An intresting legal question

KennyCleveland

Gentlemen,

Please accept my apology of sorts. My comments weren't meant to be insulting or inflammatory. Only thought provoking. I perch upon the very same soap box here in Ohio. And sadly often times find the same resistance. Our murder rate IS too high in the US. But it has nothing to do with guns. The people being murdered are being murder by people they would murder if they had the chance. I blame it on a lack of morality.

I do know the difference between the UK and IRE. The comparison was made because I thought it relevant. It was not made in ignorance. 3 of my 4 grandparents came to NY from Cork in 1915. I have visited Ireland three times in the last 10 years. It is a beautiful Island, a modern thoughtful and progressive nation that does a lot of things right, some things we should take example from here in the states. And I was always made to feel welcome. that said...

If busting your target pistols to bits before you toss your chompers in the efferdent helps you get a few winks then have at it lads. It just amazes me that so few of you realize how silly and pointless and in the long run (just like england) damaging this slippery slope you're enjoying is. not so much the policy or the law as your " the government will protect me no matter what" attitude. Is this typical of the male in Ireland? just curious. what are you going to do when Ahmadinejad's kids take over France and that bigger island to your left in say 10 or 20 years? And then start looking to kick the Emerald Isle in the crotch. Laugh if you want. But it could happen. Then what? Betchya start scrambling for some "offensive" weapons right quick. I love you guys I do and I mean no offense. I just wish I could get the big picture through to you.

Sorry if such talk is "NO NO" here. I do wonder why. Thought police? Is there anywhere that RTKBA CAN be discussed openly in your online nation? It doesn't matter, I'm done, you can feast upon my comments now. They will go undefended.

I'll leave you with this. If any of you ever find yourselves stateside I'd be happy to have you as my guest at my range.

My best to you,

Kenny in Cleveland

It wasn't me!

Why is it banned? Because the notion of a right to bear arms and the use of arms in personal protection roles is heavily frowned on here, and by plenty of shooters as well. It's been decided that the discussion of concepts so foreign to Irish law reflects badly on the legitimate use of sporting firearms and has no place in a forum dedicated to the legal sporting pursuits available to firearms owners here.

IRLConor

KennyCleveland wrote: »

What are you going to do when Ahmadinejad's kids take over France and that bigger island to your left in say 10 or 20 years? And then start looking to kick the Emerald Isle in the crotch. Laugh if you want. But it could happen. Then what? Betchya start scrambling for some "offensive" weapons right quick.

We have about 250,000 legally held firearms in civilian hands (I think - a figure like that has been thrown around here before). Throw in the army, the Gardai, patriotic common criminals (:eek:) and the remaining paramilitaries up north and you'll find that Ireland wouldn't be a pushover. Sure, we'd be easy to invade but it would be damn near impossible to control the country afterwards.

Either way, your average person in Ireland isn't afraid of the government or of invasion by other countries so you should probably chalk it up to "cultural differences".

RuggieBear

KennyCleveland Banned and offending posts deleted.

Bananaman

Folks, Folks, Folks,

Owning a firearm in the US is a right, owning a firearm in Ireland is a privilege. There is no point comparing them.

Gun crime in Ireland is not perpetrated with legally held firearms. In the states it quite frequently is. Again no point comparing them.

For these reasons handgun ownership in Ireland is far more stringent and controlled than is the US

BUT

it hinges on one simple fact - you can have a firearm - any firearm - for which you have a demonstrable use.

What generally happens is that a bit of good old cop-on or common sense is applied to what demonstrable use is. There is a not a single person in the island who has a demonstrable use for Barrett Light 50 (I will read with interest if someone ever does get one) We have had cases where people have taken the state to court in order to argue that they do have a demonstrable use - e.g. the recent success of Mr. B with his .375.

There are, of course, the cases where the local Gardai will not issue licenses for a number of reasons and I am sure that the majority of them are because they will do nothing in preference to doing the wrong thing. Again we have had cases where people have brought the Gardai to court to argue the case. e.g. our friend in Kerry with his Colt Python.

The thread has gone off topic with mentions of carrying firearms for personal protection and other such rubbish.

