80 killed in Tibet, Chinese will be kept in the dark

turgon

Hmmmm was not the reason the US invaded Iraq because
a) Supposed Nuclear weapons
and b) Saddam huisean being bold and killing lots of people?

Well seems chinas pretty much up to the same crack. But here is the point of US "Moral" policy - its only moral if their is economic advantage to invading a country.

IE America loses its nerve with China because China is Rich.

America is a farce.

GuanYin

turgon wrote: »

Well seems chinas pretty much up to the same crack.

How so? Can you show me the ways in which China's Government bears similarities to Hussien's Iraq?

But here is the point of US "Moral" policy - its only moral if their is economic advantage to invading a country.

IE America loses its nerve with China because China is Rich.

America is a farce.

I think you're in the wrong thread, talking about the wrong topic, quite probably in the wrong forum on the wrong website.

fly_agaric

carsonsunhao wrote: »

the protest against western media bias has been organised all arourd the world by oversea students and will be held in dublin as well on this coming saturday.

On a completely unrelated issue, it may be highly anti-democratic of me (+hypocritical given the subject matter of this thread) but I'm so f-ing sick of the world and its mother protesting about every issue under the sun in Dublin, clogging up the streets on a regular basis.

If the Dail moves to Cork or Galway would all the angry protesters follow it the way a dog chases a stick + give my head some peace?:)

Thirdfox

From what I understand the protestors will be at the GPO and under the Spire - they won't be blocking traffic (well maybe some pedestrians...)

fly_agaric

Thirdfox wrote: »

From what I understand the protestors will be at the GPO and under the Spire - they won't be blocking traffic (well maybe some pedestrians...)

okay I should have said footpaths, FOOTPATHS dammit - you knew what I meant! You really are such an anal bunch...:(
I really wish I was an "anti-China fly", could buzz my way from A to B above all the bustle on O'Connell St.

Thirdfox

My apologies I actually didn't know what you meant. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that someone meant exactly what they said would it?

As to being anal...law student here - we're taught to be like that

Thirdfox

Just as a point of interest - what do the people criticising China think about the fact that nearly every Chinese person (all that I've seen so far) has supported the Olympics and the action of the government?

By every Chinese I mean the people from within China and all the overseas Chinese - many of whom had little or no contact with Chinese Government views on things and can hardly be said to be influenced by them.

Do you really believe that we are simply brainwashed? Or that the Chinese government is so powerful as to be able to buy off everyone? Or that we genuinely believe what we say?

I really don't get it - people say things are terrible in China, Chinese people respond and say things are improving and then people either ignore them or say they are delusional. I believe it is an insult to the intelligence of Chinese people when you tell them that your country is *&^% - they know of the problems more than you do (and yes they do know about it - media freedom has improved too, obviously something that isn't reported on quite as often over here). The proponents of democracy will not listen to the Chinese voice - is this not hypocrisy?

This is something that has confused for me for some time now and I would appreciate if some of the anti-China posters can help me understand your views.

Did anyone see the Primetime programme on the issue tonight? Less bias certainly but I would have loved to go and discuss it live with them.

GuanYin

Its simple really. Great Empires have always had the "notion" of bringing civilisation and knowledge to the unwashed masses and barbarian hordes. The Chinese did it, the Romans did it, the English did it and now the Western world does it.

People talk about the American Empire, but the truth is, in terms of society, the mindset of "an empire" spans right over to Europe and into Africa and Asia.

China is the last great nation not to conform, different=bad. QED.

Thirdfox

Hmm I'm sure others won't see it like that - so I directly asking those people why they think the way they do.

Because I do not believe that they are the ignorant/stupid/empire-seeking (insert random derogatory remark) that right wing Chinese believe that all foreigners are. But there must still be a reason though.

Certainly there is some sense of a superiority complex being expressed by some people (in my opinion). Maybe they don't see it as such? I really want to understand why people feel the way they do.

And with all due respect PSI - I don't believe the answer will be that simple. I give people more credit than just wanting to exert influence and build empires around the world.

Recent events have really saddened me as to the state of global affairs. An idealist student's dreams might have been crushed - I certainly look at many things in a much more cynical manner now (which I believe is unfortunate but perhaps necessary).

Bubs101

Thirdfox wrote: »

Just as a point of interest - what do the people criticising China think about the fact that nearly every Chinese person (all that I've seen so far) has supported the Olympics and the action of the government?

By every Chinese I mean the people from within China and all the overseas Chinese - many of whom had little or no contact with Chinese Government views on things and can hardly be said to be influenced by them.

