80 killed in Tibet, Chinese will be kept in the dark

BelieveYourself

SkepticOne wrote: »

IThen we are criticised for not swallowing the PRC version whole.

Maybe someone criticised you for not swallowing the PRC version whole, but NOT me. I totally agree to send independent third point of view to Tibet (NOT RTE, it is already out). PRC government obviously knows much more than what we know and that’s why they don’t want a foreign journalists going to Tibet.


However, what EDANTO said is interesting.

edanto wrote: »

Google words like 'content analysis' 'media studies' and see what you can learn about the media.

He suggest me to answer why PRC government do Google 'content analysis' while he do ‘content analysis’ about ‘Stop focusing on isolated examples (e.g. anti-cnn.com)’. What he did is same as PRC government did. It really made me speechless.

edanto wrote: »

Stop focussing on isolated examples (e.g. anti-cnn.com) of where individual reporters/photograph captioners made mistakes.

Moreover, what if EDANTO’s topic is copied & pasted by ‘individual reporters/photograph captioners made mistakes.’[FONT=&#23435]？[/FONT]

fly_agaric

Thirdfox wrote:

it is important for people to realise that when we speak of cultural genocide what is the difference between it and globalisation/consumerism? Christmas is now celebrated in China (as a novelty consumer holiday) - if it replaces the Chinese New Year has a part of the Chinese culture been wiped out by foreign culture?

The element of choice?

If people choose to buy into this stuff and abandon their own traditions they do have to accept some of the blame even if it is new, bright and shiny and very aggressively and cleverly marketed.

Do you think we should we blame the US entirely for the death of our own traditions associated with events like Halloween, Christmas, Easter etc?

Should we blame it for slavish imitation of the stuff we see in US films/media etc? Or is it partly - even mostly our own fault?
Who is to blame, the junkie or the pusher or both?

Anyways, "Western" Consumerism (unlike free-"er" speech) seems to be one "evil" of the "West" the CCP is defintely not trying save the people of China from.

GuanYin

SkepticOne wrote: »

But that is the very subject of this thread. This thread is not about other aspects of china or the west. I think this has been the problem all along. People have been taking exception to specific criticism and mistaking it for a generalised attack on China's people and culture.

Actually, its easy to ignore the point, but the two are linked. It is easy to criticise anyone without asking why they behave the way they do. Often people, as you have, choose to ignore this or sweep it aside because it muddies their moral standpoint.

The PRC act the way they do for a reason. Part of that is that they want to protect their people (and themselves) from what they view is subversion of western society and culture. Its all very well debating their actions, but unless you look at the reasoning involved, you're limited to a yes or no debate.

SkepticOne

PSI wrote: »

The PRC act the way they do for a reason. Part of that is that they want to protect their people (and themselves) from what they view is subversion of western society and culture. Its all very well debating their actions, but unless you look at the reasoning involved, you're limited to a yes or no debate.

I don't think anyone is arguing that there's no logic to what the PRC are doing.

So what you are arguing is that China is justified in suppressing information from Tibet in order to preserve its culture from western consumerism?

SkepticOne

BelieveYourself wrote: »

Maybe someone criticised you for not swallowing the PRC version whole, but NOT me. I totally agree to send independent third point of view to Tibet (NOT RTE, it is already out). PRC government obviously knows much more than what we know and that’s why they don’t want a foreign journalists going to Tibet.

Apologies, I mistook you for someone else. Glad to hear you agree that third parties should be allowed to travel freely in Tibet and report back unhindered. I agree that the reason the PRC does not want this is because they know things we don't.

Pro C

fly_agaric wrote: »

The element of choice?

Do you think we should we blame the US entirely for the death of our own traditions associated with events like Halloween, Christmas, Easter etc?

Should we blame it for slavish imitation of the stuff we see in US films/media etc? Or is it partly - even mostly our own fault?
Who is to blame, the junkie or the pusher or both?

Anyways, "Western" Consumerism (unlike free-"er" speech) seems to be one "evil" of the "West" the CCP is defintely not trying save the people of China from.

Freedom of choice, exactly, united as a nation, actually vast majority of Chinese choose our country runs in our way, not the American way, not the west way, or maybe not your so-called democracy way. The socialist society prefers united together rather than the hero icon individuality.

The truth is that the American is trying hard to penetrate our barrier with their way of life, their way of living and their belief because their ambition to rule the world what should really be described as evil. The Chinese state feels responsible for protecting our culture before it distinguished, before it is too late.

