in jail if you don't and lose.

Then, when you go to get your cert back, you have to wait for a further five years before you become eligible again; not to mention the minor inconvienence a conviction for a firearms offence would have on your professional and personal lives. And that's just for you - your case would then be cited by anyone looking for a quick "be seen to be doing something about gun crime" moment on the six-one news to support their position as Minister for Justice or Minister for State in the Justice Department or wherever. And the next thing you know, we're all having to weld steel boxes to the boots of our cars with biometric locks and a gps tracker in order to securely transport our air pistols.

Perhaps future licences should place such restrictions on owners to make it an offence to have a firearm in an inappropriate "personal defence" role.

They do. You must state the reason for having your certificate - "personal defence", as stated above, will not be accepted. Therefore if you're using it in that role, your cert is null and void and you're breaking quite a large number of firearms laws. Including the new one saying that it's now an offence to provide false information on your cert's application (before, your cert was just void; now it's void and you're breaking the law).

By the way, the case you cited above probably didn't see the 1990 act being used because being caught with a firearm but not using it carries a lighter sentence than the specific laws against being caught with a firearm and using it and refusing to surrender it to the Gardai until the ERU show up and force you to do so. I imagine the DPP thought "Why charge someone with a crime with a 1 year penalty when you can charge him with a crime with a 20 year penalty? Especially if he's running about with a sawn-off shotgun?"

Grizzly 45

[

quote=Taradusk;55417287]The Guards are in no way stumped as to what action they might carrry out.

Yes they Are Taradusk,as I was asking a crime prevention officer and a firearms officer on this very matter which started the post in the first place.Now if you are saying two Garda officers are wrong.I would suggest you enlighten them as well as Garda HQ and DoJ as to the exact law regarding transportation between range and home and what is The PROCEDURE for dealing with secure storage in event of vechicular breakdown,staying in accomadation overnight not you own for a period of time.Inc the CORRECT & SECURE method of carrying either long or short firearms in a public place for ligit purposes.Because none of them seem to know what the correct procedure is.

WE are NOT talking about carrying for self defence.Never have ,or was implied,and I dont know why it was introduced here or that everyone jumps on the question as a concealed carry issue.
I want either THE LAW on carrying your weapon securely in above mentioned circumstances.OR BEST PRACTISE.Not a debate on self defence,concealed carry or what not.

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yes they Are Taradusk,as I was asking a crime prevention officer and a firearms officer on this very matter which started the post in the first place. Now if you are saying two Garda officers are wrong. I would suggest you enlighten them as well as Garda HQ and DoJ as to the exact law regarding transportation between range and home

There is none. The firearms act (complete) is available to download from the Firearms Act sticky.

and what is The PROCEDURE for dealing with secure storage in event of vechicular breakdown,staying in accomadation overnight not you own for a period of time.Inc the CORRECT & SECURE method of carrying either long or short firearms in a public place for ligit purposes.Because none of them seem to know what the correct procedure is.

Because there is nothing written in law on the subject. Absolutely nothing. However, the soon to be issued guidelines will I'm sure have quite a bit to say about this.

WE are NOT talking about carrying for self defence.Never have ,or was implied,and I dont know why it was introduced here or that everyone jumps on the question as a concealed carry issue.
I want either THE LAW on carrying your weapon securely in above mentioned circumstances.OR BEST PRACTISE.Not a debate on self defence,concealed carry or what not.

Because you brought it up Grizzly:

Grizzly45 wrote:

3] Bizarrely,you can legally put the UNLOADED gun in your holster and put it under your jacket and wear in a public place.SOLONG as you are carrying your liscense on your person.Yes this is apprently 100% legal.

Which of course is wrong as Sparks pointed out. Your Garda acquaintances are not as well acquainted with the law as you seem to think.

fishdog

Grizzly 45, I have the greatest of respect for Gardai. However my experience is that they know little or nothing about the law when it comes to firearms. I was also told by some of them that they did not want to know either!!