You are not allowed to have a handgun in Ireland for Personal Protection. End of discussion. It is irrelevant whether or not you think you need it - you are not allowed.

Carrying a firearm for the purposes of moving it from Point A to Point B, in a holster, whereas strictly it is allowed under the current legislation is a somewhat questionable thing to do.

Apply the old cop-on and common sense rule and think what happens if someone sees it peeking out from under your coat - the Gardai will get called and respond to a person wielding a firearm. That can go a number of ways but you can be pretty sure that the good outcomes all end up with you in a cell while it is straightened out. The bad outcomes have more serious consequences.

When you are issued a license for a firearm you accept a duty of care to see to it that that firearm does not get into the wrong hands - kids, criminals, mother in-law etc. There is no downside to taking the barrel with you. It simply means that there is no longer a firearm at either location. Therefore a firearm cannot end up in the wrong hands.

B'Man

Trojan911

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So anyone got any good ideas on this one??

Hi Grizzly,

What I used to do in London was shoulder my firearm concealed under my jacket when I was going to & from the range whether it be on the bus or my motorbike. I always carried my F.A.C with me. I never had any issues as I was never stopped by police.

In your case, if you are going to & from the range with a firearm concealed you should not encounter any problems if you are stopped as you will have your licence and a legitimate reason to be carrying. Some people may not even own a method of transport. If you are stopped & you feel a search may be about to be conducted then declare immediately your firearm & do not attempt to remove it until instructed.

What you could also do is contact the local Garda Barracks, through your F.O, & inform them of your movements & approximate times etc when you are attending & leaving the range, for ease of mind on your behalf. Your F.O could enter this information on PULSE.

As for staying overnight in a hotel without a safe, it is your responsibility to safeguard your firearm. Again prior to travelling to the location ring the locals for the area & take advice. Gardai will, in most cases, refuse to store your firearm for you.

If the hotel etc does have a safe then speak only to the manager to have it stored in his safe if possible & break down the firearm leaving the majority in the safe and the rest elsewhere.

Grizzly 45

There is a not a single person in the island who has a demonstrable use for Barrett Light 50 (I will read with interest if someone ever does get one)

Apprently somone down in the Kildare/Curragh area who is a civvie has an application in for one,and it is currently stuck in Donegal in adealer.As the Comissioner is definately thinking this one out. Or so the story goes.

expressway

RE: 50cal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laSRfJ8WgwQ

Sparks

Trojan911 wrote: »

In your case, if you are going to & from the range with a firearm concealed you should not encounter any problems if you are stopped

The law is not the same here as in the UK. As stated in detail above, you can't do this in Ireland.

Sparks

And on the RKBA thing, ahem:

The forum exists for discussion of the shooting sports (meaning all shooting sports, from international competition to backyard plinking and anything and everything in between) and sport shooting (meaning hunting, wildfowling, and so on).

It is not for the discussion of the use of firearms in self-defence, nor for discussions about the "right to keep and bear arms" (usually referred to as RKBA) as found in other countries. There are many other forums on the net which cater to those topics; we suggest Cybershooters in the UK or The High Road in the US for those who wish to discuss these topics.

There are, however, precious few forums on the net that cater to the actual sport of shooting and we wish this forum to be among that number. Therefore all discussions on self-defence and RKBA are Off-Topic. Those starting or partaking in such discussions will be warned; if posters continue to engage in them, the offending posts may be edited or deleted and the posters temporarily or permanently banned from the forum.

Vegeta

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Thirdly,read the posting rules here.RTKBA and self defence are no no topics.

as already pointed out

V Bull

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Barrett Light 50. Apprently somone down in the Kildare/Curragh area who is a civvie has an application in for one,and it is currently stuck in Donegal in adealer.As the Comissioner is definately thinking this one out. Or so the story goes.

Who is the Firearms Dealer and how did he get a licence to import a Barrett .50.????

I'd say this is a load of BULL SH-one-T...................:cool:

Grizzly 45

Cant help you out on that pertinent info V Bull.As I said or so the story goes...However I wouldnt dismiss it out of hand either.There is always exceptions to the rule.And God alone knows what has been liscensed here recently.A sympathetic Super,a use of an army rifle range,....???

