Gardaí Bag Searching Powers

Gavin "shels"

I'm aware that I can't seek legal advice on here, but I was wondering if someone could point me in the right field to what a Garda's search powers are when searching a bag within a football stadium without permission.


If this counteracts the rules of the forum I apologise in advance.

dessierb

They could be using the misuse of drugs act, the Public order act section 21 the offences against the state act and a few more. It all depends on what the Garda had in mind at the time of the search. ie. suspicion. But the main thing is that there is loads of powers the Gardai can use.

Gavin "shels"

So it's not really the same principle as the 3a Garda Stop, Question and Search Powers? They don't need permission?

dessierb

It all depends on the situation. Was the bag left unattended or in your posession. Did the garda speak to you first and outline what he/she was going to do. Need all the info to give you a proper answer.

Gavin "shels"

Well it wasn't my bag, but the bags weren't left unattended (they were right between the owners). No Garda said anything to anyone merely just picked up the bags brought them over to the Garda car and searched them in the present of the repective owners.

dessierb

Yea looks ok from what you saw. Gardai allowed to search person and or property at a public event under a range of powers. The fact it was done in the company of the owner sures that up. God i should have been a guard!

Sully

Purley discussion here but I thought the Gardai could really only use that Drugs Act and had to have good reason to use it and must state they are searching you within it.

Also, on private ground would a warrent not be required? Unlike public areas..

dessierb

1. If they did use the Misuse of Drugs Act they would inform the person being searched the reason for the search.
2. Football Stadium hardly private property.
3 Me thinks they they were using other powers. ie. Public order act.

Gavin "shels"

dessierb wrote: »

1. If they did use the Misuse of Drugs Act they would inform the person being searched the reason for the search.
2. Football Stadium hardly private property.
3 Me thinks they they were using other powers. ie. Public order act.

A football ground is private property afaik.

Anyway thanks for the help dessie.;)

johnfás

I work as a Steward for the IRFU at international and provincial matches (gets me in free ). Both us stewards and the Gardaí at the matches have full powers of searches of property within the ground. It is part of the terms and conditions attached to one's entry that they accept the regulations. This is probably also the case in the sports ground that you are referring to.

Gavin "shels"

Under the FAI it's different, stewards only have the right to search you on entering the stadium and inside the stadium need permission. Gardai can do what they want afaik.:rolleyes:

Sully

Sully wrote: »

Also, on private ground would a warrent not be required? Unlike public areas..

If the Garda wished to search your home or the contents of some container within the grounds of your home or search you within the grounds of your home they would require a warrant pursuant to the constitutional guarantee of the inviolability of the dwelling.

In public areas the Gardai are empowered in numerous ways to search you and any containers you may carry and it is doubtful a Garda would be unable to come up with a decent excuse in almost any situation to conduct a search.

cushtac

Gavin shels wrote: »

A football ground is private property afaik.

The Public Order Act defines a public place as—

( a ) any highway,

( b ) any outdoor area to which at the material time members of the public have or are permitted to have access, whether as of right or as a trespasser or otherwise, and which is used for public recreational purposes,

( c ) any cemetery or churchyard,

( d ) any premises or other place to which at the material time members of the public have or are permitted to have access, whether as of right or by express or implied permission, or whether on payment or otherwise, and

( e ) any train, vessel or vehicle used for the carriage of persons for reward.


So a football ground would seem to be classed as such.

Tom Young

cushtac wrote: »

The Public Order Act defines a public place as—

( a ) any highway,

( b ) any outdoor area to which at the material time members of the public have or are permitted to have access, whether as of right or as a trespasser or otherwise, and which is used for public recreational purposes,

( c ) any cemetery or churchyard,

( d ) any premises or other place to which at the material time members of the public have or are permitted to have access, whether as of right or by express or implied permission, or whether on payment or otherwise, and

( e ) any train, vessel or vehicle used for the carriage of persons for reward.


So a football ground would seem to be classed as such.

I think a lot of hairs could be split on this one, depending on access licences etc.

Overheal

under (e) "or whether on payment or otherwise" so a stadium that opens its doors to the paying public would fall under it methinks.

johnnyskeleton

Overheal wrote: »

under (e) "or whether on payment or otherwise" so a stadium that opens its doors to the paying public would fall under it methinks.

1. Any property not owned by the government is private property. A stadium owned by a club is private property.
2. The definition of public place in the public order act only applies to the public order act (although it is helpful).
3. If a garda is invited onto a premises then he is entitled to be there and requires no warrant etc. This invitation can be inferred by, for example, being let through the barriers without question by the stadium staff.

