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Distain for the Irish people?
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17-03-2008 3:54am#1As I walked down town to get some shopping (20 year old college student BTW) I couldn't help but notice all the people falling around the streets hammered off their face, today is a certain day after all.
Is it wrong of me to look down on these people as lesser beings?
Am I wrong to pity them because they go out just to get drunk and get laid?
Sure they're having fun, the shouts and general noise they make leans towards that option, but I can't help to feel a little ashamed when this is how the rest of the world sees the Irish.....
Enter Pac-Man: :pac:5
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Not at all, there are quite a few people on here that are disillusioned with the whole 'drink culture', myself included! I certainly think thats how we are perceived now around the world as a 'nation of drunks' which is very sad!
Was on the DART the other day and overheard a group of girls in their early 20s talking about how 'important is was to get outta their face at the weekend'! I shudder to think what its going to be like a generation down the line! Most streets you walk down now within proximity of a pub are used as a toilet and stink to high hell! It really is shameful:(0 -
Afer living and working in Boston for a short while, you can see how many of the Irish ex Pats carry on the sterotype that so much of us get offended by when the English or Americans call us drunks. In America, they guy i worked for and visit regularly had alot of Irish work for him... He calls Monday.. "an Irish Holiday"0
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I dunno about you lot but I stayed in on Paddy's Day. I remember when I lived in town and I went to the cinema with my boyfriend. Walking home there were rivers of puke everywhere, people pissing in the streets and girls falling over & crying their eyes out over god knows what. I can safely say that it's the worst day of the year.
What's really sad is that so many people from all over the world come here just to witness the day and probably end up really disillusioned.
The Irish are seen as drunks worldwide, and it's a fair stereotype, but it doesn't apply to all of us :cool:0 -
I like the jovial atmosphere but thats about it, was in there 2 years ago and although I enjoyed it, things went downhill as the day got on and as you described, people just loose control of themselves:o0
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To be fair, Britain has just as much of a problem with it - it's not just us! I've seen quite a few items on Sky News on the subject. Sure, we feel especially sensitive to the whole Irish drinking stereotype, but it really is just a part of a bigger picture these days.0
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I stopped bothering with the City Centre on Paddy's Day years ago.
It really does seem to drag the worst in society out.
There's people like that in every country in the world, though.0 -
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Genghiz Cohen wrote: »Is it wrong of me to look down on these people as lesser beings?
Yes. What makes you so great just because you're not out getting drunk and having a good time?Genghiz Cohen wrote: »Am I wrong to pity them because they go out just to get drunk and get laid?
Yes, because they enjoy getting drunk and getting laid, and both are admirable and pleasurable pursuits. To be honest, they probably pity you because you don't get drunk and get laid (if that is the case), and I would say that it is just as insulting for you to pity them as it is for them to pity you.Genghiz Cohen wrote: »Sure they're having fun, the shouts and general noise they make leans towards that option, but I can't help to feel a little ashamed when this is how the rest of the world sees the Irish.....
You're ashamed that the world sees Irish people as fun? There's a lot worse things they could think of us - greedy, incompetent, corrupt, lazy, dishonest, etc, and there are a lot of worse things that people think about other countries e.g. boring, aggressive, savage, stupid etc. Being fun is a great thing, and if you can't have a reputation for being a land of beautiful people (such as Brazil, Sweeden etc), I'd settle for fun anyday.Afer living and working in Boston for a short while, you can see how many of the Irish ex Pats carry on the sterotype that so much of us get offended by when the English or Americans call us drunks. In America, they guy i worked for and visit regularly had alot of Irish work for him... He calls Monday.. "an Irish Holiday"
I don't think most Irish people get offended when branded as drunks. Most Irish people that I know play up to it. "Irish Holiday" - what a legend.0 -
johnnyskeleton wrote: »Yes. What makes you so great just because you're not out getting drunk and having a good time?
There's more than one way to have a good time, and do so without spoiling other people's good time. This 'good time' you refer to is a major problem in society, so much so that we've got government sponsored ads trying to get people to see sense. Surely you've seen the 'I've had enough' series. I personally hate side-stepping puke on my way to work every morning. I'm sure if you take this argument over to the emergency services forum, there will be plenty of guards to tell you about having to deal with drunken fights, and plenty of ER doctors to tell you the same story.johnnyskeleton wrote: »Yes, because they enjoy getting drunk and getting laid, and both are admirable and pleasurable pursuits. To be honest, they probably pity you because you don't get drunk and get laid (if that is the case), and I would say that it is just as insulting for you to pity them as it is for them to pity you.
Do getting drunk and getting laid go together? Not in my book. That's how unwanted babies are made.johnnyskeleton wrote: »You're ashamed that the world sees Irish people as fun? There's a lot worse things they could think of us - greedy, incompetent, corrupt, lazy, dishonest, etc, and there are a lot of worse things that people think about other countries e.g. boring, aggressive, savage, stupid etc. Being fun is a great thing, and if you can't have a reputation for being a land of beautiful people (such as Brazil, Sweeden etc), I'd settle for fun anyday.