Sikamick

I'd say this is a load of BULL SH-one-T...................:cool:[/QUOTE]

V Bull wrote: »

Who is the Firearms Dealer and how did he get a licence to import a Barrett .50.????

I'd say this is a load of BULL SH-one-T...................:cool:

_________________________________________________________________

I think your right V Bull , do you have to have a Firearms license first before you get an importation license.

Is someone telling porky's or maybe wild-bore stories, is Ivan about.

Grizzly 45

Sethur wrote: »

Originally Posted by Grizzly 45
Barrett Light 50. Apprently somone down in the Kildare/Curragh area who is a civvie has an application in for one,and it is currently stuck in Donegal in adealer.As the Comissioner is definately thinking this one out. Or so the story goes.

What part of the dealer is it stuck in.

Wise Guy Eh???But mea culpa.:D:D:D

Trojan911

Sparks wrote: »

The law is not the same here as in the UK. As stated in detail above, you can't do this in Ireland.

If you are referring to your post #19 then there is no intent to cause any of the said within that paragraph. The holder is going to the range. I don't see an issue.

Also to add, when you are holstering your firearm to travel to the range ensure the magazine is out & empty & ammunition is elsewhere on your person.

Grizzly 45

www.centre-of-mass.com

A variety of safes for the car or hotel room,etc. $30 up to $300 for a bio security lock safe.Think this is what the DOJ/Gardai are alluding to when they are on about safes for transporting in your car in upcoming legislation.At current USD prices...well worth having.And sorts the carrying in a public place issue as well.

Double-Alpha

Trojan911 wrote: »

If you are referring to your post #19 then there is no intent to cause any of the said within that paragraph. The holder is going to the range. I don't see an issue.

Also to add, when you are holstering your firearm to travel to the range ensure the magazine is out & empty & ammunition is elsewhere on your person.

You may not see an issue, but I know for a fact that if you arrive at the MNSCI with a holstered firearm you will be sent off home with yourself, club rule,

When arriving at this firing range, your pistol must be in a carry case, gun glove or in a range bag along with your holster and rig, ammunition should be carried in a separate bag / container. You will not arrive at this club wearing your rig, or have a pistol in it. All mags must be unloaded. Cross draw, drop and shoulder holsters are forbidden for safety & PC reasons, this is a target shooting club. No military dress allowed unless you are a serving member of the Defence Forces or Garda and representing same, proof will be required in advance, checked and confirmed. Only shooters who are cleared to shoot, or on the firing line, may have their pistol in their holster.

V Bull

Sikamick wrote: »

I'd say this is a load of BULL SH-one-T...................:cool:

_________________________________________________________________

I think your right V Bull , do you have to have a Firearms license first before you get an importation license.[/QUOTE]

No, not necessarily, the Firearms Dealer usually gets an importation licence first for the firearm, excld the USA, in the meantime or at the sametime you apply for your Firearms Certificate for said firearm. I think that's how it goes..........open to alot of correction here.

Poor Ivan.........give him a break...........:D:D:D

V Bull

Double-Alpha wrote: »

You may not see an issue, but I know for a fact that if you arrive at the MNSCI with a holstered firearm you will be sent off home with yourself, club rule,

Yep, Double Alpha, I have seen it happen in the MNSCI on more than one occasion, proper order, good club rule, I agree 100%........

Sparks

Trojan911 wrote: »

If you are referring to your post #19 then there is no intent to cause any of the said within that paragraph. The holder is going to the range. I don't see an issue.

The point is that it's not you that gets to decide on intent. According to the 1990 Act (and the CJA did not change this):

if ... the court (or the jury as the case may be) thinks it reasonable to do so, it may regard possession of the article as sufficient evidence of intent

On top of which, you'd be hard pressed to prove that your carrying a pistol in a shoulder holster was not a breach of the preconditions of your licence (namely, that you having the licence would not risk disturbing the peace).
You'd also be hard pressed to prove that it qualified as secure storage - you get mugged by a gang of teenagers and now they're a gang of teenagers with a gun. The events of the Monday night should suffice to prove that this is not a far-fetched scenario, what with half of Fingal apparently in flames, while in the heart of Dublin, people are losing fingers, let alone the contents of their jacket pockets, during muggings.

