80 killed in Tibet, Chinese will be kept in the dark

jonny72

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7299212.stm

I'm not surprised, the Chinese said 10 died with their usual propaganda, when the toll is nearer to 80. The Chinese people will not even blink an eye, because a) they'll be fed utter lies, and b) they've been fed fake history about the region. Ask any Chinese person you know about Tibet, and ask them about Tianamen Square while you're at it.

gurramok

I wonder if those posters who defend state actions in killing of civilians will condemn what the Chinese have done and are doing in Tibet?

Thirdfox

jonny72 wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7299212.stm

I'm not surprised, the Chinese said 10 died with their usual propaganda, when the toll is nearer to 80. The Chinese people will not even blink an eye, because a) they'll be fed utter lies, and b) they've been fed fake history about the region. Ask any Chinese person you know about Tibet, and ask them about Tianamen Square while you're at it.

What history is that?

And they know about Tian An Men by the way (at least all the Chinese people that I've talked to during my year's study there).

Canonfan

A lot of us studied world history, no country is better than another.
Both Tibetan and Han Chinese culture are worth a lifetime of in-depth study. You cannot simply draw conclusions based on one-sided accounts. It is not the kind of dark age you hear from Western mainstream media. Yes the Communists did make terrible mistakes in the past.

Thirdfox

Canonfan wrote: »

A lot of us studied world history, no country is better than another.
Both Tibetan and Han Chinese culture are worth a lifetime of in-depth study. You cannot simply draw conclusions based on one-sided accounts. It is not the kind of dark age you hear from Western mainstream media. Yes the Communists did make terrible mistakes in the past.

No doubt - cultural revolution, Tiananmen and many others... but I wonder sometimes, what if the KMT had won the civil war and become an American backed "democratic" state would things have turned out better (especially in relation to the the Cold War etc.).

wes

Sad what the Chinese government is doing to the Tibetan people (as well as other ethnic minorities). Things can only get worse from here and we probably won't even know about it.

lostexpectation

did ya see dick roche is in china and says he hasn't brought up tibet in his meetings.

Kevster

Are the Chinese police supposed to just stand there while they get pelted with rocks?

I don't want to take a side in this issue because I don't know all of the facts - none of ye do (I'm assuming). It's better to delay judgement before you go criticising one side over the other. Sure, the Dalai Lama is using the western media, but does that make his side the 'good' side?

wes

Kevster wrote: »

Are the Chinese police supposed to just stand there while they get pelted with rocks?

I don't want to take a side in this issue because I don't know all of the facts - none of ye do (I'm assuming). It's better to delay judgement before you go criticising one side over the other. Sure, the Dalai Lama is using the western media, but does that make his side the 'good' side?

They could just end there occupation. See no rocks then. Even then, the rocks are hardly a bloody threat to the great and mighty PRC military.

Of course we don't know whats going on, due to the Chinese government tossing out foreign media. So, to me, that makes it look like there up to no good and don't want the News filled with pictures of dead Tibetan protesters.

Kevster

wes wrote: »

Of course we don't know whats going on, due to the Chinese government tossing out foreign media. So, to me, that makes it look like there up to no good and don't want the News filled with pictures of dead Tibetan protesters.

Up to no good, eh? Yes - perhaps - but that doesn't mean that 'good' nations aren't up to no good either. For example, were you aware that yesterday was the anniversary of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam - an event where the US army murdered around 500 unnarmed civilians? The US army - being the good people they are - attempted to cover it up.

If you hadn't heard about this, that's because no western media chose to cover the anniversary. I only heard about it while watching the Al Jazeera news channel.

Thirdfox

To be fair - I just finished reading the article from BBC news that talked about the My Lai massacre (apparently 3 villages were exterminated, not just one).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7298533.stm

That's why I really respect the BBC news as being a cut above the rest - it has shown an impressive ability to be quite objective in its reportage on every event (and why I'm worried by the fact that the Chinese government has decided to block it - block the trash that comes from Fox News, not a good news site like the BBC).

Just watched the Newsnight programme where they showed video clips of Tibetans armed with knives attacking Chinese people and monks burning down stores (apparently these videos weren't shown on the Chinese news channels for fear of the Chinese population asking the government to use harsher force against the rebels).