In fact, the dynamic about diversity is looking at something new, widen your vision and loving the world, I am not a anti-globalist, but I reject losing our culture, therefore, if I am somehow influenced by the west, I would personally like my government putting measures on what I can access for long live of our thousands of year of culture and heritage.

If you as Irish have a choice, would you prefer the old days when you have something belong to yourselves, I say you would. Then we as Chinese should get our act together before it is too late.

GuanYin

SkepticOne wrote: »

I don't think anyone is arguing that there's no logic to what the PRC are doing.

So what you are arguing is that China is justified in suppressing information from Tibet in order to preserve its culture from western consumerism?

Skepticone. I'm going to make this very clear. Don't try fog of war with me. Don't put words in my mouth. I won't tolerate it (call it a perk of my position here) and you won't last long trying that with me.

I'm arguing that Tibet has ALWAYS, even under the Lama rule, a place secluded from media attention with information blackouts (you can look this up - it was actually due to a cross between the Lama's serfdom, CIA operations in Tibet and the proported holiness of the land) China's suppression of Tibet information is much in line with the Lama's own actions.
That said, I don't think it was justified by the Lama and I certainly don't think it is justified by the PRC.

That said, China have the great firewall for a reason. The reason may partly be what I stated above. I'd argue that it's their right as a nation to do this and as others here have verified, they like it that way.

SkepticOne

PSI wrote: »

[...]and I certainly don't think it is justified by the PRC.

Thanks. Then we are agreed. I too recognise that there are a whole range of cultural factors involved but I agree with you that they don't amount to a justification.

GuanYin

SkepticOne wrote: »

Thanks. Then we are agreed. I too recognise that there are a whole range of cultural factors involved but I agree with you that they don't amount to a justification.

No we're not agreed and if you misrepresent me again you will be banned. Thats your last warning. Try me.


I don't agree with their actions, but I understand their motives for doing so. They have every right in keeping the sanctity of their cultural beliefs and outlawing what they feel subverses that so long as the people aren't in revolt. They're not, so all is well. What I do feel is that they could be less harsh, I don't agree with the level of their censorship, but I don't disagree with their reasons for doing so.

edanto

PSI wrote: »

No we're not agreed and if you misrepresent me again you will be banned. Thats your last warning. Try me.

Even though you're not entirely agreed and Skeptic has yet to engage with your main point about China's cultural reasons for suppressing information, I think the two of you agree that the actions of the govt in this case are uncalled for.

PSI wrote:

That said, I don't think it was justified by the Lama and I certainly don't think it is justified by the PRC.

It is distracting to conflate the issue of China wishing to retain her culture and heritage with the actions of the government in locking down Lhasa and controlling the people there through fear.

http://www.tibetgov.net/en/prelease/2008/09B0408.html

With these orders in place it is very obvious that the authorities in Tibet intend to exercise quick summary trial without proper legal procedures and carry out executions. In fact out of over 100 monks from Ramoche , 70 monks have already been arrested on 07 April.

Due to very strict restriction on movements, Tibetan particularly in the monasteries are unable to get food supplies. Therefore, we also appeal for help to ensure that those confined in the monasteries where shortage of food is causing great suffering, and may cause death due to hunger are supplied with timely provision of food and other required needs. In fact, there has already been a death in Lhasa due to desperations from hunger.

edanto

Pro C wrote: »

If you as Irish have a choice, would you prefer the old days when you have something belong to yourselves, I say you would.

Would you now.

I wouldn't. No matter what you want to pick as the old days, be it the times that our parents were scrimping and saving to get a foothold or when our grandparents were walking to school (barefoot of course, having milked the cows in the rain before breakfast) or before then when we didn't have the right of self-determination... yeah, me I'd rather Ireland of 2008.

At the same time, I happen to agree with you completely about the hollowness of consumerist culture - I'm a fan of the writings of Kalle Lasn and other people that you might read on somewhere like adbusters.org

But as someone else pointed out - that is the only aspect of Western culture that China trumpets adopting, the free market and all the ills that come with it. Externalising environmental degradation, mass migration to crowded cities, increasing poverty at the lowest levels.

Something like a third of the people in China live on less than a dollar a day - and I don't know if that statistic is improving or not - but if they want to resist the American corporatist way of life, then that is done through legislation to control companies and not people.

The only point that I'm trying to hammer home is that the Chinese government is wrong to suppress the people living in the Tibetan region - that the journalists of the world should have access there and no culture that suppresses freedom of speech is acceptable to me.

That's what this thread is about, Chinese being kept in the dark with what's happening in Tibet.