Trojan911

Sparks wrote: »

The point is that it's not you that gets to decide on intent. According to the 1990 Act (and the CJA did not change this):

I accept the onus is on you to prove otherwise, however, if for instance, I am on my way to my local range & it involves a bus ride because I do not have any other means of transport, I shoulder holster my firearm (concealed), my F.A.C in pocket & head to the range & I am stopped for whatever reason, I do not see nor can I envisage a prosecution ensuing as I am going about my lawful business & possessing a firearm legally.

Show me where I cannot do this. The act you pointed out is designed for the criminal types who are stopped on their way to a blagging, who will not have a F.A.C & will more than likely be in a stolen vehicle.

Ideally, one would have the firearm consealed in a bag or floppy briefcase of some sort broken up in the event of a mugging/robbery person.

So, I head into Cork City to trade in my shotgun in a shop located in the middle of Patrick Street (which there is). My parking is a ten minute walk to the shop, my shotgun is in a carrycase, what is the difference?

The difference is my shotgun is more noticable. A concealed handgun is not. I'm going to draw more attention to myself with the shotgun.

Sparks wrote: »

On top of which, you'd be hard pressed to prove that your carrying a pistol in a shoulder holster was not a breach of the preconditions of your licence (namely, that you having the licence would not risk disturbing the peace).

Not being a pistol holder here I don't know the licence conditions. I do not see that a breach of the peace can occur if the holder is has it concealed & on the way to the range to do just that.

Now if the holder was to finish up his/her shoot & then head to the pub for a bevvy or two & start showing it off to friends then, yes, others who notice this may be alarmed by this behaviour & call in the Gardai & rightly so too.

Sparks wrote: »

You'd also be hard pressed to prove that it qualified as secure storage - you get mugged by a gang of teenagers and now they're a gang of teenagers with a gun. The events of the Monday night should suffice to prove that this is not a far-fetched scenario, what with half of Fingal apparently in flames, while in the heart of Dublin, people are losing fingers, let alone the contents of their jacket pockets, during muggings.

Well, thats Dublin for you... Our Nations Capitol.... Remind me again why I chose to relocate to Cork when I moved back from London.... Oh yes.....

Sparks

Trojan911 wrote: »

I accept the onus is on you to prove otherwise

I don't really think that that's up for debate

however, if for instance, I am on my way to my local range & it involves a bus ride because I do not have any other means of transport, I shoulder holster my firearm (concealed), my F.A.C in pocket & head to the range & I am stopped for whatever reason, I do not see nor can I envisage a prosecution ensuing as I am going about my lawful business & possessing a firearm legally.

Except that you're not. Well, not in the ROI anyway, because you'll be arguably in breach of the conditions of your certificate, thus rendering it void (by being a potential disturbance of the peace as well as a potential danger to the public by not providing secure storage for the firearm); you'll also be in direct contravention of the Road Traffic (Public Service Vehicles) Regulations, 1963 (SI 191/1963).

18. (1) Subject to sub-article (2) of this article, a person shall not cause or permit any highly inflammable, dangerous or offensive article to be carried in a public service vehicle.

(And firearms are mentioned in subsection 2 as an exception for the Gardai or Army, not civilians). Or, loosely translated, don't bring your gun on the bus or in a taxi (trains I'm not sure about).

The act you pointed out is designed for the criminal types who are stopped on their way to a blagging

Show me the difference in the eyes of the court between a "criminal type" and someone breaking one law outright, and arguably breaking several more (Arthur Cox might be able to make the case that you're only stretching them to the creaking point, but I think you're probably sunk the moment you walk in the door of most District Courts, they tend not to accept the argument that a form whose wording is not in the Act can outweight an Act.

who will not have a F.A.C & will more than likely be in a stolen vehicle

I take it that the lesson you didn't learn from Annabel's Nightclub murder case was that there is not really any such thing as a criminal type, just criminals?