Kevster

I appreciate the BBC news service too. I used to watch Fox news and Sky news until I realised that they don't report everything; and what they do report is tainted with opinion.

The only news channels I watch now are Euronews, BBC News 24, and Al Jazeera.

wes

Kevster wrote: »

Up to no good, eh? Yes - perhaps - but that doesn't mean that 'good' nations aren't up to no good either. For example, were you aware that yesterday was the anniversary of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam - an event where the US army murdered around 500 unnarmed civilians? The US army - being the good people they are - attempted to cover it up.

If you hadn't heard about this, that's because no western media chose to cover the anniversary. I only heard about it while watching the Al Jazeera news channel.

I get my news from BBC, Sky and Al Jazeera (the website as I don't get it on my tv). I am no fan of American foreign policy and have made my opinion known on it before.

Regardless, what the US has done, does not excuse the PRC here at all. Bringing them into it isn't a defense at all. The PRC army are on the move and we may very well not know what they may do to the people of Tibet.

daithicarr

i think in this case it is very easy to determine who is the "good" guy .
The Tibetans don’t occupy any part of China illegally, they don’t operate detention and concentration camps, they don’t maintain a massive military and paramilitary force to suppress any dissent. all of these activities are carried out by the PRC not only on the Tibetans and other minorities but also on the Han majority.

when China took control of the Tibetan areas, there were some 6 million Tibetans (according to many sources except the Chinese) , today there are 5.7 to 6 million Tibetans , a population which has stagnated or declined despite having a large birthrate. this is at the same time when the population of china has expanded massively.

huge numbers of Tibetans have died due to Chinese occupation, the number ranging from 300,000 missing Tibetans by Chinese sources to over 1 million by Tibetan sources.

In addition over 7 million Han Chinese have been settled in Tibetan areas to decrease the chance of them braking away ( a policy followed in other ethnic minority areas)

The Chinese continue to detain and torture not only Tibetan clergy and lay people, but large numbers of other people who they see as a threat. executions and tortures of all types including rape are used to suppress dissent.

On the other hand, the Tibetans have rioted a bit, burnt some Chinese businesses, and attacked a hand full of Han Chinese who they see as invaders.

so while the Tibetans have committed some small amounts of violence, it does not compare to the slow but steady cultural genocide which the Tibetans are subject too.

SkepticOne

Kevster wrote: »

Up to no good, eh? Yes - perhaps - but that doesn't mean that 'good' nations aren't up to no good either.

By this logic, no nation can be criticised about anything because the US or some other western nation is guilty of some completely unrelated misconduct.

cabinteelytom

Ireland should make a principled objection to occupation, settlements and annexation and demand that independence be restored to the people of Tibet.
This would not be an infringement of neutrality-it would be neccessary solidarity with a threatened indigenous people. Free Tibet.

leincar

cabinteelytom wrote: »

Ireland should make a principled objection to occupation, settlements and annexation and demand that independence be restored to the people of Tibet.
This would not be an infringement of neutrality-it would be neccessary solidarity with a threatened indigenous people. Free Tibet.

Ireland principled ? Mmm Mmm. How novel an idea.

Anyway I was in China for a Week in early January and you NEVER mention the 3 Ts. Tiananmen, Taiwan and Tibet. Big no no's

I found Beijing a foul place and people seemed to have this 'Middle Kingdom' attitude that some people may have heard of.

If people feel aggrieved you can only hit China 1 way and its quite hard. Avoid buying their products. It can be done. I made a concious effort to buy European when I came back and so far have been caught out twice. A sat nav and garlic from Superquinn.

Glad to see a thread has started on China as I feel China is going to have a major influence and bearing on all our lives for the rest of this century. And I don't think its going to be for the better.

daithicarr

Ireland would never stand up to any country like China, the Goverment are completely spinless. they wont even check US rendition flights , stating that the americans assured us nothing bad was happening. must be the only country in western Europe who accept that at face value.

As long as there is money or the potential of money our goverment will smile politely and make appeasing sounds.