SkepticOne

PSI wrote: »

I don't agree with their actions, but I understand their motives for doing so. They have every right in keeping the sanctity of their cultural beliefs and outlawing what they feel subverses that so long as the people aren't in revolt. They're not, so all is well. What I do feel is that they could be less harsh, I don't agree with the level of their censorship, but I don't disagree with their reasons for doing so.

The problem with this is that since the government of the PRC determines what information gets out and what does not get out of Tibet we have no idea what is actually happening there. We are not in a position to judge whether the government PRC is being harsh or otherwise. This is the problem when governments reserve the right to control what their populations (and in the case of Tibet the world) can know.

That is not to say that the Dalai Lama has a monopoly on truth either. I don't think anyone has been arguing that.

GuanYin

SkepticOne wrote: »

The problem with this is that since the government of the PRC determines what information gets out and what does not get out of Tibet we have no idea what is actually happening there. We are not in a position to judge whether the government PRC is being harsh or otherwise. This is the problem when governments reserve the right to control what their populations (and in the case of Tibet the world) can know.

That is not to say that the Dalai Lama has a monopoly on truth either. I don't think anyone has been arguing that.

Right, but apart from the rioting there has been no evidence of these untoward events.

Again, China isn't a dictatorship such as North Korea. Nothing is stopping people who don't agree with the PRC from leaving. And people do leave, but not as many as those who stay.

The actions of the exiles are those of a disgruntled and ousted politics-religious sect and their supporters. Their actions have at worst, been comparable to those of common murderers and terrorits. We KNOW the PRC has a strict policy on this sort of carry on.

The question then becomes, when did we become World Police? I'm not saying stand by and let genocide happen, but I'm saying that if the PRC are shutting up shop and we have no evidence of genocide, no exiles giving us videos or details of the PRC doing worse things to them then they are doing themselves, then what exactly is our role?

Do we make them open up so we can keep an eye on them? Surely that is the job of the United Nations (who incidently, don't recognise Tibet and never have)?

leninbenjamin

PSI wrote: »

I'm not saying stand by and let genocide happen, but I'm saying that if the PRC are shutting up shop and we have no evidence of genocide, no exiles giving us videos or details of the PRC doing worse things to them then they are doing themselves, then what exactly is our role?

when did anyone in this thread call China's actions in Tibet genocide? if that's not misrepresentation i dunno what is...

GuanYin

leninbenjamin wrote: »

when did anyone in this thread call China's actions in Tibet genocide? if that's not misrepresentation i dunno what is...

Hold on a second, I never accused anyone of saying genocide, that was hyberbole to make a point. BUT phrases like this:

SkepticOne wrote:

agree that the reason the PRC does not want this is because they know things we don't.

Suggests something untoward.

My point is, to what level are we justified in being World Police?

We're not being told everything? So what, so long as it ISN'T genocide or something a sbad, what again is our role and justification?

SkepticOne

PSI wrote: »

My point is, to what level are we justified in being World Police?

We are only discussing China's actions. We are not policing them. By we, I mean you, me and the others on this thread.

edanto

Discussing/Judging....all struggling with the same uncertainty and trying to make sense of it.

The single digit post count brigade have gone awfully quiet. Does that mean we'll have to put up with the same rubbish from another wave of them?

edanto

PSI wrote: »

The actions of the exiles are those of a disgruntled and ousted politics-religious sect and their supporters. Their actions have at worst, been comparable to those of common murderers and terrorists.

Can you back this up with a few links, or at least expand on what you're talking about please.

yawtin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5sOm-uQH9Y

Apparently Dalai will be in court in India this Friday

GuanYin

edanto wrote: »

Can you back this up with a few links, or at least expand on what you're talking about please.

Without dragging up the gazillion links of the anti-cnn style, I'll expand and say the instances reported (check google news search) of Han chinese being attacked, beaten, singled out, in one case burned alive in their shop premises (Wall Street Journal), by Tibetan exiles and their supporters across China. The sichzuan province being one of the worst cases.

Admittedly, some of these stories seem difficult to verify, but considering the pictorial evidence posted by others here, its hard to imagine that the Han Chinese are making this up.

pklq

Why did the Chinese government have a news and access blackout of the Tibet region during the protests? Please try and answer the questions we are posing instead of ignoring them and raising straw men.[/QUOTE]

Because there are 56 ethnic in china, Tibetan is only one of them.if the rest 55 demand same independence at same time,what would u think the situation then? and do u know that there is no death penalty against minority ethnic, they are allowed to have second child, and many more benefit than han ethnic.

oscarBravo

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