Right, so when the Irish first emigrated to the United States all those years ago, they garnered a reputation for being 'fun'..? I don't think so.johnnyskeleton wrote: »I don't think most Irish people get offended when branded as drunks. Most Irish people that I know play up to it. "Irish Holiday" - what a legend.
That may or may not be true, but I personally would hate to have to carry the baggage of that ghastly stereotype wherever I go.0 -
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OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »There's more than one way to have a good time, and do so without spoiling other people's good time. This 'good time' you refer to is a major problem in society, so much so that we've got government sponsored ads trying to get people to see sense. Surely you've seen the 'I've had enough' series. I personally hate side-stepping puke on my way to work every morning. I'm sure if you take this argument over to the emergency services forum, there will be plenty of guards to tell you about having to deal with drunken fights, and plenty of ER doctors to tell you the same story.
It being a major problem is just your point of view. There are problems associated with alcohol but to suggest that therefore alcohol is a major problem is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Let people have a bit of fun, that's what I say. I don't think that the fact there are government ads means that drinking is a problem - the RSA ads don't mean that driving is a problem. Those ads are targeted at reducing drunken violence and over-indulgence, they are not trying to stop people getting drunk. And as for gards and doctors, of course they would say that, but gards see the worst of society and doctors only deal with sick people. There is no proportionality i.e. gards aren't called to pubs where everyone is just having a good time and no-one visits the doctor for a mild hangover. And I hate sidestepping dog excrement on the footpath, but I'm not against dogs, nor do I think any less of dog owners.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »Do getting drunk and getting laid go together? Not in my book. That's how unwanted babies are made.
OP made that association.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »Right, so when the Irish first emigrated to the United States all those years ago, they garnered a reputation for being 'fun'..? I don't think so.
OP first suggested that was the reputation.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »That may or may not be true, but I personally would hate to have to carry the baggage of that ghastly stereotype wherever I go.
I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun disproving the stereotype where-ever you go.0 -
johnnyskeleton wrote: »It being a major problem is just your point of view. There are problems associated with alcohol but to suggest that therefore alcohol is a major problem is to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Let people have a bit of fun, that's what I say. I don't think that the fact there are government ads means that drinking is a problem - the RSA ads don't mean that driving is a problem. Those ads are targeted at reducing drunken violence and over-indulgence, they are not trying to stop people getting drunk. And as for gards and doctors, of course they would say that, but gards see the worst of society and doctors only deal with sick people. There is no proportionality i.e. gards aren't called to pubs where everyone is just having a good time and no-one visits the doctor for a mild hangover. And I hate sidestepping dog excrement on the footpath, but I'm not against dogs, nor do I think any less of dog owners.
Ok, a couple of points here:
1) You keep talking about having fun. You can have fun without getting pissed, and lets face it, most drinkers here do it to excess. Sure, some people, like you, are responsible and just have a good laugh and that's that, but that sadly doesn't reflect the bigger picture. No drinking problem in our society? Come on man, you're having a laugh.
2) Yes, there is a driving problem here (i.e. nobody has a damn clue what they're doing). That's why the RSA ads are there, although it's not as big a problem as alcohol consumption. It has to be pointed out though, that the two problems are lethal when combined.
3) As my mum was lying on the road with her arm practically in 2 pieces, apologising to the paramedics for taking up their time, they said they were more than glad to help, as 5 OUT OF 6 cases they deal with throughout a shift are related to alcohol abuse. 5 out of 6! Something is really wrong here. If you don't believe me you can ask a paramedic yourself.
4) Well there isn't as much dog poo on my route to work in the city centre as there is puke. But yeah, the dogsh1t that I find near my house needs to be taken care of. I always see guilty looking dog owners around my area taking their little hairball for a nice crap along the coast road, and failing to scoop it up. I wouldn't mind, but there are dog poo bins everywhere around here. People just don't care.0 -
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OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »Ok, a couple of points here:
1) You keep talking about having fun. You can have fun without getting pissed, and lets face it, most drinkers here do it to excess. Sure, some people, like you, are responsible and just have a good laugh and that's that, but that sadly doesn't reflect the bigger picture. No drinking problem in our society? Come on man, you're having a laugh.
I'll put it like this, and I hope you'll follow me:
Just because there are problems arising from drinking, does not mean that drinking is a problem.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »2) Yes, there is a driving problem here (i.e. nobody has a damn clue what they're doing). That's why the RSA ads are there, although it's not as big a problem as alcohol consumption. It has to be pointed out though, that the two problems are lethal when combined.
Driving isn't a problem. The problems would go away if there was no driving, and at the same time even if everyone was a responsible driver there would still be accidents. It is not a realistic stance to say blame motorised transport for driving accidents, nor is there much reality in arguing that we should get rid of it to prevent any accidents.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »3) As my mum was lying on the road with her arm practically in 2 pieces, apologising to the paramedics for taking up their time, they said they were more than glad to help, as 5 OUT OF 6 cases they deal with throughout a shift are related to alcohol abuse. 5 out of 6! Something is really wrong here. If you don't believe me you can ask a paramedic yourself.
