'Racist' games v.s Racist games

owlwink

I'm doing a project and I am just wondering whether people think that typical games that obey (racial) steriotypes, that have generalized elements of truth are more dangerous with their covert ambivalant racism, that tend to normalize broad race grouping. Or if blatant racist games e.g. Ethnic cleansing, border crossing, ghetto blaster......... often run by white supremist neo nazis as a tool to warp younger audiences beliefs in the direction of theirs, are worse????????????????????????????????????

Bobalicious93

lol might need to dumb that down for some people (including myself )

otherwise i wouldnt be expecting too many responses here

owlwink

That was my dumbed down version

Lemming

owlwink,

you'll probably want to go back to the drawing board with your question. It's horrendously full of holes as a starting point; the most obvious glaring hole being that you assume that a game with stereotypes in it is being inherently racist.

The question also shows significant pre-disposed bias therefore ruling it out as a "scientific" question of merit (it reads as a question dreamed up by the Sun newspaper to appear impartial before going on a crazy sensationalist article ... sorry). Your question implies that all outcomes are racist. So what's the point in examining it since you've already determined the outcome?

owlwink

Sorry just edited it, I meant to write (racial) steriotypes. Obviously with this i'm not implying that just because a game has a racial steriotype it is racist. More that it is open to being perceived as one due to it requiring to race an issue (in any sense)...

Also its not meant to be a individual question, its ambivalence is a set up for a comparitive question.

Lemming

owlwink wrote: »

Sorry just edited it, I meant to write (racial) steriotypes. Obviously with this i'm not implying that just because a game has a racial steriotype it is racist. More that it is open to being perceived as one due to it requiring to race an issue (in any sense)...

Still didn't address anything I mentioned. You really do need to look at both your wording and examining whether or not your approach is heavily prejudiced. The language and phrasing used would imply that to be the case (and you haven't even started). If this is some sort of public/college project, anyone who wanted to could easily crucify you over presentation or marking, proverbially speaking.


edit: just saw that edit with a comparative question. What exactly are you trying to do? And what's the comparative question?

owlwink

Ok. If we are to look at a contemporary game that has blatant racial steriotypes. Whether you accept them or not, they can be viewed as covert racist messages. Often when you don't deem them to be racist, this creates the realm of argument that this is due to the message being so covert or by this stage normalized. All I want to look at is whether or not the potential power of this is smaller or greater than that of the power enforced by the more specifically racist neo nazi games now available by groups such as resistance records, through analysing both forms of representation in the gaming medium. My question was only a basic slapdash thing. I apologise if it may have appeared prejudiced. Would you have an oppinion on the topic rather than the structure of the question????????????????? One thing you have to love about the topic of racism is when you pitch a question analysing types of racism and you get perceived as a racist. huhuhuhuhuhuhuhuh

Lemming

owlwink wrote: »

Ok. If we are to look at a contemporary game that has blatant racial steriotypes. Whether you accept them or not, they can be viewed as covert racist messages. Often when you don't deem them to be racist, this creates the realm of argument that this is due to the message being so covert or by this stage normalized. All I want to look at is whether or not the potential power of this is smaller or greater than that of the power enforced by the more specifically racist neo nazi games now available by groups such as resistance records, through analysing both forms of representation in the gaming medium. My question was only a basic slapdash thing. I apologise if it may have appeared prejudiced. Would you have an oppinion on the topic rather than the structure of the question????????????????? One thing you have to love about the topic of racism is when you pitch a question analysing types of racism and you get perceived as a racist. huhuhuhuhuhuhuhuh

And after having said all that, you still need to go back to your original question and rethink it. First of all, you're actually asking two wildly different questions within that question and forcing an assumption against one of those questions (thus ignoring it completely for convenience) so that you can answer the second question which you've already pre-determined an answer for. Any result you come up with is going to be horribly, horribly skewed

And what exactly are you using as your metric for measurement?

