Andy Lee vs. Brian Vera

Running Bing

ODD-JOB wrote: »

Easier said than done , What's in it for Vera ?

It was a dodgy stoppage and Lee was clearly his equal but if Vera really believes he can do that again then a rematch with Lee is his best bet at the moment. What else does he do? If he beats lee again its his ticket to a title fight. He has to prove it was not a fluke. He is one tough fighter though.



What a great fight though from a neutral perspective. Will definately be up there come the end of the year.

ODD-JOB

Ok I see where you're going !
But unfortunately I believe its the US fans who pay the big bucks who decide/influence who gets a shot and who dosent.
That was the first time Andy Lee was seen on Us television, and beating him twice wont prove Vera's quality, it will merely cast more doubt to the credibility of Andy Lee........
Very little is known about Andy Lee in the US , apart from what Manny Stewert has been spouting day in / day out.
Manny is known for over-hyping his fighters, in fact he's quite famous for doing it.

Vera should now be aiming to take the route Andy was on , a few more competitive fights before a title shot.
Kelly Pavlik is tied up with a forthcoming match-up at the moment, and title holders dont tend to fight very often , maybe 2 or 3 times a year only.

Im not a big fan of Pavlik for some reason, if Taylor threw another half a dozen shots in that early round , maybe Pavlik would be back down with the journeymen.

triv88

Lee is to fight Vera again in July.This from the Limerick Reader

Speaking after the contest Andy Lee admitted that Brian Vera "drew me into a fight. It was my own fault. I didn't listen to (trainer) Emanuel (Steward).
"He's a tough guy. He was strong. I thought I could continue, but it's the referee's decision. He hit me too much.''
"He wanted to fight him too much,'' a disappointed Steward said. "He stayed on the inside too much, trying to fight him and he got tagged. It happens. It happened to Billy Conn, too. We're already trying to set up a rematch in July. Andy just made a mistake. He let Vera turn it into a brawl.''

and this from boxingtalk.
"After the bout, promoter Lisa Elovich announced that both Vera’s handlers and Steward had agreed to a July 25 rematch on a Pugnacious Promotions card at Saratoga Springs"

RealJohn

I can decide if I liked that stoppage or not. I don't think Lee was quite finished but to me, he looked like he didn't have the heart for it last night and I think he would have been knocked out later in the round unless he landed a lucky shot that stopped Vera.

Vera looked like he could take those single shots, good as they were, all night and Lee didn't look like he had the heart (or maybe just the awareness) to finish the fight when he had the chances to do it. I think there was at least twice in the 6th that he hurt Vera badly with single shots and then didn't follow up.

I think when Lee tried to finish him in the first after the knockdown, he got hurt by Vera's counters and was wary of getting in to finish him after that. I think Lee thought he's finish the fight with a single shot and that isn't how it turned out. Lee's a young guy. He's had a lot of fights but he's still relatively inexperienced. I think this was a good fight for Lee. He knows what getting hurt is like now but he didn't get knocked out so he can probably fight again soon and he'll come back better after that.

I think it wasn't a good stoppage but it might be the stoppage that makes Lee world champion sometime in the future.

IT Loser

I agree- stoppage now is best. He is only a baby. He's too thin and pasty though. Ref was a bit premature, but Andy is cutting and swelling too easily. John Duddy might have outlasted him there last night- Andy might have had a Wlad Klitschko night last night- considering that he has great skills and a great punch and heart, he will be back. But it shows you just how full of manure Jimmy Magee and the whole Brian Peters outfit are.....Andy is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from the polished article.

JacksonHeightsOwn

not surprised one bit to be honest, i still cant understand all the hype around our irish middleweights, both him and Duddy

walshb

I'm not too sure the stoppage was bad. I think Lee took a hell of a lot of hard shots in that rd and was looking in bad shape. I think because of WHEN the ref stepped in, is what the controversy is about. He could have stepped in 10 secs earlier and it wouldn't have been
seen as premature...

Andy fought IMO a terrific fight. I had him ahead. Lee's stamina was the key here. He was tiring badly in the last 2 rds and that's what gave Vera the opportunity to land
more telling shots... Andy landed the cleaner shots and couldn't miss the guy with the left.
AS Teddy Atlas said, he needed to throw the right hook after the straight left...