Here's another shocking statistic - 6 out of 6 people that paramedics helped had something wrong with them. Didn't you earlier say that it was not possible for me to say whether most people were responsible drinkers? Why then do you expect me to accept this as accurate, just because it is linked to an alleged paramedic. I'm sure of a friday / saturday night there would be a high amount of alcohol related incidents, but conversly I would have thought that during the week the number of alcohol related accidents would be very low. I also doubt that a paramedic is really in a position to determine whether the accidents are alcohol related or whether someone in relation to the accident had been drinking. There is a difference.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »4) Well there isn't as much dog poo on my route to work in the city centre as there is puke. But yeah, the dogsh1t that I find near my house needs to be taken care of. I always see guilty looking dog owners around my area taking their little hairball for a nice crap along the coast road, and failing to scoop it up. I wouldn't mind, but there are dog poo bins everywhere around here. People just don't care.
But that's it; argue for more responsibility among certain dog owners and certain drinkers. Don't just tar them as bad as a group because some people are inconsiderate.0 -
johnnyskeleton wrote: »I'll put it like this, and I hope you'll follow me:
Just because there are problems arising from drinking, does not mean that drinking is a problem.
What IS the problem then? Like I said before - talk to any paramedic, ER doctor or garda, and they will tell you exactly what the problem is.johnnyskeleton wrote: »Driving isn't a problem. The problems would go away if there was no driving, and at the same time even if everyone was a responsible driver there would still be accidents. It is not a realistic stance to say blame motorised transport for driving accidents, nor is there much reality in arguing that we should get rid of it to prevent any accidents.
I think we should leave driving out of this discussion from this point on. My position is this: Since we need cars in society, all we can hope to do is educate people on how to drive properly, or at least make the tests more strict.johnnyskeleton wrote: »Here's another shocking statistic - 6 out of 6 people that paramedics helped had something wrong with them. Didn't you earlier say that it was not possible for me to say whether most people were responsible drinkers? Why then do you expect me to accept this as accurate, just because it is linked to an alleged paramedic. I'm sure of a friday / saturday night there would be a high amount of alcohol related incidents, but conversly I would have thought that during the week the number of alcohol related accidents would be very low. I also doubt that a paramedic is really in a position to determine whether the accidents are alcohol related or whether someone in relation to the accident had been drinking. There is a difference.
I realise that what I said is anecdotal, but I can only assure you that it's true. I've no interest in making up nonsense to bolster my argument. You can always ask over at the emergency services forum and see how accurate my figure was.
You don't think paramedics can assess if a case is alcohol related? Once again, you must be having a laugh mate.johnnyskeleton wrote: »But that's it; argue for more responsibility among certain dog owners and certain drinkers. Don't just tar them as bad as a group because some people are inconsiderate.
Unfortunately, that argument falls on deaf ears. Every bottle of booze says 'Enjoy Responsibly', everywhere you look in the DART, you see the 'I've had enough' campaign, and every day I have to walk around puke, testament to the fact that the ads aren't working. And how exactly do you suggest i campaign for responsible drinking? Demos in the street? I'm already ranting and raving on this forum...what else can I do?
With almost every post, you talk about 'fun'. It seems, for you, people must have fun at all costs, right?0 -
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OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »What IS the problem then? Like I said before - talk to any paramedic, ER doctor or garda, and they will tell you exactly what the problem is.
Being human, that's the problem. Your argument ask any paramedic, ER doctor or garda is not an argument, it is evasion.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »I think we should leave driving out of this discussion from this point on. My position is this: Since we need cars in society, all we can hope to do is educate people on how to drive properly, or at least make the tests more strict.
Do we not need alcohol then? I can survive without a car if you can survive without alcohol. But if we were to call alcohol useless because it is not essential to the furtherance of human existance (although it does act as a certain lubricant in that regard), then you may as well advocate that we become robots.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »I realise that what I said is anecdotal, but I can only assure you that it's true. I've no interest in making up nonsense to bolster my argument. You can always ask over at the emergency services forum and see how accurate my figure was.
If that's the case why say it at all? You've introduced something without any foundation asking me to accept it as true. Your motive is irrelevant. If you want to prove this point, get some statistics.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »You don't think paramedics can assess if a case is alcohol related? Once again, you must be having a laugh mate.
I think for a paramedic to say that most of their cases are alcohol related sounds like someone trying to force a connection between all the accidents. Here is a report from UCD which shows that:
1) 24% of ER admissions were alcohol related
2) even on friday and saturday nights, there are more non-alcohol related admissions than alcohol related admissions
3) alcohol related is defined as having had a drink in the previous 6 hours.