I have opinions on the area at hand, I just can't answer your question(s) due to the above. Like I said, your starting point is full of holes and in dire need of re-assessment before you consider taking this further if the project is in any way worth the effort.

Karl Hungus

owlwink wrote: »

If we are to look at a contemporary game that has blatant racial steriotypes.

Such as?

owlwink

Grand theft auto 3
Grand theft auto 4
resident evil (zombie as the other)!!!!!!!!!! also trailer for 5
call of duty 4
unchartered: Drake's fortune
loco roco
hitman

owlwink

an e.g. ha????????????????????????????/

owlwink

All I want to look at is whether or not the potential power of this is smaller or greater than that of the power enforced by the more specifically racist neo nazi games?

How is this two questions Mr. Lemming

Hercule

Question is a wee bit hard to decipher idd. But I have a little knowledge on the subject having done a similar essay which was a little bit broader a long time ago)

Well one form of stereotyping I recall is playing old football games in the arcade where the entire Irish team would be made up of ginger, bearded, long haired freckly fellas - apparently this is an acceptable stereotype. ie. the world thinks Ireland is full of leprechauns (when in reality its only 4% leprechauns). I believe this was done to appeal to the Irish - not to make fun of them, even if it does appear a little narrow minded.

Then there is a second form of stereotype whereby characters are "tight-cast" to provide a more interesting backdrop for a game for example GTA: San Andreas portrays almost every black person that live in rough areas as either gang members or criminals (and the odd crooked cop). This is done as not as many people are interested in a game about people trying to work out of a gang or a rough area. Its also important to note that the makers in a strange way are highly indiscriminate as virtually every race/creed/institution gets the same stereotypical representative - 99% of which are "bad"

I am a firm believer that games don't effect adults or children any more then films,music or books could/do

It would be strange to assume that any form of media dealing with a sensitive subject such as films like "Made in Britain" or "American History X" or games such as "GTA" or "Call of Duty 4" would be as effective as specific hate propaganda which is designed to glamourize hatred of race or creed

- keep in mind officially children shouldnt be exposed to these in the first place (we are all aware it happens anyway)

in summary :rolleyes: broadened stereotyping exists in all forms of media and is damaging to an extent (been like this since the dawn of time) - hate propaganda is inherently more evil and is wholly more damaging - luckily it is less dangerous due to is particularly low levels of exposure

GhostInTheRuins

LocoRoco is a racist game? lol

Ciaran500

Dont be at yourself

Racial stereotypes, when used in videogames, are rarely racist in their intent. Stereotypes - of any kind - are shorthand used when telling stories. Time and energy doesn't have to be spent building up characters if they already fit with well-known stereotypes. Bearing in mind that stereotypes very often have a kernel of truth, they can also aid in the sense of realism.

Lets look at Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. The game is set in a city with obvious correlations to real life Los Angelas. It's populated with racial stereotypes that have been previously addressed in countless movies, videogames, TV shows and music albums. By choosing this setting and this cast of stereotypical characters, Rockstar can immediately connect the audience to the game world, without having to go to particular ordeal to flesh out the setting & characters themselves. This is particularly helpful given the obvious limitations of videogames when it comes to such tasks.

As to whether that's better or worse than actual overt racism in neo-nazi videogames, that question surely answers itself. I can't say I've ever encountered such a game though, can you give some examples?

owlwink

Ethnic Cleansing
KKK Brothers
Border Crossing
Ghetto Blaster
Shoot the Blacks
Aryan 3
WP Doom (white power)

There is a list of a few ones I found.
Thanks for the replies guys.
Again though I'm aware that many games are not racist and only obey and give into steriotypes to add to the fuel of the fire and make the gaming world they are creaing a more explosive and interesting place. But is there something wrong with presenting racial steriotyping in a realm that is quite often filled with gaming violence. If certain steriotypes are so blatantly enforced doesnt it just normalize them and leave an expecting belief system based on skin colour, beneath the surface. Massive paradoxes that we cant escape due to man as a whole striving for everything to be in its most pellucid form, still interesting to look at

Crucifix

What's racist about zombies?