An what's the story with the weights?
I thought two fighters had to MAKE the weight
they were fighting at?

Lee was 4lbs lighter than Vera, who was overweight??

This has to tell and should not have been allowed...

Vera did box previously at 168lbs...

Big Ears

It wasn't a title fight so presumely a catchweight was in force .
Lee was 2 lbs under the middleweight limit , Vera was 2lbs over .

sligobhoy67

just back from the Rees fight - you can catch me at ringside in the Celtic shirt!! and I just watched the Lee fight. Without a doubt it was a waaaay premature stoppage - thats not to say he wouldnt have got stopped eventually but I aint got a crystal ball to be sure on that one

walshb

Whatever the legal stance is, Lee's camp should not be allowing Lee
box against men who are not in his division. It's either a middleweight
fight or not, regardless of whether or not a title is on the line. Middle is up
to 160lbs, and Vera was 2lbs over this. This has been happening a lot lately
in boxing. Guys giving away 2-3 lbs either side of the max limit....

Running Bing

walshb wrote: »

I'm not too sure the stoppage was bad. I think Lee took a hell of a lot of hard shots in that rd and was looking in bad shape. I think because of WHEN the ref stepped in, is what the controversy is about. He could have stepped in 10 secs earlier and it wouldn't have been
seen as premature...

Yeah I dont think the ref can be vilified completely.


"Defend yourself at all times", to me Andy was not doing that and that was the crux of the matter. Another ref on another night could have easily let it go on and nobody would bat an eyelid, but I dont think the ref was too out of whack stopping it tbh.

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

Whatever the legal stance is, Lee's camp should not be allowing Lee
box against men who are not in his division. It's either a middleweight
fight or not, regardless of whether or not a title is on the line. Middle is up
to 160lbs, and Vera was 2lbs over this. This has been happening a lot lately
in boxing. Guys giving away 2-3 lbs either side of the max limit....

in the days of 24 hour weigh-ins that we have today a middleweight really isn't a middleweight .

Non title fights are always made at catchweights nowdays to prevent fighters from having to do the dangerous dehydration they do to make weight for title fights .


There was nothing wrong with what Vera did(I assume the guy would have made middleweight if he had to) , Lee was just very light for a middleweight in a non title fight . 158 lbs , you'd expect Light-Middles to weight more for non title fights .



In effect friday night was a Super-Middleweight fight that presumely had a cap on what the fighters could weigh in(I doubt they'd have let Vera come in at a fully-fledged 168) . But with that said Vera only is a middleweight really and as I said I doubt he'd have trouble making the weight .

walshb

I have no problem with the 24hr weigh in. If the limit is 160lbs, then both men should meet this. Lee did, Vera did not. Once they make weight, that's OK, they can do what they like for 24hrs. Vera weighed as a super middle and he fought against a middle. Something is not right there and Vera obviously just went along wth what was proposed. It's up to Lee's team to say what goes and what doesn't go.... I'd like to know the contracted weight
for the bout. Was it a case of a catch weight, or was it simply Vera NOT
making weight and Lee's camp going ahead regardless, accepting the fight??

Big ears, your post implies that you have evidence to say that the bout was
at a catch weight and all was above board etc...

Is this definitive?

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

I have no problem with the 24hr weigh in. If the limit is 160lbs, then both men should meet this. Lee did, Vera did not. Once they make weight, that's OK, they can do what they like for 24hrs. Vera weighed as a super middle and he fought against a middle. Something is not right there and Vera obviously just went along wth what was proposed. It's up to Lee's team to say what goes and what doesn't go.... I'd like to know the contracted weight
for the bout. Was it a case of a catch weight, or was it simply Vera NOT
making weight and Lee's camp going ahead regardless, accepting the fight??

Big ears, your post implies that you have evidence to say that the bout was
at a catch weight and all was above board etc...

Is this definitive?

I am almost certain that the fight was at a catchweight and that it wasn't a case of Vera not making weight . Now I don't have evidence of this exactly but if a fighter didn't make weight it would of been publiscised greatly(ESPN's site would of definitely had something) .

For instance Gavin Rees weighed in 10 oz over the Light-Welterweight limit the next day , I know about that because it was reported by several sources and the same sources would have said if Vera came in overweight .