Even after the horrors of the holocaust were revelaed, our president sent official commiserations to germany on the death of hitler, and took in a Pitifully small hand full of Jewish holocaust survivours. thats not being neutral thats just being spineless

rowlandbrowner

problem is, when most people say “free Tibet”, they really mean a tibet ruled by a religious bureaucracy

BostonFenian

rowlandbrowner wrote: »

problem is, when most people say “free Tibet”, they really mean a tibet ruled by a religious bureaucracy

So? They should have the right to whichever form of government they choose to have, not one imposed upon them.

wes

rowlandbrowner wrote: »

problem is, when most people say “free Tibet”, they really mean a tibet ruled by a religious bureaucracy

They would have to try really hard to be worse than the current Communist regime, which is basically destroying Tibetan culture and colonized the country to the point where the Tibetans are out numbered by colonists. Basically the PRC is destroying Tibetan culture for all intents and purpose.

Also, who's to say that a free Tibet would end up with a religious government.

rowlandbrowner

BostonFenian wrote: »

So? They should have the right to whichever form of government they choose to have, not one imposed upon them.

The working people of Tibet did want to change the system of Government they had, so they joined with the PRC and removed the last crowd, it wasn't imposed.

wes wrote: »

Also, who's to say that a free Tibet would end up with a religious government.

The Free Tibet Movement and the exiled government.

daithicarr

rowlandbrowner wrote: »

The working people of Tibet did want to change the system of Government they had, so they joined with the PRC and removed the last crowd, it wasn't imposed.
.

oh yeah sure they did thats .why they resisted it, and rebelled against it on numerous occasions.and why the chinese maintain in the region of 250,000 troops. to make sure the evil Dali lama and his army of evil henchmen and terrorists dont overthrow the workers utopia of tibet.

Maybe that why they have a large news black out and stop foreigners from entering the area, to prevent us seeing what a truly egalitarian and prosperous society the PRC have built in tibet so those of us not lucky enough to live under the benign beijing regime will not become jealous and start emigrating to the region in search of a better life.

Raspberry

I think there is a lot of Western propaganda in circulation about China that exadurates things slightly. Chinese people are not denied their human rights. They are happy. I think the Western media throws out this propaganda because they don't like the Chinese government because it does very little to stop the production of counterfit and fake products. It may even be deeper than that and there may still be elements of the Capitalism vs Communism still in circulation. I think the real problem here is with us and the spin our media put on the Chinese government's dealings.

fly_agaric

rowlandbrowner wrote: »

The working people of Tibet did want to change the system of Government they had, so they joined with the PRC and removed the last crowd, it wasn't imposed.

I'm sure that they were so pleased to be included in Mao's "cultural revolution" as a little bonus also!

Raspberry wrote: »

II think the Western media throws out this propaganda because they don't like the Chinese government because it does very little to stop the production of counterfit and fake products.

Yes, that it....
Any stories that don't fawn over how "wonderful" China is are the result of bitterness over lost profits because of knock-off Prada handbags, dodgy dvds, and pirated M$ software!
It's all "propaganda" but never fear - Xinhua will tell us the truth even if the beeb will slander China because fake products are hitting western companies in the pocket!

Raspberry

fly_agaric wrote: »

Yes, that it....
Any stories that don't fawn over how "wonderful" China is are the result of bitterness over lost profits because of knock-off Prada handbags, dodgy dvds, and pirated M$ software!
It's all "propaganda" but never fear - Xinhua will tell us the truth even if the beeb will slander China because fake products are hitting western companies in the pocket!

I'm glad you agree with me.

gurramok

China is the biggest creditor to the US economy and probably a few other Western nations.

Thats why criticsm is mooted of China, both the US and China need each other economically, it's simple as that.

Raspberry

gurramok wrote: »

China is the biggest creditor to the US economy and probably a few other Western nations.

Thats why criticsm is mooted of China, both the US and China need each other economically, it's simple as that.

Conspiracy theories is that way man.

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gurramok

Raspberry wrote: »

Conspiracy theories is that way man.

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Not a conspiracy, everything that a govt has views on in international events is intriniscally linked to trade.
The arms trade is one example and Iraq in the past(oil) is another.

Ask yourself, why is criticism mooted of the brutal crackdown in Tibet by China?

I offered my explanation, what's yours other than 'Western Propaganda'?

fly_agaric

Raspberry wrote: »

Conspiracy theories is that way man.

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