Placebo

maybe ul get more with cartoons

owlwink

I don't agree with this, but some people thhough i that the rotting of the skin and its blackening and tattered nature reflects the notion of an unwanted skin. Basically I think that any subject matter that concerns itself with the skin, can be deemed on some level as either consciously or unconsciously racist. Personally I think they are just zombies, although it is difficult to sway such interpretations due to them existing always on some level in the text. A categorisation system that further fragments its matter with versimilitude. (you have to love language)...........

owlwink

Hey Placebo I just thought it was interesting because people engage with games on a physical and mental level, while cartoons are just viewed on a mental level. Does a hands approach entice people more than just a mental??????

r3nu4l

As someone who works in the Communications arena and is a scientist I agree with Lemming, your questions are not definitive enough nor do they give the reader a clear understanding of what information you are looking for.

However, I'll attempt to address my perception of your questions by taking COD4 as an example.

The full title of COD4 is "Callof Duty4: Modern Warfare". A large portion of the game is situated in the Middle East. There are plenty of reasons for this of which I will highlight one.

The most recent, high-profile wars involving Western nations have been in the Middle East, therefore, this highlights the "Modern Warfare" aspect of the game while also tying in with current affairs.

Another sub-plot/plot of the game involves ultranationalist Russians sourcing spent nuclear fuel rods.

So far we have Middle Eastern and Russian 'bad guys'. However, there are also Russian 'good guys' that help the 'good guys' played by the gamers.

So the fact that we have Russian bad and good guys means that we can't say that Russia or her people are being portrayed as evil, sub-human or anything else.

As for the characters of middle-eastern origin, in the game...
We see them in action in several cut scenes in COD4, waving guns in the air, firing them off, public executions etc. This is something we all see on the news everyday and I've seen it in unedited footage too.

Does this reinforce racial sterotypes? Perhaps. Equally, it simply reinforces what we have seen on the news already so it certainly doesn't generate any 'new' perceptions of the Middle East.

Can it be viewed as racist? Doubtful, it simply mimics much of what we see on our news-screens in the context of Middle-Eastern warfare. I'm glad to see that the game does not show every single Middle Eastern shoulder wearing towels on their heads, that would be racist! Instead, many of them wear berets on their heads and scarves around their necks, an accurate portrayal of many Middle-Eastern military units.

I'm not sure this answers your questions. I think that in trying to dumb down the question, you have gone too far and it is far too open for interpretation. Some specifics would be nice and if you want to PM me a proper survey, I'll certainly answer it and email it to you.

L31mr0d

eh... ok, I'm going to go with a "Yes" that games developed by neo nazis ARE worse than normal games developers.

Doctor DooM

In the case of the resident evil games:

You're in Spain, you shoot spanish zombies. You're in Africa, you will shoot black zombies. If they made one in Ireland, you would shoot white zombies.

I suggest you watch the second half of this video for a bit of humourous perspective on racism in games ( not those made specifically for racism, but I doubt a single person here would give them their time tbh)

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/.../editorials/zeropunctuation/1350-Zero-Punctuation-Heavenly-Sword-and-Other-Stuff

r3nu4l

L31mr0d wrote: »

eh... ok, I'm going to go with a "Yes" that games developed by neo nazis ARE worse than normal games developers.

Yup, this will be the initial response from 99% of people. The vast majority of neo-nazi games will overtly show hatred for other people, a fact that is unpalatable to most.

However, other games that display racism in a more subtle fashion by use of negative racial stereotypes (black drug dealer/addict/mugger/gang member; middle eastern 'terrorist'; Irish drunken layabout) can have a more subtle effect of reinforcing those negative stereotypes. Are these games as bad as overtly racist games? IMO, no, not for the majority of 'normal'-thinking people.