Also as I said it is common for non title fights at a weight(eg Middleweight in this case) to be above the normal weight(in this case 160)


Also:http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=14919&more=1

No mention of anyone coming in overweight , which they almost certainly would of if someone had .

IT Loser

Big Ears wrote: »

It wasn't a title fight so presumely a catchweight was in force .
Lee was 2 lbs under the middleweight limit , Vera was 2lbs over .

Thats a half a division.:mad: Are these people paying attention? I would expect that from Brian Peters on RTE, not from Manny on ESPN.

And why is Andy cutting so badly.....I think he is drained or something. He needs to fatten up, retain more water and plump his skin out.

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

I am almost certain that the fight was at a catchweight and that it wasn't a case of Vera not making weight . Now I don't have evidence of this exactly but if a fighter didn't make weight it would of been publiscised greatly(ESPN's site would of definitely had something) .

For instance Gavin Rees weighed in 10 oz over the Light-Welterweight limit the next day , I know about that because it was reported by several sources and the same sources would have said if Vera came in overweight .

Also as I said it is common for non title fights at a weight(eg Middleweight in this case) to be above the normal weight(in this case 160)


Also:http://www.eastsideboxing.com/news.php?p=14919&more=1

No mention of anyone coming in overweight , which they almost certainly would of if someone had .

You are right. Had it been a strict fight and Vera didn't make weight, we would have heard something...

Well, IMO, this practice is ludicrous and wrong. Boxing fundamentals is based on weights and this is setting a dangerous precedent, though as you said, it's been going on for a while now....

Vera may have been 7-10lbs heavier on fight night for all we know...

This is dangerous and Lee should not have been subjected to it..

If we were to believe all the crap talk from Manny on how Lee
was the next Ray Robinson, then Manny should have been
doing everthing to ensure Lee's career wasn't jeopadised.
You are meant to protect and bubble wrap talent, not
expose them to potential danger. By danger, I am referring
to men above the weight of your fighter.....

IT Loser

At least Andy can console himself that this was not a regular loss- he lost controversially to a guy with a near identical record and he lost on his feet against a guy who may have been 9 lbs heavier by fight night. Had his man down and all. It was real Purritty vs Klitschko stuff. Hope Andy does what Benn did and stays in America to work this out.

King of Kings

i just watched that stoppage of lee
I'll admit that lee was on teh end of some punishment but the last punch thrown (and connecting!) was lee hit vega.
surely that constitutes being alert and able to defend himself.

IT Loser

King of Kings wrote: »

i just watched that stoppage of lee
I'll admit that lee was on teh end of some punishment but the last punch thrown (and connecting!) was lee hit vega.
surely that constitutes being alert and able to defend himself.

Lees fight was a lot like United vs Liverpool today. Mascherano didn;t deserve to be sent off, but Liverpool were losing anyways (and I am a Pool fan)...ditto Andy. Bad decision by the ref but Andy was cut, exhausted and being nailed too clean too often. Sooner or later, he was going out.

RealJohn

On the weight issue, in mma you're allowed to come in 1 pound over the limit for a non-tital fight. I would have assumed the rule is the same in boxing, so 161 would have been ok but 162 should not have been.

On the other hand, Lee might have done something similar to what Diego Corrales did against Castillo the second time: accepted that Vera didn't make weight and took more money for the fight. If this was the case, Lee (and his team) have only themselves to blame. Like has been said already, Vera was probably about 170 (maybe more) by the time he stepped in the ring. He was too big for Lee.

Running Bing

RealJohn wrote: »

On the weight issue, in mma you're allowed to come in 1 pound over the limit for a non-tital fight. I would have assumed the rule is the same in boxing, so 161 would have been ok but 162 should not have been.

On the other hand, Lee might have done something similar to what Diego Corrales did against Castillo the second time: accepted that Vera didn't make weight and took more money for the fight. If this was the case, Lee (and his team) have only themselves to blame. Like has been said already, Vera was probably about 170 (maybe more) by the time he stepped in the ring. He was too big for Lee.

Yes but we're talking about an actual real sport here.

c1979

sometimes losing can make you a better fighter

Big Ears

RealJohn wrote: »

On the weight issue, in mma you're allowed to come in 1 pound over the limit for a non-tital fight. I would have assumed the rule is the same in boxing, so 161 would have been ok but 162 should not have been.

