Grand Slam Sunday

jesus_thats_gre

Draw

Xavi6 wrote: »

So the best keepers always end up at the big clubs? Just like Taibi did. It doesn't always work as cut and dry as you make it with Shay Given being case in point. We all know he was the best keeper in the league for a number of consecutive seasons yet he never wanted to leave Newcastle. Merely playing for a top 4 club isn't the only benchmark by which a goalkeeper should be judged.

So, Taibi was **** when he played in England. What significance does this have as to the potential that he showed prior to being signed that made a club take a risk on him?

Yeah, we all know that we as Irish people considered the Irish goalkeeper to be the best in the league. He is a great player but am anything but wholey convinced.

It isn't the only benchmark. Stuff like number of goals conceeded or number of clean sheets in recent years are valid benchmarks though.

Melion

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

It isn't the only benchmark. Stuff like number of goals conceeded or number of clean sheets in recent years are valid benchmarks though.

Reina holds the most clean sheets and the least goals conceded but apparently that doesnt show his class.

ShoulderChip

Draw

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

It isn't the only benchmark. Stuff like number of goals conceeded or number of clean sheets in recent years are valid benchmarks though.

they are benchmarks of best overall defense, and overall team, a keeper is a small percentage of that.

good keepers should not be derived through stats but sense.

ShoulderChip

Draw

Melion wrote: »

Reina holds the most clean sheets and the least goals conceded but apparently that doesnt show his class.

I agree that that doesn't show his class.

it hints at it however.

not that i am remarking on his degree of "class"

Xavi6

Draw

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

So, Taibi was **** when he played in England. What significance does this has to the potential that he showed prior to being signed that made a club take a risk on him?

Well you said that all good keepers should get a chance to prove themselves at the highest level. My point is that there are many sh*t ones who also get the chance, same way there are great keepers who don't get the opportunity.

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Yeah, we all know that we as Irish people considered the Irish goalkeeper to be the best in the league. He is a great player but am anything but wholey convinced.

It wasn't Irish people who voted him onto the PFA Team of the Year more than once.

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

It isn't the only benchmark. Stuff like number of goals conceeded or number of clean sheets in recent years are valid benchmarks though.

Agreed. As is the quality of defence the keeper played behind.

Melion

But havent people given out saying Agger, Carra and Hyypia are rubbish defenders? Surely with such a shíte defence in front of him a poor keeper should have conceded more.

lordgoat

Draw

ShoulderChip wrote: »

its easy to get that poll right when its still up after the matches!!

+1 before the match began most the majority had liverpool to win and the other match to be a draw...

ShoulderChip

Draw

well if teams have been shooting at his net, yet

Xavi6

Draw

Melion wrote: »

But havent people given out saying Agger, Carra and Hyypia are rubbish defenders? Surely with such a shíte defence in front of him a poor keeper should have conceded more.

Well I don't agree with them either. Carragher and Agger are a top partnership and Skrtel is looking good too now. Arbeloa has been consistent as well this year.

Put it this way, Liverpool have a far better defence than the likes of West Ham.

Mr.Nice Guy

Draw

Xavi6 wrote: »

So the best keepers always end up at the big clubs? Just like Taibi did. It doesn't always work as cut and dry as you make it with Shay Given being case in point. We all know he was the best keeper in the league for a number of consecutive seasons yet he never wanted to leave Newcastle. Merely playing for a top 4 club isn't the only benchmark by which a goalkeeper should be judged.

Well said. Can't believe some of the rubbish on this thread. Shay Given has had to put up with an abomination of a defence for many seasons which makes the 'number of goals conceded', 'number of clean sheets' argument pointless.

As for the nonsense about "a keeper that is worthy of playing at the highest level but is playing at a mid table club...will be picked up", two words - Brad Friedel. Named best goalkeeper of 2003 and still performing consistently. I bet Liverpool strongly regret ditching him in favour of Westerveld.

Xavi6

Draw

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Well said. Can't believe some of the rubbish on this thread. Shay Given has had to put up with an abomination of a defence for many seasons which makes the 'number of goals conceded', 'number of clean sheets' argument pointless.