What I mean about the paramedics is that if they are called to a pub and someone has fallen and broken their leg, they might assume that it is alcohol related. But the person might have only had a drink or two, and the broken leg was due to a hazard on the premises of a pub, or due to some other effect, or they might have been pushed by another person (who might have been sober).
Another point to consider is that if someone is involved in a road traffic accident and they had been drinking (even if below the limit) people will automatically assume that alcohol was the cause of the accident. There is however, no way of knowing whether the accident would have happened anyway.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »Unfortunately, that argument falls on deaf ears. Every bottle of booze says 'Enjoy Responsibly', everywhere you look in the DART, you see the 'I've had enough' campaign, and every day I have to walk around puke, testament to the fact that the ads aren't working. And how exactly do you suggest i campaign for responsible drinking? Demos in the street? I'm already ranting and raving on this forum...what else can I do?
I don't expect you to do anything, other than be a bit more tolerant of other people.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »With almost every post, you talk about 'fun'. It seems, for you, people must have fun at all costs, right?
Not at all costs, you're putting words in my mouth here. But people are entitled to enjoy themselves. Of course I accept that the extremities of this enjoyment can impinge on your lifestyle from time to time, but we all have to live with other people, especially in as you get nearer to the city centre and some tolerance, and less looking down, is required from the OP.0 -
johnnyskeleton wrote: »Being human, that's the problem. Your argument ask any paramedic, ER doctor or garda is not an argument, it is evasion.
Can't ban humans, but we can ban alcohol (the cause of humans getting in a state beyond their own control). Obviously I don't expect that to happen, but it is something I'd like to see.johnnyskeleton wrote: »Do we not need alcohol then? I can survive without a car if you can survive without alcohol. But if we were to call alcohol useless because it is not essential to the furtherance of human existance (although it does act as a certain lubricant in that regard), then you may as well advocate that we become robots.
Some people can't survive without a car - a lot of people have to drive for 2 hrs every morning for work. Alcohol is a form of entertainment, and its costs in society outweigh its benefits IMO.johnnyskeleton wrote: »If that's the case why say it at all? You've introduced something without any foundation asking me to accept it as true. Your motive is irrelevant. If you want to prove this point, get some statistics.
Well, it's true that the paramedic said those words, but the figures themselves may be debatable.johnnyskeleton wrote: »I think for a paramedic to say that most of their cases are alcohol related sounds like someone trying to force a connection between all the accidents. Here is a report from UCD which shows that:
1) 24% of ER admissions were alcohol related
2) even on friday and saturday nights, there are more non-alcohol related admissions than alcohol related admissions
3) alcohol related is defined as having had a drink in the previous 6 hours.
What I mean about the paramedics is that if they are called to a pub and someone has fallen and broken their leg, they might assume that it is alcohol related. But the person might have only had a drink or two, and the broken leg was due to a hazard on the premises of a pub, or due to some other effect, or they might have been pushed by another person (who might have been sober).
Another point to consider is that if someone is involved in a road traffic accident and they had been drinking (even if below the limit) people will automatically assume that alcohol was the cause of the accident. There is however, no way of knowing whether the accident would have happened anyway.
24% is still really high, and I should point out that the 5/6 I mentioned was people being brought by ambulance. Lots of A&E patients walk in there. TBH, you seem determined to free alcohol of any blame whatsoever, and I cannot accept that when, as I said before, people who work in the front lines think it's the biggest curse of society.johnnyskeleton wrote: »I don't expect you to do anything, other than be a bit more tolerant of other people.
To what point? I've no problem with the concept of enjoyment, but why should I tolerate boozed up people running amuck?johnnyskeleton wrote: »Not at all costs, you're putting words in my mouth here. But people are entitled to enjoy themselves. Of course I accept that the extremities of this enjoyment can impinge on your lifestyle from time to time, but we all have to live with other people, especially in as you get nearer to the city centre and some tolerance, and less looking down, is required from the OP.
I can't help but feel a bit annoyed at that - I spend a good bit of time online trying to convince people to treat others with respect, and tolerate people of all different ethnic and religious backgrounds, and you are trying to preach tolerance of DRUNKS to me.0 -
johnnyskeleton wrote: »
I think for a paramedic to say that most of their cases are alcohol related sounds like someone trying to force a connection between all the accidents. Here is a report from UCD which shows that:
1) 24% of ER admissions were alcohol related
2) even on friday and saturday nights, there are more non-alcohol related admissions than alcohol related admissions
3) alcohol related is defined as having had a drink in the previous 6 hours.
What I mean about the paramedics is that if they are called to a pub and someone has fallen and broken their leg, they might assume that it is alcohol related. But the person might have only had a drink or two, and the broken leg was due to a hazard on the premises of a pub, or due to some other effect, or they might have been pushed by another person (who might have been sober).
Another point to consider is that if someone is involved in a road traffic accident and they had been drinking (even if below the limit) people will automatically assume that alcohol was the cause of the accident. There is however, no way of knowing whether the accident would have happened anyway.