On the other hand, Lee might have done something similar to what Diego Corrales did against Castillo the second time: accepted that Vera didn't make weight and took more money for the fight. If this was the case, Lee (and his team) have only themselves to blame. Like has been said already, Vera was probably about 170 (maybe more) by the time he stepped in the ring. He was too big for Lee.

It's nothing like MMA and how they do non title fights etc . This was nothing out of the ordinary , Vera made weight fine(whatever that was) .

ODD-JOB

OK ...... onto a rematch
what is the weight going to be for that fight ?

Andy could do with bulking up a bit. maybe he should work on his strength for a while before he gets right into his training programme.
It is 3/4 months away isnt it ?
I cant understand why Andy didnt turn up heavier if he was allowed.
He does seem to have a ectomorph build though ??? It appears that he didnt have to work to make the weight limit, which is not a good sign

Anybody else think he may have been more suited to light-middle ?

nacho libre

ODD-JOB wrote: »

OK ...... onto a rematch
what is the weight going to be for that fight ?

Andy could do with bulking up a bit. maybe he should work on his strength for a while before he gets right into his training programme.
It is 3/4 months away isnt it ?
I cant understand why Andy didnt turn up heavier if he was allowed.
He does seem to have a ectomorph build though ??? It appears that he didnt have to work to make the weight limit, which is not a good sign

Anybody else think he may have been more suited to light-middle ?

Before the fight started i thought he was too thin and pasty. He definitely should drop to light-middle if he is unable to bulk up.
Otherwise he'll beaten again by someone who'll just boss him from the inside.
He is the most talented of the trio we have but he's definitely the weakest, and right now he would lose to Duddy and Macklin because of it.

sligobhoy67

nacho libre wrote: »

Before the fight started i thought he was too thin and pasty. He definitely should drop to light-middle if he is unable to bulk up.
Otherwise he'll beaten again by someone who'll just boss him from the inside.
He is the most talented of the trio we have but he's definitely the weakest, and right now he would lose to Duddy and Macklin because of it.

poncing around, smiling and waving to the crowd prefight didnt instill me with a the confidence that that was a man ready to tare someone a new hole!

Chicky

ODD-JOB wrote: »

OK ...... onto a rematch
what is the weight going to be for that fight ?

Andy could do with bulking up a bit. maybe he should work on his strength for a while before he gets right into his training programme.
It is 3/4 months away isnt it ?
I cant understand why Andy didnt turn up heavier if he was allowed.
He does seem to have a ectomorph build though ??? It appears that he didnt have to work to make the weight limit, which is not a good sign

Anybody else think he may have been more suited to light-middle ?

Yeah rematch on the cards for 4 months time. Altho with the cut eyes he's banned from fighting for 6 weeks but if he can rest for some of that it'll do him the world of good. The right eye would be a concern that it keeps opening as the scar tissue isn't getting ample time to heal - so hopefully that'll heal up with the break.

As for the weight he was always a skinny kid - but middle was always in the back of his head so can't see him going to light middle

Chicky

ODD-JOB wrote: »

Yeah it was after the stoppage , but it just goes to show Lee's condition.
he's a warrior alright, he was willing to punch till he dropped.
But Lee's head was gone , he wasnt all there , and was en route to the canvas for sure imo. ...

Warrior is right along with stubborn! Ok yeah the head was going from side to side - after a massive 149 out of 197 punches to the head

Slightly off topic, Lee's last punch must have hurt Vera all the same - just looking back Vera did stumble and stops for 2/3 seconds after it , after the stoppage , thinking the ref was giving a standing count i reckon

ODD-JOB

Havent seen a standing count in quite some time !!

Anyway , Super-welter is the place to be in my opinion.
I think fighting somebody like Karmazin would be a really high profile fight for Andy.
Roman K. is a big name , but he's total pants if you want my opinion.
Andy could and should beat him.
Then theres a heap of great welters who should be moving up in time.

It is a very exciting division and will be for years to come.

Ideally he should be working pretty hard to come in at the top weight allowed in a particular division ,then piling on poundage over the next 24 hours. it's not happening at middleweight for him, I don't think.