As for the nonsense about "a keeper that is worthy of playing at the highest level but is playing at a mid table club...will be picked up", two words - Brad Friedel. Named best goalkeeper of 2003 and still performing consistently. I bet Liverpool strongly regret ditching him in favour of Westerveld.

*Awaits the inevitable "Eh no we don't" response from 'pool fans.*

BaZmO*

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

players putting big performance in against 10 men for 60 mins at home is quite an achievement.

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Liverpool team were extremely poor and playing with 10 men for 60 mins.

60 mins you say? Hmmm...


And as for the keeper argument, the only way to judge how good a keeper is to judge him on his mistakes. You can't blame a keeper for letting in a 100 goals in a season if he has 4 Titus Brambles as his back 4 and likewise, you can't praise a keeper for not conceding any goals in a season when he has 4 John Terrys in front of him.

Mitch Connor

BaZmO* wrote: »

60 mins you say? Hmmm...

Half time was action packed - a tough 15 minutes.

LuckyLloyd

Draw

Reina is years off his peak. For the time he has been at Liverpool so far his overall standard of performance has been adequate to very good. He will get better, just as Freidal and James did, and it is difficult to say at this point in time just how good he will be when he is 31 - 36 (goalkeepers peak later).

Freidal and James developed into absolute beasts of athletes. One could argue that Freidal is the second best goalkeeper to have ever graced the premiership on account of his performances for Blackburn over the past five seasons. James should have seen more gametime for England over the past two / three years but the reputation and media tag of 'clamity' was not so easy to cast off despite his excellent form at City / Portsmouth.

The position is one that demands a lot of maturity, and experience counts for a hell of a lot. When we offloaded James and Freidal it was definitely the right decision each time. That they developed into the goalkeepers they are today is a direct product of the first team football they received elsewhere in different footballing environments. It is crucial to understand that playing for a top four side is a very different sort of goalkeeping challenge to playing for a midtable / relegation threatened team. Teams further down the table naturally concede more clear cut opportunities meaning that a goalkeeper spends less stretches of the game idle. This also serves to make him look like a hero and allows him to get away with more direct errors per year because the saves : mistake ratio is always going to be hugely in his favour. A large part of the battle playing for a Liverpool or a Chelsea will be maintaining focus and concentration so that you are good to go when play breaks down. And the defense may only break down once or twice a game against weaker opposition / in tight games vs top teams.

Freidal and James were goalkeepers with some good qualities when we offloaded them - but they weren't the complete package at the time we got rid of them. Reina is not the complete package now of course, but you can not simply discount the solidity and consistency he has shown across the whole of his Liverpool career thus far. He has been the most solid presence we have had between the sticks since Westerveld's 50 game stretch in goal (the axing of Westerveld was unbelievably harsh by the way).

Reina made a mistake on Sunday. So what. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. For a goalkeeper at his age and with his experience his error count is very, very low. He could be really, really good. And he'll definitely do for now.

Nalz

Draw

Apols if this is mentioned before in this thread, but does anybody think that Gallas and Toure have been nothing short of brutal past few weeks? Almunia must be gettin the rosery beeds out pre every match

Reina wasnt that poor against United. He's been very good lately, and apart from one or two CL performances and last years memorable Everton game he's been very very good

Mr Alan

United

-Maschs sending off was a joke.
-Granted he should not have gone to the ref cause everyone knows that Bennett is a joke and had a point to prove after getting a telling off over the Cole incident.
-The FA and media will make Masch a scape-goat for all this "respect campaign" they have started. Suits them better to make a mental little argie the scapegoat as opposed to Gerrard,Rooney,Terry,Cole etc.
-Liverpool need to grow a pair of balls in the PL, they took that defeat like a bunch of ****in arse-bandits tbh. Riise even swapped shirts with Rooney at the end and hugged him after the full time whistle. ****ing embarrasment. the fans hurt so much after a defeat like that, yet the players dont seem ****ing arsed. thats why its hard to be pissed off at masch, if all our players had the drive and passion he had, we'd be a different team.
-Where were you Steven? Where were you when Torres was having the ****ing ****e knocked out of him? Where were you when a 23 year old Argie at the club just over a year was the only person who would stick up for him and confront the ref about how shote he was performing?
-The Liverpool fans were excellent and the Torres tune (complete wit bouncing) sounded animal.
-My views on the Utd fans, i cant put here.
-ferguson-how much of a ****ing hypocrite are you? protection for Ronaldo? Yea, i'm sure your ****ing excellent centre halves, and anyone who got near him were not under order not to kick the ****e out of him. i dont mind it, its a mans game, but stop your ****ing crying when anyone dares go near your beloved little Ronaldo.

anyway, ****e weekend.