Do you really believe that we are simply brainwashed? Or that the Chinese government is so powerful as to be able to buy off everyone? Or that we genuinely believe what we say?

I really don't get it - people say things are terrible in China, Chinese people respond and say things are improving and then people either ignore them or say they are delusional. I believe it is an insult to the intelligence of Chinese people when you tell them that your country is *&^% - they know of the problems more than you do (and yes they do know about it - media freedom has improved too, obviously something that isn't reported on quite as often over here). The proponents of democracy will not listen to the Chinese voice - is this not hypocrisy?

This is something that has confused for me for some time now and I would appreciate if some of the anti-China posters can help me understand your views.

Did anyone see the Primetime programme on the issue tonight? Less bias certainly but I would have loved to go and discuss it live with them.

I think the same would happen to any country that was awarded the Olypmics. They'd ignore the negaitves and focus on the positives. For example, if Ireland was awarded the Olympics I'd be amazed to see any irishman criticize the Olympic Comitee's decision to give it to such a small country as national pride would take over any logical reasoning (such as Ireland is too small to hold an Olympics or our human rights record is too bad to hold an Olympics).

I also think most Chinese realise it's the best chance they have to show off to the world that they will have in decades. They're never going to get a World Cup in the forseeable future and the Olympics are the next best thing. Also think that some Chinese might see it as an oppurtunity to get one over on the Japanese considering how many major events they hold (Summer and Winter Olympics, World Cup). I also think that for the ones abroad might feel inclined to defend it because everyone around them is insulting their country. It'd be hard not to defend your country in such circumstances

carsonsunhao

well, I think we have made a common piont here which is'volence for whatever reason is not compatible with the values of the torch relay or the olympic spirit.' and hopefully, those pro-tibet people will give think to the USA law today in san francisico.






these looks to me are as same as what happened on the 14th of march in tibet

BigWilly

carsonsunhao wrote: »

well, I think we have made a common piont here which is'volence for whatever reason is not compatible with the values of the torch relay or the olympic spirit.' and hopefully, those pro-tibet people will give think to the USA law today in san francisico.






these to me are as same as what happened on the 14th march in tibet

Well in all fairness it would have been a bit discriminatory to NOT go for the torch then and instead target all the other athletes and skip her because she's disabled

For example, if Ireland was awarded the Olympics I'd be amazed to see any irishman criticize the Olympic Comitee's decision to give it to such a small country as national pride would take over any logical reasoning (such as Ireland is too small to hold an Olympics or our human rights record is too bad to hold an Olympics).

This point doesn't really make sense...Yeah, lets all go out and protest because...The host nation is a small country?
And our human rights record? Sure just last week didn't (The People's Republic of) Cork try to 'succeed from the union' so we shot 80 people and...oh wait.. See the difference?




Anyone else find it pretty ironic that the Chinese are actually giving out about OUR freedom to protest?

carsonsunhao

BigWilly wrote: »

Well in all fairness it would have been a bit discriminatory to NOT go for the torch then and instead target all the other athletes and skip her because she's disabled

well buddy, please skip the athlete behind her as well, cos he is blind. both are respectful. and the woman tourchbearers as well, if you are gentelman, so here are the guys left for you to rob. good luck. and also, you should read all 10 pages reply carefully before making a pointless coment.

Bubs101

BigWilly wrote: »

This point doesn't really make sense...Yeah, lets all go out and protest because...The host nation is a small country?
And our human rights record? Sure just last week didn't (The People's Republic of) Cork try to 'succeed from the union' so we shot 80 people and...oh wait.. See the difference?
?

You've misunderstood completely.What I meant was that if Ireland was,by some miracel, awarded the Olympics other nations would have a completely legitimate right to protest but I don't think we would care about the complaints because we'd focus on holdng the Olympics

.By our human rights record I meant China's and in complete fairness to China, they did show restrain in the latest Tibetanese riots but action had to be taken. Chinese shop owners were being burnt alive

Thirdfox

Bubs101 wrote: »

I think the same would happen to any country that was awarded the Olypmics. They'd ignore the negaitves and focus on the positives. For example, if Ireland was awarded the Olympics I'd be amazed to see any irishman criticize the Olympic Comitee's decision to give it to such a small country as national pride would take over any logical reasoning (such as Ireland is too small to hold an Olympics or our human rights record is too bad to hold an Olympics).