For those that already believe these racial stereotypes, they see it as positive reinforcement that the world thinks the same way as they do, however, there is not much one can do to change those deep-seated beliefs. Having a game where the middle-eastern guy is trying to defeat anti-American white guys, just won't be believable to those people. Having Barac Obama as President of the USA, won't change how the KKK view black people

owlwink

I left it ambiguous just to see what answers it stirred in the people reading the post. I tried not to include my oppinions and ideas so as not to point people in my direction of thought. I find it interesting just pitching something and seeing where it goes. Although I agree on some levels this may have left it too open ended. Just want to see if there are any interpretations that may have swam by me.

As for Call of Duty 4, although the cut scenes do just mirror aspects of what we see on the news, is this a good thing????

The news does not really tend to be our friend when perceiving the other. It wll only reinforce the dominant ideology. Although it is already being done, is its presence in a video game, which people have hours of both physical and mental contact with a healthy thing???????????????????

Doctor DooM

owlwink wrote: »

I left it ambiguous just to see what answers it stirred in the people reading the post. I tried not to include my oppinions and ideas so as not to point people in my direction of thought. I find it interesting just pitching something and seeing where it goes. Although I agree on some levels this may have left it too open ended. Just want to see if there are any interpretations that may have swam by me.

As for Call of Duty 4, although the cut scenes do just mirror aspects of what we see on the news, is this a good thing????

The news does not really tend to be our friend when perceiving the other. It wll only reinforce the dominant ideology. Although it is already being done, is its presence in a video game, which people have hours of both physical and mental contact with a healthy thing???????????????????

It's a game. Most people have enough brains to divorce reality from fantasy (even the people of boardland )

owlwink

(Most) people

I'm aware of this, but what about kids who are not really aware of what they are doing/viewing?? Can it implant certain modes of understanding within them??? Making it normal to paint certain skins in certain ways....

Doctor DooM

owlwink wrote: »

(Most) people

I'm aware of this, but what about kids who are not really aware of what they are doing/viewing?? Can it implant certain modes of understanding within them??? Making it normal to paint certain skins in certain ways....

Kids shouldn't be playing the games you mentioned, they are all labelled for mature audiences, and should not be sold to minors.

r3nu4l

owlwink wrote: »

As for Call of Duty 4, although the cut scenes do just mirror aspects of what we see on the news, is this a good thing????

As with my example above, most normally-adjusted, educated people will see it for what it is meant to be, a part of the story and a mirror of what we see on the news.

The news does not really tend to be our friend when perceiving the other. It wll only reinforce the dominant ideology. Although it is already being done, is its presence in a video game, which people have hours of both physical and mental contact with a healthy thing???????????????????

True, news is almost always biased and written and edited to an agenda! Again, most people should know this. However, do we ban this simply because a few take it as a true, real and accurate portrayal? No way! Then we'd have to start censoring everything and censorship is rarely a good thing.

As for hours of contact with the game, most gamers do play for hours, however, the cut scenes only last minutes at most and many people don't even watch cut-scenes, preferring to 'skip to the action'. In fact, even after watching cut-scenes for a game I'm only interested in the objective. I don't care if the enemy I need to take out is black/white/Jewish/muslim/gangster/police officer, all I care about is who do I take out and what do I do afterwards?

/Aside, I could be wrong but I think you have already made up your mind as to the outcomes of this. Wording such as 'is this a healthy thing????????????' signify that you believe it is not. Don't go into your research with pre-conceived ideas or with a pre-defined agenda. A 'vox pop' is not research, and a poorly worded/conducted survey will not give you the answers you seek.

You should read a lot more about research methodology and include both qualitative and quantitative aspects in your research. Dump your own feelings on the subject and be prepared to objectively take notes and results. Then when interpreting your results, try to remove your own feelings from the subject at hand. Then, if you're lucky, you might get some good outcomes and conclusions Interesting idea and subject area!

owlwink

Note the way i'm asking questions not saying what is or isnt. I have no preset conclusion whatsoever. If I did I would state it. Asking a question does not mean you have already made your mind up on something.