Nalz

Draw

Mr Alan wrote: »

-Maschs sending off was a joke.
-Granted he should not have gone to the ref cause everyone knows that Bennett is a joke and had a point to prove after getting a telling off over the Cole incident.
-The FA and media will make Masch a scape-goat for all this "respect campaign" they have started. Suits them better to make a mental little argie the scapegoat as opposed to Gerrard,Rooney,Terry,Cole etc.
-Liverpool need to grow a pair of balls in the PL, they took that defeat like a bunch of ****in arse-bandits tbh. Riise even swapped shirts with Rooney at the end and hugged him after the full time whistle. ****ing embarrasment. the fans hurt so much after a defeat like that, yet the players dont seem ****ing arsed. thats why its hard to be pissed off at masch, if all our players had the drive and passion he had, we'd be a different team.
-Where were you Steven? Where were you when Torres was having the ****ing ****e knocked out of him? Where were you when a 23 year old Argie at the club just over a year was the only person who would stick up for him and confront the ref about how shote he was performing?
-The Liverpool fans were excellent and the Torres tune (complete wit bouncing) sounded animal.
-My views on the Utd fans, i cant put here.
-ferguson-how much of a ****ing hypocrite are you? protection for Ronaldo? Yea, i'm sure your ****ing excellent centre halves, and anyone who got near him were not under order not to kick the ****e out of him. i dont mind it, its a mans game, but stop your ****ing crying when anyone dares go near your beloved little Ronaldo.

anyway, ****e weekend.

post of the week?

Mitch Connor

Mr Alan wrote: »

-Maschs sending off was a joke.
-Granted he should not have gone to the ref cause everyone knows that Bennett is a joke and had a point to prove after getting a telling off over the Cole incident.
-The FA and media will make Masch a scape-goat for all this "respect campaign" they have started. Suits them better to make a mental little argie the scapegoat as opposed to Gerrard,Rooney,Terry,Cole etc.
-Liverpool need to grow a pair of balls in the PL, they took that defeat like a bunch of ****in arse-bandits tbh. Riise even swapped shirts with Rooney at the end and hugged him after the full time whistle. ****ing embarrasment. the fans hurt so much after a defeat like that, yet the players dont seem ****ing arsed. thats why its hard to be pissed off at masch, if all our players had the drive and passion he had, we'd be a different team.
-Where were you Steven? Where were you when Torres was having the ****ing ****e knocked out of him? Where were you when a 23 year old Argie at the club just over a year was the only person who would stick up for him and confront the ref about how shote he was performing?
-The Liverpool fans were excellent and the Torres tune (complete wit bouncing) sounded animal.
-My views on the Utd fans, i cant put here.
-ferguson-how much of a ****ing hypocrite are you? protection for Ronaldo? Yea, i'm sure your ****ing excellent centre halves, and anyone who got near him were not under order not to kick the ****e out of him. i dont mind it, its a mans game, but stop your ****ing crying when anyone dares go near your beloved little Ronaldo.

anyway, ****e weekend.

Sure it's only a game.

LuckyLloyd

Draw

Tauren wrote: »

Sure it's only a game.

Seriously, on a soccer message board? To a guy who spends his weekends (and presumably a huge chunk of his freetime and money) going over to the UK to follow his club? You should get warned for trolling.

BaZmO*

Mr Alan wrote: »

-My views on the Utd fans, i cant put here.

Yeah that's right, Utd. fans "bad" Liverpool fans "good" :rolleyes:

Mr Alan wrote: »

-ferguson-how much of a ****ing hypocrite are you? protection for Ronaldo? Yea, i'm sure your ****ing excellent centre halves, and anyone who got near him were not under order not to kick the ****e out of him. i dont mind it, its a mans game, but stop your ****ing crying when anyone dares go near your beloved little Ronaldo.