Is there really any need to be so hyper-anal?? It doesn't matter what way you dissect the issue or turn it on its head, its still not gonna lessen the impact of whats goin on out there!! Would it not be more beneficial to use your energy more effectively than producing this prattle!:rolleyes:0 -
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OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »Can't ban humans, but we can ban alcohol (the cause of humans getting in a state beyond their own control). Obviously I don't expect that to happen, but it is something I'd like to see.
Do you not believe in some level of personal responsibility?OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »Some people can't survive without a car - a lot of people have to drive for 2 hrs every morning for work. Alcohol is a form of entertainment, and its costs in society outweigh its benefits IMO.
I'm not sure that you can make that value judgement when you only look at the negative impact and not at the positives (I know this because of your posts in the other thread)OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »Well, it's true that the paramedic said those words, but the figures themselves may be debatable.
24% is still really high, and I should point out that the 5/6 I mentioned was people being brought by ambulance. Lots of A&E patients walk in there. TBH, you seem determined to free alcohol of any blame whatsoever, and I cannot accept that when, as I said before, people who work in the front lines think it's the biggest curse of society.
I still doubt the wild assertions allegedly made by a paramedic. So now you can speak for "people who work in the front lines"? I doubt this even more, as there are much bigger problems such as heroin, cocaine, criminal gangs, child abuse, dangerous drivers, etc.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »To what point? I've no problem with the concept of enjoyment, but why should I tolerate boozed up people running amuck?
Because they tolerate you.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »I can't help but feel a bit annoyed at that - I spend a good bit of time online trying to convince people to treat others with respect, and tolerate people of all different ethnic and religious backgrounds, and you are trying to preach tolerance of DRUNKS to me.
You should practice what you preach then, instead of having a double standard and getting annoyed when someone points it out.0 -
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Is there really any need to be so hyper-anal?? It doesn't matter what way you dissect the issue or turn it on its head, its still not gonna lessen the impact of whats goin on out there!! Would it not be more beneficial to use your energy more effectively than producing this prattle!:rolleyes:
As I said in the other thread, if you're prepared to debate this rationally rather than insult me I'll respond to your post. Post reported.0 -
Its by no means an insult! You're just like a dog with a bone on this! I'm not gonna waste my time or energy debating the issue on here, I've seen with my own eyes the state of mayhem on the streets and where possible I will do something about it!!0
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Gridlock if you're not prepared to discuss the topic rationally then don't do it at all... johnnyskeleton referring to statistics rather than anecdotes to demonstrate his point is perfectly acceptable -- and indeed encouraged. If you can't argue against his points without childish insults then just don't bother please.0
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johnnyskeleton wrote: »Do you not believe in some level of personal responsibility?
Yes! But unfortunately the words 'be more responsible' aren't enough to make the situation any better.johnnyskeleton wrote: »I still doubt the wild assertions allegedly made by a paramedic. So now you can speak for "people who work in the front lines"? I doubt this even more, as there are much bigger problems such as heroin, cocaine, criminal gangs, child abuse, dangerous drivers, etc.
No, I don't speak for the people on the front lines - they themselves speak about how fed up they are with the alcohol-fuelled shenanigans they have to deal with.
Yes, criminal gangs are a problem, but nowhere near as widespread as alcohol related problems. Heroin? Maybe in the 90's. Cocaine, maybe, but how many times do we hear about cocaine users mowing people down at 3am? How many cocaine related cases are lying in A&E? Face it, alcohol is the BIGGEST problem in society at the moment.
Don't know where on earth you're going with child abuse. That's an entirely different topic.johnnyskeleton wrote: »Because they tolerate you.
Assuming guns were legal here, should I tolerate people who get their kicks from firing AK-47's into the air in the middle of the night? I'm sure they'd tolerate me (i.e. the person with his eyes closed, not doing anything except trying to get a good night's sleep).johnnyskeleton wrote: »You should practice what you preach then, instead of having a double standard and getting annoyed when someone points it out.
I do. I accept everyone as an equal, no matter where they come from, or what religion they practise. But I'm not going to tolerate a situation where people are out of control, kicking wheely bins, shouting in the street, pissing into people's doorways, almost killing people in their cars, just for the sake of having 'fun'. Nobody is born a drinker, nobody has to do it. Like I said, there ARE responsible drinkers, but they problem of irresponsible drinking is so prevalent that many people, like me, are saying 'enough is enough'.0 -
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OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »No, I don't speak for the people on the front lines - they themselves speak about how fed up they are with the alcohol-fuelled shenanigans they have to deal with.
You've just done it again. "they themselves speak about how fed up they are with the alcohol-fuelled shenanigans they have to deal with". Where is your proof, what sources are you citing? You're speaking for them.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »Yes, criminal gangs are a problem, but nowhere near as widespread as alcohol related problems. Heroin? Maybe in the 90's. Cocaine, maybe, but how many times do we hear about cocaine users mowing people down at 3am? How many cocaine related cases are lying in A&E? Face it, alcohol is the BIGGEST problem in society at the moment.