I also think most Chinese realise it's the best chance they have to show off to the world that they will have in decades. They're never going to get a World Cup in the forseeable future and the Olympics are the next best thing. Also think that some Chinese might see it as an oppurtunity to get one over on the Japanese considering how many major events they hold (Summer and Winter Olympics, World Cup). I also think that for the ones abroad might feel inclined to defend it because everyone around them is insulting their country. It'd be hard not to defend your country in such circumstances

Thanks for your input, I agree to a certain extent to what you are saying (that Chinese people are proud to have achieved this in relation to the games).

But what about Tibet? People support the government actions in restoring order to the city (the way they see it - any state would do the same if the rioting and arson had taken place - indeed weren't some people talking about sending the army into Limerick and internment?) On the Tibet issue (quite apart from Olympics and boycotts etc.) why do so many Chinese people here and back in China support the government?

Do our views not count or do people think we're misguided or barbaric or ignorant? I hope to have put across an image of reasonableness over the course of my posts, and I certainly do not consider myself misguided/barbaric/uncivilised etc. So why so much hate against the Chinese people? (And by attacking the Olympics I do not see it as an attack on the government but on the people of China - they are fully in support of the Olympics and action against it will most likely be seen as action against them. This will inevitably lead to a hardening of the view that foreigners should not involve themselves with internal affairs and have no right to criticise (which is a view that I do not support - dialogue is important in solving issues - boycotting is the arbitrary shutting down of communications). I work hard in China to put across the view that foreigners aren't just out to "get" China, that many people there understand the Chinese view. Unfortunately I see my hard work being undone by what's happening here.

As an Irish citizen I love my country (Ireland) but having a Chinese background I can empathise with how the Chinese can feel (whether rightly or wrongly). I was glad to hear on Primetime that our foreign affairs minister Dermot Ahern shares the same view that dialogue is what's needed.

Finally in relation to your post - I don't think anyone (including the government) has said that China is perfect. Indeed, there are many many problems - but it has come far in 30 years and is still progressing (contrary to what Amnesty says). People are not "ignoring" the negatives but rather angry that an event that should really be looking at the positives is being turned (by media or interest groups) into a constant attack on China and the Chinese people. The Chinese people have put on their best face in preparation for the games and this really is going to be seen as a slap to their (not only the government's) face. I really do not have much to add but I would like to emphasis that losing face in China is not something that is easily forgotten (rightly or wrongly) - this increasing bitter experience will not help to achieve what the West want and may achieve the opposite.

To end on a light-hearted note - Chinese men's football is embarrassingly bad (and yet they act like they're rockstars). Oh well - maybe in 100 years time eh?

SkepticOne

I don't think there's anyone on this thread calling the Chinese people barbaric. It is the government of the PRC that is coming under criticism.

Thirdfox

But the people support the government on this issue. Criticism directed at the Olympics in China will be taken to be criticism at the Chinese people. It may not be the intention but it is the effect...

Thirdfox

SkepticOne wrote: »

I don't think there's anyone on this thread calling the Chinese people barbaric. It is the government of the PRC that is coming under criticism.

Also I would really appreciate it if you could address my main question which was - what do people think of all the people who support the Olympics/government? Do you have an opinion of why people are thinking like that?

edit: To ensure I don't triple post here's a sample of what's happening in China right now.

You see

they see


How can they not be angry - if an Irish disabled person being pushed by a blind athlete was set upon by anyone no matter what cause they had I do not think many Irish people will be very sympathetic to their cause.

The international community has seriously misjudged the attitude the Chinese people during this episode. People (university students) are becoming more angry against perceived western bias (which I admit to have perceived too). Trying to bridge this increasing gap is becoming more and more difficult (no matter how hard I try).

The backlash against this (perceived) injustice will not help anyone in the short/medium or long run.

wangmuyuan

1. Let all the WHITEs living in US return their land back to local Indians.
2. Let all the WHITEs living in Australia return their land back to Maoris.
3. Let England and France give their oversea colonies back to the locals.
If any of these is possible, then we can go on this topic.

If you really have sufficient confidence with your own standpoint, why dont you play your critism towards these government?

Ask yourself, who fed you these information, who raised you up, who provided you so many books and tell you the "TRUTH".

NO GOVERNMENT stands on the BRIGHT side. It only operates for very few part of people. Like all the people in the world knew that US only targets Petroleum in IRAQ.

NO CHILD politics!!!!

SkepticOne

Thirdfox wrote: »

The international community has seriously misjudged the attitude the Chinese people during this episode. People (university students) are becoming more angry against perceived western bias (which I admit to have perceived too). Trying to bridge this increasing gap is becoming more and more difficult (no matter how hard I try).