Ah he's a great manager though eh!?

Mr Alan wrote: »

anyway, ****e weekend.

For Pool fans anyway!

NotWormBoy

Mr Alan wrote: »

Riise even swapped shirts with Rooney at the end and hugged him after the full time whistle. ****ing embarrasment. the fans hurt so much after a defeat like that, yet the players dont seem ****ing arsed.

You think he shouldn't have swapped shirts or hugged him? Why not?

Mr Alan

United

BaZmO* wrote: »

Yeah that's right, Utd. fans "bad" Liverpool fans "good" :rolleyes:

You have no idea wat you are talking about.

BaZmO* wrote: »

Ah he's a great manager though eh!?

Absolutely.

NotWormBoy wrote: »

You think he shouldn't have swapped shirts or hugged him? Why not?

Neither.

we just lost 3-0.

He came on as a late sub.

While we were being beaten on the pitch, he was laughing and joking on the side lines. He is ****e and has been for quite some time. Utd, as a club, afford us no respect. He should applaud the away fans and then **** off down the tunnel and hold his head in shame.

not ****ing swap jerseys with one of the fans most hated players and embrace him.

_blank_

Draw

Mr Alan wrote: »

Neither.

we just lost 3-0.

He came on as a late sub.

While we were being beaten on the pitch, he was laughing and joking on the side lines. He is ****e and has been for quite some time. Utd, as a club, afford us no respect. He should applaud the away fans and then **** off down the tunnel and hold his head in shame.

not ****ing swap jerseys with one of the fans most hated players and embrace him.

Totally agree 100%.

The players should be hurting just as much as the fans, if they aren't then they have no business being at the club.

Does he not realise what that game means to the fans? He's been a Liverpool player for long enough tbh.

BaZmO*

Mr Alan wrote: »

You have no idea wat you are talking about.

If that's the case well then that makes 2 of us.

Mitch Connor

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Seriously, on a soccer message board? To a guy who spends his weekends (and presumably a huge chunk of his freetime and money) going over to the UK to follow his club? You should get warned for trolling.

oh get off your high horse.

If a liverpool fan doesn't expect a bit of banter after a United victory they shouldn't be coming on here - and i think Alan knows my posting style well enough to know i am only having a bit of a laugh with him - hell he might even remember that 'its only a game' is my Number 1 most hated thing to hear after a defeat - i've said as much on here enough times previously.

Trolling.... how very precious.

astrofool

I said at the start of the season that if Liverpool don't win anything, Mr. Alan will explode, well it appears getting walloped by Manu has had the same effect.

Don't worry Alan, there's still the CL.

NotWormBoy

Mr Alan wrote: »

He came on as a late sub.

While we were being beaten on the pitch, he was laughing and joking on the side lines. He is ****e and has been for quite some time. Utd, as a club, afford us no respect. He should applaud the away fans and then **** off down the tunnel and hold his head in shame.

not ****ing swap jerseys with one of the fans most hated players and embrace him.

Most of that's fair enough, though I'd have to say that just because Utd show Liverpool no respect as a club isn't a reason not to lower yourself to their level.

I assume it'd be ok if Gerrard (generally speaking as he usually plays well with heart) swapped shirts with Rooney and embraced him?

Mr Alan

United

No that would piss me off no end. his little "scouse buddies" with rooney already pisses me off enough.

NotWormBoy

So players shouldn't be mates with their rivals? Even if they're serious rivals, like Utd and Liverpool players? Bit too far there, I feel.

_blank_

Draw

NotWormBoy wrote: »

So players shouldn't be mates with their rivals? Even if they're serious rivals, like Utd and Liverpool players? Bit too far there, I feel.

Not on the pitch.

There's nothing wrong with Stevie G, or JARiise going into the dressing room afterwards and swapping jersies, or having a chat or hugging or whatever.

Not on the pitch after losing so heavily to what are probably your main rivals.

Mitch Connor

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Well said. Can't believe some of the rubbish on this thread. Shay Given has had to put up with an abomination of a defence for many seasons which makes the 'number of goals conceded', 'number of clean sheets' argument pointless.