Statistics or that's just your opinion.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »Don't know where on earth you're going with child abuse. That's an entirely different topic.
It's another big problem in our society, much bigger in my view than alcohol abuse.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »Assuming guns were legal here, should I tolerate people who get their kicks from firing AK-47's into the air in the middle of the night? I'm sure they'd tolerate me (i.e. the person with his eyes closed, not doing anything except trying to get a good night's sleep).
That would require another big assumption that would be that discharging a gun is perfectly acceptable. But with all these things, it's a question of getting the gardai to deal with the situation, and if the gardai do nothing about it, I'm afraid you're just going to have to put up with it.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »I do. I accept everyone as an equal, no matter where they come from, or what religion they practise. But I'm not going to tolerate a situation where people are out of control, kicking wheely bins, shouting in the street, pissing into people's doorways, almost killing people in their cars, just for the sake of having 'fun'. Nobody is born a drinker, nobody has to do it. Like I said, there ARE responsible drinkers, but they problem of irresponsible drinking is so prevalent that many people, like me, are saying 'enough is enough'.
Nor should you, but nor should you accept this from sober people. So we come back to the original point which is this: it is not drunk people that you find difficult to deal with, it is hooligans. Whether the hooligans do these things after drink, drugs, medication or when completely sober makes little difference - it's not drunk people that are the problem, it's criminals I think you should be concerned with. I think that by associating drinkers (and in particular the culture of drinking mentioned in the thread title) with criminal behaviour you are no better than someone who associates criminal behaviour with people of a certain race or class.0 -
johnnyskeleton wrote: »You've just done it again. "they themselves speak about how fed up they are with the alcohol-fuelled shenanigans they have to deal with". Where is your proof, what sources are you citing? You're speaking for them.
Why don't you just go to the emergency services forum and ask them?? Then I won't have to give you second hand information.johnnyskeleton wrote: »It's another big problem in our society, much bigger in my view than alcohol abuse.
Well I think your view is distorted by the fact that you love alcohol so much.johnnyskeleton wrote: »That would require another big assumption that would be that discharging a gun is perfectly acceptable. But with all these things, it's a question of getting the gardai to deal with the situation, and if the gardai do nothing about it, I'm afraid you're just going to have to put up with it.
Let's say it's unacceptable. Let's also say rowdy boozed-up, puking behavior in a civilised society is too.johnnyskeleton wrote: »Nor should you, but nor should you accept this from sober people. So we come back to the original point which is this: it is not drunk people that you find difficult to deal with, it is hooligans. Whether the hooligans do these things after drink, drugs, medication or when completely sober makes little difference - it's not drunk people that are the problem, it's criminals I think you should be concerned with. I think that by associating drinkers (and in particular the culture of drinking mentioned in the thread title) with criminal behaviour you are no better than someone who associates criminal behaviour with people of a certain race or class.
Can't believe you'd whip out that one. I'm no better than a racist??? Because I do not like alcohol culture??
True, it's a crime to kick somebody's wheely bin, as it's damaging something that doesn't belong to you, but so is throwing litter, jaywalking or downloading an mp3.
Drinkers are not an ethnic group. Nobody is born a drinker, nobody has to drink. To draw that parallel is very insulting to anyone who has suffeed real racial discrimination. Are the two concepts equal in your mind? Is that the level of importance you place on drink?
I think it's safe to say we live on different planets, and we should try to wrap this up soon.0 -
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OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »Why don't you just go to the emergency services forum and ask them?? Then I won't have to give you second hand information.
Because he who asserts must prove. Besides, I've presented my statistics and I'm satisfied that they are representative of the situation as it is.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »Well I think your view is distorted by the fact that you love alcohol so much.
I can't deny my love for cheap claret, but do you honestly think alcohol is a more serious problem than child abuse? I would rather 100 people die of liver failure than have one child molested.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »Let's say it's unacceptable. Let's also say rowdy boozed-up, puking behavior in a civilised society is too.
As I say, it is the rowdyness that is the problem, not the boozed up part. The puking I can live with, much the same as I tolerate dog poo.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »Can't believe you'd whip out that one. I'm no better than a racist??? Because I do not like alcohol culture??
You have created a stereotype in your head and refuse to listen to any other argument. You make judgements about people as a class, not as individuals. That doesn't put you on a par with a racist of the KKK type, but it would put you on a level footing with someone who makes sweeping generalities about races or groups (on the same level, for example, as someone who believes all travellers are criminals).OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »True, it's a crime to kick somebody's wheely bin, as it's damaging something that doesn't belong to you, but so is throwing litter, jaywalking or downloading an mp3.
Only if you damage it, but that's just me nitpicking.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »Drinkers are not an ethnic group. Nobody is born a drinker, nobody has to drink.
I agree.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »To draw that parallel is very insulting to anyone who has suffeed real racial discrimination.