So, I head into Cork City to trade in my shotgun in a shop located in the middle of Patrick Street (which there is). My parking is a ten minute walk to the shop, my shotgun is in a carrycase, what is the difference?

The difference is that your shotgun is not a concealed weapon, and it's not in a readily accessible location, and since it's broken into component parts in the case, any Garda could see it's not loaded - whereas if you walk onto any range in this country with a pistol in a holster, they'll treat it as though it was loaded with the safety off (the ones who know anything about firearms, at any rate).

I do not see that a breach of the peace can occur if the holder is has it concealed & on the way to the range to do just that.

I accept you don't see that you would be about to breach the peace; but what if someone spots the holster? Not to mention the bye-law against carrying it on the bus I've mentioned above.

Well, thats Dublin for you... Our Nations Capitol.... Remind me again why I chose to relocate to Cork when I moved back from London.... Oh yes.....

Because even Cork has better football?
(And personally, I abandon the inner city and leg it for the countryside on days like that, for just that reason).

Trojan911

Double-Alpha wrote: »

You may not see an issue, but I know for a fact that if you arrive at the MNSCI with a holstered firearm you will be sent off home with yourself, club rule,

Club rules are just that. The question posed here is wheter you can lawfully shoulder a consealed handgun to & from a range on a public highway/transport. In the case of this particuler club it would be advised to conseal your handgun by other means appropriate. Owning a car is not in the criteria for a handgun application.

Sparks

It's not exactly an ill-thought-out club rule; it comes from the first rule of gun safety. If someone shows up on the range with a firearm with a closed breech/bolt/action/etc, then noone else can see if the firearm is loaded or not and must treat it as loaded. If that someone shows up with a firearm in that condition to a range with people on it, they are demonstrating in no uncertain terms that they are either (a) uninterested in the safety of those people or (b) ignorant of the threat their actions pose. Either way, it's not good and either way, they should be asked to leave.

Trojan911

I cannot open your link, nor find it in the statute book. Can you send another link?

Irrespective of whether one can or cannot bring a concealed firearm onto a bus etc the question is still out there.

I say there is no issue if you are going to & from the range with a consealed firearm & the criteria that goes with it.

As for the club rule, I agree with it. Safety is paramount.

Oh, and as for football. I have no interest in the sport whatsoever, however, I am off to Manchester on friday for a Man U game on Sunday cos the ticket is free & it is a jolly with the boys for the weekend..... I'll suffer the 90 minutes...

Grizzly 45

[You'd also be hard pressed to prove that it qualified as secure storage - you get mugged by a gang of teenagers and now they're a gang of teenagers with a gun. The events of the Monday night should suffice to prove that this is not a far-fetched scenario, what with half of Fingal apparently in flames, while in the heart of Dublin, people are losing fingers, let alone the contents of their jacket pockets, during muggings.[/quote]

Hmm,I would love to seewhat the reaction of said teen gang would be if you were reaching for your wallet to give it to them and you pulled out a 45,loaded or unloaded or whatever and stuck it in one of the little Sh"ts face who fancied himself as leader.:D:D ....But I wont dwell on such un PC thoughts.But why do I see this happening one day here???

Sparks

Trojan911 wrote: »

I cannot open your link, nor find it in the statute book. Can you send another link?

Not sure why that link wouldn't work, but it's from the irishstatutebook.ie site; try again shortly, or check the google cache.

Irrespective of whether one can or cannot bring a concealed firearm onto a bus etc the question is still out there.

With respect, it is not, for the reasons outlined above.

Oh, and as for football. I have no interest in the sport whatsoever, however, I am off to Manchester on friday for a Man U game on Sunday cos the ticket is free & it is a jolly with the boys for the weekend..... I'll suffer the 90 minutes...

Gah. That's not football that's soccer. It's a game for girly-men

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Hmm,I would love to seewhat the reaction of said teen gang would be if you were reaching for your wallet to give it to them and you pulled out a ............

That's not a very appropriate comment for a sports forum Grizzly.

Grizzly 45

Maybe not...But thats what alot of people feel.Sports firearms or not.Maybe we can get a new shooting sport going .Chav shooting.:D
Toung firmly in cheek rrpc.Dont get all PC police on us now.