As for the nonsense about "a keeper that is worthy of playing at the highest level but is playing at a mid table club...will be picked up", two words - Brad Friedel. Named best goalkeeper of 2003 and still performing consistently. I bet Liverpool strongly regret ditching him in favour of Westerveld.

I am still not sure on Friedel.

Some goalkeepers can look fantastic in mid level sides - as they are constantly in the game. Friedel and, imo, Howard are currently prime examples of this. I would even consider putting James in there too.

The biggest challenge to a top keeper in a top side is maintaining concentration during a game in which they are likely to be spectators. This is where James and Freidel fell down at Liverpool, where Howard fell down at United. Tommy K is another, looks ropey for United but looked fantastic for West Brom before we signed him.

I'm honestly not sure about some of the keepers labeled as being th best, cause I am not sure their concentration and ability to be 100% sharp and ready to make that 1 all important save in a game is 'up there'

lordgoat

Draw

Someone need a box of Kleenex?

NotWormBoy

DesF wrote: »

Not on the pitch.

I'd personally go with "not on the pitch while playing".

Mitch Connor

Hang on - what lack of respect do United, as a club, show Liverpool.

I know the fans show little respect, and it is the same the other way from Liverpool fans, but I don't see where this accusation that United, as a club, show Liverpool no respect comes from.

Mr Alan

United

lordgoat wrote: »

Someone need a box of Kleenex?

why?
you have a Torres picture to give me?:o

NotWormBoy

Tauren wrote: »

Hang on - what lack of respect do United, as a club, show Liverpool.

I know the fans show little respect, and it is the same the other way from Liverpool fans, but I don't see where this accusation that United, as a club, show Liverpool no respect comes from.

Heh, I was wondering when someone would bring that up.

_blank_

Draw

Tauren wrote: »

Hang on - what lack of respect do United, as a club, show Liverpool.

I know the fans show little respect, and it is the same the other way from Liverpool fans, but I don't see where this accusation that United, as a club, show Liverpool no respect comes from.

Two Words.

Alex Ferguson.

_blank_

Draw

Mr Alan wrote: »

why?
you have a Torres picture to give me?:o

That is wrong on so many levels dude.

Mr Alan

United

Tauren wrote: »

Hang on - what lack of respect do United, as a club, show Liverpool.

Ferguson constantly belittles Liverpool is sly little ways, leaving them out of lists of potential winners of the CL in interviews etc

And dont get me started on Gary Neville (club captain)

Spud83

Draw

Tauren wrote: »

The biggest challenge to a top keeper in a top side is maintaining concentration during a game in which they are likely to be spectators. This is where James and Freidel fell down at Liverpool, where Howard fell down at United. Tommy K is another, looks ropey for United but looked fantastic for West Brom before we signed him.

In fairness to Tommy K he has never really let us down. I don’t remember him ever making a mistake that cost us a goal. (I don’t have a great memory though so I could be wrong) He does look ropey coming for crosses and controlling his box, some times his distribution isn't great either.

I don’t believe he will ever be first choice at Utd though.

horseflesh

Mr Alan wrote: »

-Maschs sending off was a joke.
-Granted he should not have gone to the ref cause everyone knows that Bennett is a joke and had a point to prove after getting a telling off over the Cole incident.
-The FA and media will make Masch a scape-goat for all this "respect campaign" they have started. Suits them better to make a mental little argie the scapegoat as opposed to Gerrard,Rooney,Terry,Cole etc.
-Liverpool need to grow a pair of balls in the PL, they took that defeat like a bunch of ****in arse-bandits tbh. Riise even swapped shirts with Rooney at the end and hugged him after the full time whistle. ****ing embarrasment. the fans hurt so much after a defeat like that, yet the players dont seem ****ing arsed. thats why its hard to be pissed off at masch, if all our players had the drive and passion he had, we'd be a different team.
-Where were you Steven? Where were you when Torres was having the ****ing ****e knocked out of him? Where were you when a 23 year old Argie at the club just over a year was the only person who would stick up for him and confront the ref about how shote he was performing?
-The Liverpool fans were excellent and the Torres tune (complete wit bouncing) sounded animal.
-My views on the Utd fans, i cant put here.
-ferguson-how much of a ****ing hypocrite are you? protection for Ronaldo? Yea, i'm sure your ****ing excellent centre halves, and anyone who got near him were not under order not to kick the ****e out of him. i dont mind it, its a mans game, but stop your ****ing crying when anyone dares go near your beloved little Ronaldo.

anyway, ****e weekend.