I'm not talking about the external effects of those views, I'm talking about how a person deals with groups, as opposed to individuals on an internal level. While there is no doubt that Drinkers do not face discrimination, but some racial and ethnic groups do, that is not my point. My point is that I think people try to avoid dividing the world into groups of people and then make unshakable judgements about them. I think that if you met a drunk person you should talk to them and see if they are an interesting person rather than just assume they are an unpleasant drunk. That way you will begin to open your mind a bit more on this issue, and eventually you may come to understand (if not accept) what I'm saying.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »Are the two concepts equal in your mind? Is that the level of importance you place on drink?
No and No, see above.OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »I think it's safe to say we live on different planets, and we should try to wrap this up soon.
Yes but it's like you live on a Star Wars planet where everything is ordered and proper and I live in some kind of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy mess of a place.
I think we should discuss this some more at the next boards beers.0 -
I am listening to your argument and tbh, even though it's articulate it's nonsense.
You would have us believe that the alcohol-related problems we have in this country are being over-stated.
I asume then that you are in your late teens?0 -
Just after surfing round and found this thread.
to say i am horrified by some of the statements is an understatement.
johnnyskeleton i have no idea where you get your ideas/info from but saying that ireland doesnt have a drinking problem is ludicrious. Back in 1996, as im sure u know, launched its National Alcohol Policy in an effort to tackle the growth of alcohol abuse and alcohol-relater harm. during the period 1989-2001, ireland has had the highest increase in alcohol consumption among EU countries. this was 7 years ago and the problem has worsened since then. taken from VHI.com
u say that we must prove that Ireland does have a problem with drink. Im pretty sure the advertisements in society and the 'drink responsibly' label on cans work for the case that we do have a poblem. what evidence is there that there isnt??
on the issue of child molestation i think that is ridiculaous arguement. comparing one problem with another is just silly IMO. Im pretty sure if u asked the family of the 100 people that died of liver failure in comparison to the molested child they would not be happy with you.
saying that the rowdyness is the problem and not the alcohol is completly missing the point. alcohol emphasises this rowdyness. i myself have been called a rather conservative guy in normal life but i admit that there have been times in the past where i have had one too many and done things that ive regretted. it was because i had one too many and not because im instinctively rowdy.
i just have no idea how u can say that irish society doesnt have a drinking roblem. and just to put my arguements into perspective, i have recently completed an undergraduate degree in social science specialising in social policy of ireland (health services, housing, immigration etc), so while i dont admit to being all knowing about the topic i have alot of experience in the area.0 -
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I am listening to your argument and tbh, even though it's articulate it's nonsense.
Good argument.You would have us believe that the alcohol-related problems we have in this country are being over-stated.
Overstated by the OP when he says that they are bigger problems than, for example, drugs, organised crime, or especially child abuse. In my view, each of these is a greater problem, and all are, in my view, bad things on balance, whereas alcohol for all the problems, is generally a good thing.
That said, you are picking on only one of my criticisms of the OP's point of view. My main criticisms are that he seems to want to shun all drinkers, condemn them for their revellry, make himself feel superior to drinkers and deny what I would believe to be the more accurate analysis that the majority of Irish people drink responsibily.
Don't forget, this is not an argument about alcohol related problems (although the OP relies on them every time I make a point) it's about whether he should disdain the Irish people for drinking. I do not think so, because for most people alcohol is a good thing.I asume then that you are in your late teens?
That doesn't matter, and you don't really believe that; you just said it to insult me. As I said to Gridlock, if you resort to insults I will report you.0 -
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Just after surfing round and found this thread.
to say i am horrified by some of the statements is an understatement.
johnnyskeleton i have no idea where you get your ideas/info from but saying that ireland doesnt have a drinking problem is ludicrious.
Maybe alcohol makes my mind a lot sharper than yours, but I have this uncanny ability to read other people's posts and don't make assumptions. Where did I deny that there are alcohol related problems in Ireland (I changed your wording despite the humourous image of the Island of Ireland, staggering around and dancing for small change which it conjures up).Back in 1996, as im sure u know, launched its National Alcohol Policy in an effort to tackle the growth of alcohol abuse and alcohol-relater harm. during the period 1989-2001, ireland has had the highest increase in alcohol consumption among EU countries. this was 7 years ago and the problem has worsened since then. taken from VHI.com
u say that we must prove that Ireland does have a problem with drink. Im pretty sure the advertisements in society and the 'drink responsibly' label on cans work for the case that we do have a poblem. what evidence is there that there isnt??
Not relevant, as I am not arguing that there are no problems as regards alcohol abuse and alcohol-related harm. See, for example, all of my posts, but in particular:johnnyskeleton wrote:Just because there are problems arising from drinking, does not mean that drinking is a problem.on the issue of child molestation i think that is ridiculaous arguement. comparing one problem with another is just silly IMO. Im pretty sure if u asked the family of the 100 people that died of liver failure in comparison to the molested child they would not be happy with you.