As regards the OP, if they have permission to search the bag then they can. If they do not then they must invoke a specific legal power for the search and must also inform the owner of the bag of same. Most statutory powers have safeguards i.e. the garda must form a reasonable suspicion etc. A failure to properly invoke (i.e. by not complying with the safeguards) and / or a failure to inform the owner of said power will result in the search being illegal, and any evidence gained from this inadmissable in court.

NUTLEY BOY

Deleted User wrote: »

If the Garda wished to search your home or the contents of some container within the grounds of your home or search you within the grounds of your home they would require a warrant pursuant to the constitutional guarantee of the inviolability of the dwelling.
.

Interesting, but I am not sure that this is an absolute position.

Two points occur to me ;

1. Are there not circumstances where Gardai may enter a dwelling with no warrant and not fall foul of Article 40 ? For example, if they had just cause to believe that a crime was actually being committed right now at that premises.

2. Assuming valid authority to enter without warrant as described above what powers do the Gardai actually have once they effect entry and how far can they go ?

I would be curious about point 2 above when you consider what happens in those cases where entry is effected under power of warrant !!

Look at the Judge Curtin case - valid warrant / defective execution = permanently excluded evidence.

Look at one of the Club Annabel defendant whose house was entered under the authority of a search warrant. I think that the search was specifically for a distinctive pair of shoes. When they were located the "suspect" was then arrested in the house on suspicion of murder. That seems to have been outside the authority of the warrant as far as I know and the conviction got binned by the CCA with no retrial.

Victor

They were looking for missiles and/or other dangerous objects and/or alcohol and/or other intoxicating substances.

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

1. Are there not circumstances where Gardai may enter a dwelling with no warrant and not fall foul of Article 40 ? For example, if they had just cause to believe that a crime was actually being committed right now at that premises.

He can enter, but the Garda would have to have very strong grounds to believe a serious crime was going to be committed before he would be able to get a warrant. He can't do it if he supects you don't have a TV licence.

NUTLEY BOY

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

1. Are there not circumstances where Gardai may enter a dwelling with no warrant and not fall foul of Article 40 ? For example, if they had just cause to believe that a crime was actually being committed right now at that premises.

Of course if a Garda hears a gunshot/witnesses a man running after his wife with an axe through the front garden, etc they can enter under a number of Garda powers. The point was that a Garda cannot enter onto your property to conduct a search, even with a very strong suspicion, without a warrant. Even to intervene in a crime Gardai must be careful. A drunk driver who had parked in her driveway and had a Garda open the door of her car to gain a breath test was held that the breath test was illegally gained as the Garda had no warrant to enter her property.

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

2. Assuming valid authority to enter without warrant as described above what powers do the Gardai actually have once they effect entry and how far can they go ?

You cannot make that assumption, as it is incorrect. However, Gardai must obey the terms of a warrant to the letter or any evidence gained will be inadmissable.

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Look at the Judge Curtin case - valid warrant / defective execution = permanently excluded evidence.

Look at one of the Club Annabel defendant whose house was entered under the authority of a search warrant. I think that the search was specifically for a distinctive pair of shoes. When they were located the "suspect" was then arrested in the house on suspicion of murder. That seems to have been outside the authority of the warrant as far as I know and the conviction got binned by the CCA with no retrial.

QED.

johnnyskeleton

Deleted User wrote: »

The point was that a Garda cannot enter onto your property to conduct a search, even with a very strong suspicion, without a warrant.

They can if they reasonably believe that evidence would be destroyed (mentioned in O'Brien, if I remember correctly).

Boston

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Look at one of the Club Annabel defendant whose house was entered under the authority of a search warrant. I think that the search was specifically for a distinctive pair of shoes. When they were located the "suspect" was then arrested in the house on suspicion of murder. That seems to have been outside the authority of the warrant as far as I know and the conviction got binned by the CCA with no retrial.

I may be missing something, but what was the problem.

Victor

Deleted User wrote: »

A drunk driver who had parked in her driveway and had a Garda open the door of her car to gain a breath test was held that the breath test was illegally gained as the Garda had no warrant to enter her property.

That was changed quite some time ago (certainly for drink drive type situations), such that it is only the houses that is protected, not the grounds.

Hobart

Boston wrote: »

I may be missing something, but what was the problem.

The warrant was bad. Hence the Guards (in theory) were trespassing and without lawful authority to be on the premises. I don't know what the actual ruling was, but I seem to remember that the warrant was thrown out, but the arrest was allowed stand. AFAIK it went to appeal.