I would seem to me that most firearms officers have no interest in shooting and did not even choose to be firearms officers in the first place. One fireamrs officer even told me that he did not know the difference between a shotgun and a rifle.

Whatever your FO or CPO told you with regards to firearms I would take with a large pinch of salt if I were you. I know some strongly anti gun Gardai that would have you put away for carrying a firearm in the manner that you described.

Grizzly 45

[

However, the soon to be issued guidelines will I'm sure have quite a bit to say about this.

Guidelines are not law,however.

Because you brought it up Grizzly:

And where exactly did I mention carrying for self defence in this????

Which of course is wrong as Sparks pointed out. Your Garda acquaintances are not as well acquainted with the law as you seem to think

Hmm well a firearms officer and a CPO of detective level and 15 odd years on the force who is also a shooter...Guess they dont know that much then:rolleyes:

Sethur

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So anyone got any good ideas on this one??

Yes think safety,Security and Don't Advertise

KennyCleveland

In the states we just carry it, legally, holstered, loaded. Doesn't this make you feel like children? Do you feel safer? Is your crime less? Geeesh.

Victor

KennyCleveland wrote: »

In the states we just carry it, legally, holstered, loaded. Doesn't this make you feel like children? Do you feel safer? Is your crime less? Geeesh.

Crime is much, much less, especially violent crime / crime with fire arms.

KennyCleveland

Are you sure? There's like 300 million of us. and like 80 million of us own guns. I'm 46, and have shot firearms since I was 5. In all that time, hundreds of thousands of rounds,I have never witnessed a gun jumping from its holster and shooting someone. I read that in England the number of subjects robbed at gunpoint in London last year rose 53%. and I saw recently on line a headline in the London Mirror "Britain has Overtaken the US for All Major Crimes."Are you really safer?Victor?Are You Sure?Or has your society so emasculated you that the thought of the responsibility of defending yourself,even your own children, terrifies you? This basic freedom, denied you for so long that you can't begin to comprehend it. boo? hiss? HA! If I am assualted Victor, God help the assailant. If you are assaulted Victor? God help you. Really Victor, who would you rather be.? A victim...? or a man?

Victor

Off-topic, but ...

I've survived with my wits and by being sober. Irish criem rate is less than half of the United State's. Admittedly, Irish figures are rising and are probably under-reported for minor crimes.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita

United States rate for murder is 4.5 times that for Ireland.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

United States rate for murder with firearms is 9.3 times that for Ireland.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

IRLConor

KennyCleveland wrote: »

Are you sure?

The statistics I found suggest that in 2005 (the only year I calculated for) there were 4.27 murders in the USA for every 1 in Ireland.

In 2005 there were 16,740 murders in the USA and a total population of about 297.6 million. In the same year there were 54 murders in Ireland and a total population of about 4.1 million.

A quick skim of the stats suggests that the USA has a higher crime rate across the board.

It wasn't me!

This isn't Britain.

Grizzly 45

Kenny,
While agreeing with you on RTKBA and concealed carry implicity.You cant compare like and like.We do NOT have a 2nd amendment here .Which depending on your views might be a good/bad situation.Nor are part of the United Kingdom of Britan,Scotland,Wales and N Ireland and various other bits.Haven't been for a long while,and quite frankly dont want to be associated with that lot.We are that little island to the left of England,in case you need to check it out on an Atlas.

Also we have at the moment MUCH BETTER gun laws than the British,in which we can still own more than they can after jumping thru a few burning hoops.[Which apprently is worrying a few people in the U K Govt for some reason.] quite frankly England is a total PC Socialist gun grabbing dictatorship,and it is not surprising that it is a mess of crime and incompetance.Sad compared to 100 years ago it had better RTKBA laws than even the USA.

Thirdly,read the posting rules here.RTKBA and self defence are no no topics.

Fourth,Yea it wouldnt be too difficult for the US to have a higher firearms related murder rate.Considering the pouplation ,is what?Somthing like 100 times bigger than Ireland.Lets try comparing like with like.