I did not make such a comparison; OK-Cancel-Apply said that it was his view that Alcohol was the biggest problem in Ireland, I strongly disagreed, the exploitation and abuse suffered (and sadly still ongoing) by children at the hands of adults is a much more serious problem than alcohol. And I'd glady say that those 100 people were the author's of their own misfortune; while I have sympathy for all persons, I think the harm visited on one child that has been abused is much worse, and moreover it was forced upon them.saying that the rowdyness is the problem and not the alcohol is completly missing the point. alcohol emphasises this rowdyness. i myself have been called a rather conservative guy in normal life but i admit that there have been times in the past where i have had one too many and done things that ive regretted. it was because i had one too many and not because im instinctively rowdy.
Well knowing yourself to be rowdy when drunk, you should either avoid alcohol or take care when drinking. If you get drunk and act the maggot it is your fault, not the alcohol's fault.i just have no idea how u can say that irish society doesnt have a drinking roblem. and just to put my arguements into perspective, i have recently completed an undergraduate degree in social science specialising in social policy of ireland (health services, housing, immigration etc), so while i dont admit to being all knowing about the topic i have alot of experience in the area.
Here's what I think: you put words in my mouth, you want me to deny alcohol related problems so that you can have your rant and bring out your qualifications (note that a college degree would be considered education rather than experience, even if there was a hands on element). Show me where I said Irish society doesn't have a drinking problem?0 -
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To all posters, this thread is not about me, so criticising me (especially the unfounded criticism and the insults) doesn't answer the OP's question. Is he right to look down on people who drink - I say no.0 -
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johnnyskeleton wrote: »Because he who asserts must prove. Besides, I've presented my statistics and I'm satisfied that they are representative of the situation as it is.
Fine, I will be the one to start a new thread in that particular forum (which is full of guards and paramedics), and ask straight out.johnnyskeleton wrote: »I can't deny my love for cheap claret, but do you honestly think alcohol is a more serious problem than child abuse? I would rather 100 people die of liver failure than have one child molested.
No, you see I don't really care what people do to themselves (i.e. bringing on their own liver failure) - my problem lies with what happens to the rest of us when they are off their faces.
I don't see half as much in the media about child molestation as I do about alcohol related problems. That may be for the sake of privacy for the victims, but still, I do wonder how you seem to be hearing about it all the time.johnnyskeleton wrote: »As I say, it is the rowdyness that is the problem, not the boozed up part. The puking I can live with, much the same as I tolerate dog poo.
What can I say? I think one is the fuel for the other, you do not. As for puking in the street, I still think that's disgusting and avoidable (by not drinking so damn much).johnnyskeleton wrote: »You have created a stereotype in your head and refuse to listen to any other argument. You make judgements about people as a class, not as individuals. That doesn't put you on a par with a racist of the KKK type, but it would put you on a level footing with someone who makes sweeping generalities about races or groups (on the same level, for example, as someone who believes all travellers are criminals).
But what...of another type? On par with the kind of racist who makes sweeping generalisations about race? I see absolutely no reason to bring race into this discussion at all. Not only is it offensive to any victims of actual race hatred or discrimination who might be reading, but it's highly insulting to me. It's the same as just calling someone 'Hitler', or a 'Nazi' in a debate, isn't it? It doesn't make sense either - drinkers are not a race. DrinkING is an activity, and one that serves very little purpose.
It definitely would be racist to say that certain ethnic groups are genetically predisposed to crime, because that's NONSENSE.
And no, I don't stereotype anybody. Everybody is different and unique - that's something I try to preach to others all the time. What I'm concerned about is what happens to those unique individuals when they drink alcohol. To say that substance X will likely cause reaction Y, is not stereotyping. You say you're fine with alcohol, I say you need to look a bit farther than your own nose, and see what the streets are like on a Friday night.johnnyskeleton wrote: »While there is no doubt that Drinkers do not face discrimination, but some racial and ethnic groups do, that is not my point. My point is that I think people try to avoid dividing the world into groups of people and then make unshakable judgements about them.
Any particular reason you capitalised the 'D' of 'Drinkers'? I think YOU are the one trying to form a new group, and divide and categorise people. I think it becomes clearer when you say:johnnyskeleton wrote: »I think that if you met a drunk person you should talk to them and see if they are an interesting person rather than just assume they are an unpleasant drunk. That way you will begin to open your mind a bit more on this issue, and eventually you may come to understand (if not accept) what I'm saying.
If I met a drinker? Like, on the street? If I just happened upon that well-known ethnic group, I should try to get to know him? Are you for real? How would I just 'meet' a Drinker (<-with a capital 'D')? The only context in which I could meet one would be at a pub (and I don't frequent them), or at 3am when I finally get so pissed off with the noise that I go outside to confront somebody. The only other way I could 'meet a drunk and try to get to know him' would be in the middle of the day, and if I did, my first reaction would likely be, "Why is this guy hammered at 2pm?'.
I could take what you said and replace the word 'drunk' with the word 'black', and that would be quite a common plea to racists.0
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