But could it not also be said that the government of the PRC seriously misjudged the reaction of the world to its parading of the Olympic torch around the globe? I think it is likely that from here on in the torch relay will only occur within the host country.

Thirdfox

SkepticOne wrote: »

But could it not also be said that the government of the PRC seriously misjudged the reaction of the world to its parading of the Olympic torch around the globe? I think it is likely that from here on in the torch relay will only occur within the host country.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record I'll repeat:
"Also I would really appreciate it if you could address my main question which was - what do people think of all the people who support the Olympics/government? Do you have an opinion of why people are thinking like that?"

As for the torch relay itself - Was it not the norm set down by Sydney in recent times to go for the global torch relay? I daresay that if China had not followed Sydney and Athens in doing a torch relay the media would then be pointing out that China is scared of the protests it would attract from conducting one, that it would just remain safe behind its iron curtain where people eat each other for fun *last part might not be included...

I'm now in the process of writing up an article on this for our newspaper - all views are appreciated (of course I won't be quoting people off the internet but if people want to point out valuable resources I'll certainly take a good look). The main issues I'll be covering will probably be media bias, Olympic boycott and Tibet.

GuanYin

With due respect Thirdfox, this is not an information gathering media for you, so please take your input/survey via PM and not in this forum.

Thirdfox

Okay I'll just ask it generally because I'm interested in the answer - I only started considering the article today and had asked this question already. I won't be using anything said here for my article (if it even goes ahead - which isn't confirmed yet).

SkepticOne

Thirdfox wrote: »

Also I would really appreciate it if you could address my main question which was - what do people think of all the people who support the Olympics/government? Do you have an opinion of why people are thinking like that?[/IMG]

I respect people's right to hold whatever views they wish and their right to express those views. It is their own business why they might choose to to think in a certain way.

justfortherecor

For those of you wanting to gain an insight into what life in Tibet was like before 1949, Dan Cruickshank of the BBC did a great documentary on it. Its still available on BBC iplayer for the next 12 hours (but can be downloaded as well) and make for very interesting viewing.

The Lost World Of Tibet

Quite a unique and ancient culture.

RedPlanet

justfortherecor wrote: »

For those of you wanting to gain an insight into what life in Tibet was like before 1949, Dan Cruickshank of the BBC did a great documentary on it. Its still available on BBC iplayer for the next 12 hours (but can be downloaded as well) and make for very interesting viewing.

The Lost World Of Tibet

Quite a unique and ancient culture.

I'm getting a message that says it's only available in the UK.

justfortherecor

Crap sorry, forgot about that! (I'm actually living in the UK)

OK-Cancel-Apply

There was also a recent protest in Germany, by mainly Chinese students, highlighting the bias in the German media.

Have we learned nothing about the media after Iraq?? What about the slanted coverage of the 2006 Israel-Lebannon conflict?

Thirdfox

SkepticOne wrote: »

I respect people's right to hold whatever views they wish and their right to express those views. It is their own business why they might choose to to think in a certain way.

But the protests etc. aren't about respecting other people's views - it's trying to change the views of other people. A battle for the hearts and minds of the wider populace and of the Chinese people.

To succeed you need to ask why are people acting the way they are? I ask myself this about the free Tibet rioters and demonstrators and can think of reasons why I believe people are being misinformed about the debate.

But simply saying I respect your right to have a different view isn't going to solve the problem (which I believe is what everyone wants isn't it?) You have to tell people like me and millions if not billions why we are wrong and you are right. If we can work this problem out then we will have achieved something. Otherwise both sides are just getting more entrenched in demonising the other side and the possibility of resolving the issue becomes more and more remote.

So I'm not entirely happy with your answer - and I do not mean this in any type of antagonistic way - but I believe you are dodging the question again. Sure we have the right to have our own belief, but this belief is not conducive to want you want to achieve. So you have to change our beliefs and instead the protests are just hardening ordinary Chinese people's resolve not to be bullied by foreign countries anymore (in their view).

SkepticOne

Thirdfox wrote: »

But simply saying I respect your right to have a different view isn't going to solve the problem (which I believe is what everyone wants isn't it?) You have to tell people like me and millions if not billions why we are wrong and you are right.

Basically it is not for me to speculate why someone comes to some view on things. It is up to them to explain themselves if they want to bring others around to their cause. If they can't explain themselves (and I'm not saying this is the case), through peaceful protest and other channels then perhaps they need to re-examine their position.

For me this is not particular to the current China/Tibet/Olympics issue, it applies to anyone with a cause they want to promote.