I'm not even a United fan, but that post is a trainwreck.
Mascherano should have been sent off, absolutely no question. Quite frankly any player who gives a referee the amount of abuse he clearly was deserves to go.
Torres having the ****e knocked out of him? Are you having a laugh? Little whinger didn't get a sniff, that's all his problem was. (lucky not to be sent off himself by the way)
Ferguson may be a hypocrite, but he's a professional hyprocrite; it's all part of his gameplan no doubt. Probably soon enough we'll get an "I'd love it if we beat them, love it....." rant from Benitez.

And oh yeah, racism & homophobia in one post, well done mate. :rolleyes:

Mitch Connor

Mr Alan wrote: »

Ferguson constantly belittles Liverpool is sly little ways, leaving them out of lists of potential winners of the CL in interviews etc

And dont get me started on Gary Neville (club captain)

First off, I have heard Fergie congratulate Liverpool for the CL, I have heard him say they are always a danger in the CL.

As for Neville.... At least he didn't say he wants to KILL every Liverpool player.

BaZmO*

Oh Boohoo, our biggest rivals don't like us! Wah wah wah!

lordgoat

Draw

Mr Alan wrote: »

why?
you have a Torres picture to give me?:o

Yip i do, i think he's having a cry in it too

horseflesh

DesF wrote: »

Not on the pitch after losing so heavily to what are probably your main rivals.

Main rivals for what?
Surely Liverpool's main rivals are Everton, Villa & Portsmouth??

_blank_

Draw

horseflesh wrote: »

Main rivals for what?
Surely Liverpool's main rivals are Everton, Villa & Portsmouth??

Jaysis.

The world and it's mother knows that 'Pool/ManYoo is one of the biggest rivalries in football.

horseflesh

DesF wrote: »

Jaysis.

The world and it's mother knows that 'Pool/ManYoo is one of the biggest rivalries in football.

Yeah, but I'm sure United see Arsenal & Chelsea as their main rivals for the league title.
Likewise, Everton, Portsmouth et al see Liverpool as their main rivals for the 4th Champions League slot

Once again United gameplan seemed to be the usual let them have the ball and counter off that tactic that theyve used on Pool for most of the last few seasons. After about 15 mins that seemed to change and United started to control the play more and more. The pace of 3 or the United back 4 seems too much for Torres based on the 2 times he's been marshalled by Rio so far. Gerrard once again against United was kept quiet.

Anyone who thinks Masch sending off was harsh is deluded. My mate a Pool fan, who watched the match with me screamed at the tv for Masch to leave the ref alone 5 MINUTES BEFORE THE SENDING OFF. He's been talkin to the ref almost the whole first half and made some clumsy tackles after his first booking. I have no doubt that during one of the many verbal exchanges between Bennett and Masch in the first half that a warning was served somewhere. If he's too stupid to heed the warning then tough. Benitez defended him after but the split screen showed he knew it was comin.

Another good win in a game where I dont think they hit top gear. Hopin theres more to come anyway.


Viva Ronaldo being sang for about 15 straight minutes of the second half was awesome btw!

Nalz

Draw

Tauren wrote: »

First off, I have heard Fergie congratulate Liverpool for the CL, I have heard him say they are always a danger in the CL.

As for Neville.... At least he didn't say he wants to KILL every Liverpool player.

And didnt he stick up for them, albeit to get at Mourinho...saying something along the lines "liverpool are a massive club deep in history" bla bla bla.

Mr Alan

United

i knew it was coming as well.

just cause i knew it was coming, and your mate knew it was coming, and rafa knew it was coming, doesnt mean bennett was right to send of a player for speaking to him and asking him why-when the player was clearly not cursing and not being aggressive.

i knew it because Bennett is incompetent. and got a bollicking off his boss the week before for not booking players for back chat, therefore, went into this game to prove a point.

that makes wat mascherano did foolish.

but it does NOT make Bennett correct.